Greetings All, Cindge here, longtime lurker, occasional poster…
I have recently been in contact with an architect in my home state of Missouri. I want to build a small home on my land in rural southern Missouri, nothing big and nothing fancy. Basically from the phone book, I selected a firm out of St. Louis.
The principle I spoke with was incredibly responsive, really listened, very professional, and a true delight to work with. Everything I would want in a contractor 🙂 . We swapped a few phone calls, and maybe 4-5 emails, then I get the estimate. Holy cow. I was prepared to spend about $12K (very high in this impoverished neck of the woods), his estimate was $24-40K to get blueprints.
I know this would be cheap for an expensive house, so I don’t begrude him that at all. I’m just disappointed because I was so excited to get rolling on my dream, and so glad to find a contractor that was so great. I just can’t afford that, that’s about 30% of my total budget. (I’m serious).
Was I unrealistic with my budget? (Apparently so!). Are all architects in this price range? Thinks there’s any chance he “high-balled” the job because he didn’t want it?
Credit where credit is due. I was incredibly impressed with the initial exchanges, and would totally recommend him to any of my rich friends (if I had any!). And yes, I’m paying him for his estimate! (And I made every effort to be the model client, btw)
I know if I am completely daft here, someone will tell me.
Replies
I hire architects for commercial work all the time. Complete cd's for a 3500 sf building run about $90-$130k depending on the anmount of site work.
"Put your creed in your deed." Emerson
"When asked if you can do something, tell'em "Why certainly I can", then get busy and find a way to do it." T. Roosevelt
not all arch. charge like this.
ask around.
that is the rate we would pay for a custom home.
You know that in MO you don't need an archy.
Plenty of house designers around.
When I built my house in the KC area I paid stock plan prices for a custom designed house. However, it was a realatively simple 1600 sq ft house. But it was truely custom to fit my needs and the lot.
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A-holes. Hey every group has to have one. And I have been elected to be the one. I should make that my tagline.
bill ,when hiring a designer what should a guy expect? elavations,floor plan,would they also give mech duct design,window specs??????
i'm sitting here tonight looking at plans and none seem dead on so it looks like i may be headed down this road to a designer and just don't know what all to expect.thanks larryif a man speaks in the forest,and there's not a woman to hear him,is he still wrong?
I "detailed" the house as it was built in terms of cabinets and finishes. So there where no pages showing all of the little details needed to acutally produce a finished house.But they are detailed enough for a spec builder to use his standard products and come up with a finished house, although probably much different from my finished house.The house is a little different. It is on a hillside. 2 stories slab on grade, with frost walls. It is on a lake so that house faces the lake. The garage and road is on the backside uphill.So the house has the main floor, up 1/2 flight to the basement under the garage, 1/2 flight to the 2nd floor, 1/2 flight to the garage. It is sized so that standard span tables for sawn lumber can be used. Although a few things are different. The 2nd flr load is partially carried by a wall and part by a cedar beam and post.The garage floor is suspended slab supported in the center by a steel beam and post. The detials for the rebar are listed on the drawing.For this I got 4 sheets.1. floor plan for 2nd floor and garage.
2. floor plan for 1st floor and garage basement.
3. all 4 elevations. this shows the roofs, siding, deck and walkways. It also the clearstory window in the master bedroom. And the stepped footings, concrete walls and concrete brackets to support the walkway (it it an enterance into the garage level from the road).
4. Cross section of the house showing the relationship of the house and garage and the stairs. It also gives more details on the foundation and footings.Now the window sizes and type are shown. But there is a note to see separate window schedule. I think that the when I picked the brand of the windows some of their sizes where slightly different than the nominal ones shown. Now the plans don't show anything about the HVAC ducts. But there is utility closet for the furnace and WH shown. Along with with a note along the first flr hall to "furr down for ducts". The location for the fue was shown on the first and 2nd floor.There are a number of details not shown that probably should have. But they can be worked out.For example there is no drains shown. So that had to be worked out and drawn up for that part under the slab and the stub to the sewer line. That is part of the reason that they stubbed out into the wrong end of the house..
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A-holes. Hey every group has to have one. And I have been elected to be the one. I should make that my tagline.
Dead on. I believe the inquirer would be "very" well served by your road map and suggestions based on obvious significant practical experience'
Never serious, but always right.
Here, in NC, from my experience, architects are rarely used on residential single family homes. The group of companies I work for build up to $mil homes with no architects. I've read here that some states require architects, but that is not the case here for single family. We use design firms. I've had 4 homes drawn in the last 3 months. The cost is $.65 a heated sq ft plus the engineering cost, which, I can't remember, but was around $600 pr $700 for a 2000 sq ft house. So, you might be talking $2500 or $3000 complete, stamped plans for a modest home. This arrangement works fine for people who have a pretty good idea of what they want. Generally the starting point is a "cut sheet" or some other sketch. The designer I have been using, I think is very good. He knows what works and what doesn't and is good at coming up with solutions like maybe: "How can we fit a double bowl sink in this (rather small) bathroom?"
Granted architects can offer other things like more artistic and imaginative buildings or maybe better siteing (is that a word?) of the house. Thing is for city houses, there really isn't any decisions top be made about how the house is placed on the lot.
My company also builds multi family - which does use architects. I think it is required, but I'm not sure. My experience there has mixed but some has not been that good. For example archi designed an apartment complex where the roof ridge ventilation he speced wouldn't work, since there was a fire wall that went right up the middle of the building that extended up to the top of the roof. I was working with the guy and he gave me some ideas of how to resolve it. So I proposed a work around and did all the calcs. His response: "OK good, it looks like you have done your home work. Now write it up, and go down to the building dept and present it and get them to sign off on it" ie: do my job for me... I just went ahead and built it and had a nice day... He designed some other stuff that didn't work too... Of course all corrections are billed at the regular $150/hr rate - or whatever it is... Then at the end he comes out for his bi-monthly site visit with some of his buddies all wearing shiny shoes and taking pictures and talking about "look what I built"....
On another more recent project we were having some town houses designed by another architect. He did a nice job and although they are not built yet the drawings are complete and the project is in startup. The product looks really nice on paper. What irked me about that one was the guy specifically did things I told him not to. Example: He wanted the 2nd floor ceilings to be 9' (even though my project specs said 8') so he went ahead and drew them up his way. These things are supposed to start at $130s and it just isn't in the budget. He felt he needed to argue about that, until he was reminded who was paying the bill... Another similar one was I had speced 2 or 3 risers from grade up to the front porches - again for budgetary reasons, but to show just enough brick to give the brick foundation look but so as not to require stair rails. NO - he wanted 5 or 6 risers, which, although would have looked a little nicer, would have added probably at least $1k to the foundation costs alone...
My advice - look around and find out what is available other than architects.
Edit: to be fair the archi may likely include some kind of on-site support, and the designer - at least the ones I've used - for the most part - don't. Also with the designer route, the builder still owns the problems.
Edited 3/19/2008 9:03 pm ET by Matt
There is no more need for an architect in designing a modest single-family residence than there is to hire Rembrandt to paint your house.
Either find a competent design/builder (one who builds what they design) or buy a stock plan and have a builder customize it for your needs.
I just completed a 2,000 sf custom house for a client. After 8 revisions of the design, for all floor plans, elevations, cross-sections, framing plans, foundation plan, subslab plumbing plan, radiant heating plans, electrical plans, door & window schedules, and complete materials lists - I charged the customer $5,000.
Solar & Super-Insulated Healthy Homes
Edited 3/19/2008 9:23 pm ET by Riversong
"There is no more need for an architect in designing a modest single-family residence than there is to hire Rembrandt to paint your house."You are quite correct in your analogy. But some architects can offer things that a traditional house designer may not be able to just by the nature of the training of the two professions.
Firstly I think the main difference is the way an architect might approach the project. Looking at site conditions and analysis, existing context, environmental issues, etc. And then looking for an individual solution unique to the client and site.
On the other hand from the house designers I've been acquainted with at the lumber yard. I see their approach more as modification of existing patterns or plans to suit customers wants. As the original post asks, are the fees out of line? I don't know but I'd be sure to interview more than one architect to get a clearer picture on the going rate in your area. You can call your local AIA (American Institute of Architects) chapter for references.
Ted,
I think you are right on with what I wanted, and the lure of hiring a professional. My land is very special to me, family land, live there until I die, etc, etc, and I want structures that take advantage of the views, gazebos, leisure spots inside/outside, etc. That's why I was so enamored when the arch. said he could really come up with something that works with the WHOLE site, not just a house on a standard city lot.
Would this just be "hand holding"? Maybe. But, I'm spoiled by all the pretty pictures in FHB :) and my house is a LONG term project, so I'll admit I could use help to get it right.
(Spoiled by looking at the pictures, living the poor person life. Sigh.)
DW and I had an archy and passive solar design team design our house about 12 years ago. A complete set of prints after 3 iterations was under $6K. This is a site specific plan and a custom design based on our life style, basic philosphy, and Dw heritage.
We were looking at passive solar via internet searchs and found thier web site. You might do an internet search for similar firms. Small firms have smaller cost (no large staff to support), are equally responsive to your wants and needs.
Our team met my criteria for building. I got 14 pages of detailed plans that leave very little room for any sub or even me to make things up on the fly. It also met my wife's expectation at the time. That was a large hurdle :)
It can be done.
You just need to very up front with your expectations durring your intial conversations. To me it is like going out to buy a car. Know what you want to send, waht you want for your $$, and then negotiate like hell when you get to the deal.
Sounds like you got a great value....
We hired an architect a few years ago to help with the design of an addition (1600 sq. ft.) to our existing house. We met with her and our contractor and we all agreed that she needed to prepare elevations, basic floor plans, etc. but not construction drawings. We went through a few changes to the basic design, especially with roof lines and window placements. We paid about 4-5K and it was $$ well spent. Any competent builder can figure how to build a simple house without detailed construction drawings. The architect was available to consult as the work progressed when anything came up.
I'm going to be remodeling our house in the future and will need some plans.
Who would be a better person to design what we want?
The look of the house from the street is very utilitarian/basic. We want to change the roof line, windows, etc., etc..
I believe good design is an art. How do you know if someone has a gift for this?
I'm not so interested in how the structure goes together. I'm really interested in the overall look AND all the little details that make it come together. How they work together.
Would either one work just as well? As long as they have an overall grasp of the design and the small stuff?
What you need is what our architect provided. We already had multiple roofs and were concerned about how the addition would look.
Just like any other profession, you interview. Ask for referrals, check out your local AIA office, look at houses house design inspires you, etc. And then start making calls. As mentioned in other posts, "You don't need an architect". You want one because an architect can (not all of them) bring design talent to the table. That is make the whole more than the some of its parts.
"That is make the whole more than the some of its parts." Exactly! Some people can do this while other can't.
When I see something that is special I can tell. I'm not sure how it works but i know it does.
I'm not very good at interviewing for what i want. I wasn't brought up that way but I am learning.
I was talking to someone a few days ago about this. He just built a huge house out in an area where there are other huge houses. I'm not sure they'd let you build a small one. ;^)
He gave me the name of his designer but I doubt it will be a good fit. My house is the exact opposite of his. Small, close neighbors (not that it matters much), huge design constraints because of the existing conditions, and huge expectations outside the norm. I DON'T want norm.
Anyway, I will talk to him and whole lot more people.
I'm not very good at interviewing for what i want. I wasn't brought up that way but I am learning
Neither am I, that is why I spent a few months writng things down, editing, rearranging and going over details with DW. It is worth the headach you occassionaly have from trying not to miss anything.
I took a lot of the questions out of the cost equation, by just knowing what I wanted in terms of construction before we got started. We alos gave the archy a book of traditional and contemporary Japanese homes (actuualy a realestate magazine from our trip to Japan), and then gave him free rain to create within what he was looking at.
It worked for us because we worked first.
Like you we wanted something different, but not radical.
I'll get into it after I finish a few things I have already started. I would like help from my DW but it just doesn't work. I include her in some of the descriptions but have to limit it or it will be a mess. It's a lot of work and she gets impatient. Also, she always takes the less expensive route. Less expensive in material cost and time cost. If I was looking for the less expensive route I wouldn't do anything at all. Why bother?
For me it just isn't worth it unless it is a big departure from what it is right now. Most home owners ( DW included) just want something like new counter tops, new cabinets, or hardwood floors. And maybe they will take the plunge and spring for all three at the same time. Kind of a commodity consumerist way of designing. Plug in a few new things and they are happy for a while.
Or they just move to a bigger and newer house. Leaving the old neighborhood behind.
This house has a lot going for it. It just needs some TLC and well thought out design. It is something I like to do so it should be fun in a work kind of way.
I just can't design it. Not enough training or experience.
Then its a matter of finding an architect you think you can develop a rapport with. If you go into his office and see the work of a bunch of million plus homes pasted on he walls then that should tell you something. On the other hand if you see work in all ranges of size and scope then that might be more of what you are looking for.
I went to school for architecture so I admit I'm partial. Although like any other profession there are greats and there will be hacks.
But some architects can offer things that a traditional house designer may not be able to...
I think the main difference is the way an architect might approach the project. Looking at site conditions and analysis, existing context, environmental issues, etc. And then looking for an individual solution unique to the client and site.
Well that's exactly how I approach a design project.
inspect the site for soil conditions, slope, groundwater, views, solar access, etc.
discuss the client's lifestyle needs and priorities
consider budget and timing
work collaboratively with client to design interior spaces and exterior aesthetics within a context of environmental and human health
create a design unique to site and client that is environmentally responsible
draw complete set of plans, material list, and working drawings
And all for a small fraction of what an architect charges.
Riversong HouseWright
Design * * Build * * Renovate * * ConsultSolar & Super-Insulated Healthy Homes
Edited 3/19/2008 11:45 pm ET by Riversong
I don't know if this is typical or not. But mine lot had lots of special conditions (odd shapped, slopped, lake vew) and the desginer designed one that was very specific to that lot.But it helps that he used to sled on the lot..
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A-holes. Hey every group has to have one. And I have been elected to be the one. I should make that my tagline.
"But some architects can offer things that a traditional house designer may not be able to just by the nature of the training of the two professions."
A good illustration of this may might be that although architects are only involved in about 4% of residential building, they are responsible for all the iconic houses we agree represent the best examples of any style. Pick your favorite 100 houses of the last 50 years. I bet more than 4 were designed by architects.
There is no more need for an architect in designing a modest single-family residence
Unless the AHJ requires it, of course (both in my County do, one ETJ does, the other does not).
And, as an absolute "need,"it's certainly true an architect can be skipped. The tract builders professional designers all the time.Occupational hazard of my occupation not being around (sorry Bubba)
Unless the AHJ requires it
So much for affordable housing.
Riversong HouseWright
Design * * Build * * Renovate * * ConsultSolar & Super-Insulated Healthy Homes
So much for affordable housing
There's a locally touchy topic.
HfH wants a State Exemption from all mandated review & permit procedures--they claim it interferes with their ability to build affordable housing. Which gets a howl from the non-HfH organization which are also building offset-cost housing, as they have to "play by the rules."
It's also touchy since a number of national "student housing" outfits have rolled in, and discovered that, unlike "where they are from" large high-density housing does have to follow the procedures readily available online to get approvals and permits.
(The out-of-towners particularly love College Station's Non-Residential Appearance Code, which is Shall-Fail; the sign ordinance is their next fave <g>--hard to cry for folks too lazy to browse even the first page of the online ordinances.)Occupational hazard of my occupation not being around (sorry Bubba)
Architects are in a service business, and in general, we price based on how long something will take. In my firm, we tailor the services to the clients needs. I have done complete custom designs of houses, plans and a front elevation, for as little as $2000. These are not the construction drawings, they are the design drawings, then the homeowner has a drafting service produce the drawings.
I have also done custom homes and "builders sets" of drawings for around $6,000 to $8,000. The drawings are comparable to what you would get if you bought drawings. It would have everything you need to get a permit, and build the shell, but would not specify every detail and material.
We just finished a lovely cutom $1 million home, and our fee for total services was around $26,000. We picked every finish and color, every light fixture and tile, custom designed every cabinet, attended construction meetings every week.
I also did a custom bathroom and bedroom remodel/addition for a client where the fee was around $45,000. The client wanted me to accompany him on trips to look at every material, every single thing was lavishly custom, we had to go to new york on his jet to pick tile, and I ended up selecting every item in the room incuding the phone and hair dryer.
So you can see that there is a range, and you get what you pay for, all things being equal. One thing I don't understand about your post- you keep calling the architect the contractor. Perhaps the fee is high becasue this person is not only going to do the design, but also build it, and this is why the fee is so high? You need to clarify that. So look around and interview other people, and see if you can find someone who is willing to provide the level of services you are seeking. Realize that you may not be able to afford a lot of handholding! Check references, and make sure the person has lots of experience in residential work
"One thing I don't understand about your post- you keep calling the architect the contractor. "You addressed this post to ALL.
To whom were you addressing that statement?
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
Piffin, don't go picken on one of my fellow Architects!
You know perfectly well he meant All in a nice way and was very reasonable.
;o}
ciao, ted
I must have worded something wrong. I have been holding back here in this thread, finding myself leaning to the archy POV more so far.
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
Finedesign,
I used "contractor" in the sense that they are someone hired by me to do something. Not "general contractor", as in the person who builds the house. There have been many discussions about "what makes a good contractor" (of whatever type), some of which I have weighed in on. I wanted to make a point (in case anyone ever referenced any of those other discussions) that this guy has the basic qualities that are desirable. I apologize if it caused any confusion.
Cindge
looking at your profile you are in Texas....
Are you saying that the State of Texas requires house plans to be prepared or at least stamped by an architect?
Would a engineer's stamp do it?
Edited 3/21/2008 5:35 am ET by Matt
Are you saying that the State of Texas requires house plans to be prepared or at least stamped by an architect?
Would a engineer's stamp do it?
No, but an incorporated City can so specify. The State has licensing laws in place that make it illegal to sell architectural services without being licensed, but no one has ever, in the history of that law, ever been prosecuted for it.
Now, there are ways to use an engineer's stamp instead. There's a gotcha in that, 1, not all PE are treated the same, and 2, that PE stamp is not always cheaper (and a 3, in that even fewer PEs know anything practical about building houses).
In fact, we have a very recent Attorney General opinion on a developer's use of a licensed Soils Engineer to "stamp off" a subdivision plan which was subsequently found to violate State law for emergency vehicle access (which then voided the sale of the property and got into an annexation brouhaha=big bucks & unhappy movers-n-shakers).
So, excepting 5 (soon to be 6) of 254 Counties, if you build outside City Limits, you don't need anything at all, unless a governmental entity exists to require it.
Oh, there is the slight distraction that you never know which governmental entity might apply, too. Colorado River Authority, Corps of Engineers, Texas Parks & Wildlife, TECJ--all sorts of agencies may have an oar in--and usually you find out when they serve the injuction (not a Stop-Work). Or, you could hire a person smart enough to know to go look.Occupational hazard of my occupation not being around (sorry Bubba)
"HfH wants a State Exemption from all mandated review & permit procedures--"
Seriously?
t
Seriously?
Yeah, it's hit and miss, and not prominently featured on their web pages (neither are their loan default rates, but that's yet another issue).
What has been happening is that HfH loves to have volunteers all show up and wale away at the projects. The City Inspectors then show up and start asking questions that HfH is not comfortable answering. Like, did licensed individuals supervise the work as required; especially all that work your volunteers covered up with drywall without an inspection . . .
Now, do not read any of this wrong--HfH does a huge amount of truely beneficial work and helps untold numbers of people. The problem is that some of the people getting to the top of the heap seem to have less and less of an understanding of minimal building practices (or think "chartitable" ought to equal "give a blind pass" to).
None of which is at all helped by the fact that all HfH work is bit like dancing with porcupines, any wrong move, real or imagined, gets you lacerated beyond all recognition.Occupational hazard of my occupation not being around (sorry Bubba)
None of which is at all helped by the fact that all HfH work is bit like dancing with porcupines, any wrong move, real or imagined, gets you lacerated beyond all recognition
I spewed my pizza on the screen at that one.
Thanks.
The few times I've volunteered with HfH, the whole day was like "herding rabbits."
The few times I've volunteered with HfH, the whole day was like "herding rabbits."
Yeah, all that communal love and caring and work assignments by lot (so the sparkies are applying joint compound and plumbers hangin electrical fixtures while the roofers frame and the framers paint . . . and you can't suggest that maybe somebody with experience ought to, sorta, be, well, "in charge" . . .
Last one I was on it was like herding rabbits alright, but while herding cats in heat with woodchucks and squirrels loose, too . . . Occupational hazard of my occupation not being around (sorry Bubba)
The last one I did was like that. It was sponsored in part by the utility company I work for and another large local business. The predominate talent was office personel. I ended up with nine people nailing felt paper on a 4/12 roof. I ended up stationing one on each side of the gable ends to keep their coworkers from walking off the ends. Only had one minor injury when the resident macho man decided he could whack cap nails faster them me. I think he eventualy lost a thumb nail. He went home early, after refussing to let an EMT or me drill out the nail for him.
Around here HfH has the foundation work, ussually block crawl spaces, and rough in plumbing done by pros. After that it is all volunteer until the electric rough in, then it is back to volunteers. They have a pretty good organiztional method set up, but never know what the talent pool will be like. They draw from the sponsoring companies and depending on the line of business the only consistantcy is in the enthusiam the volunteers bring with them. That alone make it worth while. It is nice to show up on a job and not here the standard b*tchen and moaning I here most days from co-workers on my day job. All in all it is a good experience. Maybe when i retire I'll do it more.
The few times I've volunteered with HfH, the whole day was like "herding rabbits."
Of course, that depends entirely on the organizational ability and quality of volunteers at each local affiliate.
HfH in Shelby County Alabama holds the world's record for fastest house construction: 3 hours, 26 minutes and 34 seconds, including sod and landscaping.
http://www.habitat.org/newsroom/2002archive/insitedoc002185.aspx
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O0ph0rA-A9U
Riversong HouseWright
Design * * Build * * Renovate * * ConsultSolar & Super-Insulated Healthy Homes
Riversong, I can be a Rembrandt or a fence painter as an Architect. The needs of the client dictate that.
The description of the work, and price, you gave for that house you designed is perfectly aligned with what anyone should expect from a design professional.
When a client looks for unique features and dramatic interior elements that required hours of thought and analysis, and review by the Owner, then it gets pricy.
{Seen any paradigms lately? ;) }
ciao, ted
With so many plans on the internet available I can't believe you can't find something a bit close to your dream. I found a home I liked right here in town. I pulled in one day and talked to the owner. He showed me around and there were a few things I wanted changed but all in all it was as close to perfect as I needed. I asked for the name and he supplied it.
I went to the office and had a chat with the designer and she printed a set of plans. I red lined them moving things around, designed the master and guest bath more to my liking and shrunk the house. She redrew it and I was off to the races for about 5000.00.
Someday I should send her a pic of the finished product. Ya, it went over budget.
In Chicago, which is not Mo., we figure about $1,000 a page. Probably $7 to $900 there.
Ask for a builders set, not the all fluffed up owners set Ask for the cd or velum's so you can make your own prints. I'd also ask or insist on ownership of the design. You don't need an exact cabinet layout, you can get that from the cabinet supplier for free, trim piece details, paint, tile, etc selections I assume you can do all of that yourself, especially with the help of a competent builder or sub contractor.
My assumption would be no more than 8 to 10 pages for a project this size. Just make sure the architect guarantee's the prints to be permit certifiable and you can call him/her for any clarifications during construction. In fact I'd ask him to agree to visit the site 3 or 4 times during construction. Might work might not but ask.
$24 to $40,000, outrageous.
My assumption would be no more than 8 to 10 pages for a project this size.
The tract builders seem to feel anything over three pages is a waste of time <grr>
Just make sure the architect guarantee's the prints to be permit certifiable and you can call him/her for any clarifications during construction. In fact I'd ask him to agree to visit the site 3 or 4 times during construction. Might work might not but ask.
Uhm, it is my understanding, information and/or belief that delivering plans that do not conform to the AHJ's rules is a clear license, if not practice violation in all 50 states. The "stock" AIA contact for architectural services mandates construction supervision. Most other contracts typically do too (site supervision & punch list work is considered 1 to 2% of the fee). It's usually a big deal for a client to not have construction supervision/oversight, to the point of needing a whole raft of hold-harmless and quitclaim expensively bought from lawyers.
$24 to $40,000, outrageous.
Dunno, seems a fair fee for $2-4 million house (I know, OP's is not; but, price per sf is an under-uniform, as we have hashed out here before).Occupational hazard of my occupation not being around (sorry Bubba)
The "stock" AIA contact for architectural services mandates construction supervision.
I don't have one in front of me, but it seems to me that the AIA (and most if not all other) contracts provide for periodic "observation" but never "supervision." Architects don't want to buy responsibility for a contractor's work. Maybe one of the architects will comment on this point.
contracts provide for periodic "observation" but never "supervision."
Ah, an "oops" on my part, the old terminology sticks to a person. The contract for architectural service requires observation, not supervision. But, being on scene on some schedule is part and parcel of it. Not that I can think of a remedy if the archy didn't visit off the top of my head (client could withold that last 1-2%, but it would cost).
Hmm, if it's a G7nn contract, a case could be made that the architect has a responisibility of at least "per draw" site visits, if only to properly attest that the materials claimed to be on site by the contractors actually are--ugh, Good Friday pointlessly at work on beautiful day is a bad time to come up with reasons to crack open AIA legalese . . . Occupational hazard of my occupation not being around (sorry Bubba)
Contracts obligate us to on-site inspections.
The responsibility is to ensure that the client's building is according to the plans and that there are no inherent Code violations caused by field changes; that the work is being done within acceptable standard building procedures and the site is reasonably safe for all the work to be performed.
Upon acceptance of my registration with the State of Ohio I became a Class II, Building Official with all the responsibilities that involves. Further, if there were any visible violations of Code or dangerous construction "solutions" which resulted in personal or property damage, and I did not act to resolve them, I would be liable. And, I/we are all obligated to ensure compliance with all National, State and Local Codes for all disciplines if we observe them or if there is an attempt to hide them.
I just scared myself.
ciao, ted
That represents a much higher standard of care than generally applies in MA, where I mostly practice. When I look at a possible claim against an architect, the contract is usually much more limited when it comes to the architect's responsibility (or not) for seeing that the work complies to either code or the contract documents.
In addition, MA law generally limits property damage or personal injury claims against an architect (or contractor) to six years after completion:
G.L.c. 260, § 2B: Actions of tort for damages arising out of any deficiency or neglect in the design, planning, construction or general administration of an improvement to real property . . . shall be commenced only within three years next after the cause of action accrues; provided, however, that in no event shall such actions be commenced more than six years after the earlier of the dates of (1) the opening of the improvement to use; or (2) substantial completion of the improvement and the taking of possession for occupancy by the owner. If the building doesn't fall down until the 7th year, you're home free:-)
If the building doesn't fall down until the 7th year, you're home free:-)
Yes, but, doesn't that only apply to licensed designers? Or those working at the direction of State-recognised designers?Occupational hazard of my occupation not being around (sorry Bubba)
It applies to designers, builders, architects, etc. The statute doesn't identify only licensed individuals, but I've never had a case where the six year statute of repose was a concern and licensing was also an issue. Here's an interesteing quote from a case:
"The fact that a defendant caused the deficiency by gross negligence, wanton conduct, or even knowing and intentional wrongdoing makes no difference as § 2B is written." Sullivan v. Iantosca, 409 Mass. 796, 798-99 (1991).
"The fact that a defendant caused the deficiency by gross negligence, wanton conduct, or even knowing and intentional wrongdoing makes no difference as § 2B is written." Sullivan v. Iantosca, 409 Mass. 796, 798-99 (1991).
Woo, that's kind of scary. It's too much a Monday over here (and last Monday the office will ever be open in case irony need welding to melancholy) to troll through Vernon's, but my unsderstanding of Texas' Practice law says that one's professional organization gets to set the limits and rules. The benefit of that being you only need to be demostrably better than the two worst licensed practioners in your area to be protected from malpractice.
Mind you, here, "gross negligence" is probably a tort. "Wanton Conduct" probably would be addressed in how a specific County attorney pressed the case; "knowing and intentional wrongdoing" would be in the details, could be civil, could be criminal, and a tort besides.
Probably $6-10K in legal fees just to get it dismissed, the way most construction law cases go (this office has been through three in the four years I've been here, all "shotguns" looking for the deepest, willing-to-settle, pockets).Occupational hazard of my occupation not being around (sorry Bubba)
You all keep going on about how architects are overpriced, but every decent residential contractor I know makes much more than the average architect. I remember a job meeting where the owner pulled up in his Mercedes, the contractor in his jaguar, his foreman was there in his giant shiny new truck, and the architect showed up (me ) in my beat up volkswagen rabbit.
Did you know that an intern architect, after 5 to 6 years of college and an average of around $100,000 in educaton debt starts out making about $32,000 a year? And the average wage for someone with about 15 to 20 years of experience and a license is about $60,000. So its not like we are all rolling in the cash while overcharging our clients. The costs of doing business are high, AutoCAD software costs over $3,000 per license, my liability insurance (and I have never had so much as a whiff of a suit against me in 26 years) is $28,000 per year.
Anyway, what do you care if someone can get paid a lot for what they do? If I can keep busy charging 8 or 10 or 15 or even 20% of construction costs, why do you care? All my work is word of mouth from happy clients, so they think they are getting a good value. The contractors I work with love working with me and give me tons of references because I make their job easy (relatively- I know being a contractor is a tough job...) So why are you saying we overcharge if someone is willing to pay for it, and feels perfectly satisfied with the services after paying?
if someone can get paid a lot for what they do? If I can keep busy charging 8 or 10 or 15 or even 20%
Testify my brother, testify.
(Is there anything crueler than the AUGI salary survey?)
Now, if we could just not have to compete against Clem's mother's sister's nephew's cousin's sister's neighbor's boy "who learnt draftin' in [high] school" who'll work for $10/hr . . .
But, I'm biased, and jaded, cynical, too. But, it does hurt me a bit, the number of people who just don't "get" that just the least bit of Design would make their lives better, or more comfortable, or, at very least, a tiny bit more esthetic, and thereby enriched.Occupational hazard of my occupation not being around (sorry Bubba)
I'd love to limit my liability to 6 years! From what I was told in order to get the seal and stamp requirement through the various "organizations" which opposed the requirement for an Architects' involvement a concession was made. The responsibility extends to 15years. And it is generally as limited as is yours.
A firm I worked for a few years back got thrown into a suit (shotgun type) because of a handrail, actually lack thereof. It was in Code compliance at the time of its construction but....here we are 10years after the project was finished and a suit is claimed. It was eventually thrown out but not after considerable handwringing by the firm's Owner. And of course attorney fees.
After 12 years I still have not been suited and that may go to the clients that I have and an understanding with them that I am a responsible individual. Oh yeah, I have bought a few things but nothing of consequence.
I have brought suit for payment a couple of times but those are on me as the individuals were of questionable moral character and I should have seen that in the project interviews. Small claims court, nothing major.
You guys bu$y up in the Northeast? My commercial/industrial work just keeps growing! Doing a startup with a couple in about 2 weeks. Moving and restoring an historic home, circa 1807.
ciao, ted
Typical statute of repose is 10 years although it varies by state.
Jeff
"$24 to $40,000, outrageous"
I see that kind of number being quoted to a potential client and I'm embarrassed to call my self an Architect.
ciao, ted
I just finished a custom Wright influenced 3,400 sq ftr for a Dr. He had shopped his original print to 4 or 5 of my qualified competitors. On a recommendation he contacted me. Upon meeting he presented a 42 page set of prints from a loop (Chicago) firm. The cost $41,800. I told him I'd review the prints, bid it the way I saw it and if he was interested after the bid, continue on. My number was, although I didn't know at the time and wish I didn't know now, over $300,000 lower than the next bidder. He couldn't believe my bid, but said he was willing to move forward if I could come out even close to my bid and what should he do next. I hated to tell him, but I said throw away the original print except for the elevations, he had basically designed them, and go to a local architect. The new prints 12 pages cost 10+ grand. Based on the new prints my bid was $13,000 or so off on an end price of over $800,000. Too many pages scare contractors into adding too many contingencies for potential missed specifications or notes. And experienced competent builders and sub contractors with the architect can usually provide the owner with all the amenities and interior design he/she may want. And it was dollars un-nessessarily or better spent in the owners behalf.Never serious, but always right.
Your example with the good doctor goes to one of my biggest concerns. He paid for a massive amount of information, little of which had the effectiveness that it should have.
My best case scenario is the client and his wife, along with a general Contractor he trusts and I sitting at table and talking through the process. Generally I start as the odd man out and have to earn my way into the process. (Usually for the reasons cited throughout this forum).
Am I capable of running a site to a finished project? Yes, but I enjoy what I do.
Having an idea of the clients's needs, knowing the limitations(if any) of the contractor, and applying my skills has almost always made the job go smoothly and efficiently. If I know a contractor (meaning I've worked with them before) then my drawings don't need every tiny detail to be put on paper, thus a more modest fee (and future referrals!). But I have to trust that he will call me if he thinks something isn't going to work or he needs larger duct run, or the Owner really wants that whirlpool to be at the floor level or whatever.
There really isn't any magic in what we do just degrees of understanding and cooperation. It always comes down to making a client happy.
ciao, ted
A few years ago, I almost built in Missouri. I went thru 3 archys before I was able to get solid results and fair prices from this firm:
http://storefront.dexonline.com/brendel-architects
It's a woman. I found she spent more time listening to me as well as my wife and produced good results. However, the house was never built. Too bad, she did a nice plan.
i just made post to bill on a designer and what to expect. i talked to a pre fab panel builder in nw ark. that made the comment they would design for free if they got the job framing it. if not they wanted .40 cents a foot for there design work.
are you around the branson lake area? or more rural. larry
if a man speaks in the forest,and there's not a woman to hear him,is he still wrong?
I'm in central southern Missouri, a very rural area.
Thank you very much to everyone who has replied. I will look for a designer to help me. I've already got some definant ideas and wants, I just need someone to put it all together. Anyone got any recommendations? (Thank you for Brendel Arch., I will give them a call)
I can definantely understand not finding plans off the internet to be suitable. It seems like most (understandably) cater to what is "hot" at the moment; master suites, two-story foyers, etc. Stupid stuff, for me. To get a mudroom and a walk in pantry, which is very very desirable in the country, I'd have to get a BIG plan, which I don't need.
Who was the panel builder? I'm really looking into using SIPs.
Thank you again. I don't feel quite so discouraged now. On to Plan B! (or d, or f!)
the guy i talked to is capitol structures in little rock,he was the one that would design,another panelized co. was jrl construction in fayetteville. both of these guys build the walls at the factory and come on site and assemble.
there was guy advertsing sips on the springfield mo. craigslist,in materials.don't see it tonoght but he may be back.larry http://springfield.craigslist.org/if a man speaks in the forest,and there's not a woman to hear him,is he still wrong?
Plenty of good designers right ere on BT.
Some of them not too dam busy either.
DavidThe best reward for a job well done is the opportunity to do another.
sometimes you can't see the forest for the trees.never even thought about bt. i maybe placing a help wanted ad before long..... thanks larryif a man speaks in the forest,and there's not a woman to hear him,is he still wrong?
FWIW, I've used 2 from here myself.The best reward for a job well done is the opportunity to do another.
Why thank you sir!
I was just wondering if I ought to be trying to make contact with the fellow here.
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
Thanks for the leads. The concept of the SIP "kit" (basically) is very, very tempting. Have an experienced crew come out and put their product together. I'd think that would really help the liability issue if something went wrong.
I built my garage (30' x 40' metal building) from a kit from Heritage. It was more expensive than cobbling it together from scratch, but it sure was awesome to just look at the plans, pick up part A, attach to part B, and move on. They had great customer service, too.
Cindge
I am an architect in Indianapolis. We charge a bit more for residential design than commercial because the process is often much more detailed and the clients pickier: 18% of construction cost is for full service architectural service. That includes programming, schematic design, construction documents, bidding, construction administration. That's us being there every 2 weeks to make sure things are going well. That is also us going through a reasonable number of designs and changes.
No one takes us up on that offer, and we aren't surprised nor do we mind. The usual mantra is "maybe someone from the office would like to work on it." That saves you money and us hassle.
Personally I like to do these kinds of projects. I would think you could get a decent set of plans, elevations, even a couple of building senctions and details for $3000, maybe up to $5,000 if you were really working through a bunch of design ideas. I would either find some hungry new architects, or find someone willing to moonlight. You could also hit up someone to just design it -- plans and elevations, and then interview some builders who would make it buildable for you. The problem with a lot of designers is that they've never seen the inside of a lumber yard or hit nails with a hammer before. I think you get my drift.
I did a full set of drawings for 2 different folks, one was a garage and one was a lake house. They came with the idea, I didn't have to change much, just field verify the site and tweak here and there. Both came in about $750 at my hourly rate of $25 an hour. I now charge $35, but that's a still a heckuva deal.
A co-worker recently relocated to St. Louis -- give her a call -- the office is small:
Zwick + Gandt Architecture, Inc.
Lauren Furry
[email protected]
(314) 962-9292
In addition, instead of letting the firm set up the conditions for the deal, tell them what you want and what you're willing to pay: I would like to have you design (thing) and draw up plans and elevations. I'm willing to spend around $4 - $5k. Can you make that work?
HTH.
PS. Residential doesn't require an architect's stamp in Indiana...yet. Bound to be that way sooner or later everywhere.
You make some good suggestions for negotiating the price in your last paragraph, but overall, it seems as though the emphasis of what you offer is how to get it on the cheap.It seems to me a first concern should be to find a designer who has ears to hear and is able to communicate, with whom this OP can share a common vision and philosophy.Then cometh the negotiations
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
18% of construction cost is for full service architectural service. That includes programming, schematic design, construction documents, bidding, construction administration. That's us being there every 2 weeks to make sure things are going well.
I charge about 2.5% of construction cost for the same services, and I'm there every day to make sure things are going well.
The problem with a lot of designers is that they've never seen the inside of a lumber yard or hit nails with a hammer before.
And just what part of the architecture curriculum includes banging nails? With the exception of some of the architects associated with Yestermorrow Design/Build School (where I teach), I've yet to meet an architect who knows how to build a house.
Riversong HouseWright
Design * * Build * * Renovate * * ConsultSolar & Super-Insulated Healthy Homes
Edited 3/20/2008 3:58 pm ET by Riversong
Well consider yourself introduced to another -- 1.5 houses (remodeled) and going!"It depends on the situation..."
Well consider yourself introduced to another -- 1.5 houses (remodeled) and going!
I hate to point out the obvious, but having remodeled 1.5 houses doesn't make one a builder.
Riversong HouseWright
Design * * Build * * Renovate * * ConsultSolar & Super-Insulated Healthy Homes
I charge about 2.5% of construction cost for the same services
So, what are you doing to pay for liability insurance, E&O insurance, and the like?
I'm guessing you are not paying for storage of design materials, or the records storage and other "footprint/overhead" costs we here in the actual business of architecture must.
Do note, though, the current standard (stare decisis) for liability for design is the life of the structure (even if AIA keeps clicking its heels together otherwise). Personnaly I find that middling reasonable, and a potential growth market for specialty, per-project liability policies that could help unburden the process, and even "umbrella in" the vast expanse of unlicensed designers out there.
This is a sore subject for me as there are people right here in town doing the same thing. Too many folk around here working well under my cost, which is bad enough. Worse yet is that the customers cannot tell the hacks from the merely unlicensed, and the product they get suffers for it.
But, like I said, I'm biased and I admit it.Occupational hazard of my occupation not being around (sorry Bubba)
So, what are you doing to pay for liability insurance, E&O insurance, and the like?
I carry contractor's liability insurance, but mostly to cover my tools and equipment.
Insurance is just another racket to separate ourselves from our money.
We suffer under the illusion that we can indemnify ourselves against the vicissitudes of life.
Riversong HouseWright
Design * * Build * * Renovate * * ConsultSolar & Super-Insulated Healthy Homes
Insurance is just another racket to separate ourselves from our money.
Which is fine and true in it's way.
However, when some dufus saws all the collar ties out of a building you designed 20 years ago and it tips over, the best way to not spend thousands of your own money in court it to pay the insurance company to do so.
Also, in the case of design, that "life of structure" is very key. Without some sort of specific liability, an "aggravated" party can come after your heirs and assigns for the redress. Ok, a person could insure that their heirs & assigns needed alms from churchmice to get by, lawyerin' seeming to having an aversion to attaching paupers and all; but is that a sound way to address the issue?
A person could occlude the fact that they were designer-of-record, but that hardly speaks to being a "fine" product worthy of the fees charged.
Ok, it's also one of the few ways I can compete with the sweatshop grinding down highschool kid drafters for $7-8/hr turning out "three page wonders" 10 hours a day, too. I can show the client that one of the things they are buying is this liability policy good against design defects for some definable time frame (like 40 years).
But, I'm biased. This is my rice bowl we are talking about, and it has not been very full over the last decade, and a whole bunch of people don't seem to care that they are kicking it over. Make a person cranky; this person at least.Occupational hazard of my occupation not being around (sorry Bubba)
You talk about insurance... Here is a scenario:
I went over to a condo building site to babysit while my co-worker ( the project superintendent) went on vacation. First morning on site, framers were framing roof with trusses. Building-1 was roughly 220' long (side to side) and 65' deep, 3 stories and a somewhat complex hip roof and four ~40' wide cross gables, 2 on the front and 2 on the back. The framers had built and sheathed the main roof and erected the gable ends on the front 2 cross-gables and the few common fink trusses and then were getting ready to fill in the valley sets. I call the project manager and tell him - "the overframe gables look taller than the main roof...." It was a little hard to tell from the ground, especially with a fairly large building like that. Well... The overframe gables were about 1.5' taller than the main roof. Turns out the architect had drawn the gable roof pitches at 6:12 in the elevations but and labeled them as 8:12 in the text and the little triangles on the elevations and the roof plan. BTW - I'm not positive about the exact numbers. The short of it was that ~$10k in trusses ended up in the trash and the framers had to remove very roughly 40 trusses that they had installed. I have no idea as to why the truss company didn't catch this, and further the F-U was clearly shown on their drawing...
So some people missed the problem along the way, but we know where the root of the matter came from.
Would this be a good example of where the Architect's E&O insurance would come into play?
Edited 3/21/2008 1:20 pm ET by Matt
Would this be a good example of where the Architect's E&O insurance would come into play?
Short answer: Yes.
Long answer is: It Depends. "You" have to get the insurance company to agree with you (this after you find some way to force an admission out of the offending office). If you do that, you run a very real risk of either an insurance company, or the completion bond authority going and getting an injunction estopping any further work on the project until the matter is settled. Estopping work stops payments, too, and leaves the GC (usually) in the bag with bills to pay and no income. So, that leaves negotiated damages wrangling after the fact--which can be simpler, but what often happens is that the CO "war" leaves enough wreckage to muddy the water.
What I have found is that the most egregious offices seldom seem to be filed upon; either the putative plaintiff's attorneys can't or won't want to pursue the case, or the putative defendants aren't very attachable, unless the plaintiff wants to assume the debts and run the office themselves. Construction practice law is pretty narrow as such things go, the "players" tend to be specialists, and often limit themselves to "big" cases.
This junior-lawyering aspect of this biz is my least favorite part of it. It's all the work and continuing education of lawyering, only with the glamor and high pay and short hours stripped out of it . . . Occupational hazard of my occupation not being around (sorry Bubba)
I definately see your point about how messy an insurance claim could be for an error. I would think that would want to be avoided by all involved parties. If I think of it I'll ask the PM who ended up paying... I'm sure they didn't want to delay a $5 mil project for some lawyers to get around to looking at a 12k error... By my quick calcs, if the project was half paid out at that point, and the const loan interest was, say 9%, a monthly payment might be $20k...
You probably have an inland marine rider on your CGL policy to cover tools and equipment, but what CGL really covers is personal injury and property damage. Regardless of how carefully you choose clients you need to be concerned about adequate liability insurance. If someone is injured on your jobsite, it doesn't have to be that person who sues you, it could be their medical insurance carrier who sues you to recover their loss. Regarding your mediation/arbitration clause, it's all well and good as long as your customer owns the project, but if/when they sell it all of the contract provisions you wrote go out the window.
Yes, insurance separates us from our money, but it might come in handy in a pinch.
CapnMac, my favorite request is "How much for a set of drawings? I'll be doing the contracting myself so I don't have to pay a lot for drawings".
That starts the presentation of my/our responsibilities and obligations, current and future. I've invited clients to take a look at my drawing archives to emphasize the legal and personal burdens that we have as Architects.
Regretfully, anyone with a computer and simple CAD software program can try and hang out their shingle as a designer. (Ohio has really clamped down on these folks!!).
Low ballers have caused a lot of problems around here as have the "Design/Build" types. My reputation has served me in good stead up to this point as most of my work is by referrals.
Stay strong and stay biased!!!
ciao, ted
my favorite request is "How much for a set of drawings? I'll be doing the contracting myself so I don't have to pay a lot for drawings".
LoL! For residential, I've taken to asking them if they've contacted the local truss outfit to make sure there are enough "standard" trusses to do their project <g>
Used to have a set of single-wide and double-wide plans on 11x17 that I'd offer the really stingy types. Stopped after one too many Cities wanted to know if I had the printed specs to go with them . . .
Stay strong and stay biased!!!
Beat down and stove up takes little enough effort as is. At least I can take a shower if I get too Strong <g> . . . Occupational hazard of my occupation not being around (sorry Bubba)
"And just what part of the architecture curriculum includes banging nails? With the exception of some of the architects associated with Yestermorrow Design/Build School (where I teach), I've yet to meet an architect who knows how to build a house."I guess if I was in your neck of the woods I'd reach out and shake your hand. I was a carpenter for 15 years after graduating from college with an architecture degree. Many of the peers I hung out with in school took similar paths and are now builders.
Its more common now than you may think. Students coming out of design school may not necessarily know all the construction detailing. But they are being taught a lot these days about materials and and methods. More so than in days past.
Good to hear from people with diverse backgrounds. Are you an Architect, or you just have the degree?
Worked in offices throughout school. But never really liked the paper shuffle aspect of the job. Sitting behind a drawing board all day wasn't quite stimulating enough plus it gave me a backache. On the side we would design small projects for clients and build it. After graduation a few of my friends and I started our own companies and we'd take turns subbing out to each other.
I still don't get the feeling I'm hearing from any architects with professional hands on building experience... What someone did during summers of their college years counts for little. I really get kind of tired of hearing "that is a field call". Or: "The building plan set was meant to be a conceptual drawing."
Like I said above - architects have a lot to offer but in my experience a field guy is still needed to transform the paper to reality... I'm sure there are architects that really can offer the whole package, but I'm guessing those are the ones that might be charging the 25%+ of the project rate...
"I still don't get the feeling I'm hearing from any architects with professional hands on building experience... What someone did during summers of their college years counts for little. I really get kind of tired of hearing "that is a field call". Or: "The building plan set was meant to be a conceptual drawing."Like I said above - architects have a lot to offer but in my experience a field guy is still needed to transform the paper to reality... I'm sure there are architects that really can offer the whole package, but I'm guessing those are the ones that might be charging the 25%+ of the project rate..."I guess it all seems so commonplace to me because I tend to professionally associate with people with similar backgrounds or interests. In the Twin Cities area (Minneapolis, St. Paul, MN) I could probably rattle off a dozen or so people with AIA credentials or architectural education (4 years or more) that are or have been proficient builders. As far as their fees go I couldn't say because I've been out of the game for so long.
I'm hearing from any architects with professional hands on building experience...
What do you want?
Rêsumê; biography; customer list?
Site work to punch list. For a living. About every trade but HVAC (and have bent ductwork) and Fire Sprinkler plumber, and structural welder/iron work. Residential and commercial. Demolition and landscaping, too. A/V, data, communications, security work, while we are at it.
Actually, that counts against me in the archy trade, I'm considered to have less of a "design" focus, as I'm too practical.
"We" do exist, just not so very often.Occupational hazard of my occupation not being around (sorry Bubba)
I charge about 2.5% of construction cost for the same services, and I'm there every day to make sure things are going well.
If that works for you more power to you. It seems awful low unless you are reffering to site supervision alone, then it seems right.
I've yet to meet an architect who knows how to build a house.
I have to agree they are not that common but they are out there.
I should preface where I'm coming from before I make further comments. I basically quit residentail about 4 years ago ( I still do a little but only when I want to and it meets my criteria) and I am essentially a commercial contractor/builder. I spent alot of years in the residentail end and can honestly say I don't miss it.
Generally it is the architecht with field experience or one that actually listens to what we tell them & ask about that draws the best plans. This also is true for designers but truthfully I have yet to work with one that dosen't own tools and know how to use them. For the most part I don't see designers work (directly) as in Ohio the drawings have to be stamped from an architecht or engineer.
I say I don't see the designers work directly because I do see kitchen layouts (and often the whole show) that are designed by the "house suppplier" of fixtures & equipment ( most common in franchise/chain restaurants) that the architechts tend to accept because they don't want to argue with & lose a steady customer. Mos to ftheose individuals have no clue how to put things together, they are only concerned with selling equipment and a half butted service.
I see a lot of differnet architechts work and the quality is all over the place as is most of the pricing. The architecht I prefer to work with does have the ability to build and his fees are usually in the 8% -12 % range. Most of the pricing I see is in the 12-18% range but the 26% previously mentioned is not uncommon.
I charge about 2.5% of construction cost for the same services, and I'm there every day to make sure things are going well.
If that works for you more power to you. It seems awful low unless you are reffering to site supervision alone
I should clarify. I don't charge - for design or anything else - a flat fee or percentage of job. I bill all work by the hour. 2.5% - 3% happens to be what it has worked out to on the last couple of house projects.
That included about 20 pages of plans, details, schedules and materials lists. Site supervision is billed separately, since I'm on site working every day.
Riversong HouseWright
Design * * Build * * Renovate * * ConsultSolar & Super-Insulated Healthy Homes
The commnets about architects not knowing how to build reminded me of an article in the local paper."When Carl Stenstrom wanted to build his dream house, he took matters into his own hands.It was 1958, and the young architect with a growing family put his sharp pencil to work drafting his own blueprints. When material trucks arrived, he wheelbarrowed rock, sand and gravel to the building site on a three-acre wooded lot off Red Bridge Road in south Kansas City.Stenstrom called the house Stonestream, the English translation of his Swedish last name. The name also fit the property, with its rocky creek bed.A year and a half ago, illness caught up with the barrel-chested man. The hands that built the house no longer had the strength to keep it up. So Stenstrom and his family walked away, selling the home to a company that auctioned it off.Stonestream, like Fallingwater and other Frank Lloyd Wright homes, looks like it sprouted straight out of the landscape."http://www.kansascity.com/238/story/536345.html
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A-holes. Hey every group has to have one. And I have been elected to be the one. I should make that my tagline.
"I say I don't see the designers work directly because I do see kitchen layouts (and often the whole show) that are designed by the "house suppplier" of fixtures & equipment ( most common in franchise/chain restaurants) that the architechts tend to accept because they don't want to argue with & lose a steady customer. Mos to ftheose individuals have no clue how to put things together, they are only concerned with selling equipment and a half butted service."How true my family owned a restaurant for over 50 years. In that span the space was remodeled 4 times. And by far the best remodel was done by a guy that had an architectural background (not a licensed architect). The originality of the design, detailing and sense of space made the restaurant a memorable dining experience. Unfortunately, a designer from the restaurant equipment supplier wasn't as talented or sympathetic to the "dining experience the next time they remodeled and the quality of the architecture was diluted. The next two remodelings were far worse and were as you described a vehicle for the supplier to sell more junk.Again, having an architecture education makes me partial and each remodeling I pleaded with the boss (father) to hire an architect to no avail.
I was a helper on a house where the architect lived in a slipstream trailer onsite. the project was a couple of years long.
I think he could build a house.
There were three other trailers on site for the carpenters. I drove a moped out ( three hour ride) Monday morning and lived in a tent 5 days a week.
Geez, if it took two years to build a house, someone didn't know what they were doing. ;-)
When I worked as a construction field supervisor for a Mutual Self-Help Building Program and had to be on site three evenings and Sat and Sun each week, I drove an hour and set up a tent in a campground.
Then I discovered that some friends had moved into a Catholic Worker Farm nearby and moved my tent to their upper field until winter, at which time I did a quick renovation of an attached shed (the goat room) and lived in that for the duration of the 13 month job.
It took 13 months, but we built nine houses in that time, and with unskilled first-time home-owners.
Riversong HouseWright
Design * * Build * * Renovate * * ConsultSolar & Super-Insulated Healthy Homes
It was a nice house. They imported the roof tiles from Japan.
All of this architects houses were like that one. Can't remember his name.
"With the exception of some of the architects associated with Yestermorrow Design/Build School (where I teach), I've yet to meet an architect who knows how to build a house."
I assume that you're not surprised by that. I'm not. Most are well meaning but their education goes to grand schemes and unbuildable structures.
ciao, ted
Thank you for the reference. I'm relieved to hear that (hopefully) he wasn't completely insulted when I told him I couldn't afford it. He emailed me back today, and seems geniunely interested in working something out. I don't know if my numbers and his could ever meet, though, the Grand Canyon seems to be in the middle.
I intend to build it myself. (Getting good help around here, a whole 'nother topic), that's why I want the construction drawings.
Is the architect side of the industry affected like the building side? I wondered if the reason he was being so nice was because they needed the business.
Thank you,
Cindge
I guess that since I'm not a "builder" I wouldn't know what the "building side" of the economy is like. : )
We seem to be at our usual pace for projects, but I chalk that up to our fearless leader and his uncanny ability to work the schmooze and build those relationships. The economy ebbs and flows, as does our workload, just on a slightly different wavelength."It depends on the situation..."
Have not ever been in a position to hire an architect, but used to work for one.
The firm I worked for based compensation on a percentage of the project cost, which I believe had to be within guidelines set by the American Institute of Architects. The AIA should have consumer information on its website, if you're interested.
As others have said, there are many design-build firms and home designers available. In my experience with kitchens and bathrooms, I can't tell you that architect-produced plans were any better than the others. Basically, the plans I worked from showed a general lack of knowledge in the actual size of things, safety clearances, space allocation and proper layout.
So, be careful out there, and thanks for being such a model client!!
I hate to go here but, My opinion is that residential archy's can be a little bit overpriced. Or should I say alot overpriced.
I once had a guy give me a number of $7800.00 on a 1800 sqft finished basement (basic job ). I asked him if I could have some of what he was smoking!!!! (it's a good number if you can get it)
I've had some real shockers $$$$ in the past. I allways ask for justification. I've had these guys blow me out of the water budget wise on some big jobs that I did not get. Now I just have the customer pay them after my review.
Lou
"I once had a guy give me a number of $7800.00 on a 1800 sqft finished basement (basic job ). I asked him if I could have some of what he was smoking!!!! (it's a good number if you can get it)"But now I see you have started a thread looking for free design help on a basement job so you can resolve design and budgetary difficulties in progress...sometimes the designer is worth it. Depends how much he is doing for that seventy eight hundred
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
Come on piff, Throwing me under the bus!!! This design was an after thought (basement). The homeowner allready paid out 4 grand. So what if I'm trying to help the customer out. I'm hurt, I look up to you!!!! Let me go and get more tissues
-Lou
p.s. We have to submit an as built too. And the Architect wants another 1,000. I'm not getting involved in that though.
Sorry. My ears always perk up when I see ironies and paradoxes liekthat. No ill meaning intended. I looked at that other one a couple times and all i could think of was that somebody flubbed up on the design to have left you with this kind of problem.Which is the point of this thread. Issues like that should be worked out beforehand by the designer when possible and he should not be charging more to solve problems he created, unless there was a minimalist contract or hourly charges to begin with... all of which goes back to what the above post was saying about cheaper versions of design services.I charge for design work at my hourly rate, but a good and complete design job from me costs close to the same that a good architect here charges. I never argue that someone should use me because I am cheaper than an archy. They normally find me because they have seen and walked through my work or heard from previous customers.
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
My opinion is that residential archy's can be a little bit overpriced. Or should I say alot overpriced.
And, that opinion probably has more than a bit of empirical evidence behind it, in that Commercial architects' fees are generally higher than strict residential ones. For many offices, residential work is seen to "not pay much" so it is very unlikely to be billed at a competitive rate.
There are some strong "whys" in there in terms of how an office is run. The leading one would be in not having a "palette" of tried-n-true details on hnad, meaning that one of the "grown ups" involved has to detail more things. Also, since the work is less "bread and butter" it requires a lot more "principal" time, and those hours all have a much higher bill rate. Big, giant, "gotcha" all around.
Oh, and there's also the problem of the "priima donna" personality, an ugly reality out there; that personality has to charge exorbitantly, as every project is the last they'll do for that customer--not a recipe for low rates.Occupational hazard of my occupation not being around (sorry Bubba)
Buyer beware -
There is a great deal of misinformation in this thread about architectural services, not to mention gross generalizations. Some of the suggestions made here aren't legal in all places, for instance.
A lot of this has to do with regional differences too ... some of the hourly rates mentioned here are equal to what unskilled landscape labor goes for here or, another way of putting it 30% of what it costs to have a mechanic work on your car. No professional could make a living on that.
Construction is a collaborative process - it works best when owners, builders and architects all realize that, despite their differences, it takes a team to build with everyone bringing their skills and abilities to the table.
Gross generalizations ('architectural education isn't worthwhile' 'builders are usually out to screw you' 'owners are cheap') don't get us anywhere.
Jeff