What do you prefer to put between hardwood and the subfloor? Rosin paper, felt?
I’ve never installed one before, but I’ll be doing so at my folks’ place.
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Either one works. I like felt.
Both work but the American Lung Association recomends rosen paper to keep the asphalt out of the house.
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"You cannot work hard enough to make up for a sloppy estimate."
Felt it is recommend by the National Wood floor association it is what I use more cushion then rosin. Once the flooring is installed very little off gassing will occur. but either will workWallyo
It does seem that ofgassing would be minimal from tar paper under hardwood but what seems logical and what is fact are often different things. While I don't have test data on this issue I do have some test data here about the infiltration of Benzene into homes from attached garages and it is pretty shocking. It takes a six month period after occupancy of the new home for the problem to show up but daily parking of a hot carburetor under tha same roof you live in brings elevated levels of Benzene into a new house within six months of occupancy. Seems like that shouldn't be much of a problem either but it's on the American Lung Assoc list of problems.
Either the tar paper or the attached garages are probably way way less serious than the problems with carpet and carpet pad that are getting addressed by the CRI standard now being implemented but the fact remains that asthma is now the number one disease amoung children in America and it is a growing problem.
Obviously hardwood flooring is a great way to avoid carpet and that in itself is a step towards an asthma free household tarpaper is a much more resiliant underlay than rosen paper and I was sketical when I switched. By and large we have not had problems with it in the five or so years since we switched. I occaisionally consider doubling up on the rosen paper to regain some of what I lost when I stopped using tar paper. But It's really not been a problem so I haven't acted on that as yet. If I keep moving towards a more demanding clientele I may re-consider that decision not to double up on the red rosen paper but I don't see me going back to the tarpaper.
Like you say, they both work and the risk is probably insignificant. still...------------------
"You cannot work hard enough to make up for a sloppy estimate."
I was going to add one issue which is felt has more of a vapor barrier then rosin which if you are over a crawl space or damp basement may be of some help. I myself have asthma, we got rid of all the wall to wall carpets in our house, I installed engineered hardwood with felt and have noticed a great improvement in myself, my asthma seem to be triggered by mold and dust. When I do a wood floor I lay one strip at a time of felt, cover it with wood till I am three inches from the edge, then lay another strip of felt. Don't know if that helps with off gassing but I don't have a whole room of felt laying out in the open cooking.Interesting on the garage our attached is shop and storage, so we have no worry on that we can't fit a car in there. I did notice you said carburetor wonder if, different with fuel injection a bit more of a closed system. gas is not sitting in a bowl open to the air.Like I said my only other problem with rosin is the thickness otherwise I might use it my self.Now if you want to talk off gassing what about pergo and it foam padding?
felt has more of a vapor barrier then rosin
They each have a perm rating of about 2-4. They're pretty much interchangable.
The main function of a membrane under flooring is to allow differential expansion and prevent dust from filtering through.
Riversong HouseWright
Design * * Build * * Renovate * * ConsultSolar & Super-Insulated Healthy Homes
Edited 3/17/2008 12:28 am ET by Riversong
New cars sold in USA have not had carburetors for almost 20 years. Do sealed fuel injection systems have this problem?Bill
The study I was referencing was a 1995 report in Indoor Air magazine and it actually refers to "attached garages" rather than "carburetors" so it was just me extrapolating to the word carburetor to make a point, my mistake there. The Abstract is below and the article is still available for a $35.00 download fee. I no longer have it archived on my machine which is a shame because as I remember there were some really provocative graphs showing IAQ change over time tracked in a range of test houses over an extended period before and after occupancy and with and with out garages and other risk factors such as proximity to highways. (But I'm too cheap to pony up $35.00 for an article I think is somewhere in one of my computers already) Also it would be great to get some more updated info from less than 12 years ago. MichaelIndoor Air 1995, 5: 258-269 ISS” 0905-6947 Effects of Modified Residential Construction on Indoor Air Quality Andrew B. Lindstrom’, David Proffitt, Christopher R. Fortune Abstract Indoor air quality (IAQ) was assessed in homes in an experimental community of single-family dwellings that had been built with materials chosen for low pollutant emission and other modified design features to provide enhanced residential indoor air quality. The IAQ was measured in six of these experimental homes and also in three conventionally built homes of similar size and price range. The LAP was assessed shortly after construction before the houses were occupied and again after each of the houses had been occupied for five
months. Before occupancy, there were higher levels of airborne articles and of some volatile organic compounds in the conventional homes than in the experimental homes. During occupancy, benzene, ethylbenzene, m-and p-xylene, and o-xylene were all higher in the conventional homes, but dichloromethane, Freon 11, and trichlorethylme were higher in the experimental homes. In the conventional homes, mean levels of benzene and chloroform increased, whereas methylchloroform and toluene levels decreased from preoccupancy to occupancy. In
the experimental homes, dichloromethane increased, and m- and p-xylene and o-xylene decreased from pre-occupancy to occupancy. The results suggest that attached garages, geographical siting, and occupants activities substantially influenced the IAQ in these homes. The enhanced indoor air quality homes tested in this study were judged to be at least partially effective, with the most obvious sustained IAQ benefits being related to the lack of an attached garage. ------------------"You cannot work hard enough to make up for a sloppy estimate."
Edited 3/15/2008 11:38 am ET by ShelterNerd
Interesting abstract. It makes sense that a car full of VOC's would pollute the room it is put away in when still warm. It seems that a small fan running constantly to depressurize the garage would eliminate toxic infiltration of the living space.It'll never be a problem for me since my garage is only a shop. Cars can live outside, while shop equipment needs shelter. A man's got to have his priorities straight!Bill
The new NAHB-ICC national Green Building Standard addresses the need to isolate the garage air from the living space by giving points for the ventilation you suggest as well as for enhanced air barriers between the garage and the house. So at least someone is listening to the issue.------------------
"You cannot work hard enough to make up for a sloppy estimate."
Bill I am with you on the priorities.Wallyo
felt...
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming
WOW!!! What a Ride!
Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!
I had some lingering concerns about stepping on the tarpaper, then stepping on the hardwood. It's pre-finished. Any chances I could leave black tracks?
It's over a perfectly dry basement, so it's not really needed as a vapour barrier.
Biff More of a chance if you set the roll on end on marking the wood then tracking it via shoes from tar paper to flooring. Even if it happens a light house hold cleaner will take off the marks, damp rag with a drop of dish soap.Wallyo
Thanks!
"What do you prefer to put between hardwood and the subfloor? Rosin paper, felt? "'
Given your basement application, which even over a 'dry' slab will likely be exposed to more moisture than over subfloor, I would suggest this:
http://www.fortifiber.com/aquabar_b.html
Jeff
Not in the basement - above the basement. That is to say, the main floor.
Take a moisture reading of the subfloor and see what you've got.
Jeff
You really do not need paper of any kind unless installing over a damp basement or crawl space.
We use wax paper as an underlayment in all installations and one reason for this is to create a clean surface. Things move pretty fast during installations and a small piece of debris between the tounge and groove can cause a gap.
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