Hello everyone,
Let me introduce myself. I am Cody Hovde, living and trying to make a living in Detroit Lakes, Minnesota. I am a member of the Air Guard. Upon returning on Christmas Eve, from a six month deployment I learned that my civilian employer had closed down the company. After a month long job search, I decided to do something I like. I became a handyman. The yellow pages has me listed under handy person, but I’m not politically correct so I call my business Cody the Handyman. I have helped to remodeled a couple of houses in years past and enjoy building things. I have run a small seasonal business before, and it was successful for the most part. Being a handyman seemed like a good choice. I wanted to produce something and not be in the service sector of the economy. Also, no employees, so no headaches there.
It was slow to start this winter, but now I am as busy as I want to be. I just hope the work keeps coming this winter. I have a general contractor that wants me to work for him full-time. I work with him from time to time, and I always learn something. Well for that matter, I lean something on every job, those tuition payments someone spoke of earlier. I have two question, well actually I have a hundred questions, but I will limit myself to only two, for tonight. I will make a separate post for the second question
When don’t I need to use concrete to set a fence post? I understand that an inch and a quart post for a chainlink fence will need concrete. But the farmer who set a used rail road tie as a post in his pasture isn’t using concrete. So somewhere in-between must be the cut off. Also won’t the frost push up on the jagged edges of the concrete and in time make a fence unlevel? Setting a post for a deck I would use those round cardboard tubes (insert fancy name here) so the concrete is nice and smooth, giving the frost less to push up on.
Thanks,
Cody
Replies
Hi Cody, Welcome to Breaktime.
You're a little slow on the draw here as many of the regulars have retired for the night. Might want to try getting the questions on earlier in the evening for more responses.
Cheers.
"sobriety is the root cause of dementia.", rez,2004
"Geodesics have an infinite proliferation of possible branches, at the whim of subatomic indeterminism.",
Jack Williamson, The Legion of Time
Welcome Cody,
Re fenceposts in concrete, it all depends on the situation. What's yours?
SamT
Welcome Cody, the concrete answer is a long one, see you tomorow. I'm on my way to bed.
but briefly, fence posts are different than porch support posts, and steel fence posts are different than wooden fence posts.
And
Thanks for your service to country.
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Frost jacking would be minimized if you have no fines (clay or silt) around or under the post. So over-excavate and back fill with clean gravel.
Does the backfill provide the lateral support you need? Depends on the depth of the hole, soil strength, lateral loads and, as you noted, post diameter.
Most posts don't have a lot of lateral forces on them. But the corner post sure do. So something bigger and/or deeper and/or with diagonal bracing in the corners would help a lot. Ranchers know fencing. Look at how they do it. Extra strength in the corner and light and cheap on the long straight runs.
Often people don't dig posts deep enough. They'll spend 125% more for a 6-foot 6x6 instead of a 6-foot 4x4. When just setting an 8-foot 4x4 two feet deeper would have done much more good and only cost 33% more. Fence posts generally don't snap off, so they don't need to be bigger in diameter. They lean, so they need to be deeper or in concrete.
Or, if you want more wood in the ground, sister on some 2x4 PT on the below grade portion.
Hey Cody,
We build fence out in Colorado, and our stated frost line is around 32". Although I don't think it has it that in my life around Fort Collins. Every post we set goes in concrete, except T-posts for barbed wire fence and the like, they get driven. I have never had posts that heaved, but I have seen it happen, but only when the posts was around 12" deep. The depth of the hole should be a function of both frost line, and height and type of fence. A six foot tall cedar privacy fence will have much more wind resistance than a six foot chain link fence, so the posts should be well set. Since 4x4 are 8' long, you can set them around 30" deep with allowance for picket reveal above top rail. Most of the time we build commercial chain link fence where we follow specs, and they always spec out 36" deep in 3000 psi concrete with top of footing crowned to shed water.
Hope this helps.
Concrete is good.
Cole
Cole Dean
Dean Contracting
This is one of those questions where you'll get a hundred different answers. The guy I work with always sets his pressure treated posts in concrete. I've learned that setting them in gravel is better and that's how I do it when I work alone. The key thing is to get the bottoms below frost. (That way, they don't heave, whether in concrete or not.) (The sahpe and roughness of the concrete doesn't matter much as long as the bottom is flat and the hole somewhat simetrical, in my opinion. The fancy word you're looking for is "Sonotube". The nice thing about Sonotube is that only the concrete is below grade and the wood or metal is attached with anchors to the concrete-- so less worry about rot or corrosion.)
My feeling is that gravel allows drainage around the posts and prevents rotting (yeah, even though they're P.T.). I see a lot (have replaced a lot) of posts, even P.T., that were set in concrete. The concrete traps water, especially when the post shrinks and leaves a gap between it and the concrete. Water sits in there and sooner or later the post rots, usually right at ground level. I've heard that what really destroys wood is the wet and dry cycle at the top of the soil. Supposedly if its always wet, it can't rot because the rot causing fungi need some air.
Anyway, welcome. Good luck with your business--I'm pretty much in the same game, but do some remodeling too--and everything from setting trusses and roofing to cutting down trees and big television antenae!
"My feeling is that gravel allows drainage around the posts and prevents rotting (yeah, even though they're P.T.). I see a lot (have replaced a lot) of posts, even P.T., that were set in concrete."
But a lot of places in my area you would be in solid clay. So the unless this is a high place you risk the chance that the gravel hole would fill with water and set for days.
Thanks for the help so far. This is a great web site and a fun crew to be a part of. I bumped this up because now I have more questions about setting fence post than I did before I posted this question.
Specifically I am rebuilding a privacy fence that blew down in a storm. It had 4x4 post, they broke above grade. The fence on the other side of the property has 6x6 post. So it was easy to figure out witch size post to use. There is 7 feet of post exposed above grade so I will use 10' post and hope I dig the hole 3 feet deep. I will settle for 2.5' and cut them if I have to. My post hole digger only has a 3 foot handle and there are ornamental shrubs on one side and a elevated flower bed on the other side. Is one bag of cement per hole enough? Then fill the rest of the hole with what? Gravel, pee rock, or sand. This home has a perfect sugar sand beach that the H O will let me use the sand for his fence, but will sand have enough lateral support? Anyone every just dump the bag of cement in the hole then back fill and let the cement draw moister out of the ground to set up.
It would be impractical to get below the frost line here. 5 foot for foundations , but the frost will go way deeper than that.
Thanks for the education,
Cody
Hello again Cody, I can get more specific now Knowing that you are talking fence and not foundation.
2.5" deep is not enough for a 7' high fence post. Get it at least three feet down.
I tell people to never set any wood fence post in concrete. as mentioned above, the crete will trap water against the post. The more impostant thing is to use gravel for backfill. I hear that it is more common in the midwest to use crete arouind the posts for some reason, but I have seen way too many posts damaged prematurly from having it set in crete.
And the crete really won't do much good either. After five or ten years what willl happen is that the trapped water between crete and post will have frozen often enough that the expansion splits it apart with cracks radiating from the post corners out leaving you with several pieces of concrete instead of one collar.
So it is unessesary, potentially damaging, and won't help.
With a three foot handle on the digger, plus the depth of the metal spoons, you can easily dig a four foot deep hole. i've done five footers with same post hole digger. So three feet will be a snap. if the soil is hard packed clayu or has rocks, you might need a long steel digging bar that around here is called a crowbar, but might have another name where you are.
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
Cody,
What Piffin said.
In yer situation, you'll have probably have good drainage and gravel will prevent frost heave.
For the footing, yes you can drop a dry bag of sakcrete in the bottom and it will set fine.
A half days rental on a gas auger will drill all your holes with less damage to the gardens than tramping aroud with a clamshell post hole digger.
SamT
Piff
Not sure what you think of this <shuddering...lol> but I always add concrete about six inches from top of grade down to keep the post stable and secure.
I've never had a problem with that technique.
I did about 30 PT posts 20sumpin' years ago on my first house and I see the posts are still in and stable.
Be well
andyThe secret of Zen in two words is, "Not always so"!
http://CLIFFORDRENOVATIONS.COM
Anchor Fence company had an instl manual for chain link fence & thier req./sugestion is for the holes to be tapered - lager at the bottom that the top by several inches, My dad worked for them for 40 + years & I know that when I have gone to remove some of the fence posts that he has set on some of his properties to add gates .He had set the post with this reverse dovetail style hole - even with a backhoe it was a job to pull them.
I wonder how my hugely expansive soils would handle that . . .
Expansive soils, Zone I Hot Humid conditions, and 36" of rain per year--I'm not sure there's a "perfect" fence post solution out there for me.
Saw one I might try, though. They drove 2 1/2" 60" 36" into the ground and bolted the gate post on the simpson connectors.Occupational hazard of my occupation not being around (sorry Bubba)
You put those posts on the house, the deck, or the fence??????????
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
It was the fence in front of the house.The secret of Zen in two words is, "Not always so"!
http://CLIFFORDRENOVATIONS.COM
and oh yeh.....I painted the post bottoms that went into the ground with creosote (when it was legal)....I actually still have about ten gallons left. Need a gallon?The secret of Zen in two words is, "Not always so"!
http://CLIFFORDRENOVATIONS.COM
You must have got a pretty perfect mix or not too many hard freezing weather or drainage through to bottom of hole and beyond then. I tend to doubt that the creosote helped hold the crete togeter though it might have made a bit of a cushion layer.
I hope the metal cans you have that leftover creosote in don't rust out on you from the outside. I assume they are metal because that's the only way I have ever bought it, but you might consider transferring it to plastic five gallon cans. I've seen the bottoms come out and it can make a pretty ugly mess.
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
Sam T had some good advice about renting a power auger. Depends on how many holes you have to dig and what the soil is like. I think some are mounted right on like a Bobcat, others you (and some require another person to help hold it) just hold onto. To plumb the posts you can get L-shaped levels that attach to the post with rubber bands or springs--makes it a lot easier than trying to use a regular level on both sides while the post is shucking around.
""""cutting down trees and big television antenae!""""""
are there many people who need their antennae cut down
LOL!!!!
Only one so far, but you never know! We learned a lot from the one though--Next time (assuming there is a next time and it's the same, which it undoubtedly won't be) we'll do like I suggested at the end and just removed one of the three bolts holding it to the slab and pivot it down. My boss rented a cherry picker and cut the legs starting near the top and we lowered sections down. They got all tangled in the ones below. Of course it was windy and overcast--I was worried about lightning. Siding the house went better. That was the house where cut the soffit and my saw seemed to really be doing a remarkable job, then boss tested the circuit and found out it was 220.
Hey Cody,
Looks like you got enough answers to the fence post question. Keep showing up around here -- as you can see, there are plenty of people willing to help, particularly in light of your circumstances.
Thank you for your service.
DRC