I’m trying to find a set of router bits (or shaper bits) that will cut a traditional ovolo profile for window sash. Seems like someone’s gotta be making them, but all I can seem to find on the net is the ogee style.
Attached are pictures to define what I mean by “ovolo” and “ogee”.
(The problem with the attached ovolo set is that it doesn’t have a built-in straight cutter for the glazing rabbet, and I don’t want to have to make two passes due to the inherent repeatability problems.)
Does anyone know where I can buy an ovolo set?
Replies
You can probably have a set ground for somewhere near what you'd pay for the "off the shelf" cutters.
I have a set but their the ogee, I dont remeber exactly what I paid for them but I do remember that I didnt think it was really out of line.
Doug
Yeah, I've been thinking that I'm going to have to get a quote for somebody to grind a custom bit. It just seems ridiculous that all these manufacturers offer ogee bits, but not ovolo, especially since the ovolo seems to have been used 95% of the time in old houses.
Ragnar
EDIT; I was just over at knots and see that you found something close.
I think your right that 95% of windows and doors have the ovolo profile, to a point.
I've rahabed some federal houses and a few early victorian homes and I've never seen the ovolo profile used in any of them. I think in terms of its use, at least in my experience, its a more recent profile, by more recent I mean maybe the last 100 years as apposed to the 300+ years that we've been here.
Doug
Edited 5/22/2006 6:16 pm ET by DougU
Doug,
Unfortunately, I don't think the Freud bit you saw over at Knots is going to work out... back to the drawing board!
You're absolutely right in your historical perspective on the ovolo -- since I'm on the west coast, "old" to me means about 100 years. So what sort of profile have you seen on the Federal houses or early Victorians?
I was back east a number of years ago and noticed all the window stops were beaded. Out where I live, they're almost always a form of ogee. Funny how regional differences work.
Regards,
Ragnar
Ragnar
Some of the old sashes that I've seen have been sort of an inverted V with the tip cut off. Others have been some variation of the ogee.
Here's a pic of the two sets that I have, both are taken from old sashes, the set that I have for an old house that I own in Iowa is in the shaper at that house, they are the inverted V that I discribed above.
Doug
Crap, I forgot to post the pic
Doug,
Since you've gone through the trouble of making cutters for your shaper, I'm assuming you know a thing or two about sash construction.
Mind if I ask you how you went about milling the check rails on the double-hung units? I've come up with a couple of ideas, but neither one looks all that attractive so far.
For a quick answer, I milled the check rail as part of the sash. I didnt care for adding a piece on afterwards, not that that cant be done, I just didnt care for it.
I'm going to see if I have any of the pieces around so that I could either scan or take a picture of and post those. My discription is knowhere near as good as a picture!
Doug
Doug,
I don't care for gluing on the "weather stops" either. I'm looking forward to seeing pictures of your project if you can find them.
What sort of joinery did you use?
Doug,
Any luck finding those pictures?
I was up in Iowa last week where I did the windows and couldnt find a single piece of scrap!
I can draw how I did it, give me a day or two. Oh, remind me, please, I forget this stuff.
Also I'm going over to the shop(on saturday) that I worked for in Austin where we made some windows and I'll see if I can find some scraps there.
I was looking through some old FHB the other day while in my "office" and I seen an article on window sashes, I'll scan and send those to you as well.
Sorry for forgeting, please do remind me if you dont see it in a day or two, us old guys forget easily!
Doug
I've collected many dozens of old sash from central and western New York State, dating from about 1820 to 1880s. I've seen both ogee and ovolo profiles throughout, with ogee increasingly common in the later half of the 19th century. Maybe fifty percent ogee by 1880. Also see a simple bevel sometimes; I can recall a couple examples dating from the 1820s and another from 1840 or so in my collection.
To replicate the original sash in my own house, I ground blades for a molding head I use on my table saw. Three blades, so I had to be very precise.
Allen
Allen
I've seen both ogee and ovolo profiles throughout
I'm sure some of this stuff is regional, I went through every picture and old profiles that I just sketch out for further reference and I dont have a single ovolo profile in anything that is older then the 20th century.
Maybe that claim that we were only about 10 years behind wasnt as accurate as I once thought!
The simple bevel that you refer to is what I was calling an inverted "V", I think, and thats what I have been using on my house in Iowa.
The group that moved out here from Buffalo(Ebanezer) that settled the Amana colonies were very simple in there construction, I suppose similar to the Shakers, I'm assuming thats the reason for the simple bevel.
Doug
Doug, I must be breathing too much lead dust. Just took a quick look through my sash collection, and only spotted TWO 19th-century ogee profiles, both dating from about mid-century. A bunch of others had some paint buildup that made them appear to be a very subtle ogee. And there were many simple bevel profiles ... a lot more than I remembered.
Been away from the window projects for a while. But today am about to attempt cutting glass in a semicircle for an arch-top window.
Allen
I must be breathing too much lead dust.
Well thats good/healthy for ya!
I just sent you an e-mail with a trim detail that I saw you post in another thread.
Doug
> .... ogee increasingly common in the later half of the 19th century. Maybe fifty percent ogee by 1880.
Here in Los Angeles, there aren't many buildings that old. In fact, not much remains from before the big building boom of the 1920's. Ogee is extremely common here. I've never even heard the term "ovolo" before.
-- J.S.
We can also subdivide the ovolo into Grecian and Roman. The former being a portion of an ellipse (or a hyperbola), and the later a portion of a circle.
Never been to southern California. Saw some 1840s architecture up in Monterey when my wife and I ran the Big Sur Marathon a few years ago.
The early architecture here in Buffalo, NY, was first destroyed by the British in 1812, then by a booming economy in the late 19th century. The "knock down the old and build new" mentality is nothing new.
Allen
Here in Los Angeles...ogee is extremely common... I've never even heard the term "ovolo" before.
John,
I learned something new today. Since the ovolo was so dominant here in Seattle, I figured it was a west coast thing. I guess it was more regional than I thought.
I had a set of 3/4" bore shaper cutters like that made once, but sold it with the machine. You could try Freeborn or Paso Robles Carbide for custom cutters, they are probably only a little more than stock and I wouldn't be surprised if they've made your pattern before. If you haven't done window sash before, there is a huge advantage to doing it on a shaper.
Thanks for the tip, Dave, I'll check them out.
I see that you are in Seattle, have you talked to the millwork folks at Blackstock Lumber? I know that they do stock 7/16" ovolo window stop and they may have other sizes too.
I know that they do stock 7/16" ovolo window stop and they may have other sizes too.
Renoun,
Yes, I'm familiar with Blackstock -- they run a great yard and have lots of millwork that fits period houses. I'm actually closer to Limback, and they do an even better job for me -- they can usually turn out "custom" millwork in several days.
However, I'm looking for the cutters to produce the rails and stiles for window *sash* -- not just the stops.
Thanks for the suggestion, nonetheless.
Regards,
Ragnar
I think you want a "bead" sash set, like this Grizzley set.
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0000DCZH5/qid=1148346256/ref=cl_tr_br_cl/103-5228170-5738254?n=3461911&s=hi&v=glance
Mark,
THANK YOU!!! That is exactly the type of profile I'm looking for! Now I just have to keep my fingers crossed and hope that the actual dimensions work out.
Who would have ever thought that the bit I was looking for could be at Amazon.... the problem is likely that I was using the word "ovolo" for my searches rather than "bead".
Thanks again!
That bit set is available directly from Grizzly also.