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I’m remodeling a 20 year old house and am looking to install 3/4″ oak in the living room, 12’x18′. The room is at ground level with an unfinished basement below. Should I be concerned about abnormal expansion and contraction at all. I’ve heard some say to put felt paper down first, why? I’ve set a lot of tile but have not touched hardwood. Any advice is welcome. I’m writing from central Iowa where we get wet and dry seasons.
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Lance, you are on the web page of an excellent mag for just your question. Check back issues for hardwood floor installation articles. The asphalt saturated felt keeps the moisture in your basement from penetrating the bottom "unfinished" side of the flooring and cause that unexpected and unwanted swelling. Plus leave a good 1/2" gap around the edge of your floor at the wall so to allow for normal swell due to higher humidity. Good luck.
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Hi Lance,
I have laid several 3/4" oak floors in Wisconsin;
some were milled from trees on site, t&g'd and
screwed/plugged. Your two main factors in
expansion/contraction are going to be width of the
boards and moisture content. If they are wide,
they will move a lot. Have your stock checked with
a moisture meter if you are not sure they are dry,
especially if not kiln dried or well seasoned. The
felt is also supposed to help stop squeeks,
although most squeeks are caused by the edges of
the flooring rather than the bottoms. It offers a
little more "give" between joints in subfloor,
uneven surfaces from nails, etc. It certainly
doesn't add much in time/materials to install and
probably can't hurt anything.
Good
*All good advice. Some also use red rosin paper. Bring the wood into your house, allow it to acclimate for a few weeks before starting the installation. Leave it bundled so the boards don't start to "wander."If you can wait until winter, the lower winter humidity may help as well. Snug the boards tight prior to nailing them off. Boards that are closer to quartersawn will move less than flatsawn. Some installers mix them up to ensure several flatsawn boards are not side by side, resulting in a cumulative gap.Roughly lay out a few row of boards at a time to ensure staggered seams and pleasing grain patterns. Nail then off, then lay out a few more rows. Gives both your back and your brain a needed break.Have fun!
*I had about 900 sq feet of red oak select 2 1/4" wide 3/4" T&G installed today. The guy used 15# felt. I asked him "why not rosin paper" - he pulled out a set of installation instructions from the "Hardwood Flooring Manufacturers Association" (or something like that) and showed me where they recommended using the 15# felt.I was impressed that at least he was associated with such an organization, and aparently even did a little reading on his trade - that's all he does, hardwood floors.He thought that you get a tighter floor if you install the stock as dry as possible??? Which is what he did. It sure did look nice when they were done - even without the finish on it yet. They will do that later in the building process. He is going to use 3 coats of oil modified polyurethane over the stain. Something I found interesting when I first moved here - some builders install the hardwood before drywall!How about this question - Are air floor nailers or manual nailers better? It would seem to me that the manual nailers would push it up tighter - what do you think?
*I have not used an air nailer for oak flooring, but the angled type that you smack with a hammer really tightens it up nice. Can be a tiring day. The advice on letting the wood acclimate to the room is dead on, and extremely important.Scott**
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Just the other day, I read an article clip on the issue of Air vs. manual cleat/nail guns. The article was very clear that the manual guns produced a tighter floor. Not sure what magazine, received it from a profesional installer.
Thinking of doing a prefinished floor. I don't want to have to hassle with sanding and finishing, any opinions!
*My opinion is if you want a flat floor, you'll sand it. The finishing is not difficult. A lot of people worry about sanding between coats, but it's really a pretty quick scuffing. How flat and smooth is the subfloor?
*Re: prefinished flooring. I'm adding a lot of oak flooring to my home. What I add depends on where it's going. If I simply can't put an area out of commission without moving out (a hallway) , it gets pre-finished flooring. I'll tolerate the extra cost and the bevel corners since it's a lot better than carpeting.If it's an area that I can close off then it gets unfinished flooring.Can't beat that suface.As for air vs. manual nailers, air is the only way to go. Life is just too short to not use an air gun.Carlos (who is halfway through installing about 4,00 sf of the stuff).
*Mad Dog; The subfloor is in very good shape. It was installed with 3/4" t&g plywood with 2-1/2" screws every 4-6". The surface is very smooth and has no waves.Carlos;I agree, 4,000 is a bit much for old school. I also agree with your statement on finishing. I also llike the natural apperance, of the product. I've installed a pine plank floor made from 2x6's. The floor was georgeous, if you llike pure nature. Its held up very well, 8 years, considering they have two dogs in the house.
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Q: Why do you think wood is better than carpeting? I agree with you, and I'm surprised more people don't feel that way. What about bedrooms, bathrooms?
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Andrew--I just like the feel of a nice wooden floor under foot. For about 1/3 more than what good carpeting costs (once they've finihsed upselling you on upgraded padding, etc.) I find that I can install even pre-finished hardwood IF I do the job myself. At about $3.50 a sq foot for Bruce 3/4" flooring it comes to about $30 a square yard. And it will outlast the carpet. Finally, when the day comes to sell this house I feel I'll get my money out of the hardwood while the carpet will have essentially no value whatsoever.
As for bedrooms, I deal with that with loose laid area rugs. I don't put hardwood in bathrooms or kitchens. I just think that kitchens take too much abuse for hardwood. Its become trendy to put hardwood in kitchens, but I just think that its the wrong material in there.
*Carlos - I couldn't agree with you more. A high grade of carpet is more expensive than hardwood, without upgrades.Have you used Brue floor much? Are the horror stories I've heard true?What do you think about tile on the kitchen floor? It's as durable as it gets and it's maintenace free.
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What horror stories have you heard? I put the Bruce down in my house a couple of years ago, and so far it is great.
Rich Beckman
*Andrew, hasn't Julian taught you yet that it's much easier to wipe up spills on hardwood than on carpet?Just wait until he starts "tag teaming" with the new arrival...you may wish you had a floor drain! Personally, I prefer hardwood throughout the house. Tile in baths. I put tile in my kids' bath and hardwood in my bath. Area/oriental rugs as needed. Can get pricey, though...
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Rich - What I hear is that it's difficult to work with. Perhaps it's the oppionion of a few retailers/installers.
*Lance,You must be pretty serious about these floors with the screw pattern you described. I was wondering how you drove the screws.Dogxxx
*Lance--I can't say that I'm the world's flooring expert, but I haven't had any problems with the Bruce flooring that weren't my fault. Like air driving a staple through the finished surface instead of the side because I didn't have the gun aligned properly. After the fun I had taking tha piece out I will vouch for the strength of the air driven staples.Tile is what I have in my kitchen floor. Its water proof and given the abuse a kitchen takes--three teenagers, two dogs, not to mention me, I can't imagine trying to keep wood looking good in there. I'd put vinyl in a kithcen before I put hardwood down.Carlos
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The only difficulty I had was some pieces that weren't straight and needed to be pried into position before nailing. I put a nail into the subfloor to push against.
Rich Beckman
*Not so much Julian as that *&%^(*& CAT! Well, there were those potty training missteps. Floor drain, hmmm.....I laugh when people complain about the dust bunnies and such you get with hardwood. What, you'd rather have all that stuff ground into the carpet? But w/w was all the rage for years, preserving many an old hardwood floor.
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Lance--I have to say, I haven't had any problems with the Bruce flooring. Like all per-finished flooring you have to be careful with the finish during the installation, but that's about it.
Tile is what I have in kitchens and bathrooms. I don't want to have to worry abut the floor in an area that sees a lot of moisture and abuse--two dogs, three teenagers, not to mention me.
Actually, I'd put vinyl in a kitchen before I put hardwood down. I might consider some of the new laminate floorings in the kitchen as well, if I ever have to do it again.
Carlos
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I always figured the reason carpeting was so popular in the 50s and 60s was the difficulty keeping hardwood lookin' good in those days. They probably didn't have the finishs we have today, so Ma had to clean and wax regularly. What a pain in the neck compared to "this nice soft carpeting she could just vacum, and it hides the dirt so well!"
When we built our house our youngsters (and me) had a lot of allergy problems, so we put hardwood throughout. I am really glad we did. You just don't see it that often. It is one way to set your house apart. It does take some maintanance though. - jb
*It was always my understanding that prior to wall to wall carpeting, practically everyone had hardwood floors. When the wall to wall came out, it was expensive and quickly became a status symbol. Being a status symbol more and more people wanted to cover up their "common" hardwood floor with the "elite" carpet. Of course, it didn't take more than a second or two for builders to realize that they could skip the hardwood and just put down that elite carpet. Of course, after awhile the pendulum swung back (especially when the true costs of each became more obvious) and the hardwood gained more status than it ever had before.Rich Beckman
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Mad Dog, I did not screw the sub floor, It's existing. Prior home owners must have done it. Maybe they where going to put down tile and change plans? Got me, but it's stuck well.
*Carlos, Glad to hear you have two good floors. I myself am not an expert, maybe good at asking for opinions.Did put the tile down in you kitchen?It's not that I have anything against "Bruce" products, never worked with them. it's only what I've heard.Lance
*Lance-no the tile was in the kitchen when I bought it. Tells you a lot about the benefits of a good subfloor. Much of my first floor has a mud set slate floor. 30 years old, not a crack. Tile in the kitchen is glazed Italian (?) terra cotta tile. It has two cracks (in the tile, the grout lines are fine). Wouldn't have happened if they had put down a backer board. But it's in good enough shape that I can live with it.Carlos
*Carlos - WOW, sounds like somebody knew what they where doing. I would agree it's hard to beat a good mud set floor. I just put 12X12 Italian Granite on my kitchen counters.Are you located in a widley changing climate like Iowa?Lance
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Today I had a couple of engineers from Spacepak (hi-velocity air conditioning/heating company, like Unico) over. When they walked in the house their first comment was "Whoa, nice floors!"
Oak must be 85% of the flooring put down these days. Neither had seen brazilian cherry before. You're right about the maintenance, it's required regularly, at least it's quick.
*"brazillian cherry", is it planks, or t+g strips, or what? What color does it turn out to be? Can you post a picture? - jb
*jb,The flooring has that light reddish-brown hue to it, after exposure to sunlight it does darken a bit. Right now it's maybe a burgundy-reddish-brown? Hard to describe. If I try to hard it may sound like I'm describing a wine-tasting..."aromatically smooth, with just a hint of pretension...".I'll dig around for a pic. May be a few days, I'll see what I can find. If not, I'll snap one and post then.BTW, it's 3" strips, t&g.Mongo
*Brazillian Cherry? I just bought Brazillian Maple. It too is beatiful, and the metric sizes make it 3" t&g which makes installing easier.
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Not in Iowa, but in the MD suburbs of DC. Or, as we're fond of describing it, northern charm and southern efficiency, so we do see a lot of termperature changes, but even greater humidity changes. Forced air heat and 85% humidity. Let's hear it for air conditioning.
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I've used both manual nailers and air nailers. No noticable difference in the installation, and air was MUCH more comfortable.
Never had a problem with Bruce pre-finished either, although I prefer to finish it myself - no big deal, much nicer looking.
Have done both tile and oak in a kitchen. If I had to choose one for my own use, it would be oak. Warmer looking.
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I'm remodeling a 20 year old house and am looking to install 3/4" oak in the living room, 12'x18'. The room is at ground level with an unfinished basement below. Should I be concerned about abnormal expansion and contraction at all. I've heard some say to put felt paper down first, why? I've set a lot of tile but have not touched hardwood. Any advice is welcome. I'm writing from central Iowa where we get wet and dry seasons.
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I realize this post is a little outdated, but here goes,
Whatsa difference/pluses between u-head, l-head, and t-head nails?
Also, I realize that running it perpendicular to joists is ideal (you can hit the joist), but does it really matter? See, I'm trying to float some wavy spots (I know, sounds jacklegg to me too) as well as the plywood edges that are not tongue/groove and therefore prone to squeakiness.
ALSO (one last item), how long, or short rather, is an acceptable acclimation period--A few days okay?
All this may sound fishey, I'd perfer to go by the book, but we gotta move into the sucker yesterday (which the wife keeps reminding me) and need to cut some corners. Any other recommendations?
Clay