Hi fellas-need some help here.
Yesterday my plumber was roughing in DWV for my two new upstairs bathrooms and bored 2 3/8″ holes thru five 2×8 joists-all less than 2″ from the top of the joists. AAARRGGGGHHH
Clearly the pipe needs to be ripped out and the holes put on center. The question is how to repair the damage?
Replacing the entire joist is not really possible. The holes are NOT in the middle 1/3 of the span.
Is there a rule of thumb for sister length?
Is plywood better than dimensional lumber?
I called the bldg inspector, anonymously, and he said I need to propose a fix and they can approve it, but he won’t tell me what has been approved in the past.
Anyway, all ideas are welcome-hopefully a consensus can be reached.
Thanks
Chris
Replies
Check the connector companies catalogs. (Simpson, eta).
I think that they have some mending plates for that kind of problem.
.
A-holes. Hey every group has to have one. And I have been elected to be the one. I should make that my tagline.
Well, in a just world, you'd be allowed to have the plumber go find all the cores from his 2-3/8" hole saw, screw those to a plywood plank using the pilot hole, then epoxy them into each joist.
There Ain't No Justice, though.
No plumber worth his weight uses a "hole saw" on dimensional lumber.
We use self feeding augers & make a huge mess of wood potato chips. ;-þ
"Why do you hurt me when I do bad things to you?" My youngest son to his older brother
No plumber worth his weight uses a "hole saw" on dimensional lumber
Well, not having seen a 2.375" auger bit outside of a shipyard, I was making allowances that the plumber had hired a pimply-faced Helper who did not know any better (not having boned up for the JM exam <g>).
And, "we" all know plumbers only carry dull 3/4" spade bits, anything larger us made using a aqaure notch by way of sawzall <g> (just like it says on the Master's exame <g>; only then, you can use a chainsaw iffin y'r sawzall is broke)
<G,D&R>Occupational hazard of my occupation not being around (sorry Bubba)
I will admit I don't do a lot of wood frame construction ( unless I'm the one installing the wood) I have only plumbed about 6 houses from start to finish in my career.
I'm more of a commercial highrise guy, but when I do get to deal with wood we use these brutes.
Milwaukee 4 & 5/8"
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"Why do you hurt me when I do bad things to you?" My youngest son to his older brother
My plimbers leave a lot of shavings on the floor too. Never have seen a plug from hole saw except ones that I left there.
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They aren't that far off center. Depending on where they're at and the joist span they may be O.K.
They are pretty far off center-some as close as 3/4" from the top.A builder friend of mine said 4' sisters of 3/4 ply screwed and glued on each side. Sound reasonable??Thanks
ChrisPS why screwed not nailed??
What your friend suggested might be reasonable, but that doesn't mean the building inspector will buy it or that it will work for sure. Like I said before - It depends on the joist span, where the holes are, the species of the wood, etc. I don't think you'll get a specific answer here. Nails are probably gonna be better than screws, IMHO.
Q: Why do divorced men get married again?
A: Bad memory.
The plywood will do nothing when sistered to the sides of the joist. A 3/4" square of plywood has very little strength. better with 3/4" angle iron drilled and bolted each side. with your joist your problem is compression and you need to ensure the small section above the pipe holds.
just a thought, what about fitch plates? in fact why not have the metal guy put in the appropriate sized holes for you plumbing lines, then let the plumber come back and do it properly?
Might be overkill, but check with engineer to be sure.
3/4"x8"-4' will be plenty strong, especially if there's a piece on each side of the joists and even better if they're through-bolted and glued.
"I cut this piece four times and it's still too short."
Are you talking about the metal or the plywood?
You mean with a fitch plate or the bolts?
"I cut this piece four times and it's still too short."
Last time I had this problem, I used the largest angle iron that would fit over the pipes and through bolted. I used a piece on each side of the pipe with bolts every 8" to spread the loading over 30" each way from the cut, for a total of 60". The floor became very "stiff" after. Plywood was suggested but My gut feeling made me feel it would be useless.
Plywood is very stiff and has great resistance to deflection in that direction. Look at an I-joist. What is it? 2 2x3 with a web of OSB or plywood. What is an LVL? It's plywood. Different cement maybe, but still plywood. I'm not saying that cheap plywood should be used but it's a very valid way to add stiffness to a floor. The stiffness:weight ratio is pretty high. When I was in school for architecture (at an engineering school), we went through all of this. There are several material testing labs in Wisconsin and most make training videos for schools, the government, lumber manufacturers, etc.
"I cut this piece four times and it's still too short."
Edited 12/1/2007 8:43 pm by highfigh
Problem in this case is the section of plywood is only 3/4" by 3/4" where it passes over the pipe hole which is where the strength is needed. If a full 8" could be used it would be OK.
3/4"x3/4" anything will be too weak. I thought the dork left more than that and the pipes were coming out, then the joist would be re-bored. I was thinking that the whole width would be available for the plywood. I would let the plumber fail the inspection. There's no reason someone else should fix his screw-ups.
"I cut this piece four times and it's still too short."
>> They are pretty far off center-some as close as 3/4" from the top.<< understand that they all can't all be centered. The plumber has to get some fall on his pipe, typically 1/4" per foot, meaning that if there is an 8' horizontal run of pipe then one end of the pipe needs to be up to 2" higher than the other end.
If it were me and the plumbing inspector and buildinspector says it's OK, I'd sister something on there for good measure and have a nice day. I doubt that the inspectors will accept it though.
As an aside, 2x8 joists are pretty minimal. As a rule of thumb, we don't use those on new construction for house floor systems. What is the overall span of these joists?
>> A builder friend of mine said 4' sisters of 3/4 ply screwed and glued on each side. Sound reasonable??
ThanksChris
PS why screwed not nailed?? <<
In my experience nails are specified more often than screws. In the instances that screws were called out, they would be speced for something specific like x" SDS screws (a specific type made by Simpson Strontie).
general info: For anyone who is not familiar with joist drilling rules, for some examples, look at this web page. I think it is a bit confusing the way they did it though... It talks about sistering, but again, it's confusing the way it's presented. Page 10 of this document has a more concise description.
Also, I found this chart which is pretty useful.
The solution is pretty simple ...
First, you let the plumber fail inspection. Then you have HIM figure out a way to fix it - in a way the inspector approves.
If the plumber balks, you fix it, and back charge him.
The 'rules' for boring holes are well known, are far from new, and there is simply no excuse for the plumber to ignore them.
The 'rules' for boring holes are well known, are far from new, and there is simply no excuse for the plumber to ignore them.
Really?
I don't know them all------ but I would look them up before I drilled through floor joists.
Rules for plumbing are well known & are very far from new, but I have yet to see an architect understand the simplest ones.
"Why do you hurt me when I do bad things to you?" My youngest son to his older brother
Are the rules for boring framing members in the plumbing code? (what plumbing code you use in WA?) BTW we use the 2000 IPC although I think we might be getting ready to change to a new version here in NC.
The rules are clearly stated in the residential building code, but that doesn't seem like a very logical place to put stuff that plumbers have to know. We use IRC2002 but are getting ready to change to IRC 2006.
I know our plumbing inspectors are very dialed in on the whole situation since my projects have gotten pink slips several times. Our BIs check it too.
Just as an FYI for any novices reading this, this issues applies to studs and top plates too.
We use the UPC for plumbing in the state of Wa.
It does not cover structural members, & IMO it shouldn't. With countless floor joist systems on the market & more entering stating the rules for every system would be cumbersome. Other than dimensional lumber most BI in my neck of the woods don't make a call on structural penetrations, & want to see something in writing from an engineer. In the major populated areas ( Seattle, Bellevue, Tacoma et al) the inspectors are specialized, PI's are licensed plumbers etc etc etc......
Washington does use the IRC, but the plumbing section was not adopted by the state.
We just adopted the 2006 UPC which is being a pain at the moment, cause the 20 story condo project we just started is on the 2003 code. The new code has a few changes & horizontal wet venting is one of them. I have to keep telling my new journeymen & apprentices that this bldg is on the old code & we cannot switch to the new code in mid stride, or the inspector will make us change everything to the new code.
"Why do you hurt me when I do bad things to you?" My youngest son to his older brother
Plumbers get their education when someone hits them in the pocket books.I'd offer the plumber this option: call a carpenter and pay him to fix the joists and get it approved by the BI, or let me do it and be prepared to pay the bill. My fix would be to double up all the joist and then have the plumber come back and re install the plumbing. If the mechanicals need removing and replacing, he'll pay those bills too.I'd also mark up all the labor and materials 50% and make assessments for delays, interest payments, consulting time and loss of stature in the BI eyes. I'm looking at up to $2k if you honestly assess it right. I dont' mind that the plumber f'ed it up but I do mind that he's not willing to accept the responsibility for it in a professional manner. Telling me that he's f'ed up thousands of them in his career really doesn't cut it with me. FKA Blue (eyeddevil)
The plumber doesn't fail inspection unless his pipes don't have the correct pitch. The framing fails because there are holes in the wrong spot. FKA Blue (eyeddevil)
Depending on the condition of the wood in that area, the span and load above, you might not have to do anything.
I'd be inclined to add more wood below the pipes on both sides of the joists rather than pull the pipes and replumb.
Good luck with that.
Beer was created so carpenters wouldn't rule the world.
I called the bldg inspector, anonymously, and he said I need to propose a fix and they can approve it, but he won't tell me what has been approved in the past.
You expect them to make a command decision & stick their neck out---- LOL fat chance of that happening.
If it fails inspection I would propose 8" steel stud track in 16g wrapped around the floor joists, & it would be a back charge to the plumber ofcourse.
Was it a simple mistake, miscommunication, or was the guy a knowitall , but found out he didn't ;-)
The plumber came back today and said
"I've been plumbing for 30 years and I've always done it this way, the inspectors are getting so picky"I'm not trying to bust this guy's chops, I just don't want my DW to land in the living room in her new tub...Plumber will get the building inspector on Tues AM-if he signs off, fine.
If not he said he would not double bill me for the work (as long as I fix the joists) Maybe I should stick to my day job...I'll try to post a pic tomorrow if I canThanks for all the suggestions.
Plumber will get the building inspector on Tues AM-if he signs off, fine.If not he said he would not double bill me for the work (as long as I fix the joists)
If the inspector fails it and it has to be fixed because this dumbass plumber ruined the joists, this dumbass told you he will not double bill you as long as you fix it???????
You are joking, right? If not and it does fail, fix it and deduct whatever your time is worth from from this POS and then tell him go jump into the nearest SEWER. where he belongs with the rest of the sh!t....................
Joe Carola
Edited 11/30/2007 10:33 pm ET by Framer
"If not he said he would not double bill me for the work (as long as I fix the joists)"I was cruising along okay until I read "as long as I fix the joists". Okay, now I'm spitting mad.I hope you haven't paid him anything. If not...don't. He ruined the joist and he's going to be kind enough not to double bill you?!!!!!! Only if you fix the joists????!!!!!I'm fairly easy to get along with until you say some stupid thing like that. FKA Blue (eyeddevil)
exactly! I don't know whether to spit or laugh at that line
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Another dumbass plumber that drills holes where they're not supposed to and ruins the joists because they are so stupid. These idiots that do this should be shot. How stupid can these idiots get? You don't know where to drill hole, you find out. It's just plain common sense that these idiots don't have.
I guess we should start drilling holes in their pipes everytime they drill holes in our joists? Same dumbass thing, right?
Any real plumber wont argue with me on this. Any so called plumber who tries to argue this can go jump off a bridge............
So tell us how you really feel!
Don't get him started on roll-offs
Barry E-Remodeler
Don't get him started on roll-offs
You don't want to go there now, do you?
Joe Carola
not right now anyhow. :)
Barry E-Remodeler
So tell us how you really feel!
I would get kicked off the forum if I did tell you how I really feel about these amateur , degenerate, dopey bastards who do this.
Joe Carola
Edited 12/1/2007 4:48 pm ET by Framer
If everyone was perfect, we would be average. ;)
Start by perforating the plumber
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Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime.
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Solid wood is usually the best bet if you do it with wood. Plywood can fall apart if it gets wet and it isn't really designed for that stress on edge.
Sistering another 2x8 would work but it would have to long enough and nailed well.
Maybe some PL between them?
"Plywood can fall apart if it gets wet and it isn't really designed for that stress on edge."Tell that to a BCI.
"Plywood can fall apart if it gets wet"????So what - solid wood can split if it gets dry
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
I didn't explain myself well enough. I just want to clarify what I was trying to say. I think it is always best to use solid lumber. Big solid beams have a proven track record. They can sag considerably and not fail. They can take abuse and neglect. We've been building with stone, wood, and more recently steel for a long time. It works.
Overbuilding with these three materials works. But now the price of materials has gone up and labor has also. So we are building with manufactured products. I'm not saying they don't work. But when possible I still prefer to overbuild with these three things. I like building really strong stuff. I like solid wood. I like steel. I like stone or concrete.
My point was that sistering 2 x 8s along side of the existing ones works really well.
I was talking about building in general and not about his specific problem.
He has a pipe running through his 2 x8s so sistering is probably not going to happen. I'm assuming the pipes won't come out. So something else needs to happen. The angle iron and plywood would work fine if they are done right. It's just that sistering some 2x8s along the existing ones with a bunch of nails in it is pretty hard to mess up. That's what i was trying to say. Does that make sense?
Just to play devil's advocate, could the plumber have run his pipes in a manner where they do not perforate the joists more than code allows while still maintaining the minimum fall he needs on his waste lines?
Are you the GC or the framer?
I'm not a plumber, but I do feel a little bit for them because of the rap that they get. I think sometimes it's not deserved.
Designer's and GC's need to understand that HVAC ducts and plumbing wastes lines are a little more demanding than Romex and copper supply lines. If a designer draws and a GC builds a structure that forces the plumbers & HVAC guys to either chop the joists up or run their lines below the ceiling, they can't complain too loudly.
A good plumber and HVAC guy would at least give you the decency of a call to confirm how you want to handle the situation, but not all are good or conscientious.
Jon Blakemore
RappahannockINC.com Fredericksburg, VA
>>A good plumber and HVAC guy would at least give you the decency of a call to confirm how you want to handle the situation, but not all are good or conscientious<<
It's the attitude of cut first and ask later that burns me. I build to the prints and if he can't make it work without destroying structure a pow wow needs to be scheduled.
Most of the time things like this are caught in our initial meeting with all the subs before footings are poured. But sometimes change orders screw that up.
I had a HVAC guy cut out a beam for a cold air return on the second floor of a house one. He didn't think anything about it. That house could have caved in on him and everyone else. 2 ft to the left and the beam could have been left in tact and the return could still be in the same room. $4,000 to fix that screw up on him.
Matt- Woods favorite carpenter.
I build to the prints and if he can't make it work without destroying structure a pow wow needs to be scheduled.
That's why I love plan spec jobs.
More often than not the drawings show my pipes passing through structural members, now remember wood framing is an anomaly to me, I mostly deal with steel I beams & PT concrete.
I am the change order king when it comes to this re routing, gc's get a bit pissed at the extra charge cause of the paperwork generated, but my response is should have hired a better engineer/detailer.
All in all if I followed the prints to a T then more often than not I would have piping passing through walkways & stair cases.
"Why do you hurt me when I do bad things to you?" My youngest son to his older brother
We all run into issues with prints, most of the time it's stairs don't fit within code. Something has to give and I call the GC or HO and we discuss options until everyone is happy.
Not all plumbers and mechanical guys are bad, and I won't lump a few bad ones in with the field of good ones.
You guys get the shaft due to current home designs, wide open floor plans and lumber spanned to the max. Headers and beams burried in floors, flush framing and cantalievers all present mechanical issues. Any holes in that framing results in a failure of inspections and lumber.
Matt- Woods favorite carpenter.
If the archies plan it right, your pipes could be used as handrails <G>
"I'm not a plumber, but I do feel a little bit for them because of the rap that they get. I think sometimes it's not deserved.":Good point.
I schedule a meet with a plumber to ask where are we going to have to run this line, do you need a chase or soffit dropped, etc.I have pretty good plumbers.But I still get situations where after planning all that out and specifically telling them do NOT cut this *_structural member_* in any7 way, they go and notch or bore through it!Often it is when The details get worked out between master plumber and myself, then he sends his novices over to do the work without 'splaining to them...They learn quick though when it costs them money.
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
"I'm not a plumber, but I do feel a little bit for them because of the rap that they get. I think sometimes it's not deserved."It's deserved.Most of them have gotten away with hacking stuff up so often that they actually feel like they are entitled to cut through anything they want. Usually, the damage they do is just a nuisance and everyone looks the other way, or fixes it themselves because it's easy enough and more trouble to get the plumber back there. Besides, their carpentry skills usually make things worse.Generally speaking, all of the mechanical trades tend to butcher the load bearing members with impunity because they don't suffer the financial results enough. Often builders/gcs tend to patronize them whereas framers don't really care and will tell them like it is. FKA Blue (eyeddevil)
Blue,I have run across some good plumbers here who will not butcher up the structure, I guess we're more lucky than you because it sounds like you've had very few good experiences.I also think that a good sub would never hack through something that could be identified as a significant structural member without consulting with the GC.Still, I must be feeling soft today because I have some empathy for them. It's just like when you look at a set of prints and realize that the designer had absolutely no plan to support the second floor joists or some big point load. A good GC will meet with that plumber and find a way to get the pipes through that works for both of them. But of course, I'm not telling you anything you don't already know.I do think there are a lot of bad GC's and plumbers out there who deserve every bit of your castigation.
Jon Blakemore RappahannockINC.com Fredericksburg, VA