We just recently purchased a new house and the vinyl flooring has some serious problems. The sub that the builder used for the flooring installation couldn’t seem to grasp the idea that the pneumatic stapler used to secure the 1/4″ luan subfloor needs to have staples put in it every once in a while. The 1/4″ luan plywood subfloor and the vinyl sheet flooring were put in before the cabinets were installed and cover the entire floor, even underneath the cabinets. Now the probem is the 1/4″ luan plywood is not attached to the 3/4″ OSB and has some huge bubbles in it. The sub who installed the floor would like to nail down the existing flooring, apply a leveling compound over the existing vinyl and put new vinyl over that. To me, not knowing any better, this sounds like the creation of problems for further down the road when cabinets have to be replaced, etc. I would really appreciate any ideas and suggestions on how this sounds for a solution or possibly any other solutions.
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tear it up, cut at the toe kick w/a util knife, new 1/4'', new vinyl.
Sorry, but thats what I'd do.
Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
Repairs, Remodeling, Restorations.
What sphere said...
The vinyl really doesn't have to be under the cabinets, and is often installed after the cabinets anyway. Another important detail is that the fasteners used need to penetrate all the way through the subfloor, so if they are narrow crown staples, they need to be 1 1/2". I've seen this happen before. It's not that easy to tell when the stapler is out, so you have to keep checking...
Yep... tear it up.
The method you describe will just be a patch that is filled with all kinds of issues that could come back and bite ya.
No need to worry about under the cabs, but the floor has got to come up and be done right.
Just an note on luan. It is not recommended anymore. Use 1/4 birch flooring or flooring recommended by your vinyl installer. kellyw
Greetings, and welcome to BT.
Flooring before the cabinets makes for an easier job for the flooring guy, but it sure can be a pain later. Half-a job added in is just more "fun."
Is this sheet vinyl or tiles? (Just curious, same tear out either way.)
I'm going to guess that the base cabinets are in, with the full countertop and splash (as that is about as bad as it could be, and would be the biggest backcharge on the flooring sub--which is why he wants avoid it).
It really needs to come all the way out and go back in properly. Nailing through what is existing, then trying to level that out & refloor over that just has loads of "potential" for later. All they have to do is miss a floating sheet that hasnt bubbled (yet). All of the threshold floor transitions will be replaced, and non-standard heights (very few things as annoying as nearly tripping every time you enter your kitchen).
Be sure they floor back into the dishwaser & range spaces, too. Finding the DW is behind a 11/32" lip in the floor makes for a stressfull DW replacement.
Sphere has the right idea. Tear it out (leave the stuff under the cabinets). weav has the right idea about the laun. Make sure it is OK to use luan under the new vinyl (manufacturer's website might have the info).
The last sheet floor I put down was Manington and I think they did NOT recommend laun. That didn't bother me since I wanted to build up the floor a bit anyway (put 1/2" plywood in).
jt8
Yep, we do a lot of vinyl and Sphere is right. Tear it up to the toe kick and start over. We use BC plywood as Luan is typically not recomended by most manufactures as the color in the luan will sometimes bleed through to the vinyl. DanT
Interesting... I didn't know about the luan color thing... Matt
You knew about the lack of ext glue in some luan that releases the laminations typically when the latex adhesive for the vinyl soaks in. This will bubble that thin #### similar to what the original poster mentions. Even if they nailed the hell out of it, the top layer (the staple shot through) just puffs up. Another reason to pull it up, this delaminating just continues elsewhere in the field.Remodeling Contractor just outside the Glass City.
Quittin' Time
Thats interesting. I had never heard that or had a problem with it. We just switched to meet the manufactures warranty issues just in case. I have seen it bubble for too much glue and a lack of nailing/screwing/stapling. We staple in a 8" pattern.
But the color through issue was the one that got us to switch. Sure didn't want to have to pull a job back up do to that issue so we switched. Added about $20 to the job, just a pass through. DanT
A. If luan is acceptable to the manufacturer I don't understand why you can't staple the h_ll out of it, through the existing vinyl, level, and revinyl it.
B. Actually, by cutting out the the flooring at the toe kick you are establishing a vulnerable seam should you have a flood. (kitchen or bathroom?)
C. When you pull up the existing vinyl, you will also damage the underlayment/ luan, if a decent quality adhesive was used, and there will also be some/ lots of adhesive remaining. Some sort of patching/ levelind material will be in order.
D. Ardex makes a leveling/ patching material that is formulated for patching and another for smoothing vinyl flooring. Unbelievable stuff. At their seminar they offer hands on demonstrations. Applied to embossed vinyl makes the vinyl super smooth. Fills the staple holes too. Dries in 45min IIRC.
E. You will only be adding less than 1/8" to the floor height by laminating only. A ripout and reinstall will add a floor height since you will be patching over the adhesive. They may even decide to resheath the underlayment which will add add'l height.
F. Laminating will also take less time and less oppertunity for damaging the new cabinet. BTW - regardless of which approach you take - remove the base cabinet doors, range, ref, and dw and cover/ protect the countertops before they begin.
F.
Well, for that matter you could cut out the blistered areas, level, then staple new underlayment down and lay the new vinyl. But I read it as though the current underlayment was not nailed much so why not just remove the whole deal? Just pull up the vinyl and underlayment in on shot. Not that hard.
I don't agree with the seam at the toe kick argument. Most floors I have seen stop at the toe kick anyway so why should this one be different? I see your point but I am saying anytime a floor is revinyled it usually has underlayment stapled down then vinyl layed. They don't remove all the cabinets to do that. And frankly even most new construction I have dealt with (limited but some) have the vinyl layed up to the cabinets. Although I don't think its a negative to do so.
I don't know of a manufacture who is ok'ing luan right now. At least none of the leading manufactures offered around here. If they are good at vinyl and underlayment door removal and counter issues should be moot, but then again if that were all true we wouldn't be discussing this would we? DanT
To adress:
1....more probs w/ height
2....if it floods yer screwed anyway..that seam ain't gonna matter
3...if he didn't staple it well, do ya think there is GLUE?
4....WHY?
5....any one who has done this, can tell you "it's not that hard"
6...your ?....I'd guesss..$$$$
Tear it up, SEE the Sub, layit to it,,be gone in a day..collect the forgone $$$$ an go home,,,happy customer, read his CONCERN in his post..
Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
Repairs, Remodeling, Restorations.
Thanks everyone very much for your input. We'll talk with the builder a bit more this week so all of your help is much appreciated.