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help with floor joist installation

pope78 | Posted in General Discussion on March 30, 2006 02:04am

We’ve gutted our 100+ yr. old kitchen and cemented the crawlspace underneath. We pulled up a lot of floors, underlayment, etc. to get the cement in and find out what was going on with the really wavy floor. We had to take out some of the timbers that were used for joists because the were warped and some were not even secured and just moved side to side anyway. What we’re trying to figure out is how to put the new joists in when the walls rest on the existing timbers. If we fit the new joists under the wall they will have to be only 4 in. We know that is not enough to support a floor and at least want to use 2×6’s and a beam underneath to build the floor. A friend with carpentry experience told us to run a board screwed to the level line around the wall and hang the joists on that with a beam underneath. Is this too much weight pulling on the wall? We’d rather not make the floor that high but if it’s our only option we’ll live with it. He also said if we take the timbers out we should put a board underneath all the wall studs to help with the weight of the wall. The kitchen is about 11 ft. wide in the direction the joists would run. Is it a bad idea to use 2×10 instead and notch them to rest on the foundation walls so it doesnt raise the floor? Does notching make you lose the strength of a 2×10 so it’s only as strong as what’s resting on the foundation ( about 4 inches)? Are there any other options? We have to get this floor built soon as we have to walk on it to get to bathroom, kid’s room,etc. Any help would be appreciated. I’ll try to put a picture too. How do you paste pictures right on the post? When I right click the mouse to include the picture it won’t let me choose paste. If anyone knows please let me know so I can post pictures of the floor also. Thanks ( I’m new here)


Edited 3/29/2006 7:07 pm ET by pope78

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  1. philarenewal | Mar 30, 2006 02:17am | #1

    You mention notching the joists to sit on the foundation, so the top of your foundation must be within about 5" of your desired floor height.

    A picture would help, but one approach is to bolt a ledger board to the foundation and hang the joists on that.   I don't know what your foundation looks like or exactly where is is in relation to the bottom of the walls.  There are other options too.

     

    "A job well done is its own reward.  Now would you prefer to make the final payment by cash, check or Master Card?"

    1. pope78 | Mar 30, 2006 02:35am | #3

      I'm trying to figure out how to put pictures on here still,but I do have 'em! The top of the foundation is not level at all and looks like field stone with some mortar. It's pretty crumbly in some spots. Can you bolt to a foundation like that? The walls are anywhere from 4.5" to 5.5" from the foundation depending on what part of the room you're in. (very unlevel obviously) Also there is a board underneath some of the timbers which I think may be called a sill plate. Some places dont have it (either it rotted or was never under all of them, I'm not sure).

      1. philarenewal | Mar 30, 2006 02:43am | #4

        >>The top of the foundation is not level at all and looks like field stone with some mortar. It's pretty crumbly in some spots. Can you bolt to a foundation like that?

        Nope.

        Again, need a picture.  Another wild guess without seeing is would be to attach a ledger to the timbers resting of the top of the foundation and use a type of joist hangars that hang below the ledger. 

        "A job well done is its own reward.  Now would you prefer to make the final payment by cash, check or Master Card?"

        1. pope78 | Mar 30, 2006 02:57am | #5

          file:///F:/DCIM/100K7590/100_0300.JPGI think maybe if you paste this in your browser it will take you to a picture of the joists and foundation. Let me know if it works (??)

          1. philarenewal | Mar 30, 2006 02:59am | #6

            Nope.

            Try using the "attach files" button at the bottom of the reply window.  It works for some and not for others.  Has something to do with popup blocking or something like that.  Anyway, worth a try. 

            "A job well done is its own reward.  Now would you prefer to make the final payment by cash, check or Master Card?"

          2. pope78 | Mar 30, 2006 05:57am | #9

            I hope this works and you can see the picture. I still can't figure out how to copy and paste it right on the message but I'll get it sooner or later. I have many more pictures if this one doesn't show the problem well enough, I just have to figure out my picture and browser programs a little better. Another question I have is whether or not you can just use joist hangers and a beam if we do it that way. Does that mean all your floor weight(appliances, etc.) is supported by metal hangers? Thanks.

          3. User avater
            zak | Mar 30, 2006 06:52am | #10

            More pictures would help, doing them as attachments is fine. embedding them is just a nifty trick.
            How far would these span? it looks like maybe a 4 x 6 timber in there now. I suppose there's always the option of putting in timbers again alongside the old ones, but that's a lot of work. Are the beam ends and the rim joist solid, no rot?
            Joist hangars will hold the load just fine if used properly, but there's also the issue of having a fairly level floor. 2 or 3 inches of step up at edge of the room is not safe. It would be better to use small joists with lots of intermediate supports.
            zak

          4. pope78 | Mar 30, 2006 08:03am | #11

            Some more pictures. The one (dinkit) with the threshold in it is the dining room. We'd like them to be on the same level but what would you use, 4x4's or something? Would smaller floor joists be enough support? I asked before about notching 2x6's but still haven't heard anything yet. Does notching the joists a couple inches on the foundation wall make sense so it is level with the dining room, or does notching it make it only as strong as a 2x4 since there would only be about 4 of the inches actually attached to the foundation wall or ledge? Not much experience with framing, foundations, etc. and a contractor that looked at the floor before we took out timbers and wood floor said even if he did try to level it(before we decided to gut completely), he's busy on jobs till July. No way we can get around the house with three little ones and no floor till July. We're going to do it ourselves. Lots of fun. I just don't want to cause any structural problems with the walls since they are built on the timbers. Too late for the ones we already took out. thanks.

          5. User avater
            zak | Mar 30, 2006 09:28am | #13

            I think at this point you may want to talk to some other contractors, and see about getting some experienced help. You could get away with notching joists, but they're not very strong that way, and more importantly, if the foundation is as crumbly as you say, that may need to be addressed. You say the sill plate has rotted out in some places- the whole house may not be on solid footing. It's real hard to tell from my side of the computer, but I would urge you to figure out the whole problem before you patch a little part of it. Where are you, by the way? you can click on your name on the screen and edit your profile to give us more information about yourself.zak

          6. Miko | Mar 30, 2006 09:28am | #14

            What if you run 2x4 lvl's or douglas fir 16" on center across the 11ft and put an I-beam down the center (5.5ft) to support the weight in the middle.  Depending on your location you may have to cut into your poured concrete and put a footing for this beam as much as 3ft down.  If you glue and screw plywood subfloor to the 2x4,s this should provide a sound floor for your kitchen.  Of course this would need to meet approval with your local city codes.

          7. MikeHennessy | Mar 30, 2006 02:49pm | #16

            Hmmmm.  Like others said, kind of hard to tell what's going on, even with the pictures. If I was faced with the situation (as I think I understand it), and the foundation & sill plate are in decent shape - or easily repaired - I think I'd frame walls in the basement to support new 2" X 10" joists at both ends.

            Mike HennessyPittsburgh, PA

          8. ClevelandEd | Mar 30, 2006 03:26am | #7

            I'm looking forward to the picture too.   And the followup comments.  I have some joist work to do on a room in my place this summer.

            Posting a link like that won't work because it isn't really a link.  It just specifies the location on your computer, but we don't have access to get into your PC.

          9. pope78 | Mar 30, 2006 03:39am | #8

            Ha ha. Shows how much I know about it. I've seen other people post pictures on thier messages that weren't attachments or links. I'm trying to figure out how to do that since it won't let me attach it either. I'll keep trying.

  2. woodway | Mar 30, 2006 02:26am | #2

    I've tried to read this post, twice in fact. The second time was slower than the first and I still don't get it. I thought I had it but I don't.

  3. notascrename | Mar 30, 2006 08:27am | #12

    what you're dealing with is a post snd beam house, studs come down and sit on the beams, right? I've seen the beams notched to hold the floor joists-ends of joists were still cut so only about 4 inches of joist was above beam. I'd use 2/10 joists cut for the original height and apply 3/4 plywood gussets to each side to keep the joists from splitting. be sure to close the opening in the stud bays where they are open at the bottom so you don't have a "chimney" for air to blow up. Jim Devier

  4. Danno | Mar 30, 2006 02:35pm | #15

    I agree with zak; before you pour lots of money and sweat into this house, make sure you have a good foundation under it. Sounds like what you have now is a crumbling mess. You can build a palace on top of that, but if the foundation caves in, then what? I'd get someone out there who has experience and have this checked out (by a structural engineer or a building inspector). It'd be a lot easier to to have the foundation repaired (if possible) and plumbed and leveled so you have a level base to work from. May have to jack the house up and put a new foundation under it.

    1. pope78 | Mar 31, 2006 01:51am | #17

      We had a builder check out the foundation before we bought the house a year ago and he said it was fine, been here 100 yrs. or more and still standing, not sinking, etc. What I think is crumbling is something that someone added on top of the foundation, maybe to level it or something. It is under the plate and around it. It looks like a layer of mortar or something. As far as the sill plate rotting, the more I keep looking at it, the more I think it's just missing in areas, not actually rotting, wet, etc. I will attach a picture of it so I can see what you think. If everything is sound, I'd rather not jack up the house and mess with the foundation and find some other way to level the joists. My husband says we're putting the joists in this weekend one way or another so I will have him read some posts before we buy the lumber so he can decide what we're doing. I've told him about some of the ideas and he liked a couple of them, so we're really grateful for any info. Check out the broken joist picture. The more floor pulled up, the worse it gets. Ha ha.

      1. philarenewal | Mar 31, 2006 02:13am | #18

        Now having seen it, yeah that's a problem.  Gives me a bit of a headache trying to come up with something.  All I can come up with are two options:

        1. put the joists on the sill plate, and cut a small notch in the very ends of the joists so the wall plate (that is on top of the timbers) slips into that notch.  This will raise the floor height so I don't particularly like the idea.

        2. notch the joists so the can sit on the sill plate with the tops of the joists below the wall plate, but get an engineer to sign off on what they need to look like at the ends.  If I remember right you have a 10' span.  I don't see just 4" at the ends supporting that.   You might need to double up the joists or fasten plywood scabs at the ends.  Don't be afraid of the engineers.  It doesn't really cost that much. 

        "A job well done is its own reward.  Now would you prefer to make the final payment by cash, check or Master Card?"

        1. pope78 | Mar 31, 2006 03:41am | #19

          Thanks for the advice. It really gives us some issues to think about. My husband called from work and wants to order wood so it will be here by Saturday. He thinks it would be a good idea to consult an engineer. Problem is a guy from work can help us build the floor Sat. and thats the only time he and my husband can do it because of overtime and shift changes for probably the next month. We want the kids to be able to come home and we need a floor to get to their rooms. Seems stupid to rush it and not consult someone, but family life gets in the way sometimes of doing things perfect (ha ha). So anyway thats why I'm trying to get quick opinions of pros.
          You said 4in on the side wouldn't be enough support probably. What about having a beam or two underneath the notched 2x8 or 10's with a post into the cement floor as somebody else suggested? (running perp. to the joists in the center).

          Edited 3/30/2006 8:42 pm ET by pope78

          1. philarenewal | Mar 31, 2006 05:08am | #20

            A beam on posts in the center would do it, but then you get into what exactly are the posts resting on.   Believe it or not, a concrete floor isn't exactly bedrock, depending on its thickness, how it was made and what it rests on.

            What you are "supposed" to do is cut out a block of the existing concrete and create a pad on undisturbed ground.  To give a forinstance, I have to put in a spiral stair for a house I hope to start on "any day now" (still waiting on permits) and the architect is calling for a 2'x2' pad 10 inches thick with rebar embedded in it to rest the center post on.  A spiral stair is pretty heavy, but so is a portion of 100' sq. of floor. 

            "A job well done is its own reward.  Now would you prefer to make the final payment by cash, check or Master Card?"

          2. User avater
            zak | Mar 31, 2006 05:14am | #21

            Yeah, it would help to support in the middle. a 5 or 6 foot span isn't really too much, a 2 x 6 would actually handle that. But just to be sure, 2 x 8s would be good. That center beam that goes down to the crawlspace floor will need a few footings unless you poured the concrete really thick. 6 or 8 inches thick, 10" square would do fine, then put a metal post base in that thing, and put doubled up 2x8s on top of the post, with another metal connector there. metal connectors are your friends. That beam should only span 4 feet or so between posts, and here I'm just estimating, not calculating out all the possibilities.It looks like the inside edge of the foundation is lower than the sill- I would put a pressure treated 2x4 sill there, anchored into the concrete/rock, if it's solid. Then you might not have to notch so much out of the joists where they rest.zak

          3. User avater
            razzman | Mar 31, 2006 06:38am | #22

             

             

              

             

            'Nemo me impune lacesset'No one will provoke me with impunity

          4. pope78 | Mar 31, 2006 07:45am | #23

            What would you anchor them with?

            Edited 3/31/2006 12:51 am ET by pope78

          5. dgbldr | Mar 31, 2006 08:09am | #24

            One word: Steel.

            DG/Builder

          6. pope78 | Mar 31, 2006 06:20pm | #27

            Steel what? I-beams? To frame with?

          7. dgbldr | Mar 31, 2006 07:36pm | #28

            Beams, joists or any other elements needed to support your floor structure. When you don't have enough room or the configuration is such that it is not practical to put a satisfactory wood structure, you can almost always do it in steel. Another advantage of steel is that you can insert a full length steel joist or beam in otherwise impractical places by making it in 2 halves and welding or bolting the 2 halves together after insertion.  This is not always practical with wood.

            Edit: Not to be offensive in any way, but I honestly believe your situation is well beyond DIY, unless one of you is an architect or structural engineer (in which case you wouldn't have asked).  The best advice already given is to pay a structural engineer to look at it and devise a solution.  You will end up money ahead and with a better house.

            DG/Builder

            Edited 3/31/2006 12:45 pm ET by dgbldr

          8. User avater
            Soultrain | Mar 31, 2006 08:04pm | #29

            What if you used 2x4's @ 2" OC   ;D

          9. dgbldr | Apr 01, 2006 03:29am | #31

            What if you used 2x4's @ 2" OC   ;D

            Sure. And right after you do that, why don't you program a few e-commerce applications in ALGOL?

            ;)

            DG/Builder

             

          10. pope78 | Apr 01, 2006 04:25am | #33

            Now there's an idea....

          11. pope78 | Apr 01, 2006 04:24am | #32

            I totally understand what your saying and I'm not offended. I thought I would check out what some people thought of the situation and am grateful for the good advice. At this point in time we don't have the money to redo foundation, or make major changes with the structure that an engineer might want done. Had we known what we were getting into, we probably wouldn't have even tore anything up until we had time, money, etc. Hindsight is 20/20. I would have been satisfied with a wavy lino floor & some new cupboards. Right now we're kind of thinking any joist taller than 4 or 6 inches would be an improvement over what's been there the last 100 years. We just want it safe and flat and supported. We will also be adding beams underneath and they weren't there before so that's going to help some. I know this kind of DIY probably irritates builders but like I said before I have three little ones waiting to come home and were running out of $$ and time. I will post a picture of the joists when we're done and you guys can use them for examples of why you should hire people to do this stuff for you. Ha Ha

          12. rfarnham | Apr 01, 2006 05:45am | #34

            Since you are going to do it anyway...a few thoughts:I can't tell from the pictures if you have some kind of rim joist running around the perimeter helping to hold up the wall. What is holding up the studs that are in the gaps between your old joists/beams? If they are sitting on a good rim joist then the spacing of your floor joists can be whatever you want. If there is not a rim joist, I would get your new joists into that space under the studs to prevent sag in your wall.I'm not an engineer, but my understanding is that a notched 2x6 or 2x8 would be an improvement over 2x4s, but you should definitely consider adding the plywood someone suggested. There is a limit on how big a notch is useful (it may be 1/3 of the height max, but I'm not the person to answer that). Notching a 2x12 down to 4" wouldn't be worth the cost of the 2x12. Use pressure treated joists and probably pressure treated ply as well. 3/4 in. ply on both sides of the joist, glued with const. adhesive (PL400) and some 8d hot dipped galvanized nails (don't use regular nails with pressure treated, including when you nail or screw down your subfloor into the PT wood) will do a decent job. It may not be what the engineer specs, but if you're going to do it anyway...If you care, this is a good chance to level your floor. I think I saw a rotary laser level in one of those pictures. Use it to establish a level line on the studs all the way around the room. Measure down to find the highest section of your floor and adjust the notches on your new joists so that the tops of the new joists all come out even with the highest point. You will have to start cutting notches on top and bottom since you are squeezing into the space under the wall. This is a lot of work, I just did it on my house that shares many of your problems. It came out great.Definitely consider adding that beam midspan that many here have suggested. If you have to get on with life and don't have time to deal with cutting the concrete, etc, you could consider building a wall in midspan (perpendicular to the joists) that sits on the crawlspace floor. You did say that you just poured a slab on the crawlspace floor, right? Get some powder actuated fasteners (they shoot nails into concrete or steel) and nail down a PT bottom plate. Use a plumb line to nail a top plate to the bottom of the joists, and then cut studs to fit. Put a stud under every joist. Again, not the perfect solution. Your slab was not designed for this, but since you're going to do it anyway, you might think about this.Good luck! Let us know what you did.-Rich

          13. pope78 | Apr 01, 2006 06:15am | #35

            Thanks for the advice. I don't think what is under my wall studs would be considered a rim joist. It actually lays flat on top of the timbers. One idea that was given to us today regarding the wall support was to jack the wall a little bit to the level line and put treated blocks of 4x4 underneath each stud. That way we could cut them different heights depending on how unlevel each area is under the wall. That was just an idea for support if we don't notch the floor joists to fit under the wall.
            I think your center wall idea is a good one and probably the most practical in our situation. Joists are going in tomorrow one way or another so I'll post some pictures after the weekend if everything goes as planned. Well, half-planned...

          14. fossil | Apr 01, 2006 08:08am | #36

            Just a thought. Would it be possible to put treated 2 by 4's on their sides, glued together under the bottom plate of the wall between existing beams, then screw/bolt a ledger of 2 by 6 or 8 and hang joist hangers off that?It appears in the first photo the foundation top drops off a bit inward, maybe 2" or so, flush with the inside of the wall bottom plate. Wouldn't that give 6-8" to hang and bolt the ledger, depending on where the highest part of the unlevel floor meets the bottom plate of the wall?Hang joist hangers off that, put the perpendicular support beam or wall midspan and be good to go so to speak?And even ripping the treated 2 by 4's or slightly jacking up if need be to fit between the bottom plate of wall and foundation.Maybe just DIY babble, but I can relate to the kid factor which tends to rush things along.

          15. pope78 | Apr 24, 2006 11:06pm | #38

            Rich,I have a few pictures but haven't had time to post anything recently. Kids are back home and we finally have a floor. We had a friend of a friend help us build it who has more experience than we do and that made it go quicker than we thought. My husband helped and we didn't have to pay as much so it worked out well. I don't know if this was a "normal" solution to the issues we had, but this is what he did:Poured four cement posts with a form he built, one in each corner of the crawl spaceMade a "box" spanning from post to post like a rim joist and hung 2x8's on these (the span was significantly smaller than original span because of the posts being "inside" the foundation walls)On the outside of the rim box, attached hangers and cut shorter joists notched out to rest on a new PT sill plate on the foundation wall.(So the notched joists were actually only a few feet in length) We also put new joists in the dining room and leveled them the same as the kitchen since they are kinda the same room.He put two layers of T&G 3/4 plywood sturdi-floor through the kitchen and dining room and broke the seam between the two rooms so it feels more unified. Like I said I don't know if this is the "right" way to do it, but it feels very sturdy and level. We are probably going to run the wall under the center as you suggested for added support, but he'll probably do it when he crawls under there to insulate and stuff in a few weeks. I'll attach pictures to better explain. Thanks for everyone's input. I can't wait to have a real kitchen and I don't think I've ever been as grateful for floors to walk on as I am now.
            We could probably join the circus as much practice as we've had running to the bathroom in the middle of the night balancing on beams.
            Next step is drywall, floor, and someday cabinets....I'll post more pictures if anyone's interested when we're finished.

          16. rfarnham | Apr 24, 2006 11:59pm | #39

            Good solution! Thanks for the update! Congrats on the floor, I know how you feel. I still have open joists in my retrofit. It's getting pretty old.-Rich

          17. Danno | Apr 25, 2006 02:47am | #40

            Looks like a good solution. Nice job! Thanks for posting what you did and the pictures.

          18. User avater
            zak | Mar 31, 2006 08:36am | #25

            well, if it was mortared rock all the way through, I would drill deep holes and epoxy in all thread rod. If it was good concrete, I might use a spinlock anchor. The epoxy is a special epoxy in caulk like tubes with a mixing nozzle.
            zak

          19. pope78 | Mar 31, 2006 06:19pm | #26

            This might sound stupid but what are you drilling the hole into? Does the bit drill into rock? Or just through the mortar?
            If we don't put in a sill plate, does that mean all our joists have to be pressure treated since they will touch the foundation?

          20. User avater
            zak | Apr 01, 2006 12:01am | #30

            A rotohammer will drill into rock and mortar, it's rentable.Anything that is in direct cotact with your concrete foundation should be pressure treated, it's likely to get wet somewhere along the line.zak

      2. Danno | Apr 02, 2006 06:21am | #37

        Sorry I couldn't get back to you--visiting my step-daughter and son-in-law and the grandkids. I don't think I would have been much help anyway. I would feel uncomfortable prescribing a fix without seeing in person what you have. I hope you got some good advice and got the new joists in okay. Anyway, you can see how well what you did works and can try to strengthen it if necessary later.

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