Couple of questions about how to proceed:
My girlfreind is helping me fix up a house I just bought, so I need to relay her question. She’s pulled some ratty vinyl wallpaper down from my bathroom to find that there’s been some type of skim coat applied over some even older wallpaper. She’s very meticulous, so there’s little to no damage to this “skim coat”, just a few scuffs and scrapes where things got tough. Rather than put up new wallpaper (I hate wallpaper with a passion), I’d rather just smooth the surface out and paint. She thinks that if we had the right material to skim over the rough spots, it would paint out just fine.
Question 1: What material would this be? She says the existing “skim coated” surface is very smooth, smoother than the Lightning that she skimmed her interior walls with. She thinks she’d like to make this a smooth surface because…
Question 2: When we did a bathroom in her house, we skimmed Lightning over the cracked and stained plaster ceilings and primed and painted. Within months, the skim coat had cracked and started to flake off. The rest of the house is fine, so I’m assuming a steam/moisture issue. What do we do/how can we avoid this problem in my bathroom and also in hers when we finally redo the ceiling again?
Note: Some might say to simply screw thin greenboard over the old plaster/wall material. I’d rather not have to go to that hassle/expense if there’s some skim technique we can use.
Conclusion: How do we proceed from here?
Thanks for the help, guys (and gals)
Replies
I painted for years before I did construction, and never have I been able to successfully paint over wallpaper even if it were skimmed over with some type of compound. It's especially prone to peeling because this is a bathroom. I'd strip all the paper off skim where needed, sand and paint. Or screw greenrock on and paint.
OK, what do we skim with, or else how do we prepare surfaces to insure that the new skim coat and/or paint will not peel off?
Regular joint compound. Then a paint primer coat and finsh coat.
Robert,
You're in a "what the heck was the guy/gal thinking when they did this" moment. I have been there and done that the past seven years in a Portland, Oregon home I remodeled and am now selling. I like to take the long term approach. I rip out out the past mistakes and do the job right. By doing it that way I know I am going to leave the house in better shape than when I bought and hopefully years from now a future homeowner will appreciate it.
It may take a little more time, money, etc. but if the job is worth doing, it worth doing right.
My two cents.... rip the bathroom back to the studs, sheet rock and hardiboard, mud and tape, prime and paint, wainscoating, tile or whatever, update the lighting and plumbing fixtures and you are ready to go.
This may all take more than a weekend but, it sound like you have access to two houses with bathrooms so tackle one and then the other. The second will go much faster unless you encounter unforseen "what the heck was the guy/gal thinking when they did this" problems.
mmm
Well, this house I have is to be rental and the tile wainscot is totally fantastic, so I'm real hesitant to go the "tear-it-all-out-and-start-over" route. I can understand the need to remove the existing wallpaper under the skim coat, though.
Jackplane, we did use Lightning joint compound to skim my girlfriend's bathroom ceiling, and although I can't remember what primer we used, I'm pretty sure it was a Benjamin Moore product specified for bathroom applications. The adhesion of the joint compound to the existing plaster is what has failed. I'm pretty sure that she scrubbed the existing plaster with TSP, as we did the entire house that way, so I believe it was clean surface. I'm wondering if there's something we missed before skimming her ceiling. Should we somehow abraid or deglaze the plaster surface?
Developing my original question: Assuming I have a somewhat decent plaster surface that needs to be repaired and smoothed in a few locations to prepare for paint, and assuming these walls are in a bathroom and therefore subject to moisture and steam, how do I prepare the plaster surface for skimmed joint compound and primer/paint to ensure that I won't have to do it all again next year?
Thanks for the help, guys.
Use a 'setting type' compound like Durabond 90 or Easy Sand.
It "dries" by a chemical reaction rather than the loss of water, is harder and more durable thus harder to sand if you are not good at skim coating, but I think it is less prone to bubble up the wall paper which would be my concern doing this. Pehaps you should seal the walls first with white shellac Binz.
EricEvery once in a while, something goes right!
firebird is right, Durabond 90 or a setting compound is best, but harder to sand. A sealer coat of Binz or white shellac helps if you're applying regular compound.
It's important to address why the plaster is failing, is it house settling? poor adhesion to lath from old age?or is the lath separating from the studs? Usually I cut a "v" in the plaster to give it tooth before filling and sometimes use fiber mesh tape to ensure the crack remains closed. Problem is, all this work takes longer than just throwing up new sheetrock. You have to judge that for yourself.
OK, now we've got some meat here, thanks guys.
Note about the girlfiend's house: the plaster ceiling itself is not failing at all. No cracks, no problems. It's the skim coat over the plaster to hide and smooth the gouges that we made removing the 3 or 4 layers of paper that is failing. The stuff is cracking and flaking off. When I pull hunks of it down, the plaster itself is intact.
Come to think of it, I don't know if we actually primed the plaster before skimming on the joint compound. I do know we primed the joint compound before we applied the paint. Perhaps the alkyd primer over the plaster will help.
The reason why I don't just slap some new rock over this mess is because the bathroom and closet area are an open plan, and I'd have to slap rock over around 200 sq feet just to keep the ceiling surface flat and level. The area of joint compound cracking is only about 40 sq feet. And if you knew how well I hung, taped, and mudded rock, you'd probably think twice about saying it'd be a quicker, easier option for me. The truth is this: Hang rock -> I do. Skim coat Joint Compound -> Girlfeind does. :)
I think we'll probably try the setting compound in my bathroom, it is pretty small. If she likes it, then we'll try fixing her bathroom ceiling with it.
Thanks for the tips.
This has been so painful to read. I understand the ease of posting, however there is a (re)search feature to this forum and skim coating has been discussed ad nausium (sp?). Use it.
A. As for the surface wall paper - go to the paint store or big box and get a "tiger's paw" and DIF/ wallpaper remover This will make the stripping of the paper much easier. Then wash the walls down with DIF/ wallpaper remover and hot water. Then do it again. Then do it again. Then rinse with plain water. Don't mess with the paper that's already buried. What's done is done.
B. Prime the stripped walls with alkyd/ oil based primer. I like BM. Use what you want. It just must be alkyd/ oil based. Some use shellac (Bin/ Zissner) however I find it dries too fast and therefore splatters A LOT, and burns my lungs if not properly ventailated. When properly ventilated it dries even faster. Any splatter can be cleaned up, even a day later, because being alcohol based it is a two way reaction material.
C. Skim walls using a hawk to hold the compound and an 8", 10", 12" knives to apply it. If you're not doing a lot then an 8" and a 12" will be enough. You'll need a few smaller knives for the sliver areas and to scoop the material out of the bucket.
D. I like light-weight joint compound. Others prefer reg. jopint compound.
DO NOT use setting type joint compound ( Durabond 90, 45, 20 , etc). You'll need a BIG drill and paddle to mix it up and after it sets, it is very unforgiving.
E. Apply 3 coats of compound, waiting a day or for the material to COMPLETELY dry before applying the next coat. DO NOT sand between coats. This is an additive process. Just scrape the wall surfaces with the 12" knife between coats to get rid of the burrs. You'll understand what I mean after you apply the first coat and it dries.
F. Lightly sand the final coat.
G. Dust/ sweep sanded walls and then prime with an alkyd/ oil primer.
H. Now you are ready to paint.
Frankie
I respectfully disagree. Durabond is more similiar to plaster, even harder and is almost unscathed when subjected to nominal moisture for short duration.
You cannot say that for taping compound and that lite weight stuff is just that.......for lite weights!
For a person with decent taping skills, D-Bond is a no brainer and no problem, I almost always use it to second coat tapers, butts and corner beads. It sets hard.
Coupla tricks; if you mix small quantitiies you can mix it with a margin trowel. Put HOT water in a bucket to the same amount of mud you want, then add the powder. MIX, mix, slake a couple of minutes, mix and go! I use 90 min, it is probably more forgiving time wise than you think.
If you time it right, you can find a point where the mix has set up after application where it is hard but still plastic enough where you can go around with a 6" knife and cut down any high spots or bumps. If you let it dry thoroughly, staple some 60 floor paper to a block of 2x4 and have at it.
If you have the patience to get through the learning curve you will never go back to just compound.
Oh, did I mention that it doesn't freeze?
EricEvery once in a while, something goes right!
THE FACTS
1. The original post was from a novice.
2. It's a rental unit and he doesn't want to invest a lot of time and money.
3. There is a learning curve for the Dura bond.
4. Mixing by hand is a PITA and for novices it's even harder because they don't know what the mix should be like.
5. With Durabond there is a time factor, something novices don't know about.
6. I was applying the KISS principle.
Durabond is fantastic for corners and walls when 2 or 3 coats need to be done in a day. For the corners I apply it to the existing corners, then imbed the corner bead into it and then trowel on a top coat. After that dries I'll skim on a polish coat. But it's only for the pros or warriors who use it regularly and have the luxury of time, patience and an interest to master it.
Regarding the comment of light weight compound is only for light weights - see #1 above.
As much as we'd like the world to be simple enough for absolutes, it's not.
Thanx for the tips. I only use COLD water to mix Durabond. I only mix with a hole-shooter and paddle. Warm water sets the material quickly so I never even considered using HOT. If you say it works, I'll try it.
BTW, where in Putnam county are you? Do you use Dain's or Dill's? I am currently working in Putnam Valley.
Frankie
I get passionate about things like this, sorry if I came off pushy.
Thanx for the tips. I only use COLD water to mix Durabond. I only mix with a hole-shooter and paddle. Warm water sets the material quickly so I never even considered using HOT. If you say it works, I'll try it.
Using Hot water does not seem to affect the setting time as it would with plaster. I had the same concern when first told. Try it out, it makes a BIG difference in mixing, no lumps.
BTW, where in Putnam county are you? Do you use Dain's or Dill's? I am currently working in Putnam Valley.
I am in SouthEast, not far from the Red Rooster. I know a carpenter named John ? from over your way. I used to give Dills almost all my business. Now I usually just stop by King because I am down that way all the time. They are top notch pros.
Did you read my post on Liability Insurance cost$?
Eric
Every once in a while, something goes right!
Edited 6/30/2004 7:46 am ET by firebird
Many thanks to Firebird, Frankie and Piffin. Although I've done alot of drywall out west, plaster is definitely more prevalent in the NE. Thanks for your insistence that durabond is the way to go. Just finished the drywall/plaster/mud phase in a kitchen remodel and it turned out great. Thanks guys.....keep the good info comin'.
MES
That was kind of you to reply with your results. I think that most people don't take the time to follow up as to how the project in question turned out.
Glad to be of help.
EricEvery once in a while, something goes right!
ok so you don't want to rebuild and retile the bath,can't blame ya. what i do is seal the present wallpaper/skim cat with kiltz oilbase. this seals the old problems and gives you a nice surface to skim coat. skim it with regular drywall mud ,i prefer the reg. over the lightweight because it has a little more bite to it. usally one coat will get it,if it's bad it will take 2.sand it smooth and again seal with kiltz oil base,give it a light sanding and paint.i do this quite a bit and have never had a problem. durabond is a great product but sands about 5 times harder than reg. mud so if you use it you better be good at smoothing it out!have fun and save a few $ to take gf out to dinner for removing wallpaper. larry