*
Gabe –
In the section entitled “Content Policy”, FHB indicates the desired purpose of this Board. And I quote “…This Site is intended to provide a forum for a healthy and open exchange of information, opinions and comments…”
Steve’s direct query to yourself and Freddy Lu was an attempt to engage both of you in this healthy and open exchange. Fred has attempted to this by posting his methods for determining heat loss/gain. You lambasted Fred for this formula saying it was only a “quesstimate” and that by using them (formulas), you would “end up in bankruptcy.”
However, you have stated previously that you could provide your expertise for heat loss/gain calculations, but only for money. This leads me to believe that you think you can actually calculate heat loss/gain using methods you have developed/learned. Please clarify this apparent discrepancy using one of the following alternatives:
1. You do have a method for determining heat loss/gain but will only provide it in exchange for money.
2. It is not possible to determine heat loss/gain.
If your answer was #1 above, then I question your contribution to this thread.
If your answer was #2, then please provide specific reasons why the formula provided by Fred does not work. This is the method by which most theories have evolved – someone lays out an idea and others try to rip it apart. If the theory is ripped apart, the creator goes back to the drawing board. If not, it becomes accepted. Since you so vehemently agree to disagree with Fred, please rip it apart.
Waiting for your contribution,
-Lee
P.S. You do not need to call people names.
Replies
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Profound!! Many arguments in the little boys clubs on the internet could use this post. Great dichotomy. Typical gangland warfare and behaviour.
*
Joe,
The way I see it, it's about a bazillion
poly/batt/vent apologists against a small handful of
others who would rather use something that actually
performs. Wait! Maybe that's why there
seems to be a higher than average correlation between
cells advocates and MacIntosh users ;-)
thinking different(ly)
Steve
*FredL,Seeing that your hellbent on antagonizing everyone who stands up to your ridiculous claims, answer this question.Do you not beleive that 90% of the houses in North America, could be adequatly heated with a 150,000 btu heating system or not?No formulas, no long winded BS, just a yes or a no.
*Steve,What calculation or formula do you multiply to get a bazillion.Did you take the time to examine the R-2000 program yet, I'm still waiting for your comments.
*
Actually, I figure a 1500 - 2000 ft sq house can easily be constructed to be satisfied by a 25,000 BTU heating unit.
Tedd
*
Gabe,
Why?...Why are you so upset with Fred L???...How about adding to topics...I'm watching Century as I type this....War and hate...Not that great a thing to me....
Lets try peace?
J
*Elementary semathtics...a billion times a zillion equals a bazillion...He may have got the formula from Building Science CorporationNear the stream,J
*JackBuddy. . . hit the delete button on this one pal,or I'm gonna reach through your monitor and cuff you big time. . . your gonna hate yourself in the morning for gettin all gooey gushy. . . I promise to delete this one of mine too(o). . . no one will know.your sheet-less bud-Patrickp.s. doesn't knowing that your knee-jerk pal has been the common denominator in every bit of nastiness here over the last year make you just a little suspicious?
*Dear FredL,It took you nearly 200 words to say "no" to my answer.Now in 200 words or less, without any contrived formulae, tell me why a 150,000 btu would not be able to supply the heat requirements of 90% of the houses in North America?
*Dear FredL,There you go giving opinions when you haven't even looked at the product. Your ignorance of the program is proof that you either don't understand it or never took the time to look at it.It's unfortunate that you think, the entire US government is out to get you, the most popular building standard, in Canada, is not being built here and you feel a need to invent words (polybattventism) to support your theories.You're also dead wrong on my involvement with the R-2000 program, I personally know, that there isn't a better national program in the world and I endorse it to the point that I wouldn't design a house that wasn't to R-2000 standards.
*Gabe, Patrick, Joe...Your direct hatred of any one individual or any one individual who does not support hate is not the "highlight" of my day as I particapate here...Please understand that I am an individual....Flame me for me.Flame away,J
*Gabe,A bazillion is a peculiar American idiomatic expression meaning a very large number of something.I clicked through to the R-2000 link you gave the other day, but it gave no specifics other than directions to write for more info. Is there detailed info online anywhere? I infer from the discussions here that it relies heavily on poly and caulk for air-sealing, which I've expressed my reservations about in previous threads.Steve
*Steve,Just use the find option and type in R-2000 and navigate around. Lots of information, not trying to convert anyone just inform.
*FredL,Is the question too complicated for you or are you dodging this one too?
*Good Evening FreddyLI see you have been busy with your hate mail again.First paragraph, WRONG, I do participate in the R-2000 program.Second pargraph, WRONG, I never said that I never had a house pressure tested.WRONG, I do know why it would be stupid to expect a bathroom exhaust fan to ventilate an entire house. WRONG, I do know that a 150,000 btu furnace will meet the requirements of 90% of the houses in North America. And so do you, that's why your shorts are in a knot.WRONG, I love math, it's my favourite subject, it's quesstimates disguised as accurate formulas that I hate.WRONG, I'm not disqualified from anything.Third paragraph, WRONG, but of course you already knew that.Fourth paragraph, Because it's the highest standard in the country. That's the fundamental difference between us FreddyL, I aspire to the highest level of construction and you depend on the lowest.Now answer the question, FreddyL, if you can in 200 words or less, why won't a 150,000 btu furnace handle the heating requirement of 90% of the houses in North America?
*Gabe,Independent that I am I believe that the r2000 ideas probably work better than standard methods...But I have some questions...By the way what do you do and where do you live?...Are you a builder, carpenter, hands on or GC...Do you own a home building company??Have you been the lead carpenter on one or hundreds of homes??...Just need a reference point...I am a small time GC and hands on carpenter,electrician, plumber, etc being that I have built mostly log homes and remodeled mostly conventional 2x construction...I have not built more than 20 homes or major projects since beginning in 1984 but some of them were large multi-projects lasting two years or more...So I'm a typical small time self employed grown up kid playing with all the grown up tool toys and loving it and loving learning as much of the new thinking along with understanding past thinking kinda guy...More questions...R2000...How many have you built? What part did you do? What specific site and page is the best for explaining the exact construction details involved??? Or just list the details here your self in a r2000 topic...thanks Gabe,Near the stream,J
*Gabe and Fred,Either of you or both from the Yugoslavian neck of the woods?...1000 years of sandkicking and they love it even more than life itself...It's a way of life.Just my thoughts, near the stream,Jps I have made three new topics to see if I can separate the two opposing views, and the hate...Can I get you two to move your thoughts to the appropriate arenas for a day or two...It is Easter! May you and your loved ones have a beautiful and blessed weekend!
*Jack,
Joseph FuscoView Image
*Joe,Glad you're following me around as I post to Gabe...Hey, I just zipped by your neighborhood twice this last week and forgot to stop by and drink a beer or two with you....If you are ever up in the Lake George/Saratoga region let me know and plan on welcoming pint.I know we're really of the same heart somehow as I have pictures also of many a proud project that I have been part of...If I get my website up soon, I'm sure you'll agree...Hey, I am doing my tennis courts now if you have any knowledge you'd like to share, please by all means share it with us.thanks, Happy Easter to you too.JNear the stream
*Jack,
Joseph FuscoView Image
*Gabe,I'd appreciate it if you could add to a couple of your responses above. Regarding the R2000 program, is there a "certification" program and is that what you mean by "participating"? I seem to recall from my reading years ago that the program does include an independent testing program for true certification, not unlike a UL label. I'd really like to know how many house - or what percentage of the house - you build have this "certification".Secondly, how many of the houses you've built have been tested with a blower door? Fred said he deduced from your posts that you don't have your houses tested with a blower door and your posts suggest that he is wrong. I think it would be really useful and in the sharing spirit of this board if in fact you did reveal that you believe in blower door and other diagnostic testing of houses. Lightening strike me dead, but just by letting us all know that you and Fred agree on the usefulness of blower door testing would be quite valuable.Thanks for sharing. Bill
*Jack-by-da-streamYou chose to "take sides", when it was totally unnecessary, and flirted with being an apologist for that side, when that too was unnecessary. Now you're sitting on the fence (where you might well have stayed in the first place)and wondering why others include you in their observations. You're such a gadfly!! Hatred is a mighty strong word, pal, so listen up: there's No hatred ofi "any one individual" coming from here, bud, either direct or indirect. There aren't enough hours in my jam-packed life to waste on that foolishness. What there will always be, though, is a very healthy dislike of self serving obfuscation, double standards and bafflegab and those that wallow in them!!! And of course the well deserved contempt for sand kicking bullies who get sand kicked back at them and then start whining for help!!! i "Whinerization"b In search of a level playing field for all participants-Patrick (not guilty by association)
*yes, but with such a nice indentation!
*Patrick,Thanks for the flames onEaster...The Man who we honor on this day just got nails and a painful crown!Gadfly that I am...What honorable title would you give the rest of the players in this sandbox?As we all know you don't like Fred either and as I have participated here it seemsto be because the three of you have much success with fiberpolyventism building methods...So Fred'strying to be done with FPV as much as he can be and tells others about why way too strongly for you three great builders with great barks and probably pretty good right punches...I happen to be in the middle because I am in the middle...I, like you three, have built with FPV most of my building career...But I have also thought all along there must be a better way...Well SIP's are better and foam is better but then the cost is much more...So I search on for better and I think dense packing cels and some of Gene's ideas along with some of my own ideas in different combinations just may be my future system of choice...Yes Fred L tells his opinions like they are facts...But he has way more study and hands on time with what he talks about than most if not all of us...soto me and many others, he's worth his weight in DP if not gold.We all would save so much time if we let each other say our peace, counter with our own experiences and theories verses all the babyish name calling, punching, kicking, "I got to let Fred and anyone reading this know that I think he'sa jerk, crap"...We all know that you three have zero respect for Fred...Why not just avoid the energy area since none of you feel there is anything new worth learningabout? (I know, cause you need to warn us all)... And if R-2000 is as viable anoption as I keep hearing, then lets hear about the details involved and some personal experience of people who own these homes, their heating bills, their air quality,....And those of you that actually hands on build R-2000, speak up and tell us the good, the bad, and the ugly of it all....Lastly, I love learning, but need to improve my debating techniques and my typing, and spelling so flame and or debate, or drop out of the discussions...ofcourse you have that freedom, For it is not for this Gadfly to grant...Freedom is everything, near the stream,J
*Happy Easter FredL. Fred of late I find myself wondering if we have learned anything over the last 20 years. With few exceptions, I find that most of thes conferences are rehashing what we knew 20 years ago. I was talking to someone who attended and presented papers at Thermal Performance of the Exterior Envelopes of Builings, VII. He said although there were some good papers presented it is as though one were back in 1972. One of the few areas of significant progress is window technology. The area that needs the greatest effort is A*T*T*I*T*U*D*E, and a willingness to question received wisdom.This is not an absolute rejection--as some cranks would suggest--but a willingnes to see that it is not the Holy Grail. I re- thought mny 1.2 HHI for the 1st Leger house. We indirectly heated the basement. Incorporating that area into the equation shows the HHI to be 0.65. By the bye. The formula also works if you divide the house's Btu consumption by the square footage and divide the result by degree days: 10,900,000/1200 sq. ft./7000DD = 0.648.For years the Swedish standard of a good performing house was 3 Btu.sq.ft./DD. The Leger house achieves 0.65 Btu, (and we've done some even lower than this: the Haskel House in Merrimack, New Hampshire is 0.5 not including the basement) without cases and cases of caulking for sealing. A change in framing techniques and plenty of dense pack cellulose takes care of that.There is no reason that a house today is not at 1 minimum. This can be accomplished with off the shelf materials. PUR foam for fenestration and other sealing is as aboutnhigh tech as we get. I certinly would not reject the very high tech Siuspended Particle Device windows. Note that all the windows in the Leger house were not lowE. Worse yet all of the South side window were double-hungs. GeneL.
*Jack,
Joseph FuscoView Image
*Jack-by-da-streamFlames??? Man you must have some thin skin, I don't even own a flame thrower.You're absorbing waaay too(o) much from your buddy Fred, marginalising people by 'grouping and dismissing' is one of his favourite tactics. I have found the need to draw attention to his vitriol on several occasions over the last year, and each time, either he, or one of his defenders has tried to make it into a i batts vs. cells battle,because I've had the nerve, on occasion, to challenge/debate some points of his weatherization credo. I've had a few debates with Gene L. also, but he never finds it necessary to get insulting or dismissive!!! Each time I have had to restate, for the benefit of those with convenientlyi selective amnesiathat I am b not wedded to f/g and poly,have b never liked the rationale behind venting attics, and plan on trying dp cells in the near future. . . and if I seem to be championing "polybattventism", I'm not. . . I just don't automatically accept sweeping statements wrapped in pedantic bafflegab. Oh, and just because I'm a Canadian builder doesn't mean that I fully embrace the R-2000 system either, because I don't!!! My problem with your dear knee-jerk Fred is his insufferable arrogance, his 'cheap shots' and vitriolic diatribes, his selective, but always unwarranted, rudeness to innocent post-ers, and his penchant for starting fights. In the past when he has chosen to get personally nasty with me I chose to hit the 'kill switch'. . . by refusing to answer and thereby get dragged down to his childish level I effectively ended his grandstanding. . . he gets to think that he has won,(which is obviously omni important for him) and I get to leave him dangling in his own noxious fumes. That's why it was so laughable when he accused Fusco of being an i "Alpha Male" and why it's even more laughable that having started this recent round of nastiness with Gabe (all those who think that i who started what doesn't mattershould re-think that position - doubters please re-read the thread where Gabe refers to one of Gene'si methodsas stupid, and Fred rides in screaming that Gabe has called Gene stupid. . . if that knee jerk by Fred had never been posted,b none of the rest would have developed) he has run into someone who is, unfortunately for all of us, quite willing to descend to his level and stay there. Now that he can't beat Gabe into submission, he becomes obsequios and wheedling and tries to wrap himself in the clothes of the victim, and, presumably, get the forum to agree to kick Gabe out of the sandbox, because the teacher just isn't paying attention.Make no mistake, I am not an apologist for Gabe (nor for Joe Fusco before him) and I disagree with pretty much everything he has to say about venting and Gene's theories. His style of saying itis often offensive, but I'm way more offended by sandbox bullies who get nasty when they don't get their way, and then go butt kissing to the teacher when that too goes against them, and your dear Fred is just such a person, and would be whether he was promoting cells, or snails. Even on this 'disconnected' internet, personalities will always show through. And what incredible(but typical) arrogance to assume that the whole board is going to falter because he's beingi victimizedby Gabe. I too get emails from "lurkers" who want advice but don't want to get scewered by Fred.b FHb. . . "Fred's Homeboard"i There's not much wrong with Fred's credo, he just needs a better editor/script writer.-Patrick
*Patrick by da keyboard,Thanks for the not so brief post! Well said but on the edge of name calling at Fred you must admit...If you read all the posts you will see that flame's by Fred are not well liked by me any more than you like them...What we all have to do is just realise that Fred is willing to flame all to easily if someone pokes him or his solid beliefs....I prefer not to poke Fred for only his flaming, not his beliefs no matter how adament he is in his posting...If you three and you know who you are just stopped flipping Fred out, what would happen? Would any of us lose money, friends, respect, beer drinking time, etc??? Would someone build a home with DP cels and come back here and blame us all for not warning them that Fred is a fanatic and caused them some huge mess???Let's get back to the building and beer issues...Happy Easter for the enth time, near the stream,J
*Jack-by-da-(remote(?)-keyboardCorrect me if I'm wrong, but you seem to be advocating letting bullies with high profiles have there way because it's i easier. . .you may recall that I cautioned Gabe (many moons ago) about using Fred's name in vain, but I hope even you would admit that bullies that go running to the teacher need to be slapped, not stroked!!briefly-Patrick
*Patrick,As you well know I only advocate slapping with a quick follow up of beer handed over!...Sort of a built in "Yah, I think you and your ideas stink but I like ya anyways!"...takes the edge off...Near the stream, eyes half closed,J
*Jack-by-the-bedi "I think you . . .stink but I like ya anyways!" ??You sound almost. . . naw it couldn't be. . . your not Canadian too(o) are ya?? Just when we're tryin to wean ourselves of the nicey-nicey everyone else starts pickin up on it. . . NOT!-P
*Well all, I am going to try to do the impossible and have you all help me redisign my present home and heating system...I have and old York heat pump with 35k electric resistance back up that is killing me with cold air and high bills for five of the months that it runs...I am thinking of propane or oil....installation cost is a big factor, and I would like to heat at least half if not all of the main floor with staple under radiant pex tubing....Am thinking large water heater and chimney out the sidewall...I would like to know the heat that my 35kw electric is equal to...And I would like to figure out what my house really needs for btus and what I might be able to upgrade it to with lots of labor and less in materials...A starting point for help...I will try to figure out what Gene and Fred have posted as far as formulas go.Near the stream,J
*ha hah aha ahaha ahah haha....Ok I'm laughing...now shutup wise guy!!!!! haha ahahahreally close to the sheets!!!Good night patrick buddy!!!J
*Jack,Staple-up pex is nice heat, but the materials cost will kill you. Plain old hot water baseboards are an inexpensive way to get clean quiet heat. But the baseboards can be butt-ugly. I did 1700 sf in basebaords for less than it was going to cost to do 600 SF in Pex (Wirsbo).Steve
*...but the warm floors...nice.There are staple-ups where you can omit the heat transfer plates. Saves a few dollars in materials and time in labor without a noticeable difference in heating costs in the two applications, either. I'll admit, not a scientific comparison, just comparing the heating costs of two similar houses, one with, the other without. Regards, Mongo
*
100% Energy being discussed here...Ask Fred L about the pertinent data and scientific thermal equations that weigh into figuring heat loss or gain.
*OK, here's one for you,3500 SF house, 175 years old. 2 Stories, 1750/sf each.Central New York State. Design temperature of -10 degrees. Heat to 68 degrees.2x6 walls with insulation rated at R19 (DP cells). Clapboards on studs. No sheathing, no house wrap.29 single glazed windows @ 3'x 5.5' with single glazed wooden storm windows for a total glass area of about 500 sf.Total door area, uninsulated, 300 sf, about half of that area is single pane sidelights and glass on the doors.Ceiling heights, 8' 3" downstairs, 12 foot to the rafter plate/20 foot to the peak cathedral ceilings upstairs. R/30 in the rafters. DP Cells. Agressive air sealing.Full cellar under half, crawlspace under half. Fieldstone foundation walls with no insulation. No insulation in floors.Hot water/baseboard heat.House occupied by two adults, 9 cats, two dogs. Orientation: gable end faces NW. Full exposure on all sides (no trees to speak of).Steve
*That sounds about dead on the money, Fred.I had it worked up by three people when I started this project, none of whome charged me anything, let alone 6000 dollars Canadian.#1 was the heating supply house that sold me all the piping and controls. They came up with 122K based on the "leaky old windows" fudge factor.#2 was Wirsbo when I was considering underfloor radiant heat. They came up with about 100K, assuming levels of tightness inherent with good new construction. Still couldn't squeeze enough BTU's through the 1 1/2 inch thick pine floors in the kitchen to make it worthwhile.#3 was a retired plumber friend of my father-in-law. He had the most conservative estimate of about 130K. He was an old-schooler who believes in the bigger the capacity the better.It was all just to determine the size of the baseboards in the individual rooms, as I had picked up a used Weil-McLean boiler of 145K Net IBR BTU rating several years back for 450 bucks.I went with 3# since the house will be way loose for years (it's a 20 year project, probably).Now all I have to do is get the house tight. By the time that happens, I'll be ready to buy a newer, higher-efficiency more appropriately sized boiler. I'll have the first floor done by the end of this summer. The huge upstairs is in about the condition of many Central New York barns, and may take years of nights and weekends.Thank you for a useful, pleasant and illuminating discussion.StevePS: Wanna be Cat #10 has been hanging around begging to be admitted to the "House of Shangle" as we like to call it, but I refuse. 9 is enough.
*Thanks for proving my point, Steve.Tradesmen who visited the site, couldn't come up with an exact figure to agree on, and you ended up going bigger to be on the safe side.How the hell did you think, your scenerio would have been anything, but a quesstimate?In our business, people who rely on guesstimates, end up in bankruptcy.
*The only point you made, Gabe, was that you were unwilling to stick your neck out.Steve
*Only do it for money.
*Gabe - In the section entitled "Content Policy", FHB indicates the desired purpose of this Board. And I quote "…This Site is intended to provide a forum for a healthy and open exchange of information, opinions and comments…" Steve's direct query to yourself and Freddy Lu was an attempt to engage both of you in this healthy and open exchange. Fred has attempted to this by posting his methods for determining heat loss/gain. You lambasted Fred for this formula saying it was only a "quesstimate" and that by using them (formulas), you would "end up in bankruptcy." However, you have stated previously that you could provide your expertise for heat loss/gain calculations, but only for money. This leads me to believe that you think you can actually calculate heat loss/gain using methods you have developed/learned. Please clarify this apparent discrepancy using one of the following alternatives:1. You do have a method for determining heat loss/gain but will only provide it in exchange for money.2. It is not possible to determine heat loss/gain.If your answer was #1 above, then I question your contribution to this thread. If your answer was #2, then please provide specific reasons why the formula provided by Fred does not work. This is the method by which most theories have evolved - someone lays out an idea and others try to rip it apart. If the theory is ripped apart, the creator goes back to the drawing board. If not, it becomes accepted. Since you so vehemently agree to disagree with Fred, please rip it apart. Waiting for your contribution,-Lee P.S. You do not need to call people names.
*Fred, et asl. The 1977 Leger House has an HHI of 1.2.Wirsbo has free software. I've installed it on this computer but haven't used it yet. GeneL.
*Sorry to see the virus has breached this thread as well.-Rob
*Good Afternoon Lee,This exchange you refer to was originally started by FredL. And has excalated because I do not back down from any self professed expert who doe not use facts to back up his advise to others and makes ridiculous claims regarding the effects of Poly, fibreglass and ventilation.The direct answer to your comment is number 2.You cannot give an exact calculation of heat loss etc. without measuring on site.The ridiculous exercise by Steve was a prime example of this.90% of the houses in this country would be served by a 150,000 btu unit. So if I were to state, "your house will need a 150,000 btu furnace, I'd be right 90% of the time. Wow, does that make me an expert.I don't think so. What makes me worth the money that they pay me is in the honesty I give them when I work on their projects.I don't sell books, I don't work for any suppliers or manufacturers, I don't use scare tactics to sell cellulose over fibreglass, I don't limit myself to fibreglass as I have recommended cellulose on many projects, I don't make outlandish claims regarding energy cost and I don't care for those that do.As I suggested to others, check out the R-2000 sites and tell me what you think of it.
*"I don't use scare tactics to sell cellulose over fibreglass, I don't limit myself to fibreglass as I have recommended cellulose on many projects,...."What are the situations you believe fiberglass has advantages or disadvantages in respect to cellulose? Or Foams? -Rob
*Dear Rob,I prefer fibreglass in the wall cavities and I prefer cellulose in the ceilings. If the house is a 1 1/2 level, then I put fibreglass in both. I never install anything that blocks or restricts ventilation. Basements I only use SM. Did you check out the R-2000 sites?
*Dogmatist's
Joseph FuscoView Image
*Shame on you, Joe. That should read "Breaking the to(o) long rule." :)Rich Beckman