O.K. , now that I have your attention,
Recently finished approx. 12,000 sq. ‘ of walnut floor in a 6+mil.$ home. Sub-trade says “its done”.
I’m saying, “No, I don’t think so, its not good enough”
Here are the issues
1) He used water base finish, only 2 coats. The finish is “patchy” with the grain texture showing in spots.
2) The butt joints seem to have swollen, no longer flush and are accentuated.
3) Some small gaps partially filled with finish.
A buff, tack and another coat may solve some of the problems, but, what I’m wondering is, how many coats do you normally use? I thought three, with water base. Also, at this point is it possible to go to an oil based finish? And with the butt joints, is it possible that the wood sucked in the finish through the end grain, causing it to swell?
All in all, its not a BAD job, just not up to the standards for a house of this caliber and, dare I say, huge budget. Money is not a factor, quality has always been the priority. There are no excuses, no compromises.
So, what do I do now and what would you guys have done, given that “moneys no object”?
Thanks Guys
Oh, and Gals
Replies
Shoulda been oil finish to begin with, ESP w/Walnut.
Sand it off is what I'd do. WB finish does not really help the beauty of walnut as an oil does. Proven over and over to me. And no, no oil over the wb.
OUCH!!!
That was my worst fear, I suspected as much. The Project Manager developed the spec. because if was me, I would have insisted on an oil base to begin with.
Any thoughts on the butt joints?
ThanksIf you didn't have time to do it right the first time, how come you've got time to do it over again?
Thoughts? Hell yeah, they swelled.
Iffin ya use a WB finish, I always , always, wet the wood and raise the grain, then finish sand. Floors, furniture, Guitars, ANYTHING...
Any good finisher follows that practice. Unless he/she is a "painter".
I sort of agree, having used a lot of water-based finishes. But rather than wet the wood and sand, I simply apply the first coat(s), let them dry, and then sand.
I initially had tried your method, and discovered that no matter how hard I worked, there would be areas that still went proud and bristly.
Besides, most of the WB stuff takes a LOT of coats to build up a finish. Doing the trim on my house, it typically took three or four coats before I started to see a gloss on the oak.
Edited 7/26/2007 10:24 am by JohnD1
Thanks, John.
This may be good news, my guy has only 2 coats on now, so, for him to sand and start building finish is pretty normal for you, yes?If you didn't have time to do it right the first time, how come you've got time to do it over again?
Thanks Sphere, even though all your news is BAD. Can't you give me any good news?
Not having done much in the way of water base finishes, I was unaware of wetting the floor before final sanding. Do you wet it, let it dry (how long) and then sand? Also, how many coats of finish do you usually apply? Is there a large range in price and quality of water base finishes?
I'm meeting with the flooring guy today, not fun.If you didn't have time to do it right the first time, how come you've got time to do it over again?
DAMMM.just lost a post.
Anyway, I don't do floors for a living, just general woodworking and such.
Let it dry till it is dry, don't flood anything just wet the surface( may not have to now, the finish did that already).
I like oil based for walnut, it shows the grain a lot better.
Can't advise on what or how many coats of what, too many variables...Sheen desired, product applied,method of app., porosity of species, all enter into it.
Good luck, and hope ya can make it right.
<Also, how many coats of finish do you usually apply?>
Apply a third coat following steps 4 through 6 above.
For added protection, more coats may be applied, but sand prior to final coat only.
See http://www.minwax.com/products/floors/floor-poly-direct.cfm
I also am NOT a professional floor finisher. And, although I used water-based finishes on the oak trim, I used solvent-based urethane on my floors. That was 15 years ago, and at that time it was clear that solvent-based materials were much more durable that water-based. It may have changed by now; there certainly have been great advances in water-based materials.
Edited 7/26/2007 10:50 am by JohnD1
"I'm saying, 'No, I don't think so, its not good enough'"
Pay the fellow for the work he was contracted to do. Decide what work you want done. Let the fellow bid the new job.
---
As the workman, I would walk rather than bid.
Exactly.
If you wanted a certain type of finish it's up to you to spell that out up front or you'll get a run of the mill finish that they use in track homes, apartments, unkle joes guest bedroom, and the nick-nack store down the street. When you're building a custom home with higher than normal quality it's up to you to know what to specify or you've just purchased a run of the mill floor. Period.
Beer was created so carpenters wouldn't rule the world.
Eddie, don't you do finishing? Are you out there?
karp,
I dislike water based finishes.. They tend to make walnut look washed out.. I prefer shellac.. shellac really makes the colors pop and show the grain to it's best advantage. Plus it's insanely fast to do, four hours should get most floors to a move the furniture in stage.
If someone makes a mistake it's insanely easy to fix shellac.. Shellac happens to be far more durable than most finishes. plus the smell of shellac is gone quickly, unlike most water borne finishes..
Finally shellac is extremely green.. safe for children to eat (once dried) and renewable.. to see what three fast coats (Total time two hours) of shellac look like on a quick and dirty job look at 86666.1
Edited 7/26/2007 12:09 pm ET by frenchy
Frenchy
Your floor looks great, one question. How well does shellac stand up to water spills? I thought water marks were a problem when using shellac. I also noticed in that thread that some are sealing with shellac and then applying water based finish on top. IYO what are the advantages to this method.
Not that this will help me with my current problem, but if I have to become an expert in floor finishes, I might as well learn as much as possible.If you didn't have time to do it right the first time, how come you've got time to do it over again?
Karp,
Water if spilt and wiped up is no problem. If left in place for hours it will turn white but a little denatuired alcohol will quickly remove the finish.. then new shellac can be slopped on. It will melt itself into the old and leave a seamless repair.
This is something that even a housewife might do.. No sanding, quick results, and darn hard to make a mistake that can't be repaired quickly..
As far as durability if you keep reading you'll discover a picture of the gouge my 150 pound new Foundland dog made in the wood. look carefully the shellac is still in place even with that deep of gouge!
It's a great selling point as well. Fine antiques are usually shellaced as part of their restoration.. Shellac has been around for thousands of years and only recently due to some extremely questionable sales and marketing by chemical companies not been the finish of choice for floors..
It's a case where the old is better than it's modern replacements..
I'll try to tell you the rest of the story as well.. three things affect shellac. Water, alcohol, and amonia. if shellac is damaged by any of those three the solution is to remove the old finish with some denatured alcohol, (you can use single malt scotch if you have the budget but denatured alcohol is cheap, you just can't drink it because it has 2% of something in it to make it undrinkable) I wiped off the shellac from my 70 year old piano and it comes off easily.
Then brush, wipe, mop, pour, or whatever some thinned out shellac on the floor and it will dry in 15 minutes (first coat) sand off the nubs that are raised. about a second to a second and a half per sq/ft. with a 220 sanding block . Then dump, pour, wipe, brush, spray, whatever, another coat on. Only now you need to wait about 1/2 hour. Check for nubs again (most likely none) and give it the third and final coat.. if they really want a perfect finish you might need to put a few more coats on. Each coat doubles the drying time.
Shellac gets hard enough to walk on quickly. Three coats and you're putting furniture on it that afternoon.. but gets harder and harder as it ages..
My daughter uses a moist towel to wipe off the dust on her floor. moist, not damp!
Typical is three coats. I have never seen two coats give enough of a build, Four is often too much and you end up with a soft finish.
I dislike water borne floor finish. It looks cheap and plastic. Oil brings out the natural beauty of the wood.
most wood grains will lift when using any water based product, so it is imperative to sand betwen coats.
So my take on this whole thing is that your floor guy is in-experienced or a hack. Assume lack of expoerience and help him learn.
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Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime.
where ...
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Piffin
Have you ever done a shellac finish on a floor?
If you look at 86666.1 you'll see what shellac looks like on black walnut.
Third coat going on today, and for him to learn, I had to do a little learnin' myself. Hopefully, this last coat will look great and all will be well.If you didn't have time to do it right the first time, how come you've got time to do it over again?
Minor hijack but sort of on topic (will delete and start new if a problem). I have cherry floor that we finished with two coats (most rooms, three in others) of 50% high grade Tung oil, 25% boiled linseed oil, and 25% min spirits, hand rubbed. Buffed it with either red or white scotchbrite to give a matte sheen. Has been about 8 yrs and looking a good bit more dull, especially in laundry room and kichen which has had lot more cleaning.
Do not want to have to move furniture and wait for that mix to dry (even with more min spirits in mix. Any suggestions to tweak it a little with not much dry time. We have five cats (another story) and can move them to screen porch for a while.
Seems like I saw something about mopping with tea formula. What oil did they use years ago? I know that you should not wax.
Thanks, Bob
rasonc,
Here's a clear case for shellac..
shellac is insanely fast and easy to do plus it gives a finish like, well fine antiques!
(because that's what fine antiques use)
Shellac is hard, tough, durable, and above all fast!
Seriously if you use shellac you can do a typical room in about 4 hours, put the furniture back in place, have the house fume free by dinner and it will cost you about $50.00
Shellac was the finish of choice for centuries, only recent advertizing managed to convince people to switch to other finishes.. This is a case where the old finish is better than all the new finishes.. There have been cases of 100 year old shellac still on hardwood floors!
Couple of other minor points, shellac is safe! they use it to coat candy and pills. the only fumes you will smell are alcohol which is the same stuff you drink or doctors use to swab you for a shot.. (Minor 2% differance, so don't plan on drinking it unless you choose to use single malt scotch as your alcohol) ;-)
If you want more information I'll gladly talk you through the process and I have some pictures of it on my floor with a 150 pound newfoundland /St. Bernard cross doing his level best to destroy it at 86666.13
your cats won't be able to touch it!
Edited 7/28/2007 1:46 pm ET by frenchy
Thanks, I had read your previous post. Won't shellac do a high gloss? I have liked the sheen/texture of the tung oil mix as well as it's blendability. Will keep it in mind.
Bob
rasconc,
The look of shellac is pure class.. not glossy like most finishes but with real depth and a sense of quaility. If you see really fine antique furniture you'll note the depth of the finish without that plasticy look of most finishes..
As for it's blendability that's one of shellacs great strengths. Every coat melts itself into the previous coat and makes seamless repair. Damage to any area can be quickly repaired. one spot can be stripped with denatured alcohol and a new finish done in minutes. In addition you can take a semi moist rag and collect dust without any damage unlike oils which will react to such treatment.. Oils do not have durability compared to shellac. They are a far softer finish and much more vulnerable.
If you prefer that semi gloss look you can give the shellac a slight scuff with 0000 steel wool. I think once you see shellac on a floor you'll find a new favorite finish.
How does it apply over a finish like my tung oil? Sanding is not an option.
rasconc,
Aged tung oil is no problem. If you want to check for yourself. Take a splash of denatured alcohol and wipe it someplace that doesn't show. Shellac itself is very benign, if there is going to be some sort of reaction the alcohol will activate it..
Thanks for info. Will be checking it out! When my paint guy put me on to this finish he said it was pretty easy to repair but it has been kind of slow to dry when I touched up under the kitchen table. This is a very large open room configuration with no good place to move furniture.
Bob
rasconc,
Shellac if you buy it premixed is too thick to put on and have dry in 15 minutes.. you need to add two gallons of denatured alcohol to a gallon of shellac..
Zinsser's Bulleye shellac is what you are looking for. Yellow can that most of the big box stores like Home Depot and Lowes sell. About $22.00 a gallon.. Denatured alcohol is about $12.00 a gallon nowdays..
Put a coat on any way you want.. wipe it on, rag it on, brush it on, mop it on, flood it on. Heck, you can put it on with a brick in a sand storm if you've a mind to. ;-)
The ideal way is to buy one of those lambswool applicators they sell because it does a nice job and you aren't on your hands and knees.
Now here's the really important trick. Do it fast.. as fast as you can! slow and neat doesn't work! What happens is the shellac dries too fast, and results in a lousy finish.. don't worry about skipping spots. Just flood it on and do it quick.. any holidays will be caught with the next two coats..
It will take about 15 minutes for the shellac to dry.. then take a 3M 220 sanding sponge ( the yellow one) and sand off the nubs that are raised.. Don't worry it's extremely easy. it takes about a second to a second and a half per square foot to do.
The second coat will take about a half hour to dry. check again for nubs, chances are there won't be any but if there are your old sanding block is just fine.
The third coat will take an hour to dry. If you want you could use a slightly thicker finish coat, it will take a much longer to dry but result in a deeper finish. Since as you said it's a large room with no good place to put the furniture simply move all the furniture to one side of the room finish that and then move it back to the other side. don't worry the piece in the middle will blend perfect..
Thanks again, that's the info I was looking for. Guess we have hijacked enough. Apologies to OP but it was in the genre of your question.
Bob
rasconic,
I'm going to risk one more hijack.
I'm not sure I was clear enough about how to paint shellac..
Fast!
I mean really really fast. Do the Indy 500 of painting!
Don't ever stop and go back..
Flood it on and keep moving.. if you go back it's a mistake! Get it the next coat!
Neat and tidy doesn't matter, the way shellac works is each coat melts into the previous coat. With a lot of denatured alcohol it pretty much levels itself. It's actually better at finding level than you are. So if you are a dabber and don't think you can stop it for this project find some kid and do the Tom Sawyer thing.. tell him the faster he does it the more he will make..
I like to work in my stocking feet.. The reason is simple, shellac washes out!
Sure! Toss those crusty socks into the wash along with any clothes that you got covered with shellac and wash on the heavy cycle..
I gave 15 minutes before you can walk on it but that really depends a bit.. if it's humid out then you might have to wait longer.. the worst it's ever been is 45 minutes for the first coat but then it was so humid I had to chew my air to breathe..
Just remember to double the time for each coat and if you do make the third coat thicker you might wait twice or even four times as long as you would if you kept it regular 1 pound cut..
Thanks one more time. The great room is 33 by 19 with 10x10 kick into kitchen and tying into hall, and looking into bedroom. Guess I would have to mask the tall baseboards if putting it on in that manner. Do not have base shoe but would probably trim that out when finshed. What coverage are you getting per gal of mix at 1 to two alchohol?
Bob
rasconc,
I can get about three coats for a about 400 sq.ft so you are right at needing two gallons of shellac and four gallons of denatured alcohol.
Yes, you probably will need to tape the baseboard. I put shellac on everything. timbers, footers, everything! So I start up high and when I get down to the floor there's some shellac already spilt.. so what? it melts right in and when the floor get's it's final coat everything is done..
Lazy mans way of painting <G>
PS my great room is 36x 22 so I understand how much space you need to coat...
Incidentally, ammonia will attack shellac, so a little in the wash with your clothes would probably help remove the shellac from them. I have even cleaned brushes with it, but most people just let the brush dry and next time you use it, the new shellac will melt the old that's left in the brush. Of course, alcohol will also remove shellac from clothing and brushes, but it takes quite a bit. I really like shellac too--no other finish quite like it and you can vary the color depending on what grade you get.
Welcome the hijack, its all interesting.If you didn't have time to do it right the first time, how come you've got time to do it over again?
I am just kind of sensitive about this kind of stuff, have seen so many discussions degenerate into things so off topic, felt this was close enough and informative.
Bob
True tung oil is greenish and takes at least two weeks to cure, if it dries at all. Every "tung oil finish" contains something beside tung oil to take care of this problem, and the most popular ones don't have any tung oil in them at all. If you find one you like, don't change brands. Personally, I prefer a bit more honesty in labeling - I wouldn't touch a "tung oil" finish with a 10 foot pole.George Patterson
Mine was pure Tung Oil at $54 in 1999$ a gallon, Olde Masters 100% pure Tung oil, mixed 50to/25blo/25minspirits.
It dried pretty quick on the virgin floor, subesequent apps took longer to cure/dry.
Water based finishes hve come a long way. The Company I work for uses this water based product and it is amazing. When used on woods like cherry and Jatoba, the woods darken just as they would with an oil based finish. Its much more durable than oil, and more forgiving to apply. I absolutely love the stuff.
http://www.duraseal.com/sections/products/fp/1000-fin.htm
Like anything else there are cheap water based and excellent water based finishes.
If the floor is not to your satisfaction, well , that's up to you, but 2 coats of hardware store water base is not sufficient.
Gord
Edited 7/26/2007 9:50 pm by gordsco
Thanks for the link, its not the product my guy used but had some great info.If you didn't have time to do it right the first time, how come you've got time to do it over again?
Other people have answered all the other questions, but here's this. Yes, at this point you can still go to an oil-based varnish. You'll have to lightly sand the existing finish for the varnish to bond, but it sounds like you're going to have to sand anyway to level those swollen joints and rough spots.
You'll probably still need two coats of varnish.
Going to try a third coat and hope.If you didn't have time to do it right the first time, how come you've got time to do it over again?
If he didn't sand between coats 2 and 3, you will still have some irreguar telegraphing at end joints and squirrley grain.What happens is that with many woods, when you sand it, you leave tiny - almost microscopic hairs of the cell walls so the surface is fuyrry even though you don't see of feel it at first.
Then when you add a waterborne finish, the water makes those "split ends" fill up and stand up on end more or less. Sometimes woodworkers will wet the surface ligfhtly to make the grain stand up, and then sand or scrape with the grain. With finishes, you can let the finish do that, and you sand those standing hairs of grain off. Leave them and it can take many, many coats to cover them over.
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
Well said.
50/50 alcohol water mix to pop the surface an hour before the stain will allow the stain to REALLY get busy. Makes for a nice depth and seems to seal the fibers as well.Troy Sprout
"A free people ought not only to be armed and disciplined, but they should also have sufficient arms and ammunition to maintain a status of independence from any who might attempt to abuse them, which would include their own government." -- George Washington
Yes, the alchohol will help it dry fast so you can sand the tits off
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
Oil stain seals the tits, but does add some color in the process.Troy Sprout
"A free people ought not only to be armed and disciplined, but they should also have sufficient arms and ammunition to maintain a status of independence from any who might attempt to abuse them, which would include their own government." -- George Washington
I believe he skipped the sanding sealer...
Troy Sprout
"A free people ought not only to be armed and disciplined, but they should also have sufficient arms and ammunition to maintain a status of independence from any who might attempt to abuse them, which would include their own government."
-- George Washington