Please help me. I want to hear what you builders think about this- When a builder gives me a per square foot estimate for building my house – what does that include? Only heated and cooled sf? Attic? Basement? Porches? Garages? If he quotes me 100$ per foot for my 2000 sf house(I wish) – will I pay 200,000 for everything? Lot? foundation? driveway? cabinets? appliances? We are having a major conflict on what he meant by that. What is your opinion? Anxious to hear –
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Maybe you should ask the builder? Seriously, I'm sure he could answer all of these questions.
Are we getting trolls now on Breaktime?
Dont you have some sort of contract/itemization that spells out exactly what your getting for your $100 per sq ft?
I guess thats where I would start to look.
Others will be in here tomarrow morn and give you some better advice.
Doug
do two lists...
what you expect and what is provided for the SF price...
compare them...
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming
WOW!!! What a Ride!
Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!
Do you or do you not have some sort of written contract, agreement, proposal, list? Anything in writing at all?
Has any work been started? Has any money changed hands?
If the answer is NO to all of the above then get some bids from others. Be consistent (read exact) on your requests to others so you compare apples to apples.
If you can't agree on something and you have no contract and no work has started then find someone else and start fresh.
If you have something started and nothing written between you then you best invest some time and money with some good legal services. Get a quote, there, too.
You gotta' get your stuff together, FIRST. Good luck.
...The unspoken word is capital. We can invest it or we can squander it. -Mark Twain...
Be kind to your children....they will choose your nursing home.
An estimate is only an estimate, not a bid.
And when it is a per sq ft est, it is really only a rough guess. That would be like pricing a car by the pound.
Your builder probably doesn't knowthe answer to those questions either.
Would need to know how you come to this point? What details have you provided to him? He would need complete plans to come up with a detailed bid. Have you provided them?
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I read again and it really looks like you just asked him foir a rough idea and that is all you got. For instance when you ask about if the lot is included...There are places you can get a lot for $40,000, and other places where the lot alone will cost over $500,000.
Estimating is a science. You have to put specifics in to get specifics out.
For example,
I want hardwood floors in teh living room, tile in the kitchen and carpet in the bedrooms
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Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime.
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Excellence is its own reward!
Your job is to tell the builder what the finished product will be.
The builder's job is to give you a price for that finished product.
If you leave too many grey areas of what you want vs. what the builder will deliver, surprise, surprise, surprise! You end up paying more and at odds with the builder.
Stop and reassess what you want vs. what you can afford. Call a truce with the builder and work it out.
Best to you and yours, Chris.
Some say I know too much.
We are half way through the building process . Agreement was cost plus 10%. ( Yes, I know now that was not smart). We have 5750 heated and cooled.He considered porches, garage, and basement in total sf. We only planned on price of heated and cooled per sf.We are way over budget at this time. How can we get back on track at this point. We are angry with our builder - but angrier with ourselves for not watching EVERY dime up to this point. HELP
I am always mystified by how someone has what it takes to acquire enough money for a house that big, yet does not know the answers to the basic questions you are asking.
From your last post, it sounds like you agreed to give him a 10% profit. Then it sounds like you expect him to build you the porch, basement, and garage for free. Am I getting this wrong?
In any case, the square footage is irrelevant when you are paying cost plus 10%. When you have paid for all the materials, the work, the permits, and any other costs, except for the land, you can divide that by the square footage of the heated and cooled areas for a cost per square foot, or you can add the garage, or whatever you want. It is only a number. If you prefer to use only heated and cooled, your house will seem expensive. If you add basement, garage, and porch, you will have a lower number that will make you feel better.
Well, the horse is out of the barn and you put the carriage before the horse ( I could keep this avalanche of cliches going all day ), but what were you thinking? I'm sorry, that's a rhetorical question.
What you've done to yourselves is a relationship killer. It's put you at odds with your builder, but you can only blame yourselves. The skill now is to keep it from being a relationship killer with your significant other.
Way too many unknowns (ie your taste in appliances, flooring, finish touches requested, etc) for anybody to give a good answer other than:
If you want to control 100% of the cost and know where every dime went, DIY 100%. Think of the skill set and tools you will have when complete, and you cant complain about anything.
(note: I'm not a GC badmouthing you, I proseletize for DIY to those who need to learn the details - what better way!; still do 100% myself BTW, except some medical and dental and am over 3 score YO)
So, should we tell her that beat flat car hoods with a sod covering will save her some money on the roofing? : - )
who said anything about bothering to beat them flat first <G>
Yea, they also make better septic tank lids when there not so flat.
"We are half way through the building process ."WOW!
It is inconceivable to me that you could get this far with no clearer communications than this, but if you communicate to him in the same manner as you presented this topic here to us, I can see why things are going badly. I got totally the wrong understanding of what you were intending to say or ask or what the situation is.
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>>Half way through the building process and way over budget. How do you get back on track?<<
If you were Superman and could fly to turn time back you could start all over. Now you have to evaluate your budget, your financial capacity, and what stage is the building in.
Is the shell built and enclosed (windows, exterior doors, and roofing on)? Is the exterior skin on (siding or masonry)? If this is the case, the weather elements will not deteriorate your construction if you take a time out and evaluate your contract and relationship with this builder.
but angrier with ourselves for not watching EVERY dime up to this point. HELP
This is exactly the problem! The builder is probably doing his best to keep cost low but cost are what cost are. At cost plus 10% you should have been given an accounting at regular intervals as to where you were on budget. Your builder is not your Mommy and won't say no to your choices unless it affects safety, structural or time/cost.
I am in a current agreement on a small bath remodel. I explained all the possible caveats that would effect a budget including their decisions. They worked on their wish list and adjusted so the cost would be around $16,000- $19,000. A small remodel like I said.
They have since doubled the amount of tile on the floor and walls,( $1500 up to $4200). They added 6 additional can lights and 5 outlets,( $1500 up to $2500). They changed the countertops to granite, the toilet to a high effiency flush and fancy closet cabinetry.
All this said the cost now stand at $32,000.00. I have the cabinets to finish spraying and install, a window and trim to install and final paint.
My best hope is the cost will finish out at $36-$37,000. They seem happy but despite my understanding of why the cost have escalated I'm stressed. I worry about this job more than any other .
Most of the others here are venting as I am our frustrations with naive clients. You have an obligation to educate yourself about your endeavors. You have an obligation to yourself to examine every invoice in a cost plus situation and question cost if they seem high.
And most of all, after all your preparedness, you have an obligation to write that check every week with a smile understanding the final cost is your creation.
Worst for you is that you'll have to put the house on the market and try later with another builder. At least then you'll be a little more aware of what's ahead.
Good luck
Edited 1/29/2007 8:58 am by jagwah
Agreement was cost plus 10%. ( Yes, I know now that was not smart).
Cost plus is not the problem with your budget overruns. In fact, unless he is padding his expenses, the 10% he is making is less than the 15% to 25% we shoot for on our bid work.
The problem appears to be that he gave you a rough per sq. foot price as a bid. I promise you that every poster and lurker on here is bug eyed over this right now.
Built a house for a client @ $107 dollars a square foot two years ago, lot and all. Plain jane, built for economy, but nice. Followed that up with the same basic foot print and plan @ $155 sq ft. The difference ? Bells and whistles mostly, but not all that many either. That kind of swing is deffinatly possible if yall did not discuss specifics. And 100 bucks sq foot on a 6000 sq footer ? I- yi-yi
Speaking of specifics, now we need the whole story, from the top. Remember the five W's: Who, What, When, Where, and most important WHY? =)
I agree with junkhound. You have to start seriously thinking about sweat equity. Most able body Homeowners can install bat insulation and do painting.
Things like garages, porches, decks, can be done later. Also carpet now instead of hardwood floors or tile that can be done later. Latest and greatest appliances can wait too.
Your emotional wants are at war with your practical needs. (Probably The reason you decided to build rather than buy an existing dwelling.) I've see homeowners at war with themselves like this for 30 years. "It has to be pretty first, functional or cost effective second."
I really do wish you luck.Best to you and yours, Chris.
Some say I know too much.
You need to be prepared to stop everything and get a handle on what's been spent, and what will be necessary to spend to finish the house. Hopefully, you made some decisions early on in the building process that will help the builder provide you with a pretty detailed cost estimate to finish the house from the point you are at right now. Then, and I'm assuming here that you will be getting a mortgage, you need to go to your lender and inform them what the house will end up costing, and make sure you can be approved for this additional amount. If you've been using a construction loan, the lender should have at least some kind of idea that you are over budget.
If you can't qualify for the additional loan, you need to start cutting way back on any extras and start using less quality of materials. Most of your money is spent from this point forward, anyway, so you should be able to trim some substantial amounts from your budget.
The cost per square foot proposed by your contractor should be explained by your contractor as to what is included. You can also ask what is not included. But to be sure you and the contractor are on the same page in the same galaxy, get everything in writing.
Print out all of these conversations, hand them to your builder and say "we need to talk". After the builder reads them you will see that you have finally communicated with him.
You've got a strange concept of communicating too;)
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
Well, it just seems that the HO has been working (or not working) with the contractor and not having any useful communication with him. It was nice that the HO came to breaktime to ask questions, I just felt like the next question session would be with his attorney. By printing out the discussions and giving them to the GC he would indicate his displeasure with what was in progress. Darn, its cold here this morning!
Well, maybe. I'm sure we are only looking at this whole scene thru a peephole and not getting the whole picture here, but I can't imagine how things got to this point without better communications than this so far. They sure do need to do something more than hand over a printout of an online discussion. Either somebody isn't speaking, or somebody isn't listening...or both.
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
Agree totally! Glad I am not either party. It would be interesting to see the outcome.
but I can't imagine how things got to this point without better communications than this so far.
That's the thing that flabbergasts me about this. How does a builder build a HALF A MILLION DOLLAR HOUSE!!!!!!!!!!!?????. without a detailed contract ? I read that right didnt I ? 100 bucks sqft for (ostensibly) 5750 sqft.
Then the whole disagreement about what the sqft is calc'd off of. Assume a standard three car garage 36'X24'= 884 sqft X $100= $88,400 worth of "oh sh!t ! There has to be more to this than what we got so far.......
on edit: I realized he didnt say what the per s qft quoted was, just hypothetically $100, but still.......I got an ickey feeling in the pit of my stomach just reading about it. I hate it when we have a $500 dollar budget overrun.
Edited 1/29/2007 3:40 pm ET by woody1777
I have worked with half a million of "budget creep" but clear communication every step of the way!You'd have to go a long ways to find that size of a home and decnt workmanship for only a hunderd a foot too, IMO
maybe in 1999...
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
I'm also wondering what Woody said above in #.25, about the builder.
If you guys have a client who doesn't appear to understand what is going on do you try and guide him? I wouldn't expect you to give him a cram course or anything. But, why invest your time in something that may not pan out.
What good is it to you to have to stop and explain each detail, babysit, worry about any payments and in the end maybe just walk away and leave it to collections?
The buyer/customer should be aware but obviously is not. Is your (a builder's) time worth all of that? Your other customers and crew will pay the price as well, I would imagine. It might be best to turn down such a job rather than waste energy and resources.
There are red flags all over this one and I would suspect this builder may have contributed, as well.
Just curious how such a project can get this far along and neither side APPEARS to have a handle on it. Again, as someone else said earlier, we do not know the rest of the story....The unspoken word is capital. We can invest it or we can squander it. -Mark Twain...
Be kind to your children....they will choose your nursing home.
change orderes and invoices go a long ways to solving that riddle, but some people are in lala land in spite of it all.I had a couple who were in late fifties /early sixties and neither had ever owner a house before. Expatriots and city people with condos and apartments - trying to bring all their eclectic dreams and memories and fantasies together into one neurotic splash. The house actually turned out pretty nice in spite of it alll. But there was a closeet that got built, torn out, built, torn out before the place was finally finished. a Sink that cost three grand that was too big for the space and needed room rebuilt to create a space, a stairs that needed to be changed , and dozens of other quirks.It was like she was Irish countryside and he was French Provincial... and i was the pope and Father confessor....I kept them aware of costs with biweekly invoicing and comparisons to the budget. When it came to that sink, I was almost arguing with her - he was gone on a business trip - and she blurted out, "It's just his retirement money we're spending here anyway.What else is he going to do with it?" <Dhuh?>
That was my signal to shut my mouth, because what I wanted to do after that was to shut hers. I delivered the work and the bills and let them sort it out. They went 40% over budget and he had to keep working instead of retiring on plan and they are divorced now....the house is on the market, and someday when it sells, odds are good that I will be doing some remodeling...
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
If you guys have a client who doesn't appear to understand what is going on do you try and guide him?
Hmmm.
Two things there. First, the builder has to have enough experience to see/guess/know if things are "slipping away."
Second, there's very likely a perception problem from get-go.
Customer comes in with, maybe, xeroxes of some plan-book plans, and says "Can you build this?"
Well, the builder may have an inexpensive finish "in mind" from get go. Or the client comes in and puts a middling arbitrary budget cap in place. That will influence the builder's budget process pretty much from then on.
So, now, builder has "zeroed in" on plain-jane; client may still be thinking they are getting middle, or better-than-middle of the road.Occupational hazard of my occupation not being around (sorry Bubba)
to find that size of a home and decnt workmanship for only a hunderd a foot too, IMO
Yeah, bit of a time warp there.
Slightly ironinc, least to me, that now they want to try and get the budget under control. This is jsut impression, supposition on my part, but, it sure sounds like they said, in effect, "they said they could do it; we're not entirely sure what "it" is; but we have a good feeling so far."
Sounds a bit like cart & horse were never really hitched, but both started down the same slope with different drivers expecting responses to control input not matched to results (hard to rein in a horse you're not riding, as it were).Occupational hazard of my occupation not being around (sorry Bubba)
So, How would you like to step in a take over as archy on this?wait a minute while I get my hard hat and ear protection on before you answer that
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
How would you like to step in a take over as archy on this?
You just hit on what scared me most with this.
I've been asked (begged for a couple times) to ride in as Lone Ranger to "fix" this sort of thing. None of those ever worked out, either (even the ones I ran away from).
It's so close to the "busted up" of a bond takeover is what winds up being a huge problem. And everybody winds up with "wrong" on them. Builder says, "hey, I didn't no nuttin 'bout no cypress doors--who's payin' for all these luan panel doors I dun already bought?" Owners go, "But we told you all about that."
I've got no bullets, silver or othewise of OP. My guess is that they will be lucky to find a happy medium with the present builder and "liquidate" to some sort of unsatisfied "satisfaction." That's likely the only way to haul budget control back into this.
In fact, that may be their best bet. Treat this like a "gc went bust" situation. Find some equitable way to get the shell complete, and then, stop, and regroup.
OP clearly started with a distinct image of their desired "home." Builder came in (possibily) only expecting to build a "house." This is an important divergence that is hard for some to percieve.Occupational hazard of my occupation not being around (sorry Bubba)
She says the sheetrock is 80% complete, and they're beginning to put the trim up...sounds like something on somebody's sci-fi channel<G> "But to be honest some folks here have been pushing the envelope quite a bit with their unnecessary use if swear words. They just put a character in to replace a letter. But everyone knows what they're saying." Sancho
sounds like something on somebody's sci-fi channel<G>
And I've worked with those bug-eyed-monsters one too many times. Without even a phaser to go with, too . . .
I suppose it could be worse. Could be two sets of finish instructions for the same (alleged) price. Not that I got stuck in the intergalactic debate of no-trim-at-all-modern versus 4-peice+backbanding and dado rails ever more than the once . . . Occupational hazard of my occupation not being around (sorry Bubba)
Well, he also said basement, so if it's an unfinished basement the size of the house, then that would be 2,875 sq. ft. upstairs and 2,875 in the basement. If he's calling that basement heated and cooled, but it's unfinished, then I would understand where the concern is, if instead of what he thought was a $287,500 bid is now turning into a cost of $575,000, plus $100 sq. ft. for any garages, porches, etc.
But, we still don't know enough. We're still just guessing.
jochiz2
A decade ago it was common to only include the price of living sapces.. as the building heated up in the 90's and early 21st century that changed to count everything, decks bumpouts and etc.. in the last 6 months due to lack of construction the trend is moving back.
Whatever your contract states is your answer.. if it's open then it's time to negotiate. When doing so please remember the contractor needs to earn a fair wage for his efforts.. if he priced it to include everything and you assumed he wouldn't count certain things, that's your mistake and you need to deal accordingly
Regardless of whatever system you've used to calculate your costs and the type of contract, there should be one number that trumps everything else: your total budget.
Without this information available to both parties, it sounds like neither side knew what the goal was. Now its time to make compromises.
jo.. i read all 31 responses to date..
i was going to add my 2 cents last nite.. but the site was too slow
here's my take..
1) keep in mind that most builders are optimists, we tend to estimate things as if we were Polyanna.. it takes years of coping with Murphy's Law before we finally wake up and learn that it always costs more, and takes longer than we first thought
2) most builders are honest ( why not ? ).. but young ones may have more technical knowledge and skills thta business knowledge and skills
3) you stated what the PLUS is.. it's 10%.. which doesn't mean anything at all.. it is really important to define what COST is
the equateion is a two item equation (COST ) + ( + 10% )
the 10 % is the easy part.. but what is cost.... if you are dealing with a company that specializes in Insurance work.. they know ( and Include ) every possible cost.. paper clips, utilities, travel, bookeeping , invoicing, labor, labor burden, supervision, equipment rental... blah, blah , blah , .... blah, blah, blah... & blah, blah, blah
a young dude will usually forget and not include a lot of the costs that are directly related to theh cost of the job..
next ... and this is extremely important... what is the labor rate ?
what is it based on.... are there different rates for different skill levels.... different trades ?..
and subcontracts... who writes the specifications , who hires the subs... ?
ok...bottom line: see, young and inexperienced ( but honest ).. means that most guys who work for Cost + 10% actually lose money
because .. they have not identified all of their overhead in the cost of running their business.. so they set their labor rate too low.. not a problem if the PLUS part is higher ( there are two standards that ins. companies have historically accepted ... a markup of 10% overhead & 10% profit... and in our area.. a markup of 15% overhead & 10% profit )
anyways.. we use our hourly rate x 1.62 to determine BURDEN x 1.5 to determine our BILLING RATE for cost plus work .. comes out to $43 /hr... on Cost Plus work we bill $50/ hour + 25% markup on everything other than Labor
we hate "Cost plus" work... nobody knows what the bottom line is.. and it's always higher than any number anyone thought of in the beginning
i would much rather sit down and do a legitimate estimate and give the customer a FIXED PRICE... and write the specs so everyone knows what IS INCLUDED
and what is EXCLUDED ( just as important as what is INCLUDED )
all of this.. ( COST PLUS ) or FIXED PRICE is spelled out in the construction documents and the CONTRACT
which is why we are called "Contractors" we execute Contracts..
you have to bring your contract to this discussion if you want help understanding where you are and what your options are
you also have to figure out and state.. is your contractor an honest person.. or .. are you getting hosed ?
you also have to say where you are building.... the difference between two areas of the country can easily amount to $200 / sf
so .. your $100 / sf is meaningless to the discussion
It could be that in this situation the "builder" is nothing more than a GC defines COST to include materials, his subs labor, permit fees, insurance, coffee and donuts, his own mortgage, all the gas for all of his cars, his weekend trip to the Dells, etc.
Cost + 10% without a contract spelling everything out is an infinite money pit.
Given the estate you have descibed and the materials being CUT, I think $250 sq' sounds like a bargain!!! In my area, that gets you mid-grade Pergo and "wood texture" doors.Like you said in your recent response, you hired him because of his experience and reputation. Experience and reputation cost more. Depending on the market - MUCH more. Given his experience he should have known to get a written contract - or he new there was money to be made by not have one!If the second builder can finish the work incorporating the materials you are cutting, get it in writing, pay the current builder for his work/materials, thank him and hire the lower priced builder. Please send him to Maryland when he is done!Seriously though, perhaps you should complete the main house, live in it, and take a breather. Spend the money to make it comfortable for YOU and don't cut the materials you will regret down the road. Guest houses, porches, garages can be added later . . . by a builder with a contract.
Edited 1/30/2007 8:22 am ET by JasonG
It includes whatever he meant to include, which, hopefully, you already know, in which case, you don't need to ask this question.
As a guess, I would expect it to include the house, complete, ready to move into, with no landscaping, no driveway, on your lot. But that totally depends.
Edited 1/29/2007 6:54 pm ET by HammerHarry
I think the homeowner has been scared away . . . or he/she is demonstrating the communication skills that got him/her into this mess!Jason
From:
jochiz2 <!----><!---->
Jan-29 10:30 pm
To:
ALL <!----><!---->
(1 of 2)
84924.1
Ok - some of you asked for the whole story. Here it goes.We live in a small southern town. Our builder is about 40 yrs old , his dad was a premier builder and he grew up building. He is definitely the best builder in our area. He has done extensive renovation work for us and we have never been anything but very pleased at the results. THE HOUSE is 5500 sf. He quoted us 175 to start but now says it will be 200 per sf. He gave us a detailed list of remaining costs which were ridiculously high. If we did it all, the house would be near 250 per ft. My husband met with another builder we know in another nearby town to ask for advice. He was apalled at some of the figures. FOr example , we were planning a pool house ( guest house - apt for our moms or married children) 500 sf and about 500 underneath like a basement ( not finished - just place to store lawn mowers etc.) He quoted 200,000$ to build that!!!!! THe other builder said he could do it for 52,000$. Quite a discrepancy. I'm sure they weren't comparing apples to apples on every part. Also, building a pigeonaire ( not sureof spelling) - just a brick square structure to enclose a pump. Using our house brick and roof. He quoted $24,000 for that!!!Oh my goodness!!
We do not have a written contract. Just a verbal agreement. I know that was not smart. THis is our first experience of building a house. And with all past experience with our builder, just felt like we could trust him to make it all work. (Yes, I'm the naive homeowner you mentioned).
We are going to make painful choices now. Decided to cut hard wood floors from 10" to 6" boards, choose pine interior doors instead of cypress. Trying to decide about using fake beams ( core covered in old wood ) insteaD OF solid wood. I'm waiting for estimate from my tile source for bathroom tile and countertops. I really want to cut this down. Hate watching my husband so stressed out. I regret choices made earlier. I really appreciate the advice and insight I am finding on this site. THanks for any further help.
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A great place for Information, Comraderie, and a sucker punch.
Remodeling Contractor just outside the Glass City.
http://www.quittintime.com/
i love where they go to another builder to solicit comparisons.. and he tells them exactly what they want to hear
bet his tune would change fast if here were really there building instead of in the next town throwing stones in the water
jochiz... your specs are out of line with your budget.. from the few things you described, it's lucky you're building in the south.. your total job costs would be double if your were building in our area
and ... just for your information.. WHY DID YOU START ANOTHER THREAD TO ANSWER THE ORIGINAL ONE ? is that how you conduct a dialogue ?
it's like starting a conversation in one room with several people and then wandering next door to continue the conversation with a whole new group... use your common sense
arrrggghhhhh
Mike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
WHY DID YOU START ANOTHER THREAD TO ANSWER THE ORIGINAL ONE ? is that how you conduct a dialogue ?
I would assume it was done out of ignorance, not out of spite. Threads get bumped to the bottom of the list pretty easily and if you dont know how to search "high interest" or "recently seen", it would be pretty easy to lose the original thread.
Lets be courteous to our guests alright? At least until they show up in the tavern......
woody..... ignorance is what got her into this mess..
i just want to give her a nudge to keep her in the same room.
i'm hard of hearing and can't hear conversations in the other room
but , thanks for your concern
now... you were saying ........??
perhaps you can help her out of her quandry ?
methinks it comes down to a nice long sit down with her contractor.. lay all the cards on the table.... is he honest ?... he certainly knows more about the job than joe schmo in the next town
and a review of specs would be revealing... are the items /materials/ processes being selected by the Owners in line with the assumptions of the builder when he did his sf estimate ?
is the GC frustrated by lots of job changes ? what about the plans ?
where did they come from? who drew the plans ? are they detailed .. do they include specs and trim & finishes ? who wrote the specs for each of the subs ? who's picking out the flooring, the tile, the cabinets, the appliances
<<<< We have 5750 heated and cooled.He considered porches, garage, and basement in total sf. We only planned on price of heated and cooled per sf.>>>>
this house in most markets , would run in excess of $1 million... easy !
so where is it now... and what is the latest projected total cost to finish ?
Mike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Edited 1/30/2007 9:21 am ET by MikeSmith
I'm just still "bug-eyed"
I wish them well and hope to heck they can get out of their mess with minimal damage.
Makes my current position seem like a day at Disney-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
WWPD
I'll let you handle this one. you're doing just fine, Mike.
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
well, least you could do is hold my coatMike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
How would I use my hands to clap and cheer?
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
<<methinks it comes down to a nice long sit down with her contractor.. lay all the cards on the table.... is he honest ?... he certainly knows more about the job than joe schmo in the next town>>That's a good place to start. It sounds to me like it's well past time for total disclosure from all sides.<<and a review of specs would be revealing... are the items /materials/ processes being selected by the Owners in line with the assumptions of the builder when he did his sf estimate ?>>The best time to have done that was before the project started, the second best time would be right now.<<is the GC frustrated by lots of job changes ? what about the plans ?>>One of the biggest traps of cost-plus. I have gone nuts trying to explain to clients what their changes would cost, trying to explain that they can't keep making these changes and still hit the original cost estimate, and they hear me telling them that they can't make any more changes. <<where did they come from? who drew the plans ? are they detailed .. do they include specs and trim & finishes ? who wrote the specs for each of the subs ? who's picking out the flooring, the tile, the cabinets, the appliances>>That would also be interesting.<<<<<< We have 5750 heated and cooled.He considered porches, garage, and basement in total sf. We only planned on price of heated and cooled per sf.>>>>>>OK, that's where I blow a fuse. I have been through this with potential clients, they want to only count heated and cooled. So the garage, the wrap-around porch with exposed beam/T&G ceiling and stained concrete floors, the second story deck, the 1,500 driveway, all free, right?Man, this is why I don't do cost-plus.
"THE HOUSE is 5500 sf. He quoted us 175 to start " "We have 5750 heated and cooled"5750 X 175 = $1006250
This started out as a million dollar home.
What I want to know is how do you end up having the money to build a million dollar home, and be dumb enough to try and do it without a contract with the builder? And how do I get into the business where you can be this dumb and make that kind of money?
Simple, I am with you. I want a part of the action where you can make a yearly wage that allows a bank to finance 1.2 Million, not want to see the contract or prints for the project BEFORE they lend the $$$ and not require an attorney to overlook the whole contract prior to building. Conversly I cannot imagine a builder who takes on a 1.2 Million project not having a contract (they are required in my state for anything over $500 - Statute of Frauds requirement). This is either a joke question from the begining or a horrible mess. Cannot imagine building anything that big and not having ALL the bells and whistles? What in the world do you do to need 5,000 sq ft?Mike
What in the world do you do to need 5,000 sq ft?
Excellent question for the original poster - --- 'pamper your ego' ?;
however, as a DIY , our 5300 sq ft house (both kids grown) is packed as are 12 or so outbuildings. DW has 600 sq ft full of quilt stuff (working on the 9,000th quilt for world relief), 2 rooms mostly grandkids stuff, pool table, ping pong table (usually covered with stained glass project) etc. Shops are getting crowded too.
Need to get a couple of warehouses like ponytl?
Well duh, obviously he didn't need to go to the bank.
He probably keeps that kind of chump change under his mattress! I would expect that.
"What I want to know is how do you end up having the money to build a million dollar home, and be dumb enough to try and do it without a contract with the builder? And how do I get into the business where you can be this dumb and make that kind of money?"
How is derision and ridicule adding any value to the OP or this thread? If you feel the overwhelming need to call someone who seeks help a dumbazz, at least confine it to the Tavern.
Well said!
The OP has already said that big mistakes were made.
Now, their trying to find a path...
Let's be at least as civilized and professional here as in person.
Among other things forum fistfights can get you tossed!
Freestate1You are right and I apologize to the original poster. Was not trying to insult them, just honestly curious as what line of work her husband is in, and probably a little bit envious.By the way anything wrong with these? “A fool and his/her money are soon parted.........everything you'll ever need you learned in kindergarten.” BKCBUILDERSimple
hah, hah, hah... nothing "simple " about you....
my comment had nothing to do with her situation, it had to do with her double posting ... so no one could follow the conversation...
sure wish she'd come back and enlighten us... has to be one of the most interesting situations in a long time...Mike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Thanks Mike for your kind words. I AM inexperienced in this messaging stuff. I'm a stay at home mom. My husband is a tremendously overworked professional who has little time for the full time job of building a house.We are obtaining infinite amounts of information about house building. Anyway, have learned alot from the voices of experience found on this site. Keep 'em coming!
A stressed out irratated homeowner= a stressed out and irrated builder. A stressed out and irratated builder will produse a lower quality product and be less likely to compromize on price if he does not feel appreciated. Your house to him will become a survival mission and the sooner he can get out the better. The best thing to do is to bite the bullet and admit mistakes were made on your part and he will be more likely to admit his responsibility. Builders usually want to give happy customers a good deal because happy homeowners are a good reference which equals more high quality jobs for them. If you as a costomer are angry and inconsolable there will be no insentive to try to make you happy. A thank you and a compliment goes a long way in adding value to you home both monitarily and quality.
jochiz2* might not see your response. I copied his post for informational purposes from another thread he started. If you want him to see it, post again to him.
thanksA great place for Information, Comraderie, and a sucker punch.
Remodeling Contractor just outside the Glass City.
http://www.quittintime.com/
"A stressed out irratated homeowner= a stressed out and irrated builder. A stressed out and irratated builder will produse a lower quality product and be less likely to compromize on price if he does not feel appreciated. Your house to him will become a survival mission and the sooner he can get out the better. The best thing to do is to bite the bullet and admit mistakes were made on your part and he will be more likely to admit his responsibility. Builders usually want to give happy customers a good deal because happy homeowners are a good reference which equals more high quality jobs for them. If you as a costomer are angry and inconsolable there will be no insentive to try to make you happy. A thank you and a compliment goes a long way in adding value to you home both monitarily and quality."
Is it OK if I use parts of this in my contract?! It says it all!
How come all of a sudden detailed specification are mentioned only now.
Where was the spec list when they talked about the project?
Ask the original poster.
I have no idea.
thanks.A great place for Information, Comraderie, and a sucker punch.
Remodeling Contractor just outside the Glass City.
http://www.quittintime.com/
A fool and his/her money are soon parted.........everything you'll ever need you learned in kindergarten.
Tell your builder he is in the wrong game. Only realtors talk price in terms of square foot units.
A builder might say he has built homes sort of like what you have in mind for a range of cost, like, say, $165 to $215 per square foot, but if you have presented him with a set of plans and specs, he owes you a total figure.
Anything else is misleading.
I am a custom homebuilder and think I could give you our inclusions when providing an estimate per SF, but we use only use SF cost to arrive at a feasible ballpark budget for the HO. Typically, this is used in plan size consideration, but it is wise to discuss all issues prior to conclusions.
Our final and guaranteed cost are determined by an indepth study of the entire situation, including items such as lot prep, permits, septic or public sewer, public water or well, culvert, permit cost, HOA fees, length of driveway, etc. etc. Note these items are unique to each home. Items such as appliances and cabinets, while they may be limited to an allowance as a part of the SF estimate, should be included in a SF price as they are (typically) found in every home.
I have attached a features document. In my experience as a builder / custom builder / member of NAHB and GHBA / member of GHBA Custom Builders Counsil / involvement in real estate / family members in real estate / etc., this list of features, (while not specific to our particular offering) is typical of price per SF estimate inclusions in this area of TX and my experience in Memphis, TN. Read the small type disclaimer at the bottom, and note certain limitations on the size of Garage, Porches, etc. The features document does not include a lot.
We base a SF estimate on the living area total, but in some cases it is not reliable. A 4000 SF home with a 4 car Garage and 750 SF of Porch and 5 1/2 baths will be more that a 4000 SF home with 350 SF of Porch, 3 car Garage and 4 1/2 baths.
Again, our company and a good builder may offer a SF estimate or general market example pricing, but he will study each home, the clients desires and the necessary inclusions prior to conclusions on a cost to build.
Personally, I think a Cost Plus contract is a conflict of interest for a dishonest Builder. As an example, why should he use and report that he can get better pricing from ABC Granite when his percentage return is higher when using higher priced XYZ Granite? Cost Plus Contracts also eliminate most of the risk for the builder, given that he knows what he is doing and does good work.
If you are halfway through the building process, I would recommend a brief work stopage so that your issues and concerns can be defined, clarifed and a completion strategy can be created with the builder. If he does good work and can be reeled in, it is generally much more cost effective to allow him to continue rather than switch builders. There can also be complex warranty issues when switching builders.
If you find my submissions helpful, you can email me at [email protected] for further and more private consulation. Not that I know it all, I would say that most all of the other submissions by the BT Super friends are valid considerations.
Edited 2/2/2007 4:01 pm ET by txlandlord
tex...... and what do your private conversations do to enlighten the rest of the world ?
that is not the nature of this forum... we are all here to learn... so what would we learn if everyone had private conversations ?Mike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
and what do your private conversations do to enlighten the rest of the world ?
that is not the nature of this forum... we are all here to learn... so what would we learn if everyone had private conversations ?
BTPD,
My private conversations are just that, private and not intended to enlighten the rest of the world.
Truthfully, I have been emailed regarding several matters here on BT without any prior offers for privacy on my part. The emailers wanted privacy.
I made the offer, let her decide based on my submission. If she chooses to keep the matter before BT...no big deal. If she does email me, choosing privacy, I guess you won't learn anything from our conversation.
I thought of several exemplary documents with information I would rather not share on BT, so the offer to help further is more of a need for privacy on my part.
Stop drinkng so much coffee and get some rest tonight.
It amazes me that there are such kind and generous people in the building industry that would take time out to respond to my cries for help. I appreciate the words of wisdom. Most of what I have read on this site just reinforces my deep regret over the way we have handled this from the beginning. However, I feel we are trying to get back on track now. The builder we consulted with in another town has been helping us to ask the right questions and go about getting prices in the right way. He has also offered to complete some of the projects we will put aside at a highly discounted price ( with written contract - on a fee basis - not cost plus). I am sad about the things we did that were not necessary and that drove the price way up. I probably will not enjoy those luxuries nearly as much as I thought I would. I have learned alot about bids and pricing ( wish I had known from the beginning). thank you for your input.
Most of what I have read on this site just reinforces my deep regret over the way we have handled this from the beginning.
My sister fell in a iced over swimming pool once in Northern Virgina.
She cried "HELP!"
People are different, but my first reaction was not to tell her how stupid it was of her to go out on the ice.
txlandlord,
You are right the first reaction should be to help. The problem is that when things are on the internet I often don't perceive the people involved as real. In the case of someone with a real problem who is in front of me I tend to help first and ask questions later. To Jochiz2,
I would like to sincerely apologize for pilling on with my earlier, non constructive comments.
The truth is you need to take to a lawyer in Mississippi who is versed in the construction contract law. You do not want a pitbull rather a negotiator or mediator. You need someone who can tell you how deep you are really in, and which direction is out. Is a verbal agreement in Mississippi to build a million plus dollar home for unregulated cost plus 10 percent binding? I don't know and I don't think any one here knows. The person you want to talk with to extricate you and your family from this mess is not likely here. And as always the advise you receive is worth no more then you pay for it.Simple
Could someone, preferably someone like Mike Smith or Piffin please tell me what's wrong with a cost plus deal?
There was a recent post suggesting that there is something wrong with them, I'm curious. Maybe I don't understand what is meant by "cost plus", I think I have a good idea what they are but maybe I'm missing something.
Doug
Edited 2/2/2007 8:08 pm ET by DougU
Typically, on a "fixed price" contract, the contractor makes a profit on the difference between a fixed price and his costs, so it's in his interest to control the costs.
On a "cost plus" contract, the higher the costs, the more the contractor gets. Is there any incentive to control costs? Not really.
doug.. there is nothing "wrong" with a cost plus job..
it is a very useful type of contract, and it can be very beneficial to all parties
my favorite one was a huge Victorian shingle-style we built
the architect was involved thru-out the whole process
the Owner benefited from me not having to add risk into the overhead.... ( risk = reward )
we got to build a beautiful house without a competitve bid.. the Owner, the Architect and our company all worked together as a team to get them the most for their dollar
it took us about 14 months ... and we had projected 10.. we had a "Cost plus fixed fee" contract.. and since our fee was based on 10 months we lost out on the other four months....
since our labor was billed at a rate that covered our overhead.. all we lost was profit and opportunity
this was in the mid -80's .. so another benefit was .. we were so busy with this project we didn't get involved in any of the speculative hare-brained schemes that were all over the place.. as a result .. we didn't go bankrupt , when a lot of other builders did ( lots of builders didn't get paid in the late '80's.... when the bankruptcies started they snowballed )
the reason i don't like "cost -plus" is because most projects are not really suited for it.. they should be done as "fixed fee" with good plans and specs to keep the change orders down
a lot of "cost plus" work is bad for the owners because of incompetent or inexperienced builders.... they shoot an estimate that bears no resemblance to reality.. which is why they didn't bid it in the first place.. they didn't know how to bid it
or they are unscrupulous and take the owners over the coals
CP is bad for the experienced builder because he can usually make more money with less headaches on Fixed fee work.. if he knows his costs and is not scared of getting his price
CP can also be bad for a builder because.. invariably.. someone has a bottom line in mind.. since it's cost plus.. who's responsible for bringing in the job in the most efficient manner ?... is it the builder.. or is it the owner.. or is it both ?
when the job runs over ( what job doesn't ? this is almost ALWAYS custom work ..it's a prototype.. lot's of unknowns
if the bulder has a track record of working cost plus with satisfied customers then it usually means he has done a good job of managing their expectations.. he led them to the water and they drank and liked what they got
usually a builder who is managing their expectations is high priced, with a good staff and the owners aresophisticated and knowledgeable
but.... what do you always hear about ?
guys who build cost plus and don't get paid.. why ?.. they didn't manage the customer's expectations
or from the homeowners .. they start out with an estimate they got from someone , say $300,000...... and it winds up at $500,000... the house still looks like it did in the elevation views on the plans.. but everything inside has gone from ordinary to WOW !
who decided on WOW ? ?...
BTW.. as soon as the bills totaled $300,000... from that point on the relationship usually deteriorated.. and the Owner, who originally wanted to adopt the builder as their new son.... now thinks they've hireed the 40 theives
oh.. and another thing about cost-plus ... don't let your crew know it's cost-plus.. and don't tell your subs it's cost-plus.... if everyone thinks they're going to the candy store every day.... how's that going to work
bottom line... CP can work fine... but most of the time ... it don't
yeah, yeah, yeah... i know.. there are a lot of guys who work cost-plus and do ok.. but most of them would make a lot more money if they raised their prices and did bid work
see, thing is.. since everyone knows what the rate is.. most guys are too scared to ask for the rate they should get.... and just struggle on for years with a low labor rate and a low percentage mark-up
buyt hey, whadda i no ?
Mike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Thanks Mike, I appreciate the time.
I guess I was accurate enough in what my assessment of cost plus was.
The reason that I asked about CP is because one of the most sought after builders in this area will only do CP. He's built 10 million dollar homes, some commercial, and a lot of remodel work. His customers are usually people that he did work for in the past and/or friends of those same people. His reputation is impeccable. I've never heard anything bad about the guy.
I think he's probably made some good money doing what he's done - his employees are as good as they come and loyal to a fault.
We've done finish/millwork for him on several houses and they've always been good experiences.
Maybe this particular GC is an anomaly so my impression of CP had been tainted. I assume you know more then I about CP, I was just curious.
Hell, I usually bid low and try to make minimum wages, I'd have no use for CP!
Thanks
Doug
Doug,
I strongly endorse Cost plus a Fixed fee. No percentages, that method doesn't encourage a sharp shopping eye on the part of the GC.
When I do it I have to establish a reasonably close estimate of the project or I will short myself in the fee. So what the client sees at the beginning is my best estimate (done the same way one would estimate a fixed fee contract) but without any added profit.
All my costs are part of the project, I have no gamble except did I short myself a littel profit if things don't go quite as expected, but if they do I know for certain I am going to make x dollars by the end of the job.
I haven't done a fixed bid job but once in the last ten yrs.
Hey dovetail or anyone with Cost Plus Fixed Fee experienceI have to come up with a draft contract based on exactly the scenario you described..this format by the end of next week. Its for the New England area and its for a new home. I have the JLC legal kit and some other sources but havn't found a good boilerplate yet.. and havn't spent a lot of time on it. I expect to have a lawyer approve and re work as needed but I need a place to start. If you could help I would greatly appreciate it.thanks
Arthurhttp://www.thesmallbuildingcompany.com
I use the AIA Cost Plus a Fixed Fee contract form. I do modify it some but that is my basic format.
I used to get these though my local office supply store but the AIA has since tightened up on distribution of them is what I am told and now you have to be a member of the AIA to purchase them. I have a friend who is an AIA member so she gets them for me. AIA = American Institute Of Architecture
Edited 2/3/2007 1:41 pm ET by dovetail97128
sounds like the guy you're talking about knows how to manage his customers expectations.. and deliversMike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Doug,
I have been in construction for over 35 years. The best method I used is the Project Management system. I get paid for managing and assisting the HO who is his own GC. He gets the benefit of all my trades and supplier connections at my cost.
I assist him to establish costs, he decides what he wants to spend his money on. I have no percentage charge, it does not matter to me if the project cost 50 k or 50 mil
I make sure the work is done right
Whatever he builds he gets practically at wholesale, he can do sweatlabor or nothing at all. I can offer him quality trades whoever is available when needed. Of course their prices are not exactly the same but it is up to the HO to decide if he wants to wait for a trade to get a better price or pay more to get the job done now. Quality trades are not that much different when it comes to pricing. Sure, you can get a price from a finish carpenter at the time of budgeting. Is he available 8 months later or do you want to wait 2 months so he can finish his work in a house and then move to your project?
Bottom line: HO is happy he gets the house at true cost. I am happy because I get paid my fee every month or every 2 weeks. I have no warranty issues. I dont have to fund his project up front and then chase my money.
Semar
Thanks, I'm understanding the reason why things are done this way, I also understand what Mike Smith is saying about his reasons for bids and the way he does things the way he does.
I've never been able to bid jobs right, I can do the work all day long, produce fantastic cabinetry but I loose my azz on the bid!
I've realized several years ago that I'm better off working for someone - allows me to do what I love to do and not worry about things that I hate.
Growing up I worked for a farmer, he always said that he hated money - I'm starting to understand what he meant - I dont like to have to think about it and working for someone means that I dont have to.
I'm happy letting my boss make money on my skills as long as he's happy worring about money!
Doug
I am coming back to previous stated comments
In order to get a fixed price you have to give detailed instructions/specifications of what you want. How can a CG know exactly what you want unless you tell him so. Why is the HO all of a sudden surprised about the cost? What happened when they were in foundation/basement state, when the framing was done, when the roof went up, when mechanicals were installed. Do you want to tell me there were no payments until now?
It is not the GC responsibility to assert how much money the HO has available. I think most HO would be annoyed if you would ask them if they can afford their home.
A word from my former lawyer: 90% of all ligitation is due to lack of specification
Basically in a cost plus situation the HO wants to limit the profit of the builder to the percentage agreed to.
All cost of the projects become the responsibility of the HO because only he decides what he wants and what gets build. He pays for the items he wants and pays the contractor the percentage of the cost incurred.
Before starting a 5000 sqft home at least he could have checked what this kind of home cost in his locality to arrive at some kind of a budget.
In this particular case since there is no fixed cost for the complete home is established, the HO would act wisely by stopping where he is now and count the funds available. From here he would need getting exact prices for what he needs now to finish the project and then decide if he can proceed or if he would have to stop the whole project.
The builder would be prudent not to spend any funds out of his own pocket: HO wants this or that - this is what the item cost - pay up front or have money in trust.
Switching builders now in my opinion not a good idea, especially if he is producing good work. What ever he did the HO must have gotten value for the money spend
I can't tell you what is wrong with cost plus, because most of my work is done that way, but in this particular instance, it looks like a lot of her problems ( many of which are not exposed here) would have been avoided with clear firm contract pricing and language.I may be wrong, but the lady seems very nice but totally out of touch with the realities of real world costs until slpped in the face with the bill and the checking account balance. My mental picture from reading this over the past few day is that they started out with a bsic agreement and proceeded on a costplus wemthod of billing, then as time went on, she thought this would be nice and thaty too, and while you are here....So all of a sudden the money runs out but the job is still a long ways from finished. The contractor might bear some blame fopr not communicating, but he may have been led to believe that they had all the money in the world and were not concerned about costs. My last two big jobs were for people who use accountants to pay their bills and who take down in excess of ten million a year so I can understand why and how a contractor can get that impression.The greatest problem in this case IMO, was a lack of communication. I am currently starting a job for whom budget is extremely important. A retiring teacher. We are working together to control costs.In the ase of this OPs situation, a frim contract bid price with specs would or could have been the original platform, and then every "While you are here..." request would have been the format for a change order with advance payment requested. That way she and her hard working professional husband would have known at least bi-weekly what they were doing to their budget.
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
Another factor to consider is stated in a wise proverb:
One mans story sounds good until you hear the other side.
The greatest problem in this case IMO, was a lack of communication.
I think that ones a gimmie!
I dont understand how someone(the original poster) can trust a GC to build them an expensive house and as things progress and their unhappy with costs they run to another GC to compare prices! WTF - This hardly seams like a match made in heven! And whats with the new GC?
I'm growing more curious about the other side of the story. Thats the problem on here, we seldom see the whole picture.
Doug
Certainly!The out of town contractor has no idea how the job has come to be this way or how he can keep it from getting to the same point besed on a couple of conversations with Sweet Pea.Not saying that she'd intentionally mislead him, but what shows of communication style is open to interpretation, to say the least.
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
square foot prices are a myth, they'll suck you in every time. then your bill is always
more, and then your mad! always get an exact price with a complete list of all specs
included, down to name brand of door knobs! then no one will be guessing what is
expected of them.
Oh god, what next
go into a car dealership and ask them How much per pound
It sounds like although your builder is likely an honest guy, he is not stepping up to the plate on the budgeting aspect of your project. This, likely spurred on by the cost plus agreement.
Here are some thoughts on how to get back on track:
- draw up super detailed specs for every phase of the project. Try to work with the builder, but after you have exhausted that, seek other sources. Like maybe the other builder. Expect to pay for help. That means, for example, the model number for every faucet, light fixture, and the color of the paint for every room - yes - paint color effects labor costs... I would expect at least 30 to 50 pages of specs for a project of your magnitude.
- cost out everything. If you have good plans and very detailed specs, there are estimating services who will help you with this for a nominal fee. Like maybe $1200 for your sized project. It must be a local company - you may need to do some searching - it's not like there are a dozen of them in the phone book. They will give you a list with $ figures for every major category. If that doesn't work for you the only real way to cost out construction projects is to get bids from subcontractors.
- it sounds like the project can be divided into sub-projects, like the pool house. Each sub-project could be costed out separately.
- start making 2 lists:
1) how to reduce the cost of the house: A Less expensive granite for the countertops? In stock tile rather than special order? Prefab fireplace with masonry exterior rather than a solid masonry fireplace?
2) parts of the project that could be left for a later date: like maybe the pool house. Other examples: finish basement space. Floor covering and paint for bedrooms that will not be immediately used. A bathroom in this area could be roughed in (pipes installed but not finished (fixtures, tile, etc. installed). Crown molding in secondary rooms of the home. Carpet installed in some secondary rooms that are planned for hardwood.
BTW - can you tell us exactly what phases of the project have been completed? Is drywall in? What shape is the exterior in? What about other parts of the project like the pool house? You said the project is 50% completed. Once a project gets to about 50% complete, a lot of the variable costs have already been paid, so a final budget number becomes significantly easier to obtain. You have to make up your mind on everything in advance though.
Attached is a list of cost catigories, that may not be usefull, but will likely help you think of expences that you are currently not counting on.
And BTW - forget about the cost per sq foot stuff - it is WAY too late for that...
Thanks for the spreadsheet. GAve me lots to consider.
The house is almost totally bricked ( bad weather has kept them from last part of rear of house. Roof complete. Sheet rocked about 80% complete. Flooring not started. Heat/ AC done as far as can be til later. Just beginning moulding. I'm trying to cut down on the size of that, but don't want to go too small with high ceilings. I have chosen tile, granite, shower material, etc. but am going back tomorrow to meet with my ID and tile source to scale back on some of it. About to start choosing paint colors, hardware and final lighting . We are definitely delaying pool house, driveway, landscaping,. pigeonaire, and extras such as outdoor kitchen, wine cellar completion, pool etc until we see exactly how much we will spend on just getting into the house. My builder is aware of how serious we are about watching remainder of spending and is now working very closely with us to try and slow down this run-away train. He is truly a great guy, renders a tremendous final product. We are shopping things and have saved a good bit just this week. I will use your spreadsheet to make sure we are not overlooking something. Thanks again.
Keep in mind that the spread sheet is a very bare skeleton.
BTW - I was trying to get this conversation back on track (your track) to get you some more help. I figured you must be a pretty tolerant person based on the way you reacted to certain things that were said...
certainly delaying those items are going to help you. Focus on the necessities first, then the foo-foo can be added back in later.Interior desiner just came up - in ALL my remodeling and renovation experience, there is NOTHING than has blown budgets out of the water more than interior designers! I have yet to meet one that knows the meaning of budget or limitations. They are infamous for ignoring the advice of builders. So keep a tight reign on the ID too, and don't be laying all the responsibility on the builder. I could tell you horror stories that would make your situation seem like a petty problem - all caused by IDs.
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
Your comments on ID people get my complete agreement. I think they must have to pass a required class titled "Budget Busting" before they licensed.
They have their place, and some are good at what they do, but an owner needs to keep in mind that they are artists, not accountants or engineers, so when a window treatment does not fit, if it is the right colour, "no problem, we'll just change the size of the window to fit the drapery..."
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
http://data.fineartstudioonline.com/dataviewer.asp?keyvalue=3027&subkeyvalue=38240&page=WorksDetailI'd be really, really, really frustrated if I couldn't have this built, immediately...I'm also really having a really hard time believing any of this is really real...LMBO "But to be honest some folks here have been pushing the envelope quite a bit with their unnecessary use if swear words. They just put a character in to replace a letter. But everyone knows what they're saying." Sancho
LMBO
What? Your Little Mighty Butt-Ox can't believe an interior designer can waste money? You wanna know what ID stands for?
Give'm an INCH
they'll take a DOLLAR
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
You miss the part about the pidgeonaire?...or the eggs for the wealthy?...and down here, we calls them IDs, Interior Desecrators<G>I wish I could laugh my butt off, I'm about ready to have to buy new pants, dang. "But to be honest some folks here have been pushing the envelope quite a bit with their unnecessary use if swear words. They just put a character in to replace a letter. But everyone knows what they're saying." Sancho
Ok Ive read enough. Cry Me A River WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA. I'm with you snort. My old man told me two things I'll never foget. It' your dream kid make it as big as you want.
You just #### in your own nest, Now you have to sleep in it. Good luck
Everybody has needs...;)No, I didn't miss a thing
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
Everybody has needs...some just choose a classier road to get them fulfilled<G> "But to be honest some folks here have been pushing the envelope quite a bit with their unnecessary use if swear words. They just put a character in to replace a letter. But everyone knows what they're saying." Sancho
This thread seems like a Cooks Talk counterstrike.....
I just got done with an ID. What a train wreck. Everything she touched went up in price. - Well, OK not everything. Still. I'd give her 12 choices of cabinets (within the budget) and she didn't like those.... Paint - had to pick a bunch of dark colors - "nothing else would work". Carpet - same same - and on and on.. And every decision made a week or 2 AFTER I needed them. Then she tries to change the cabinets 2 weeks after they are ordered... sometimes saying "NO" is fun :-)
My designer is a very rare type. She is a friend that I have had since high school ( 30 yrs). We've moved 5 times and she has helped us everytime. Even when we had very little money to use in decor. She is a very practical person. She is focused on being economical almost to a point that got on my nerves ( shoulda listened to her more closely from the start). So watching her is not really a big issue.
Excuse my curiosity, Ms. Jochiz2, but do you have any photos of your project that fellow breaktimers might see? Many thanks.Cheers,
Ken"They don't build 'em like they used to" And as my Dad always added... "Thank God!"
OK, Let her watch your money then!;)
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
Interior designer ????
Son of a gun, and they worry about a budget??????
and they worry about a budget?
Not one I've ever met (including my younger sister the inferior designer).
Word "budget" even seem to offend them sometimes.
Was asked if I had replaced my wore-out old couch. I said I hadn't saved up a couple hundred yet. She looked at me funny as said show could find pillows for a new couch for less than $300 . . .
Man, if only I knew from "soft furnishings" and how to swish . . . Occupational hazard of my occupation not being around (sorry Bubba)
Getting a bid in that manner sounds like asking for trouble. Just as your question implies, what does it mean?
I am a GC and teach construction classes, the problem is most hands on builders hate paperwork, me included, and the home owner is involved in an entirely new process, I was proj. mgr. on a couple of projects last year. A 14 x 34 ft block pump house and new drinking water well- treatment system for a city The engineering and specification book was 8 1/2 x 11 2 inches thick. everything is spelled out down to . paint mfg, colors, door knobs, and locks. it is real easy, just takes a lot of time to do an estimate-bid. We finished under our bid ...the other was a solar heated residence with only 12 page blueprints with more questions than answers. half way thru the framing it was 16 k over estimate( Not mine) around here most projects like your are cost plus 20 % My mechanic has a sign in his shop that says $50 per hour, $75 per hour if you watch $200 per hour if you help. The other thing is change orders and how they will be paid and is there enough in the buget. On The last school i worked on we had a process charge of $300 for every mistake I found on the plans or spec sheets. We had a deadline and penalties to finish on time and every hickup could cost us money> It came 1.5 Mil over budget on a $10 Mil project. and that was with 100 pages of prints and a 4 inch stack of state specifications. Its best to stop and discuss with your gc where you will go from here. and what each of you expected and smooth things out.
Some things I'd like to add:
Forget the stainless steel appliances. Move whatever appliances, furniture etc you ALREADY have into the house. Paint everything white until you can afford the look, curtains etc that you want. Plus it will give you a chance to LIVE in the house, which might change your colour scheme.Definitely forget anything outside the house (landscaping & so forth). You may find out that you prefer your inside kitchen & don't need an outdoor kitchen. The landscaping can wait until you've lived in your house awhile & can see out of each window. Then you can decide where you want a certain tree or what view you should keep because it looks great covered in winter ice.Don't finish the basement. It can be done later & will save you money NOW.At least you've realized that there is a problem for you. Waiting longer would have ended up in BOTH of you becoming prematurely grey. Sorry about the very, very expensive lesson.My noz is froz & so is my toz.