Gents,
DW would like to install 3 windows in a stairwell, interior wall. The wall is non load bearing, the other side of said wall is part of a cathedral ceiling living room. The windows would basically be going into the ‘triangular’ section of the Gable wall. The windows would be 2′ wide or less.
What size header do I need?
Thanks- Saint
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Replies
I don't suppose you are lucky enough to have a 24" oc. wall framing there. If by chance you do then no header is needed. Just remove the drywall and either frame for windows or screw the window frame to the studs. Windows would be 22 3/8/" +/-
Coould do the same thing with 16" o.c. studding. Windows frames would be at 14 3/8 " +/-
No such luck. 2x6 wall 16" o.c.
Seems rather odd that an interior non-load bearing wall would be framed with 2x6s. Stranger things have happend though...
wet wall?DCG Your Neighbor's Contractor LLC
"A wrongdoer is often a man who has left something undone, not always one who has done something."--Marcus Aurelius
Without refering to my charts, the window opening may not be classified as load bearing, but it does bear the load of anything framed above.
Seems to me a minimum of 2 x 8 #2 SYP or equal.
IF
Big IF
you do indeed have a non-load bearing wall, you don't need a header.
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Hi
Said wall extends from first floor to roof, cathedral ceiling. Stairwell on opposite side of wall. Roof rafters paralell with stairwell. 2x4, not 2x6 as mentioned earlier. Non load bearing or am I missing something?
Thanks
Waht is supporting that cathedral roof?If it is a strucutural ridge beam then that "wall" (or a part of it) is supporting the roof..
.
A-holes. Hey every group has to have one. And I have been elected to be the one. I should make that my tagline.
I'm sure that I am missing more than you are! What I don't know is what is supporting the ridge beam? Is that part of theis wall and how does it relate to the holes you would be cutting open?I have attached a couple photos of a wall that fits the description you make of being parrallell with rafters, but notice that it also supports the ridge beam! Taking out most of the wall would not hamper the vertical load if the post under the ridge were left, but I would want to critically examine lateral loading if I did modify the wall. Lateral load planning, if you need it, might or might not be dealt with via a header.
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Hi,
I took a crawl through the attic, the wall is only supporting one roof rafter. The ridge rafter is not supported by a post @ either end. The small windows would be going in the upper part of the wall, say the triangular section... second floor level and above. I've attached a picture of the wall in question(I think). Thanks for your time
Yowsah!If you have a full carthedral ceiling and no posts under what should be a structural ridge beam, you have a lot of problems already. It could be that something unique was done to take care of things, but it could also be that some hack work came and swooped down to live at your house and it is so far being held together not by design but by luck and diaphraghm action. It is a house where I would not disturb a single thing without a qualified person doing a good study of all the interacting forces and load paths.Maybe that is a good frame carpenter and maybe it is a licensed structrual engineer. The more I learn, the less comfortable I am calling this a non-load bearing wall. It is only connected to one rafter, so there may not be much vertical roof load, but I see high odds that it is acting in lieu of rafter ties against lateral loading. The ridge with no posting supporting it is scariest so far. What size is it? Is this a salt box style home with that ceiling open only on that one side?
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I am wondering if in fact the OP actually has a ridge at the intersection of the upper flat ceiling plane and the cathedral plane.
Just looking at his pic from below doesn't answer the question.
It is quite conceivable that the flat ceiling plane is created by ceiling joists nailed to cathedral rafters that extend up beyond what we can see in his pic.
I know he said that the ridge is unsupported by posts, but he doesn't give the ridge location.
Your pics are quite clear in showing what "May" be one scenario, but that doesn't mean it is what he has.
Pics from the attic space would be much more helpful here.
The wall being located under a rafter does not automatically mean it is supporting the rafter. The rafter could be free span and the wall is simply a partition wall ie.: non-load bearing.
Just not enough information to make any judgment other than what you suggest .. get a local , knowledgable person to check it out.
Course you could try to talk DW into narrow windows that fit between the 16" oc. studs.
Hi,
The cathedral ceiling is this one room, couple feet less than 1/2 width of house. The ridge rafter for this room is 2x12 and is supported on one end by 2x6. I've got some constructrion pics i've been trying to locate. I'll post when I find them.
Regards
Yeah, do that,The style the one photo hionts at is something that can be framed ten or twenty different ways, and you have now called a "Ridge" JOIST and RAFTER the same name, neither of which is correct for a ridge, soooo....I'm not saying this to criticize you personally, but it is a hint that your lack of terminology probably also indicates a lack of basic framing/engineering knowledge to the degree that you may not even know what you are looking for.Again, nothing personal, but there is a lot to know yet from my POV. I almost first responded to go ahead and cutt'er open, but some instinct told me there is more going on here...How much of this is framed with those fir beams? Just a couple for show, or is this a hybrid timberframe?
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I hear where you're coming from. My first instinct was to rip right into it, followed closely by an 'I think I'll look into this a little further'. I enjoy the forum and the posts and respect the time you all take to answer questions.
I have a basic understanding of the load paths from roof to walls to foundation but am by no means an expert - that is why I ask first - rip open second.
The fir beams are purely decorative. Just for show in this room and kitchen.
Heres some of the construction pictures. They came out O.K. as they were digitally photgraphed from a previous picture - BD(before digital)
Nothing is easy with dial-up!!
Here's a shot from the attic
That's a real scalp scratcher you've got theere. It even throws in a little chin rubbing....There is something that still bothers me about that cathedral ridge.I can see that the photo in attic is from opposite end from where you show in the third labeled photo.The exterior view and florr framed show some of the methodology....Technicly, there should be a structural ridge there for that cathedral, but luick and all the adjacent angles and the short span along with diaphraghm actioon are keeping it all togeether as neear as I can tell. I don't see any reason you could not cut into the upper portion of that stairwell wall any way you want but DO NOT sever that floor joist/header .Whether by luck or by design, it is handling a lot of transferred stresses,I am sure. still shaking my head at that free ended ridge board that should be ridge beam
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Wait a minute - stop the presses. Unplug that sawsall and step back from the wall slowly...I see something.
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Yeah, something I don't like at all. Don't be cutting into that wall without an engineered stamp and plan for every stick and fastener. I gotta go get dinner and then a meeting. catch ya later to explain
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Wow, this is like a cliff hanger... "So tune in next week..."
jt8
"One of the fondest expressions around is that we can't be the world's policeman. But guess who gets called when suddenly someone needs a cop." -- Colin Powell
OK, here it is - and harder to explain than the miracle of birth...Now I can't see everything there, but what I do see is that the stairwell is located under the larger roof further back in the exterior shot. So the wall you are considering knocking about is an exterior wall as it projects further on up.In the attic, it is clear that they dnever finished framing that wall. There are no studs to back up the siding, only a piece of osb extending to stabilize the far top of that wall, nailed to a plate. But in theory at least, that is the wall that should be supporting the ridge in question. both ridges in fact.
In your interior frame photo I have indicated in a bright mauve colour the stud that I again indicate in the attic with same colour.I note that it appears as though the higher ridge is supported on 4x4s but that those do not seem ( from other photos) to be placed over any wall below. Maybe there is but it just doesn't show anywhere in photos.I then sketch in a sample of one way they could have supported a header and beam support when building this. It still does jnot solve for the question of why the cathedral ridgeis not sized toperform as a structural ridge. There are still parts of the whole I cannot see or begin to understand, but only speculate on, which is wasteful of time as often as not.End result is that all this load is transferring down that wall you are considering cutting into in bothe verticle and lateral directions with verticle compressionand lateral compression and tension. To some degree the portion of that wal that projects above the roof is acting as a diaphraghm or box beam in transferring loads to strange places. Loads that should be directed straigh down to foundation.You most definitely need to have any changes there engineered. I would want an engineer familiar with residential wood framing to study the whole entire setup if it were me. Any sheetrock cracks that keep coming back at stress points?
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FWIW..
I think the 4x4 standing on the upperstairs hall wall (front of house side of hall).If there is a header across the stairs at the top then the upper ridge is supported.
The rake section of wall, while not framed the way I would frame it, is non-bearing to my eyes. The OP's pic from the other end of the building shows a similiar construction technique. I think that what you have labeled as a stud is just a nailer for the osb.
Follow the line of the intersection of ceiling joist/rafter cathedral intersection in the OP's pics and you will see that in the upper hall way area the hall wall is located to the rear of the house from the intersection point as are the 4x4 posts.
While I don't want to disagree with the apparant need for a post under the cathedral rafter, nor the need for engineering. I do wonder if the rafter coming from the rear of the house that is just on the other side of the chimney isn't supported in it's full length, or doesn't have a post under it at the corner of the chimney that allows it to cantileiver to carry the load of the ridge. Impossible to determine from the pics.
I am not nearly enough of an engineer to know that answer even if it was supported there.
Just my take on the photos and the construction.
Your solution does work well.
Like I said, there is far too much there that I can't see from here, but I got lost about halfway through your descriptionfront/rear/etc.Maybe tonight when I can get the puictures back out and focus on this...
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"Now I can't see everything there, but what I do see is that the stairwell is located under the larger roof further back in the exterior shot. So the wall you are considering knocking about is an exterior wall as it projects further on up."
Correct
In the attic, it is clear that they dnever finished framing that wall. There are no studs to back up the siding, only a piece of osb extending to stabilize the far top of that wall, nailed to a plate. But in theory at least, that is the wall that should be supporting the ridge in question. both ridges in fact. In your interior frame photo I have indicated in a bright mauve colour the stud that I again indicate in the attic with same colour.
I note that it appears as though the higher ridge is supported on 4x4s but that those do not seem ( from other photos) to be placed over any wall below. Maybe there is but it just doesn't show anywhere in photos. 4x4's in question are centered over structureal beam with load paths to foundation
I then sketch in a sample of one way they could have supported a header and beam support when building this. It still does jnot solve for the question of why the cathedral ridgeis not sized toperform as a structural ridge. There are still parts of the whole I cannot see or begin to understand, but only speculate on, which is wasteful of time as often as not.
End result is that all this load is transferring down that wall you are considering cutting into in bothe verticle and lateral directions with verticle compressionand lateral compression and tension. To some degree the portion of that wal that projects above the roof is acting as a diaphraghm or box beam in transferring loads to strange places. Loads that should be directed straigh down to foundation.
You most definitely need to have any changes there engineered. I would want an engineer familiar with residential wood framing to study the whole entire setup if it were me. Any sheetrock cracks that keep coming back at stress points? Yes. Crack directly beneath area of cathedral ridge you noted as requiring header support ( the end of ridge in attic photo that is not supported).
I will be turning to structural engineer to evaluate structure before proceeding. If you are still curious I also located design prints for the structure. If interested I can post tomorrow. Thanks again for your time, patience and expertise.
Regards
Saint,
I am very curious if your design prints show a post the cathedral ridge , or some other structural method of supporting that ridge.
yes, am further interested.Good that the 4x4s are fully supported to foundation.I'm betting the plans were inadequate at this point and framers just did it as fast as they could to get the check and run. Suprised it passed inspection like that though.You have inspections there?
Was this a custom for you and you have the plans? or did you buy a spec on the market?
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Yeah the Framers worked their tails off - Dawn to dusk just about
Building inspector and fire inspector checked the place out .
This was a custom job for us. The GC we eventually chose to build has a good rep and is still in business. We checked out several of his houses and were impressed with his attention to detail - or so I thought. Good feedback from owners etc. I believe he was even home builder of the year. He didn't crank out several houses a year - probably three or so if I recall correctly.
Had a heck of a time getting this one to upload
Well one thing is the framers left the collar ties out .
Labled "C" in section "B/7"
At least I don't see the on your pic of the attic space.
I picked up on that too..
Nothing at all on the prints about the cathedral ridge supports?
Might try asking your builder to pay you a visit , that is if he is still around. If he comes by take him on a tour and ask him what is holding things up and why the missing pieces.
He did not build the house according to the approved plan . Sometimes things get missed, but the missing pieces in your house are fairly easily remedied by him.
That's correct, no indications for support for that ridge
Thanks guys - I'll let you know how I make out on this - Appreciate your time and efforts
Saint
Please do that , I am interested in the outcome.
I don't see the collar ties that are in the drawing either and wonder how this passed inspection'Where you see the ridge labeled A in the section drawintgs, what does the note for A say?
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Note 'A' specs the size for the ridge - 2x12
Keep it simple and inexpensive. Make an "I" beam out of 2x6.
Best to you and yours, Chris.
Some say I know too much? Can you ever?
Now read the rest of the thread and see what you think
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Yup, the pics let more than the "non load bearing" in his origional post.Best to you and yours, Chris.
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