I have a 9 year old 2200s.f. ranch home with a hip roof. A recent home inspection by potential buyers uncovered a problem with the roof structure. I don’t have the details yet, but want to start planning how to address the problem. My questions are: 1) do I need to hire a structural engineer, a civil engineer, or a carpenter to evaulate the problem, and 2) do I have any recourse from the carpenter who built the house or the inspector who passed the framing inspection after 9 years?
Getting the details right for a wall assembly with the control layers to the exterior and lots of drying potential.
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Replies
A "structural defect" can mean a heck of a lot of different things. How about some more details?
Stick framed or trusses?
A problem with the trusses, lumber, or installation?
What exactly is the problem?
Any chance of getting some pictures?
As for recourse against the building official or builder, you'll probably have to talk to a lawyer.
If a cow laughed real hard, would milk come out her nose?
My lawyer friend who specializes in construction law says that there's a 5 year statute of limitations on defects, and that owners of 4 1/2 year old buildings go thru them with a fine tooth comb looking for stuff before that runs out. If the defect is really extremely serious, check with a lawyer. It may be that the 5 year limit doesn't apply to gross negligence. As for the city and their inspector, they're pretty much immune.
-- J.S.
Like I said, I don't have the details yet, but it is stick framed. I wasn't expecting to have the problem diagnosed via this message board. I do need to know what type of professional I need to contact to evaluate the problem.
Thanks
It's hard to suggest who to contact without having any idea what's wrong. If there are big knots in the lumber that are breaking, a carpenter could easily remedy that. If the rafters are seriously undersized or something like that you might be better off with an engineer.
Keep us posted on what happens.
Side note to John Sprung -
An engineer once told me that there's no statute of limitations on engineering. Don't really know if it's true for certain.......
Why do croutons come in airtight packages? They are only stale bread.
Hi, just a follow up on my original posting. I had a structural engineer look at the roof. I have 2 long valley rafters (2x10) that are sagging; probably should have been beefier. Plus an area at the peak of these two rafters that is cantilevered over to the ridge rafter (that's the way the roof was drawn). The plans I had did not specify rafter sizes, so the framers used their judgement. I was advised to install an LVL beam in the attic with braces supporting the valley rafters. Thanks for responding to my query.
I wanted to include the two other guys who responded, John Sprung and charlie, but can't figure out how to include more than one person on these replies.
Thanks for the update - Always nice to hear how things turned out.
I used to work in a fire hydrant factory. You couldn't park anywhere near the place.
Curiosity. What'd a structural engineer cost for something like that? A lot of people might hesitate to use one, thinking it's an arm and a leg. I use them for design, but never needed one to make a house call.
$350 for the initial visit. I thought that would do it, but they're saying the problem is more extensive and requires further work. I'm getting a proposal next week.
Thanks. Not a lot different than getting a soils engineer out for a site visit (and not much beyond a site visit and look around). And btw, good luck.
S Erickson
Try your own inspector or a good frame carpenter. The latter is your best bet.
Charlie
In my opinion the best guy to diagnose the problem is the best framer you can find. Ask around. Engineers grossly overbuild because they have to protect their butt, but they really dont have much practical experience in building (i.e., nailing wood together). They will always find something wrong because they have to justify their $350 fee. They get their information from a books not hands on experience. I would have rather you paid a good framer $350.00 and got an honest, practical appraisial. From what Ive read in this post it doesn't sound like the house is going to collapse and a good framer will have the most efficient and cost effective way to solve your problem. Good Luck!
Interesting that you mention this. The discussion with the engineer is that a stamped analysis has to be consistent with the formulas. He said that he can verbally say what he thinks is enough to do the job, but that the stamped version will be a much more extensive solution. He basically admitted it was this way to cover their butts.
I'm also having trouble finding a framer that I can trust. I tried servicemaster.com. If you're not familiar with this site, they keep a list of "preferred" providers based on input from the folks who have used them. You tell them what they want and they pass on the request to a list of contractors who can do the work. Trouble is, the contractors are supposed to contact me, but nothing so far. I've called one or two who advertise in the local paper; again, no call backs. Maybe this is the type of work these guys don't like to take.
I'll disagree with Benny to a point. A framer already used his judgement and it is failing. Now he recommends the same approach without engineering. I've got my experienced approach with rules of thumb and a program but for anything out of the ordinary,I always get an engineer involved. Benny suggests that engineers overdesign to save their butt in the liability area. At least they do so with solidly tested numbers. Carpenters need to cover their butts too, you know, or do we just figure, "Oh well, he's just a carpenter"Excellence is its own reward!
I agree with piffin, but it was better coming from a builder like him than a designer. The original statements about "all engineers this" and "engineers don't that" make me grit my teeth just like all other stereotypes. The ideal solution is to have a good engineer and a good builder involved. If they agree on a solution, it's likely a decent one. If they don't agree, and yet they're both good at what they do, they'll work till they come up with an acceptable solution. The engineer I use most has missed one or two things, and suggested one or two things that woulda been hard/expensive for me to build, but we talked it through and found a reasonable solution that met his standards and my budget. He also hit on many things that a non-engineer likely wouldn't have known. Best if the engineer and builder are on speaking terms.
Ah So!
Velly tlue, Oh Cloudy one San!
Speaky So
Excellence is its own reward!
It seems to me that the most important people in the mix have yet to be mentioned, that ever so elusive potential buyer. What will it take to satisfy their concerns, and would that be enough to preserve the sale? They might take the view that if the inspector says a little sag is OK and to be expected no biggy. On the other hand they may only trust an engineer of their choice to design the only"right way" fix that will let them buy the house without concern. If they are still interested in closing the transaction I suggest getting a little input before spending money on a fix that they won"t buy. Make sure all repair is done perfectly and beyond professional standard if we are looking for new buyers, because now it better be disclosed to the letter from now on. Remember everybody has opinions, which ones control the sale is the important question of the day! Have fun.
Dan If life was simple, I'd be done by now!
Good point piffin! I did not mean to sound so cavalier about his problem, I was more trying to illustrate that a "good" framer (i.e., years of experience and a solid track record) is, in my opinion, more useful in solving a problem like this than an engineer with no practical field experience.
Often true.
Excellence is its own reward!
Your looking in the wrong place. There must be three lumber yards in your area. Go to the owner / manager and ask for three references. Do this three times. You will have nine people to call. Most really good framers will be able to diagnose the problem over the phone. I am a general contractor in Upper Nyack, NY and I have two framing crews that are good, solid, salt of the earth people that will help someone (with advise) just for the asking. If he tells you he can start tomorrow big red flag goes up. These guys are worth their weight in gold right now, if he can start tomorrow there's probably a reason.