We are in the planning process for a new house in the northern Rocky Mts. region and were specing James Hardie products (Hardie Plank and shingles). I heard a disturbing report that an application of Hardie Plank recently used the this area is shrinking and exposing the tyvek under it. Previously I had heard very good comments on this material, but I am obviously concerned. Any input would be appreciated.
Thanks
Replies
I'd bet not.
How is something made of cement going to shrink?
Joe H
I don't know how some of this stuff gets started. I was hanging F/C on a house a couple of years ago and one of the customers neighbors informed him that it was prone to rot.
Of course, I've got my fingers crossed, but so far, so good! :-)
Hope no rot. Just my luck, shrinking rotting siding on my not even finished house.
That's a pisser, as I also insulated it with soggy cellulose.
Joe H
"I don't know how some of this stuff gets started."
Georgia Pacific maybe? :0)
Even if FC COULD shrink, if it shrunk enough to expose the house wrap, then methinks it was installed incorrectly.
You got it right.
Mike - Foxboro
I just did a house with hardiplank and eventually got the porter cable shears..They worked fine and can cut a gentle curve around arch windows.We never cut from the back side but i did compensate by rolling the cutter alil bit to reduce the beveling.
The thing that gives me the willys alil bit is that its a laminate of it seems 3 pcs.Nail to close to the edge or cutting lil pc and u'll see it come aprt.Why is something 5/16" laminated? Id figured they just pour it in a mold.
I saw where on an area that didnt get painted soon enuf and was exposed to some runoff from a unflashed upper deck a fine alligatoring of either the factory primer or finish.
>> Why is something 5/16" laminated? I'd figured they just pour it in a mold.My guess is they do pour it in a mold, but then compress it. You see the same thing in particle board and MDF. The front and back surfaces come out a little higher density then the interior, and the difference in density is enough to affect how it breaks under stress.This may also explain why you can only get it in 12 foot lengths.
I doubt that story, it sound like crap. FC is still a new product to a lot of people and they tend to fear their "unknown". The only complaint I had with FC is the dust when cutting it and that was solved with dustless shears. If you have any concerns, call up James Hardie and ask for their rep in your area and ask for the contact info for their installation expert (If you are doing it yourself, they will come out and give you a tutorial on everything you need/want to know about FC. The rep in your area should be able to give you some houses to look at that have had it on for years, and you can talk to those home owners.
Also, do a search through back threads in this forum, I think you'll find that there are very few who do not like FC.
Thanks for your reply. It confirms my previous research on the product. I do intend to run down the source of this complaint through the contractor who told me about it. If there is any problem I suspect it's the installation.
I'm betting that you are going to discover that this contractor is one of those aforementioned people who are "afraid of the unknown". He probably installs Vinyl siding for a living and doesn't want to have to try to learn how to handle that "newfangled stuff".
I still remember a couple of decades ago when I was selling electronics for a living. Compact disks were still a pretty new technology. A customer told me that he would never buy one of those worthless cd players because "the disks wear out so fast. you play them ten or twelve times and there's no sound anymore." I just acted like I believed him, sold him his turntable, and waited 'til he was gone before I had a good laugh.
The only way to combat a superior product is to try to use lies and subterfuge in order to try to undermine it's perceived character. Politicians have been doing that for years with great success.
Well said.
I am planning on installing some f/c sideing and the dust concerns me. What kind of shears can be used to cut it? How good do the cuts come out looking?
I have the steelhead shears from snapper/pacific tool. They cut just like the metal cutting shears, they cut out about a 1/8 strip. They suggest cutting with the face down because it slightly bevels the cut side but you really cannot notice the slight bevel. I was a little skeptical about how easily the shears would cut the FC since it is so hard but they cut very easily. I believe snapper was the one that came up with the shear idea and now there are also porter cable and kett shears too. I like the snapper because it is a milwaukee drill motor that powers the shear head and also the blades are reversable.
If you get in touch with a hardie rep for your area, they will almost certainly have shears that you could try out. I first saw them used at a JLC Live show. Also in my area they have hardie installation experts that will go to your job site and do a demo of installation and show you all the tools that you can use with hardie. They won't have the pneumatic slice cutter or manuel slicer but those are $1200 and $550 respectly.
Also I know makita makes a fc circ that hooks to a vac and hitachi has something similar but I've heard those don't work the greatest. One thing I really like about the shears is they are the size of a corded 1/2 drill and you can take them up on pump jacks.
http://www.snappershear.com/Steelhead/index.htm
Edited 8/11/2005 4:24 pm ET by DDay
I worked on a house several years ago with this stuff and what a mess(dust). If your not doing it yourself you won't have this problem. Also make sure you use stainless nails. If I was a betting man I would put my money on cedar on what will look better in 20 years.
I replaced 20-year old cedar with HP, and believe me, the cedar was not pretty. Yes, hardie makes dust when its cut - a small nusiance compared to the benefits. The comment about shrinkage at the top post is just silly. In our climate of extreme sun, UV, and -10F winters, the HP hasn't shrunk or split.
It took a little time for some tool manufacturers to come up with a solution to the dust from hardie but now there are plenty of dustless methods to cut the stuff. I own the shears and the cut completely dustless and as quick as a circ, although you cannot gang cut with the shears. I know there are snapper shears, pc ones and kett, plus snapper/pacific tool also make the manuel and pneumatic cut shears. Check out the link below, I've seen the pneumatic one and that works very well but its pricey, the shears are the best bet unless your doing a lot of FC.
http://www.snappershear.com/catalog.htm
cedar sucks- some of it is cracked and warped when you get it- it also is brittle. it rots. warps, splits, etc etc etc . use cedar if you have enought time in your life to replace it and paint it and paint it and paint it. or have enough money to pay someone.-----------
there are lots of myths on hardie.
one (wood) installer told me - its too new - only been out 2 years??????????????????????
truth is its been out a long long timeEdited 8/11/2005 5:09 pm ET by edwardh1
Edited 8/11/2005 5:10 pm ET by edwardh1
Hardie as an Australian company has been around a long while i was using hardie plank in Melbourne Australia in the early 80s
Hardie ........... has been around a long while
Yes, they were killing their workers and anyone working with their products with mesothelioma and asbestosis from the 1920s right up to 1968.
Now they're fighting hard to make sure they pay the minimum compensation possible -- even moved their corporate HQ to Holland to help minimise the successful claims.
Great Aussie company -- you must be real proud of them.
IanDG
My opinion of James Hardie as a company that is moraly bankrupt is probably the same as yours they continued to put asbestos in their products till as far as I know the late seventies and continued to sell existing stock with asbestos till the early eihties most Australians are appalled at this behavior and at what this company is still trying to dodge te issues of compensation to this day.
many companies that "make' cedar wood probably do the same as far as treating workers poorly.
maybe we shouldcall it Fibercement plank but Hardie plank seems to have stuck.actually asbestos in transite panels (house shingles)" really lasts a long time, if worked wet or in non friable ways not too bad
Here's an excerpt from this site giving a timeline of awareness of the dangers:-
As early as 1898 the Chief Inspector of Factories of the United Kingdom reported to the Parliament in his Annual Report about the "evil effects of asbestos dust". He reported the "sharp, glass like nature of the particles" when allowed to remain in the air in any quantity, "have been found to be injurious, as might have been expected" (Report of the Select Committee 1994).
In 1906 a British Parliamentary Commission confirmed the first cases of asbestos deaths in factories in Britain and recommended better ventilation and other safety measures.
In 1918 an American insurance company produced a study showing premature deaths in the asbestos industry in the United States and in 1926 the Massachusetts Industrial Accidents Board processed the first successful compensation claim by a sick asbestos worker.
Asbestos producer nations have blocked the addition of chrysotile (white) asbestos to the UN list of highly dangerous substances that cannot be exported to developing countries without their knowledge and agreement and Canada is exporting it to India where the asbestos industry is running a propaganda campaign to convince people of its safety. The same campaign that they ran in UK in the late 60's -- all the while knowing that chrysotile fibre causes mesothelioma just as crocidolite fibre [blue asbestos] does.
Edward,
actually asbestos in transite panels (house shingles)" really lasts a long time, if worked wet or in non friable ways not too bad
This isn't so -- the 'leave it alone and it's safe' is asbestos industry BS. Tests have shown the number of fibres per cubic yard of air within 2 feet of undisturbed asbestos cement siding -- and shingles -- is up to 50 times normal. Just one fibre lodged in your lung can trigger mesothelioma up to 50 years later.
IanDG
"Just one fibre lodged in your lung can trigger mesothelioma up to 50 years later."That's why the _tens of millions_ of kids who went to school during the '40s, '50s, and '60s in buildings with asbestos ceiling tiles and asbestos insulated pipes are dying of mesothelioma. Right.Like most environmental concerns (lead paint, radon, etc.), the dangers of asbestos exposure were grossly exaggerated, and served to line the pockets of many lawyers, politicians, and organized crime types.Before you post any more misinformation, please educate yourself about the two types of asbestos. One type can cause mesothelioma, but it was only used in a small fraction of the products that contained asbestos. Politicians and their friends in the mob ignored that minor detail when they pushed through regulations that resulted in hundreds of billions in spending for unnecessary remidiation projects
"Just one fibre lodged in your lung can trigger mesothelioma up to 50 years later."
That's why the _tens of millions_ of kids who went to school during the '40s, '50s, and '60s in buildings with asbestos ceiling tiles and asbestos insulated pipes are dying of mesothelioma.
One in every 200 deaths in the UK is now connected with exposure to asbestos and the number is not expected to peak until 2015 at the earliest.
Like most environmental concerns (lead paint, radon, etc.), the dangers of asbestos exposure were grossly exaggerated, and served to line the pockets of many lawyers, politicians, and organized crime types.
Before you make moronic statements like this do some research -- Wittenoom is a good place to start. Obviously you didn't even bother to look at the sites I linked.
Before you post any more misinformation, please educate yourself about the two types of asbestos. One type can cause mesothelioma, but it was only used in a small fraction of the products that contained asbestos.
You've just clearly demonstrated more of your ignorance --
There aren't only two types of asbestos -- chrysotile, amosite, tremolite and crocidolite are different types that can all cause mesothelioma and chrysotile [white] was widely used in a range of construction products from cement sheet to shingles and vinyl/asbestos tiles.
Instead of shilling for the asbestos industry try typing "mesothelioma+chrysotile" into Google and educate yourself.
IanDG
Edited 8/13/2005 3:55 pm ET by IanDG
Hard to believe that
I do not
Easy enough to check -- but you keep your head up your arse. Safer not knowing, eh?
IanDG
I do not understand how the fibers get thru the paint.remov of transite when done wet does not even require a respirator
As I said, check the net for information on the risks from existing asbestos products -- especially regarding increased fibre levels per cubic foot of air in close proximity to even undisturbed siding, shingles, etc.
The asbestos industry is spending millions of dollars in an effort to evade their corporate responsibility and there is a torrent of propaganda, rivalling the tobacco industry at their peak.
IanDG
I am a Building Contractor in the Rocky Mountain area (Montana). We have been please with the performance of the product you mentioned in your post.
Surely any product may have some movement due to thermal expensing and contraction. But as far as gaps exposing the substrate or membrane below we have seen none of these issues. This product seams to be a great choice for paint grade exteriors.
Good luck on your up comming project.
Tom
Working for nothing is not getting any cheaper.
You know a building product is good if it meets the following criteria:
1. It's messy to work with
2. It's awkward to work with.
3. It's a general PIA to work with.
4. It's heavy and unmanageable to handle.
5. It's murder on tools and equipment
6. Despite all of this.... contractors love it.
Hardie passes this test on all accounts...... yer good to go.
One item that I don't think others have covered is that many are installing Hardie in areas that get wet from splash - either near the ground or next to decking - and the house/building does not have gutters - this area will start to grow mold as the Hardie will retain water and start to support mold.
Taking a clue from Notchman's post I suspect that there is some confusion between fiber cement, FC, products and the older fiberboard claps that have been such a disaster.
The later has a notorious history as being sold as a miracle product at dirt cheap prices and reduced labor costs. Ten years later the reports of ghastly failures, and in time lawsuits, were too loud for even the tone deaf manufacturers to ignore. The fiberboard siding curled, shrunk, soaked up water and rotted to the point that I have seen at least one end wall covered in mushrooms. Great for #### farming but not what most people are looking for in siding.
A lot of people go burned. Some contractors were sold a bill of goods about how the stuff was great. When the siding failed the manufacturers claimed for years that the problems were because of improper installation. Some was installed poorly but even meticulous installations were failing. It took a class action lawsuit to legally prove it but this stuff was defective before it was hung. Some contractors got caught in the middle between the HOs and the manufacturers. Some less grounded contractors ran. Some went broke.
HOs got screwed. Settlements lagged. Some houses rotted to the point of being uneconomical to reside and rehabilitate while waiting for the manufacturers to admit a problem and take responsibility. There was a massive legal battle. Lots of suffering all around.
Many HOs now feel they can't look a siding contractor in the face without seeing a crook who wants to install glorified cereal boxes on their family home. Someone who will have the check cashed and be out-of-state before the paint is dry.
Contractors are leery about 'miracle' products offered by manufacturers. They see their reputations and living on the line while the well-heeled corporations, with stables of demonic lawyers, are set up to deny any responsibility for defective products thay are foisting upon the hard-working folks.
Everyone is gun-shy. Even a decade later feelings are tender and rumors abound. IMHO fiber cement products have been caught in the backblast. As far as I can tell, I keep an eye on a lot of the construction industry and products but I work as an electrician, FC products, particularly the Hardie and name brand products have been shown to be entirely reliable. If not perfect.
Worse I have heard is that they can crack if your son plays basketball against the side of the garage clapped in FC. OK it breaks if you beat it hard enough. It doesn't seem to be what I would characterize as fragile. Takes a considerable amount of abuse without damage.
Other complaint I have heard is that if the siding stays wet algae and moss can grow on it. People have taken the moisture resistance of FC as meaning that moss won't grow. Virtually anything that gets and stays wet will grow moss. Why should FC claps be any different? Simple enough to scrub the algae off. If anything FC products seem more resistant to actual damage from this sort of thing than traditional wood claps. Miles ahead of the fiberboard claps that turn to mush.
Good post 4lorn1.
The only thing I can add to that dissertation is if you paint it up well it is the most resistant product to the elements except for brick.
I have used it for the intent purpose of defying water and it is has proven quite capable.
ANDYSZ2I MAY DISAGREE WITH WHAT YOUR SAYING BUT I WILL DEFEND TO THE DEATH YOUR RIGHT TO SAY IT.
Remodeler/Punchout
I agree, the caricaturists of this product make it most appealing as a painted surface.
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However, as 4Lor1 mentioned: to some degree its wood like appearance may come off as a women of the night trying to appear like a choir girl.
TomWorking for nothing is not getting any cheaper.
Good post. One thing I might add. The typical lap for F/C is 1 1/4" so for it to shrink enough to expose the housewrap means someone is full of BS or they don't know how to install it.
BTW, I use the Certainteed brand which, from my own experience and humble opinion, is a better, more realistic-looking plank than Hardy. Same price, same warrantee, same options on prestained, etc.
One of my gripes about the FC available is the wood-grain effect they stamp into it. Its like a street thug wearing a choir boy smile. So afraid of looking like a fake they overcompensate. Real wood has little if any detectable grain once milled and painted. The pressed in grain available, unless you want to pay through the nose for a special order, screams fake. That the raised grain also collects dust and crud, likely multiplying the tendency to grow moss, doesn't make it any more desirable in my eyes.I just wish I could find someone locally who would sell the flat, ungrained, stuff for the same price as the grained.
I think the f/c is around to stay, have done houses that are 6-7 years old with the stuff and it still looks great. It seems to really hold paint well. As for cutting you can get a Hitachi (I think) saw with a dust shroud that goes to a auto vac it does a good job keeping dust down. On a recent episode of TOH Tom had one of the shears, guillotine type does a nice job but leaves the edge rough. Which as they installed it was what they wanted for a proper 1/8" gap filled with caulk. I am doing a remodel of my own here soon and the house is 3/4 brick the back is vinyl yuck I will replace it with F/C.
Tilesetters have been using Hardi backer for quite a few years as a backer board ( much more manageable than some other cement board products) Dad is a second gen tile guy and rarely uses a hawk and trowel for mud floating any more.Point is... Proven product that stands up great in a shower's wet environment for years
(although slightly diferent conditions than exterior)Me and the crew board and batten sided two 2500 sqft homes with the stuff (cedar battens)and one 1000 sqft w/lap siding in the last three years and no call backs yet.Me personally, I like the stuff I cut the board twice and its still too short ! ! !