Help! I’ve got a client who wants 3700 SF of 3/4” black walnut, square edge, in 4”, 5”, 6” and 7” widths to be screwed and plugged to 3/4” osb. All new construction, all well above grade, on two floors, with 70% laid diagonaly, with uninterupted runs of up to 40′. Ive done a half dozen standard t&g strip flooring jobs, but never this. He has the material and wants to start in two weeks. This guy also wants a trumpet shaped flight of stairs, all in walnut, but that’s another posting!
Any tips on starting out, numbers, size, and placement of fasteners, working with stubborn boards, moisture contents, thresholds, joint placements, attaching to joist or not, expantion concerns, sapwood-heartwood (he wants both), bark side up or down, etc.- all greatfully accepted.
Replies
Big load of questions ya have there.
I'll touch a few flags I see.
Is the floor ( or wood at this point) milled consitantly? I.e> are all widths of 5" the same 5"..? I doubt it.
Are the back reliefs milled?
What you mean 40' uninterupted? no joints? AHAHAHAHAA..riggght.
Culled for sap wood? Or is that done?
How long has it been in the room(S) it is going in? Stickered?
I'd REALLY go over everything with a fine tooth comb, twice, thrice...even then, might decline if they are expecting a miracle.
I am sure, yer gonna get an earful here right soon.
Thanks for the quick response. No, there aren't any releifs cut in the back, I have checked for consistant width, and they're good, but the stock has both sap and heartwood, so, how long that will last is any bodies guess. The client wants that contrasty thing going on. As far as expecting miracles, maybe, maybe not. They weren't too put off that there was bound to be gaps. They didn't want them filled. That's what they say now! The walnut is some beautiful, air dried for about five years and finished off carefully in a custom kiln. The colour is going to be great. They surely want something unique, and I want to do the best on my end because that walnut deserses all I can give it.
Edited 6/23/2007 5:51 pm ET by chalkline
Well, if you are satisfied with the material, have at it.
I'd plan on 2 screws at each end of each Piece, and add a biscut and glue at the butt joints.
Decide on a pleasing spacing for the rest, but 16" or even 24" may look too busy. Hitting joists may or may not be important, adding Bostics Best glue in lieu of paper under neath, can't really hurt.
Where has the wood been
how was it dried
who milled it
what does it look like
when was the house finished - how dry is it - humidifiers
What is the wood moister content
what is the subfloor - how thick - glued and plugged - need plywood that has been glued and nailed - joist spacing?
Who provides the plugs and how are they to be glued
sanding, sealing, finishing how many coats - 6? sanding schedule between coats?
The wood has been in the small shop near where it was air dried, kiln dried and milled, but near a garage sized door that is open most of the day. I just checked the m.c. and it ranges from 12 to 8%. ( I rent a suit on this farm). It looks rich. The house on the other hand is open most of the day, and I doubt the heat's on at night, but I should check before I say for sure. The finishers are doing their thing now. (the job's only six months behind.) The subfloor is 3/4'' osb on 14'' TJIs and is not likely to change. I was going to cut my own plugs, all 8000, and hit the hole with a small shot of yellow glue on an edge. Client called out three coats of finish. Finisher wants to put one down, let the subs do their thing, then do the last two. Man, you guys really ask good questions!
I've done alot of standard harwood installations but nothing like this one. I'd love to be with you on this one. i love tricky jobs like this one. My biggest concern did you quote your labour right? don't short change yourself. It sounds like a bugger of a job.
Dave
I could use the help! The job, thank G.. is by the hour.
I'd check to find out if he really likes the sapwood and rustic look. If he is real fussy, then I would not take the job because the artwork in laying out boards that are not consistent will break your back (especially if the customer is fussy). I actually considered walnut for my downstairs, but couldn't easily get all heartwood, and I definately didn't like the walnut sapwood look (eventually went with 5" Jotoba)
I laid about 2500 sq ft of 5" red oak that was air dried to 7%. This was done in winter and there are quite a few separations (my own house, so I get to live with it). Is I were paying someone else to do it I wold not be happy.
This will be a lot of work. Decide on a pattern of layout (i.e 4,5,6,7 vs 7,4,5,6 or something else). Make sure there is enough Lineal ft of each to do the pattern that you want.
Moisture content should be less than 7 % or less.
Pluging: make a jig for the spacing
Biscut join the squared-off ends, but don't bother with the glue. make a toggle clamp jig to hold the boards while joining.
Bark down will usually show less sapwood.
Regards,
Roger <><
Thanks MrSQL
Moisture content is a definite concern. The wood came out at 7% but because of substantial delays in building, it has had to sit at the shop, which is kept at 10% when the doors are shut, but they are often open during the day so... The new house is not controlled at this point. They still haven't even heated up the wiring. Why not use glue on the end biquits? Could you expand on the toggle clamp sugestion, it sounds useful. appreciated. Steven
For about half of my floor I used glue for the biscuits. It was a real pain because it slowed me down. What the biscuits are doing is keeping the two boards end-to-end at the same level. In my estimate the biscuits alone would do that and the glue was overkill. It's been 7 months since I laid mine and no problems related to the end joints with dry biscuits. (Order the buiscuits from Grizzley or Woodworkers Supply well in advance because sometimes they are hard to get [and they are much too expensive at HD or Lowes]).
The toggle clamp jig was just two peices of 3/4" plywood about 8"x16" with a 3"x16" used as a fence and to attach the toggle clamp and register the edge of the biscuit joiner. Just put the floring board with squared-off end on the jig (jig is screwed to something stable) up against the fence; clamp it down; put buiscut joiner against fence and make your cut; unclamp [done]; Makes it go a lot easier as you don't have to hold the board, just the buiscuit joiner.
If I were you, I'd stack and sticker the wood in a humidity controled environment for 1-2 weeks prior to installation. I brought mine down a couple of % (in winter) by doing this and moving a dehumidifier from room to room [too much wood to stack in one room].
Here is another resource idea: Steve Wall at WallLumber.com [Mayodan, NC] sells a lot of this random width walnut (kiln dried). He could give you some installation tips. Also, if the quantity you have is not enough, he should be able to hook you up with some more.
With this kind of flooring I experienced about 10-15% waste. You may expereince more with your diagonal cuts.
Regards,
Roger <><
Hi Roger
Again, Thank you.
All you people have made my life a little less frantic.
Cheers, Steven
A few suggestions from a diy'er. I used ratchet straps, the kind for laminate flooring to pull my 3 1/4 oak flooring in place.
I would use the Festool Domino to join planks together. Much more accurate than biscusts, zero slop so the edges will not move and necessarily not need to be screwed down and make odd screw patterns in the floor. Much more elegent way of joining boards, the plugs fit so tight that glue could be optional.
Cut the plugs proud and use a Fien MM to trim flush, I think it would be easy to ding a hickory plug and the MM will cut the plugs almost prefectly flush, a few small scratches will sand out easily. The MM will cut them like hot butter.
Jim
Here are a few ideas when working with plugs and square edge boards. The plugs should be face grain and oriented the same as the board. You can't go too deep in 3/4" material. Consistency will help later. Insty bit makes a nice tapered drill bit with a countersink and counterbore. You can drill for the screw and the plug in one step. An electric drill is much faster than any battery drill I've used. They also have plug cutters. 3/8" is often a good size, small enough to sand and large enough for the screw head. Try to keep the plugs proud of the surface by only 1/16". They can be sanded flush. If they are too high, you will have to pare them down a little at a time. Take a big bite with a chisel and they may break below the surface.
Square edge boards can be a real pain since they are seldom exactly the same width. You will find ends that don't match, causing gaps. A few gaps and unevenness will knock your lines out of straight. Don't even try to straighten bananas, set them aside. Keeping your edges straight will be a challenge on a forty foot run. Eyeball your lines often so you can catch it before it gets bad. You can temporarily lay down a row of boards and snap a line on them. One way to cut them to the line is to clamp a long straight edge on the line and use a router with a flush trim bit. This will get you straightened out if need be.
Since there are variations in straightness as well as in width, your end cuts may not fit each other, even though your saw is correct. From time to time you can expect to have to re-cut and that adds time. Since the boards are random width, you will have to take each course all the way across the room. You can't start several at one end like you can with ordinary hardwood. You will want to carry your rows out anyway to avoid getting wavy.
Years ago I did the back of a bar in a 45° herringbone, going left and right of the center. There just isn't any way to do this with the saw in one position if you are not truly at 45°. and I was right on. The lumber was a rustic hickory, knots, different colors. When I stood back, it looked like the whole thing was leaning. It was an optical illusion caused by the grain in the adjoining boards. The lesson is to stand back with some of these type materials. You may want to be careful you don't get a run of similar grain or color in one spot.
With random width, you won't be able to space the plugs evenly. I would snap lines on all the joists so you know where they are and to keep the screws lined up. I've used two plugs per board up to 8" and hit the joists 16" OC. If you take some extra care to keep the plugs in from the edges an equal amount, it looks better than random and out of line. You don't have to land on a joist. You won't be able to hit it with end screws but random joints will put the plugs off line. This will also depend on the lengths of the boards and how checked the ends are.
I like to be random with end joints rather than have a noticeable pattern. If you start 6,8, 10 and repeat, it shows a dominant step pattern, personally, I don't like it. With the square edge boards, you may have to cut longer ones to get straighter pieces. You will find yourself looking around for a board that will break the joint with the preceding row and still be the right width for the row. If you are trying to hit joists, it's harder. Again, extra labor.
I've never worked in a climate controlled house. There isn't any doubt that the boards will shrink and swell with seasonal changes, eventually. I would make sure that they are about 7-9% moisture content at installation. A few fans keeping the air circulating always helps. As far as bark in or out, I think you have to decide on the individual boards. Some that may belly are easy to spot, I go belly up. Many times it will be the best face that determines placement. I think you have to be prepared for a lot of additional labor as well as some problem solving when comparing square edge to typical factory hardwood flooring. Perfection can be elusive. When you are finished, the reward will be worth the effort. Just try to get paid in kind.
Hey hammer1, you're degree of input is awesome! I'm getting a much clearer picture of things and the level of anxiety is dropping. You drill by hand, not by press. I take it you find this quicker and less walking? Keeping the run of boards straight seems like the major challenge. Would you say, because there isn't any t&g, that the rows could start mid room and cut the out- of- square- room thing down a little? Now for the thorny issue of cost. What would you put the % increase over a conventional t&g flooring job, using say 31/4'' strips. They will want an estimate even if the job is by the hour. Have you ever used or heard of a persuation device a little more elegant than driving screwdrivers into the subfloor or taper wedging? Steven
Steven, I gather you are already working for these folks. They must have confidence in your abilities and I'm sure they trust you. Obviously, you want to respect that trust with a fair price and one that also keeps you in business. You won't know how your materials are going to go together until you start in. I think you said 3500 SF and a large part is diagonal. That's a big floor. Laying the boards will be a lot like any boarding job. The condition of the material makes a big difference. I'd go over with a bunch of bar or pipe clamps and lay down some boards, three feet wide +-, just to see how good or bad they seem to be. You will be able to make a guess as to how much trouble is ahead. Cutting, installing and sanding down the plugs will take some significant time. Could I do 250SF in a day? I'm guessing but I know it takes a long time. This is a place for some owner sweat equity if labor costs are a factor. Q-tips are good for putting glue in the hole.I like to have a bunch of 8'-10" pieces of scrap 2x4. Instead of prying or wedging, I'll put a piece of 2X (edge grain) against the board and spike a toenail into the edge of the 2x4 to pull the board tight, you have to use a joist for nailing. I beat the crap out of the 2Xs, when necessary. Another tool I can't live without is a Stanley ripping chisel #819. If you don't have one, go get one. These are the best general purpose bars around. Sharpen the straight end. You will have an easy grip, with a little tap, and some serious leverage.
http://www.stanleytools.com/default.asp?CATEGORY=HT+BARS&TYPE=PRODUCT&PARTNUMBER=55-818&SDesc=Offset+Pattern+Ripping+ChiselI don't see why you couldn't start in the middle and go both ways. When it comes to pricing, it will depend on your crew and how efficiently you work together. You will need a good sliding miter saw. I drill the boards by hand but you will need a drill press for the plugs. I take 2"-3" wide pieces of scrap material and bore as many plugs as possible but I don't cut all the way through. I run some masking tape over the plugs and then cut the plugs free by using a band saw or table saw to rip/re-saw the scrap and get even length plugs. Good luck with the project.Beat it to fit / Paint it to match
Thanks for all the help hammer1, it was a real boost. I'll let you know how things are going.
Regards, Steven