Well the time has come and I’m as ready as I’m gonna be…..
We’re starting the second floor addition to our house on Tuesday. I’m hoping this thread will live a long life full of my mistakes, triumphs, lessons learned etc with my pictures, progress reports, and updates. I hope that it’ll become a thread we can refer Owner/Builders to in the future for reference.
See, most of you know, I’m a framing sub. I spend about 50 hours a week working on new construction sites, then I spend about another 12 or so here on BT, I read FHB, JLC, and Tools of the Trade religiously. I’ve got my builder’s license in MA. I eat, breathe, chew, and spit homebuilding. My point…..despite my modest credentials…. I still don’t know nothin’ ’bout being a GC and I’m in for a wild ride. That much I’m sure of. So next time someone says, “how hard can it be?” maybe we can refer ’em to this thread and scare ’em straight!
The forklift and trailer are already parked on the front lawn. I’ve got a mini-ex rental being delivered on Tuesday to dig the footings for the porches. Two 30yd dumpsters are also coming that morning. Wedensday the Porta-John and the lumber show up.
Did I mention that I still haven’t been able to get a definate committment out of either my plumber or my HVAC guy yet? See how easy it is, already? BAWHAWHAWHAW! I do have my mason, my sider, my painter, my electrician (permits pulled), my flooring guy, and my board and plaster subs lined up though.
Spent today relocating my office to a spare bedroom that will remain relatively undisturbed until “phase 2”. Phase 2 consists of reworking all of the floorplan of the first floor except for the kitchen, which is brand new. Ok… a little bit of the kitchen. Reason I had to move out of the office is that this will be the location of the new stairs leading up to the new second floor. So we moved it all out and I put up plastic over the doorway and threw one of those stick on zippers on…. ready for demo.
I’m totally excited and scared to death at the same time. Funny how much easier it is to rip of YOUR roof. Truth is though…. I’m pretty much in heaven right now. All my tools have ‘come home’ and are right here with me. I’ll be taking my two favorite places in the world, my home and the jobsite, and merging them into one for awhile. I’m absolutely thrilled to finally be able to do what I love to do…. for myself and my wife. We’re truly blessed right now.
My biggest fear isn’t lining up subs or even actually building the job, it’s that I won’t know when to walk away. I’ve got a bad habit of getting consumed by work, and this particular situation isn’t going to really help that. I’m entirely capable of making myself completely crazy by ‘one more nail’ ing myself to death.
But hey! It’s bound to be a wild ride and I’m inviting ya all along if you’re interested. I’ll be needin’ your support, I’m sure. Thanks heavens I’ve got an unbelievable wife who puts up with my escapades. Make no mistake about it…. she’s the rock and I’m just along for the ride.
Godspeed.
Replies
GO DIESEL!
Always trust your cape.
http://www.hay98.com/
Way to go--congradulations--Just having the guts to rip off a perfectly good roof--and on you own house to boot--Seriously I wish you and your wife the best--when the projects got ya down and the sched. gone to crap--you know you have us to depend on. God bless you on your endeavor and Please keep the post flowing--Mike" I reject your reality and substitute my own"
Adam Savage---Mythbusters
Thanks Mike... we appreciate the support.
Diesle, you'll do fine. Ya got a plan, right? A good plan takes a lot of the load off. Don't ask me how I know that<G> "what's in a name?" d'oh!
I'll give U a good price to trim ...
right around next Fest time!
U still offering ... might be the best plan after all.
Jeff Buck Construction
Artistry In Carpentry
Pittsburgh Pa
Best of luck in this undertaking.
Are you taking a hiatus from your framing? Is the crew joining you on this?
Remodeling Contractor just outside the Glass City.
Quittin' Time
Thanks for the well-wishes gents.
Cal... yes the crew'll be joining me. Going to treat it like any other job as far as the business goes. The major difference will occur when it's time to pull out as a framing crew and get on another job... at that point I'll basically be running two jobs for awhile.
I'm aiming to have it close to board and plaster by the time we pull off. With the deck out back and all the trim on the front porch, we should buy some time. By that I mean I (we) can still be working on the house (making me available) while mechanicals get roughed in. If I want to stick around a bit more, we can do the siding ourselves too. The schedule on my next frame is pretty flexible as it's for an aquaintance. He just wants to get his frame weather tight before the snow comes and then he's going to 'tinker' in it all winter and finish in the spring. I cut him a deal to buy some flexibility knowing that I won't be giving it my full attention for the duration of his job.
I'm subbing out plumbing, electrical, HVAC, exterior painting, board and plaster and flooring for sure. I'll do the interior finish, framing and roofing for sure. May or may not sub out the interior painting and the siding. I have a friend who just went out on his own and does all sorts of flooring... he needs work, so he'll probably do my tile work, my carpeting, and possibly the wide plank flooring if I trust him enough. ;)
I'd love to just sub out the mechanicals and plastering, but I just can't afford to do it that way. By that I mean, for the most part, I gotta do what I do best to keep the bread flowing. I can relax a bit though, as all the money for our project is already banked, so my paychecks won't be determining our budget or our pace. That takes the edge off some. Some day I'd love to build one 'myself' and live in it. That'll be another day though.
Good luck on yer project. When I built the "spec house from hell" I was on here a lot a lot asking questions and posting about it. It was a great help..Since you brought it up, you know now that pics are required, don't ya ???Make sure ya get some "before" pics before ya start. Thery'll mean a great deal to you later, when you see how far you've come.
It's a good thing we have gravity, or else when birds died they'd just stay right up there. Hunters would be all confused.
Hey Brian,
Don't get too used to eating lunch at home!! lol
Good luck, a little fear does us all good once in a while!
EricIt's Never Too Late To Become
What You Might Have Been
[email protected]
Best of luck from here, too. I'd be more than willing to give a helluva deal on making the trip for a nice trim project!! Can't wait to see the pics as they come!!I get paid to do carpentry. That makes me a professional.
If I work on my own house does that make me a DIY?
Pics will be coming for sure. I re-read the Spec House from Hell thread this weekend for a warm-up.
We've already taken a ton of 'before' pics too. The landscape has already changed dramaticaly since we bought the place in January. We took down a ton of trees, cleared out about 10,000 sqft of brush, loam and seed, and increased the size of the driveway by about 150%.
The exterior of the house is pretty beat, so the work should make for quite the dramatic change.
Thanks for the advice Boss, I'm sure I'll have plenty of questions.
Here's a couple pictures of our house. #744 is what it looked like after the site work but before paving. The other picture is what the side and back yards looked like when we bought it.
The other files are small PDF files of our plans for the 1st floor remodel and the 2nd floor addition. Simple but very livable. The only changes to the plan that I believe we are going to make is to eliminate the office in the back of the family room. We're pretty sure we're just going to let the family room fly front to back and I'll temporarily use one of the spare bedrooms as an office until kids come along. That'll buy me some times to either build a shop out back with an office above, or just finish the basement and put an office down there.
The existing first floor is a typical ranch. Where the stairs are shown is currently a tiny bedroom that I used for my office. The family room area is currently divided right down the middle and is the two main bedrooms. The kitchen gains about 4' to make a bit more room for an 'eat in' country kitchen, the bath will remain the same, and the front living room w/ fp will just recieve aesthetic upgrades like paint, crown, a tile 'foyer', new front door, and wrapping the brick fire place in cultured stone. The chimney and it's extension will also be wrapped in cultures stone on the outside as well.
I designed most of it myself and my architect tweaked the layout, made it flow a bit better, put things into better proportions, and provided me with workable drawings. I also worked closely with the lumberyard's engineers to make this thing as efficient as possible as far as getting a roof back on as quickly as possible. I'll be cutting the existing ceiling joists right down the middle and dropping an LVL in for flush framing. This will allow the existing ceiling to remain relatively undisturbed and the new floor system will clear span over the existing front to back.
More about all that later. I'll try to take pictures and describe what we're doing as we go.
Thanks again for the encouragement folks.
You go man..I am really knowing it will all be sweet when ya get into it. Just all sweetness.
Yer gonna love all new places that exist on yer head, when it comes to scratchin yer head about "how to "sumptin"...the head is BIG place, be sure to try scratching new spots..the answers will come. Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
Is that going to be a farmers porch, or a veranda?
I'm thinking we'll just call it a porch... seems to be the chic thing to do these days, right?
Did ya have to start now, it's Football season :-)
If it were easy....a caveman could do it.
"...my architect tweaked the layout, made it flow a bit better, put things into better proportions, and provided me with workable drawings."
DP,
So what's it like for a knowledgeable builder like you to work with an architect - especially when it's your own house?
Was it someone with whom you already had a working relationship? In hindsight, was the investment in his/her services a good value, i.e., do you feel like you got your money's worth?
Thanks,-Jazzdogg-
"Don't ask yourself what the world needs. Ask yourself what makes you come alive, and go do that, because what the world needs is people who have come alive." Gil Bailie
So what's it like for a knowledgeable builder like you to work with an architect - especially when it's your own house?
That's flattering, but fairly inaccurate. I'm far from a 'knowledgeable builder' Jazzdog, I'm just a pretty decent B+ framer. I think of 'builders' as guys like Piffin, Smitty, Blodgett, etc. Guys that are comfortable doing it all from the foundation to the paint. I'm a sticks and sheathing kind of guy with a long term goal of filling their big shoes.
Was it someone with whom you already had a working relationship? In hindsight, was the investment in his/her services a good value, i.e., do you feel like you got your money's worth?
The architect I used was in fact a guy I had a second hand working relationship with. I've framed several of his drawings before and like what I saw. I think he has a very good eye for detail and doesn't project his ego into his designs. I find that many architects don't like to draw 'middle class' projects... especially in the addition/remodeling business. He was very willing to work with my idea and design and did a great job of tweaking it, without having to completely take it over. I've had and witnessed relationships with architects where it was painfully obvious that the homeowner's wants/needs took a backseat to the architect's ego or vision. I've seen homeowners build stuff that they weren't truly comfortable with because they were intimidated by their architect and didn't want to 'rock the boat'.
I don't roll over and die quite so easily, so a relationship like that would quickly turn adversarial on my project. That's the last thing I need right now.
Was it a good value? A wise investment? Absolutely. I'm a framer, not an architect. In fact that's the first thing I tell GC's when they start making serious complicated changes to a set of drawings and then ask for my input. While I can take pretty much any idea or exterior elevation sketch and build it properly without framing plans, I really don't want to. And I really can't say for certain yet whether or not it will 'look right'. I can just make it structurally sound and properly framed... the rest comes with either years and years of experience or schooling.... neither of which I have right now. No way I'll let a GC hang a poor design around my neck. You want design? Call and architect. When it's ready to build... I'm your man.
I guess what I'm getting at is this...... when my phone rings, "do you have a set of drawings for me?" is almost always the first question I ask. I think a proper and workable set of drawings is one of the most important aspects of any successful construction project... followed shortly thereafter by good subs. Now whether those drawings come from a 'design/build' firm or an architect doesn't matter to me. I've seen good drawings and horrible drawings from both. But there is a very good reason why the drawings are so often called, "the plans". You gotta have a plan to get anywhere.
Excellent response!
Thanks,-Jazzdogg-
"Don't ask yourself what the world needs. Ask yourself what makes you come alive, and go do that, because what the world needs is people who have come alive." Gil Bailie
Good luck man! Seriously though, you'll do fine! If you have a plan, and have confidence in yourself, and take time to think things through (which I know you do, from reading your posts) you should be fine!
Remember too that onece you get it boxed it, and dw up then you can take your jolly time
Post Pics!!!!!
When in doubt, get a bigger hammer!
Hey Pig,I've been meaning to stop by...just haven't made that turn onto Cresent in a while.Gotta fly out of Logan tomorrow. Mebbe I'll stop by on my way outta town.BTW, Advanced Mechanical isn't doing your HVAC, are they? He's my neighbor and a nice guy (we've got a standing poker game @ his house the 1st sat of the month)Maybe I'll swing by tomorrow.
Sure, come introduce yourself any time. Yes, Joe from AMS is doing both my HVAC and my plumbing. I'm impressed thus far with his whole shootin' match. Even the bill! Just kidding. ;)
Stop by any time, but if not today, then have a safe trip and hit us on the way home.
Brian
Pig- if you ever play him in cards...make sure you count your chips before you hit the head...LOL!!!
I did the same thing two years ago on my own place. The big mistake I made was that I did 80% of the work myself. I skipped two years of any vacation time and worked my regular job along side doing the addition The key to being a good GC (there are many), is getting good subs, and staying on top of the schedual.
From reading your posts, you seem like a very capable individual who possesses both the skills for such a job and the ability to keep things moving. You're going to be tired, but there is no better satisfaction in the end. Remember to keep asking questions here and take pictures as you go. Good luck.
I'd wish you luck, but you have the skill and determination to make it happen, so you should be fine.
keep us posted.
As of now, this thread is already marked as high interest.
=0)
You'll have my thoughts and prayers.
Drop me an email, willya ?
I lost that pic work with the hard drive that kakked. I'd like to get started again. Send me the biggest you have.
Are we there yet ?
I think I can speak for most here, good luck. And if it all falls apart or you screw up you can post it here.
We will tell you what you did wrong and what you should have done and tell you how we know a guy that did the same thing. We also will, at your whim, give you loads of advice on how we would do it if we were you. So in other words. You are among friends in your endevors.
I love a new challenge though. When you are scared to death an still pull it off are the best jobs in the world. Good luck my friend. DanT
Clearly that 2x needs some more nails. Shoot it. Let us know how you feel.
Oh amd good luck.
Well a job that local will keep the miles off the new truck, huh? I'll keep my fingers crossed that you have weather that cooperates. Best of luck.
You'll do good, bro. Don't even doubt it for an instant.
But I remember that feeling, 'long about the third hour after the house-moving sub had arrived at my place, when I stood there in what used to be my vegetable garden...
...surrounded by churned up mud and piles of timbers for the cribbing and steel beams, and the remains of the deck we'd just cut off with a chainsaw...
...and looked at the crowd of neighbors gathered in the road to see the show...
and said to all and any, "IS IT TOO LATE TO CHANGE MY MIND???"
Dinosaur
A day may come when the courage of men fails,when we forsake our friends and break all bonds of fellowship...
But it is not this day.
I know what you mean by getting totally consumed. A piece of advice, quit before fatigue sets on. Its always the end of the day when we screw up and cause injury. Save some time at the end of the day to ponder your progress and plan your next move.
Good luck
Thank you for the invite, I believe I will take you up on the offer to share your eventual success vicariously from my Northern perch. (I use success advisedly & purposely) Planning & details are where it lives on most of the projects I do, & you seem to have nailed a lot of them right at the get-go.
I like, (& often quote) something I read once, (seems appropriate here), "If you fail to plan, you plan to fail". I believe you will succeed due to the obvious time you have taken to plan; your success will be all the sweeter.
I've been sometimes accused of taking 15 min. to plan a 5 min. job. All I can often say in my defence is that the job took 5 min. because of the planning not in spite of it.
Something that also works for me is to have a contingency plan for when or if something goes wrong; sometimes just imagining what I'll do if rain threatens or I run short of something can mentally prepare me for it if it does happen. I'm able to respond to problems quicker when I've already thought about them in advance, I believe.
I further truly believe that MR. MURPHY was a frigg'n optimist at times!
LOL May the forces be with you!
I am sure you will find this to be a great experience. Your crew will work especially hard to give you and your wife a great addition. The subs will do the same because they know that you are a working stiff just like them and will really appreciate what they are doing. I know I feel that way when we work on the house of one of our subs.
Just make sure that you have plenty of cold beer on Fridays and an occasional bbq for all involved. A great way to top off the experience and thank them.
Looking forward to learning.
Thanks for putting it out there.
Get your tickets early for the George Paul Memorial SuperBull Event in Del Rio, Texas. This PBR sanctioned Bullriding event is the best party in Texas. Stock furnished by Bad Company Rodeo. And don't forget to visit the Corona Club in Cuidad Acuna, Mex.
Well, we officially started this morning. Not a bad day at all. I left the house at 5:45 this morning to shoot down to Lowe's to pick up the small lumber list that I had phoned in at noon yesterday. Would you believe me if I told you that they hadn't pulled it yet? We pull it as fast as we can and head back to the house because I've got deliveries and my guys showing up.
When the fellas showed up, I got them set up building temporary bearing walls down both sides of the existing bearing wall.
I then set out to cut a hole in the gable end near the driveway so we could pull all the old fiberglass insulation out without dragging it through the house. I got a cord out, and the dumpsters showed up. I ran in and got them a check, showed them where to put 'em shot the breeze for a minute and thanked them on the way out.
Then I went and got the extension ladder out. About this time the Bobcat Mini-Ex showed up. I went in and got the rental center a check, went over the basics of the machine with the owner, and then got back to it.
I had just got the sawzall out when the phone rang. It's the HVAC contractor who is right down the street and would like to walk the job and go over a few things. SWEET... I was hoping he'd call, never mind actually drop by.
I plug in the sawzall, climb the extension ladder and start to cut the hole when he pulls in the driveway. We then spend about 1/2 hour walking the job, looking over the plans and discussing the Hydro-air system we'd like. Halfway through our conversation, the local lumberyard shows up with 84, eighty pound bags of concrete for my footings and sonotubes. I unload them with my forklift, promise that I'll return the pallets (still had to leave a deposit) and then go get him his check.
Back to discussing the project with the HVAC dude. We wrap up, and I'm pleasantly impressed with him. And his schedule jives with mine... bonus. Let's just hope the numbers line up, and then it'll be a done deal.
I start to climb back up the ladder and the phone rings. It's one of the plumbers I've solicited over the weekend. He'd like me to fax him a copy of the plans and would like to meet on Thursday. Cool. I run into the house and whip up a quick fax cover sheet and fax off the plans.
I head back outside and Alex meets me. He and Elton apparently finshed the temp walls, finished cutting the hole I started about 4 hours ago, and had 1/2 the insulation in the dumpster.
Thank God for good help, huh? Good thing somebody's working!
I hop in the mini-ex and am happy to say that for the next hour I couldn't hear my cell phone over the rumble of the machine. I was heaven. I actually got some work done for the first time all day. I realized I was making good time on the footings, so I called for an inspection. Got prompt attention from the BI (his office is 5 min up the road) and he signed us off.
How the heck do you GC guys do it? If the phone ain't ringing, I'm accepting a delivery, if I'm not accepting a delivery, someone's looking for a check, if nobody's looking for a check.... then I must have forgot to order something so I better grab the phone!
Anyway, we got the walls up today, the insulation out of the attic, five 36" wide by 48" deep holes dug, got the holes inspected, got five 30"x30"x12" footings formed and poured by hand, ate two pizzas, recieved a whole lot of deliveries, and wrote a disgusting amount of checks out.
Not a bad first day I guess.
Tomorrow we strip and backfill the footers, pour the tubes, spread 7 yards of stone around the deck area, recieve the main lumber drop, and tear the roof off. Stay tuned. Pictures to follow.
;) I'm a happy guy tonight.
You need five of them going at the same time. :)
Always trust your cape.
http://www.hay98.com/
I'd rather work at Walmart than run 5 like this dude. My head just ain't big enough to keep track of all this information. I just want to pound nails man!
You ever play with a mini-ex bro? What a blast. I wanted to dig up the whole yard.
"You ever play with a mini-ex bro?" Nope. But I love that kind of stuff. Spend the whole day lost in my own little world.
Always trust your cape.
http://www.hay98.com/
Good luck with the project. Just remember not to use the phrase.. "Looks good, can't see it from my house!"
Anyhow, with all that hard work makes it EZ to get a full nights sleep in.
How do we do it?Well, fortunately I don't have to do all of it. I have an equal partner who runs all the projects but every once in a while I will handle a small project and I marvel at how little I seem to get accomplished in a day.I really can't imagine how some of the one man shows do it, those who manage the production, keep the books, do sales & estimating, etc. I don't think the general public understands how much coordination goes into what we create.
Jon Blakemore RappahannockINC.com Fredericksburg, VA
It sounds like you're having fun Diesel. Congrats.
Keep the pics coming.
blue
We're having a great time Blue. The main lumber drop showed up today at 6:45 this morning followed shortly thereafter by 7 yards of stone to spread under the new porch.
When the guys showed up, they jumped right in and started tearing off the old roof while I backfilled the footings and spread the stone. I was trying real hard to finish the machine work today so that I can return the rental tomorrow. $250/day starts to pile up. I planned on two days and it's being returned on time. At least something is on schedule and in budget!
The guys tore off about 80% of the roof and then stopped. We left a few rafters and one gable up, because the power is still attached to the gable. The electrician will be by tomorrow to pull it and put it on a temporary pole so we can finish up the demo. When the guys finished cleaning up the debris they came down and helped me mix and pour the last 30 bags or so of concrete to fill up the tubes. That's where we called it a day. At least the guys did anyway. I can't help but stay out there until dark taking care of odds and ends.
So far so good, except that it's looking like I'm going to go over my HVAC budget by a mere $9500! We just can't help but think that we'll regret not installing A/C... hence the blown budget. We'll see on that one. The jury is still out.
Tomorrow I'm thinking I'll actually get to strap the belt on and do some framing! Yahoo! It's going to be slow going at first as we've got to do alot of picky crappy work to the existing frame before we can really get cranking. We're going to cut the exisitng joists back and drop in a 32' quad LVL which will make life easier when we hit phase two... removing the first floor bearing wall. Once we get that type of crap done, it should be another day at the office.
Enjoy! (Yeah I'm sleeping in there tonight!)
Man, what a cool looking project. I love stuff like that. Especially when it's mine. No money made but no owner issues to deal with is a luxury.
I don't think you will regret the air. Life saver after a hot summer day. At least for those of us with an extra layer of insulation on our body. Thanks for the pictures. DanT
Yeah Dan, the AC might knock the cultured stone chimney wrap out of the picture but it could be a good trade-off.
Diesel - Looks good. Nice start. I'll wish you luck, but you are one of them smart guys that makes your own.
On another note, you have a cute puppy. Nice trees too. Checked out the trees to see where the hammock is going to go. Looks peaceful, quiet and idyllic.
Don
A hammock sounds great right about now, I just walked in the door and I'm beat. Shower, food, Patriots home opener..... G'night! The puppy is Mulligan and he's a sweatheart.... he pretty much gets treated like a human around here and he's pretty much convinced that he is.
Thanks for the encouragement.
I strung a hammock between two walls. I was working night shift and would get off at 6 in the morning go to the lumber yard hand pick materials then drive to site work till I couldn't think or stand crawl in the hammock sleep for a couple of hours go back to work then go back to work.
Took me 14 months to finish way over budget and twice the house I started to build. Lumber prices sky rocketed on me then interest rates sky rocketed on my construction loan.First year of my second marriage (boy was that risky).First time I ever framed anything all my friends thought I was crazy.
Build a tent to cover entire site and ice storm came next day and had to bail 10" of ice out from between each joist.Tornado came close and tore the gables off. Rained for 30 days straight in June thats when I was sure I had built on top of an indian burial ground. Started calling the place BLACK CLOUD. Brother in law helped for 2 days went home and died in his bed the next day of some bizarre infection.Son at 5 years old went upstairs while I was framing the steps and fell thru the only place the sheetrock guys hadn't finished broke his wrist and thought he broke his hip docs told us his leg may not grow they were wrong.Footings dug three times to be washed out that night. Stone crew quits boss first day on job so he and I lay all the stone. First day of ground breaking and backhoe breaks and it starts to snow, halloween day.Can't seem to sell my first house took 6 months after I moved in.
Still living here and still proud as ever of design and the fact that I built the place my self.
ANDYSZ2
PS Best of luck and don't hesitate to ask friends to help they are usually the best therapy when you are feeling low and they never let you forget that time they helped you.I MAY DISAGREE WITH WHAT YOUR SAYING BUT I WILL DEFEND TO THE DEATH YOUR RIGHT TO SAY IT.
Remodeler/Punchout
You and Boss Hog need to have a beer and compare notes. Sounds like you have the same luck! DanT
JEEZUS H!
Black Cloud is the best name for that place.
Always trust your cape.
http://www.hay98.com/
Geez dude. Looks like I might be doing alright, after all. Seems as though you went and used up enough bad luck for the both of us. I'm glad it all worked for you in the long run though. You certainly earned your stripes and your right to be proud of your home.
Brian, these pictures and your description of what is planned give new meaning to that "location, location, location" theme. Remodeling Contractor just outside the Glass City.
Quittin' Time
Thanks Calvin... we're very happy here. The taxes blow because there's very few businesses to help out, but it sure is beautiful. It's all sheep farms, apple orchards, and golf courses. Very small town.
I admire your ambition. I bought a ranch about the same size 6 years ago. I also intended to remodel. Needless to say, I moved in and lost motivation. Sold it 2 years later, and never did a thing to it.
PS. Go for the AC.
"PS Go for the AC"
Good advice, I signed the contract this morning and gave him my deposit. We may put off buying the condensors until the spring, but at least it's in the works.
Buy another ranch.... you can do an awful lot with them and there's a ton of 'em out there. Many can be had relatively cheap as I'm sure you know.
You folks in the East must sure pay a Boat-load for AC. $9500 ? Around here you can get a 13 seer all day long, 4 ton for $4k or less.
To bad the Pats Bronco game is here in Denver in Oct, other wise I could send the crew your way for an AC.
I shoulda gave a little more detail. I'm only paying $2800 for 4 tons of 10 seer. But, right now we have hot water baseboards for heat, so in order to get AC, we need ducts, right? So that led me to the decision that I should just put in a Budereus boiler switch to Hydro in both the new and the old. Might as well replace the h/w heater as well with boiler fed Superstor while we're at it.
So basically I went from putting in hot water baseboards in the new second floor, to installing Hydro w/ air conditioning in the whole shooting match and replacing the h/w heater as well.
I know what your doing to your house is a good thing! Around here, in the city of Denver, what your doing is Big Biz! Pop-Top is what they call it here. Take an old , small house ($300K) in a good hood. Do what your doing, Pop the top. Add $200-$300K, Next thing you know you got a house worth Million or better!
Best to you & be Safe!
Best to you & be Safe!
Thanks for the well wishes man. Especially the 'be safe' part. It's amazing the things that go through my head while working on my own house. Several times the thought of injury has passed through my mind while working and what a mess it would be to be out of commission with my own roof torn off and my sweet wife having to sleep under tarp for longer than we've planned.
Now, more than ever, we've got to work safe.
Hey Diesel,
Just wanted to wish you lots of luck and success on your project. I didn't get to chat with you at the Fest but I saw you from across the yard. I was the one who stole the "youngest poster" from you, much to my dismay!
We are just wrapping up our whole house remodel/addition and just wanted to let you know how much you are going to just love your house when you're done. No matter how many things go wrong or don't turn out exactly the way you'd hoped, you are going to love it just as much! We know our house isn't perfect and doesn't have the best of everything but I'm still so proud of it just the same!
I know it probably seems like a long road ahead of you but, at least for us, the time has totally flown by. I can't believe we'll be moving in, in only a couple weeks!
Good luck again and I'll certainly be following your thread as you go!
-Kacy
Well congratulations to you and your husband Kacy! Seeing the 'light at the end of the tunnel' must feel pretty sweet right about now, huh? Good on ya for seeing it through and keeping such a great attitude during the process.
I've sort of followed your thread with one eye for a few weeks now. I had somehow missed it before Riverfest and that's why I couldn't really 'place' you at the fest. After I got home and read a bit of the thread, it clicked. Light dawns on Marblehead.
Thanks for the encouragement, and congratulations once again.
Brian
That is one damn nice looking dog!
I dont know about any of that other stuff going on though, looks to much like work for my taste.
Doug
Thanks Doug, he's a great dog. I've had him for about 4 1/2 years now and he's been nothing but a joy. I got him before I even met my wife, but now those two are inseperable. He follows her around everywhere and she completely spoils him.... it's kinda nice how it worked out.
Here he is about 3 years ago 'singing' to me. Excuse the mess.... that's back in bachelor pad days.
View Image
Stop when you get tired.
Eat when you get hungry.
Drink when you get thirsty.
Learn what you customers go through.
Have a good time and good luck.
Great advice!
You must be busy, making progress? Hope you making head way!
You called it.... too busy to do much of anything else... but we're better for it now, that's for sure.
I'll take you and anyone else who's interested through the story....
Last Friday we were ready to go and start installing the new TJI's clear spanning the 26' width of the house. Upon realizing exactly how bad the existing top plates were out of level, we realized we'd have to shift gears a bit. We ended up shimming both ends of every joist across the whole run.
I was very tempted to just say 'fugg it' but I knew that the rest of the job would be a bigger PIA than shimming the joists would be if we choose to keep motoring along. Besides, I knew I'd kick myself later... things are either done right or done wrong in framing... there's not much middle ground.
So we shimmed each joist and finished laying the Advantech subfloor down at 7:30pm on Friday night. It was a good week. We tarped it off and I told the guys to have a nice weekend. The weather reports I had seen up until then were good to go, so I figured we all needed the weekend to recoup from what was a very hard week.
Watching the weather report late in the weekend kinda made my stomach do flips. They were saying that we'd be seeing the remnants of Hurricane Ophelia by late Wednesday night/early Thursday. Sweet. Nothing like getting caught with your pants down.
So I laid out a plan. I was going to have a roof over my head again by Wednesday night come he11 or highwater and it looked like we could have both by mid-week.
I'll end this post here and make three additional posts with pictures of our progression leading up to today (and the thunderstorms currrently rumbling and pouring outside right now)
So on Monday we started framing the gables. We got them both framed, trimmed, and stood by days end. I also managed to get the back wall layed out and the front pony wall knocked together but not sheathed. While I was trimming, the guys cut the remaining door and window parts as well as taking down some of the 1st floor temporary bearing walls and cutting them up into studs for the front knee wall.
The front gable trim remains 'held back' and unfinshed as it will tie into the trim for the roof of the front porch yet to be framed. The front upper roof portion you see is a 12 in 12, while the porch roof will be a continuation of that roof but it will change pitch to a 7 in 12 covering the porch.
In later pictures you will see that 4' tall front walls and think how awkward it currently looks. The wall will eventually be buried in the porch roof and will not be part of the visible front elevation.
Tuesday was another good day. We sheathed, papered and stood the front 4' wall. Then framed, sheathed, papered, and stood the full height back wall. Then tied in top plates and plywood corners. We then framed a couple interior walls for ceiling joists. Then plumbed, lined and braced all the walls. Next we cut and rolled up the 24' ceiling joists and then spread roof sheathing around on them to walk on while framing the roof.
After getting the rest of the roof sheathing up to the second floor, the guys went down and cut the 64 common rafters while I finished up some odds and ends and then set up wall brackets and staging across the front and back of the house.
I was pleased with our output for sure. I love my guys.
Oh and here's a picture of Mulligan taken from our new second floor. He's loving all the action around the house these days.
Looking good. Good hustle on drying it in. Hope the heavy stuff misses you in the morning. I've got tommorrow off that sports center idea sounds like a winner. Got to remember to pay that cable bill.
Always trust your cape./
Brian,
I just found this thread. I'm as far as post # 62716.67 and I have to say You Rock Nice work
That is an interesting way to put the ceiling joists. I'd have never thought of that, but that is a great way :-) I'm going to cop that technique. I've got a tip for you that will blow your socks off. I'll take pics on Mon and show you. You will go ape when you see this :-)
Until then. . . . . . . . . . . . ..
You're gonna make me wait until MONDAY!!! Not fair dude, now I gotta wait it out. Shoot, what if I need that truck this weekend or something?
The ceiling joists... yeah I guess it's strange, but with the design the way it is, we would have had to frame the roof from the deck which would have required some sort of cobbled together staging like we do for cathedrals. I figured it couldn't hurt to throw up that long wall, even though it's not a bearing wall, and use it to hold up the ceiling joists until they could be tied into the rafters. Sure made it easier to snap that roof together.
It's been pretty fun working on my own house even if it is a pretty simple design. The race against the weather certainly made it a little bit challenging though. Thanks for the encouragement bro and I'll be waiting for that new trick of yours.
I don't know jack-diddly about HVAC, but I'm learning quite a bit. Here's some pics of the system they're installing in my house right now. It's a Buderus boiler running the hydro air with a boiler fed 65 gallon Superstor, Air Bear filters, Logomatic, the works....
Pretty dang cool looking, if you ask me. I was really impressed with these guys. They were courteous, professional, and showed up with a crew that really seemed to know what they were doing. They were expensive, for sure, but I feel confident that I'm getting my money's worth and that's the real bottom line.
Check out this hunk of space shuttle in my basement....
Hows it going?
jt8
"If you have only one smile in you, give it to the people you love. Don't be surly at home, then go out in the street and start grinning 'Good morning' at total strangers." -- Maya Angelou
Hey Pig!I was really impressed with these guys. They were courteous, professional, and showed up with a crew that really seemed to know what they were doing. They were expensive, for sure, but I feel confident that I'm getting my money's worth and that's the real bottom line.Youse talkin' about AMS guys??? I assume this means Joe wasn't on your job!!! LOL!!!BTW, I've got one of them (Billy) @ our house today doing the hookup for the radiant floor. Yes, that Buderus is a sweet lookin' boiler and everytime Joe comes over, he mentions that a Buderus should be going into our basement.Hey, if you house ain't locked down tight, I just might "borrow" your Buderus!!!Yes, AMS ain't cheap, but I usually win it back from Joe on poker night (which is this Sat night)
Hey, how's the house goin'?
Haven't seen any pics recently.
The HO keeping you to busy to post?
Cuz the HO is an idiot. ;)
Just been really busy getting it ready for mechanicals and the sider. I'm actually pulling out this weekend to frame an 'emergency' addition next week so we've really been plugging away this week.
I'll resize and post some pics of where we're at.
Things oughta slow down a bit now. Nothing going on next week, plumber, HVAC, and sider the following week, and then electrician and mason start the week after. I know, mason before the sider? Sometimes you gotta go with the flow and shift gears, right? ;)
All right... here's where we're at. All framing is completed upstair except for the jacuzzi platform. Just got the dimensions for that today when we picked it out. Still need to run a 1x8 band across the cantilever and put up the 1x8 corner boards and window trim, then I'll hand it over to the sider. We also still have to strip the back deck (24'X12') and railing and give it a facelift with new Weatherbest decking and railings as well as relocate the stairs on it.
Gettin' there. To be entirely honest, I'm looking forward to the addition I'm framing next week. This thing is starting to own me. I tend to feel like since I'm here... I might as well be working. That's made for some pretty long days and weekends too. Need to get some space for awhile. It'll also be good to bring in a little cash while I'm at it!
Lookin' good! i like those porch columns. Did you make them?
I know what you mean about workin' at home. The last week or so I've been trying to catch up on some of my "homework". Unfortunately, a fair amout involves painitng, not one of my favorites.
Next week I'm going back to working for other customers- shorter days and better pay.
Wow, it's really looking great! What a difference from before! I love the porch and the columns!
-Kacy
Thanks Kacy... we're pretty excited about it. I got the frame up fairly quickly but things will slow down now. No mechanicals until next week, so this week is pretty dead. Gotta keep it moving though cuz time has a way of slipping away before you know it, right?
I lost track of your thread... I'll have to check out where you're at. Thanks for the kind words.
Brian,
I was talking to a sharp azz plumber today. He mentioned something about Buderus and I recognized the name.
He went all tech on me and gave me a quick afternon lesson on boiler function and efficiency.
Nice rig. He had nothing but good things to say about it.
And nice job on your home. You know what you're doing for sure.
Quite suprising for a guy who graduated high school when you did! ;~)
Eric
It's Never Too Late To Become
What You Might Have Been
[email protected]
Out of curiosity, lets say you were putting that second floor on for a customer (other than yourself). What kinda price range would the customer be looking at?
And how far would you take them? Just framed... framed, sheathed, sided, shingled? I realize you probably will go further for more $$, but if you have a typical level of 'finish', what would that be and WAG on how much it would be.
jt8
"Twenty years from now you will be more disappointed by the things that you didn't do than by the ones you did do. So throw off the bowlines. Sail away from the safe harbor. Catch the trade winds in your sails. Explore. Dream. Discover." -- Mark Twain
Hi John,
I'd take it right to the point where it is right now. (I just tried to post a pic, but it won't let me right now... see my most recent pic if you missed it)
Framed, sheathed, wrapped. Doors, windows, roofing, and exterior trim installed. I rarely do siding. I'd probably be around 15K for that job, maybe a little more. That's labor only.
The guys rolled up at 7:15 on Wedensday morning. I jumped in the machine and boomed the rafters up to the guys who then spread them out. While that was going on, I cut and layed out the ridge, then boomed that up.
By 9am we had it all knocked together and man was it starting to get hot out. 90 degrees with a dew point of 70. Sweaty.
I helped the guys with the first course of sheathing across the front and then as they went up, I came up behind them with the Grace Tri-Flex 30 underlayment. That stuff is great. It comes in a whopping 10 square roll (300') that only weighs 30 lbs. And you just can't tear the stuff.
Anyway, I went behind the guys and rolled out the t-flex tacked it off with a hammer tacker. Then I went back across it with a roofing nailer and silver dollars.... 8" OC at top and bottom of courses, and 16" OC across the middle of the field. Specs say 24" OC across the middle, but of course I didn't read those until I was finished.
Anyway, by 3:30 yesterday afternoon we had the roof framed, sheathed, and papered in. In the back of the house, we ran 6' of Ice and Water along the eaves, and then picked up with the Tri-flex30. In the front, I started out with the Tri-flex because what is currently the edge of the roof, will soon be the middle of the roof once we tie the porch into it. Get it? I'll probably put ice and water shield at this intersection later, as well.
So that's the long, short story of where I've been. It was pouring about an hour ago, and we just had a couple of very minor drips up stairs that I put pails under. Just two of them in fact. They seem to be where we left cleats nailed to the roof edge on the low slope side. That makes sense.
All in all. I ain't complaining. Now maybe I can relax a bit.
Lets see, leave home for work at 7:00 AM and you're on the worksite by 7:00 AM. Neat trick. :)
And that fork is awesome. Just park it there with the stack of underlayment (or whatever) above the floor its going on. Take a sheet off as you need it and never have to worry about overloading a section of the floor by setting the load down... or having a stack of supplies in your way.
Sheeze, you guys are hauling a$$! Looks great. Also looks like you still got some rain over there. Finishing the interior walls during the wet stuff?
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Is that DW in 893? We need a closer shot. =>
jt8
"Knowing trees, I understand the meaning of patience. Knowing grass, I can appreciate persistence."-- Hal Borland
Edited 9/15/2005 1:20 pm ET by JohnT8
Is that DW in 893? We need a closer shot.
Easy tiger.
Just kidding. Sure, here we are on our honeymoon. See if you can tell which one is me.
We're actually not working today. We're getting some pretty crazy downpours, as predicted, and I wasn't sure exactly how 'water tight' we would actually be. We've got a few drips coming in during the really heavy stuff, but at least they are predictable and can be contained with a well placed bucket. All in all, I'm definately not complaining.
To be entirely honest John, we're just too friggin' whipped. The last three days we went balls out in some nasty heat and humidity to get where we are right now. I know a day of rest right now is much needed for me, and my two guys really appreciate it as well. We reached the first goal... time to catch our breath, you know? Besides, isn't working on your own home supposed to be fun? I'm ready for the fun part!
But today..... Sportscenter, a nap or two, and maybe a movie are in the cards.
I know a day of rest right now is much needed for me, and my two guys really appreciate it as well.
tut tut tut, you're never going to have a "hellish remodel" thread at this rate... you know when to sub out, you know when to take a break, and are making blindly fast progress.
Sheeze, at this rate the marriage ain't gonna be strained, the budget overextended, or friendships lost. Where the heck is the fun parts (for us as the observers)??
jt8
"Striving for excellence motivates you; striving for perfection is demoralizing." --Harriet Braiker
Don't give up hope just yet. We're supposed to have hurricane Ophelia pass by us between 5 am and noon on Saturday. I've got a paper roof, power on a temp pole, and no windows installed. Could get way more interesting than I ever hoped it would.
That would be dramatic. Hopefully on the news we won't see you, dw, and Mulligan on the roof as a chopper lowers a cable to you.
(unless of course he's delivering shingles) ;)jt8
"Striving for excellence motivates you; striving for perfection is demoralizing." --Harriet Braiker
Okay Diesel,
Pardon my ignorance. But why didn't you use the machine to pick up the gable walls? In the pics it looked like the machine was just hanging out with plywood on it while they were using jacks. Am I watching too many of Blue's carry the walls all over the place pics?
I'm also not sure if that's really a jobsite or a mock up. It's too freakin clean. I have more crap on the floor after breakfast than you do after three good days. I know - the hurricane winds cleaned everything off for ya.
With all the bitchin' going on here (including mine) about good help and lack thereof it's nice to see a crew that can work together to turn out the results. I'm impressed. That heat sucked. If I told anyone how little I accomplished in the last two days, they would laugh and you went crazy.
What do you figure - about two more weeks and you'll be pulling the bedroom furniture up there?
Don K
I'm just not comfortable enough with it yet, Don. Using the machine for raising gables, I mean.
It's whole different ball game, raising a wall from the first deck compared to the second deck. With a wall on the first deck, you can see everything you need and accurately judge the angle of the boom and the next required motion. On the second floor, you can't see anything until the gable is halfway up, the angles change, the force on the machine changes, and the way you manuever the boom changes. There's also the little matter of securing the slings to the gable itself...not to be take lightly either.
Bottom line.....until I get more proficient, the wall jacks win for both speed and safety on gables that size. (small and medium, I mean)
Some of the bigger gables on the homes I've been framing lately will force me to get better with the machine for raising walls. But I'll tell you this.... you can't imagine what goes through your head sitting in the machine pulling a gigantic wall towards you. Intimidating doesn't even begin to describe it. You get the angle wrong, and you'll pull the whole thing right off the deck, bottom plate first. You get the angle wrong and you get stuck with the wall halfway up and no room left to raise the boom. You get a good gust of wind and there's nothing stopping it from coming right down on top of you either. I've had a 24' garage gable (a small one in my book) pop the steel bands holding it to the deck and start swinging in the breeze..... not for the faint of heart.
And definatly not something I'll be rushing in to. So while an old master like Blue makes it all look pretty easy.... I'm thinking I've got a lot to learn still!
It's funny that you think the site is clean. I was just saying to the guys that I can't believe that my own house is one of the most trashed sites we've worked on! We did spend a 1/2 hours or so yesterday getting stuff in the dumpster though. Now that we've got some cover I'm hoping this returns to business as usual.
Brian,
Our welder is making an attachment that we can hook to the forks that will make it a breeze to raise gable walls. As soon as he gets it done, I'll post pics. It is similar in design to a spreader bar that allows you to set a few trusses at a time. It'll look like a coat hanger, but beefy.
That's it??!!! That is all you got done and you couldn't find time to post. Geezzz!!
Man Brian that is one impressive amount of work in my mind for 3 days. Talk about kicking a$$. If I wasn't impressed before ( I was ) I sure am now.
The picture. What lie did you tell that beautiful girl to get her to marry you? :-) DanT
What lie did you tell that beautiful girl to get her to marry you?
All of them Dan.... I had to tell all of them.
Thanks for the encouragement Dan. Too bad you weren't closer to come out and play for a couple days. Could use a funny prick like you around. :)
looks like you're banging along quite nicely.
Just remember, when the wall boards up it slow's down quite a bit ;)
Shoot Neil, it's going to slow down long before that.... like tomorrow! I'm freakin' exhausted dude... and it's only the first week. I thought this was gonna be fun. ;)
Sooooo - How'd you make out in the rain? Everything still standing and dry?
We did great Don. Had one steady drip on the low pitch side (back) where I left a 2x4 nailed to the roof, threw a bucket under it and we were in fine shape. Rain ended about midnight last night. Actually yesterday was a decent day too, but we got more rain in the evening. I've been working solo inside this weekend. Finished up the demo in the room that will become the stairway. I'm framing the landing and stairs right now.
Monday I'm hoping to finish up a few loose ends on the second floor, run the soffit and fascia in the back, and then throw in some windows in the back and gable ends.
That's where we'll stop with the second floor framing for now. Tuesday we'll head outside and start framing the front porch as we need it's roof framed before we can shingle the whole thing. Roofing is the ultimate goal right now. After that we'll head back inside and finish up the second floor framing so mechanicals can get started. And then start with the exterior decking, siding and trim. Just sorta thinking out loud here.
The HVAC guys started last week assembling the new boiler and one of the airhandlers in the basement. You should see this thing... looks like a chunck of the space shuttle landed in my basement. Maybe I'll take a picture later.
Kewl - sorry, I lost this thread. Have fun.Birth, school, work, death.....................
The rain got me, but in a different way.
Everything was dry here for weeks but last night it rained like crazy for a little while, maybe 20 minutes or less.
Today, one of the workers shows up and I wanted to give him a day's work. I tell him go ahead and paint the new wall. I look at it - seems dry, 18" flying gable, I figure good to go it was pretty much under cover for the rain. (Wall is 5" beveled cedar, backprimed with oil or Zinser primer over polyis. foam.) He works for a few hours, I jump on it with him. About 4pm, suns been around the west side a while, wall gets hot and he says "Where are the bubbles coming from?"
I thought he was seeing things - he's missing an eye, so I start to tell him that, but as my mouth opens I see dozens/hundreds of bubbles lifting up the primer on different parts of the wall. Apparently, enough water got to the new wood to soak into it, 'til the sun warmed it up and it wanted to get out. Needless to say, we stopped for the day (wall was 90% done).
Now it looks like I've got to sand down at least where it lifted, and probably everything, then do that wall finish coat with latex (solid color stain), so any water left in it can get out. That sucks, to put it mildly. But, lesson learned.
Hope the next week goes as well for you as the last one did.
Don
I don't mean to hijack Brians threas or start an argument..................but I was taught by the "old man" that what you are describing is exactly the reason to NOT backprime.
Gives the moisture (read moisture; not water) a place to escape.
I dunno.It's Never Too Late To Become
What You Might Have Been
[email protected]
I'm freakin' exhausted dude... and it's only the first week. I thought this was gonna be fun. ;)that's cuse you're letting the HO drive you too hard
bobl Volo, non valeo
Baloney detecter
I would respectfully ask the moderator to please password protect this thread...if my wife read this her expectations would go through the roof. All kidding aside...keep up the good work and thanks for sharing.
Byron
Don, I was thinking the same thing, but I was gonna be polite enough not to ask!
I was curios too about the plywood being staged inside the house.
Diesel, those gables are both small gables for that machine. Even if you build the wall and gable in one piece, it is still a small load for the machine.
Of course, it is imperative that the machine have a decent grade. The machine won't care if its driving up, or down a slope, but it can't be on too steep of a side slope.
The way we would do those gable would be to do them separate from the wall and the roof. We'd stand the wall up "nakid", then we'd set the finished gable down on top of it. It's much faster because we eliminate all the time spent rigging and bracing the two components.
And yes Don, we'd be building all of those on the tables and driving all of them around the site with the machine. In fact, I'd have built all the walls before I tore off the existing roof. I'd leave one end unfinished and measure and cut it to exact length, after I built the deck.
The gable wall that contains the big window, may or maynot present a problem/challenge. We've separatly built many windows that spanned the two components.
Diesel, I don't do much of the running of the machine. I let Frank do it, but one thing I can say. I used to be aprehensive about "tilting" the walls into place. I followed our same system that we used for tiliting them: I'd strap the bottom, etc. Eventually I figured out that it's much easier and faster, and safer to just lift the entire wall up into the air, then maneuver it to where it should be, then drop it. It's okay if it dangles "in the wind". Believe me, it won't dangle very far. In most instances, the guys can just walk up and steady it by hand. It's a lot safer than it seems, assuming that you've made a good hook-up. That is the real key to safety-the hook-up.
We use a 20' strap (usually we use two) to wrap most of our stuff. I don't like to poke holes in the sidewall, but that is mostly what we do. I probably would have just wrapped your gable wall through the big window on that one side.
Get over your fears and start putting that machine to work. It is significantly more safer to raise those gables with the machine, than it is to use those jacks.
blue
Diesel. I forgot to say this about lifting with the machine: It is much better to practice raising these types of small walls, rather than to learn on the upcoming big ones. Big walls pose much different challenges. If you can't swing the little ones, I would be very concerned about doing the bigger tall ones.
One last thing. I understand you're apprehension regarding the rasing of walls on the second floor. It is un-nerving to raise a heavy load without the benifit of seeing it come up. You have to learn to trust your signal man. One of the ways you learn to trust your signal man, is to have him do all the signalling on walls that you are raising THAT YOU CAN SEE PERFECTLY! When you can see the wall, you think you don't need signals, but if you don't use a signal man in this situation, you won't be on the same page when you are working blind. If you can learn to co-ordinate your lifts, while having full view, you'll feel much better when you're working blind.
One of the reasons that I don't run the equipment much, is because I AM THE SIGNAL MAN! It is my belief that I could put a newbie in the machine and raise the big, heavy, complicated walls, because I understand all of the dynamics that are occurring when the wall is going up. Occasionally, we'll have to shut the machine down and have some good old fashioned conversation, but that usually occurs because I'm not as assured of some of the machine's capability and I tend to do things conservatively.
blue
Oh yeah.... one more thing...
Yes, we stage the roof sheathing inside the frame before framing the roof. When we sheath, we have a cut man inside cutting and passing up, and a guy on the roof dealing and nailing off. I know you park the machine with the sheathing outside the roof and then cut right up there, right? I just don't like the idea of the guys (or myself) running around on a 2 story 12 pitch with full sheets of plywood in the wind.
Call me crazy, but it's what works for us.
Yes, we stage the roof sheathing inside the frame before framing the roof. When we sheath, we have a cut man inside cutting and passing up, and a guy on the roof dealing and nailing off. I know you park the machine with the sheathing outside the roof and then cut right up there, right? I just don't like the idea of the guys (or myself) running around on a 2 story 12 pitch with full sheets of plywood in the wind.
Call me crazy, but it's what works for us
I will not call you crazy. You always have to do what works best for you.
I would not be a happy camper pulling up those sheets though. I know, from experience that the most dangerous time lifting is when you bend over to grab those sheets. I have several crushed vertabraes and I can say with certainty that I wouldn't have any if I had started with a machine when I was 20. I would seriously think about the balance between walking safety and lifting safety.
blue
I appreciate the advice Blue. Don asked why I didn't use the machine, and I gave an honest answer.
The gable with the big window in it is the only one that we could have potentially used the machine on. Even at that, with the dumpster right in front of it, and 10' from the house, I'm not sure my machine would have had the reach anyway.
The other gable end is not an area I can get my machine into anyway. I can't drive around back because of the septic. And I can get there from the front, because my wires are only about 12' from the ground because they're on a temporary pole. Even if the wires weren't there, I'd have to drive on the neighbor's property to get there as this is our only close setback.
Logistics aside.... sometimes I look around and ask myself if I'd rather mess around with something I'm uncomfortable with, or go get the jacks and have the wall up before I even have time to hem and haw about it. I can't imagine the machine being any faster or safer than wall jacks on gables that small anyway. But if you say so, I'll take your word.... you've probably forgotten more about framing than I'll ever know. That's a compliment if you're wondering.
Even still, I appreciate the tips on using the machine more effectively. I've got two 30' straps that I bought specifically for raising walls... might be time to start using them more often.
I have a question though... when you build your gables in two pieces... how do you finish the cornice returns when they're below the line of the top plates for the walls? Also, do you guys span your sheathing to cover the rim joist below, or just sheath the walls and then throw a rip in to cover the box? When we build our first floor walls on the deck, we overhang the plywood to lap over the rim joist down to about 1/4" short of the bottom of the mudsill. On walls with deep 2nd floor joists or 9' walls we'll sometimes start with a 2' rip so we're not left trying to nail off only 6" out of 48" on the first course of the second floor walls. Then when we raise the walls, someone goes back around and nails off the plywood "skirt", as we call it, to the framing below. I'm guessing that this isn't how you do it?
Sorry this post is getting so long, but I have another question. How would you cut the roof (or order trusses) before you had the old roof off on a 'pop top'? For instance, of course I knew that the existing footprint was right around 42' X 24', but I didn't know the exact framing dimensions before we popped it. Our house had 2 layers of siding and 3/8" sheathing with 3/4" shiplap under everything on the upper gables. How do you see that type of stuff coming? It just seems like with a remodel type job there's so much boogering and fudging that you have to remain flexible, no?
Sorry, but I've got another question...
If you're raising a gable (or any big wall) with the machine, and you don't have the bottom strapped to the deck, how do you position it left and right? Do you actually drive the machine with the boom extended and loaded like that? I'm pretty sure that I'd need to have the stabilizers down to even get it off the deck with the boom extended.... moving left and right would mean I'd have to raise the stabilizers with the boom extended and loaded not knowing if the azz end of the machine was gonna lift or not when I raise the stabilizers.
These are the things that go through my head while the guys have the walls jacks already set up and the gable half raised. See what I mean. My squash is a tough place to be sometimes.
Brian,Congratulations on doing work on your own home. You deserve it. Looks great. Nice work as always. Keep doing what your doing and if you want to learn how to use the machine keep practicing on your other jobsites like you do but learning on your own home when doing an ADD-A-LEVEL is not the time to waste and practice. What happens if you dropped the wall because your not used to doing it? Working the way your comfortable and keeping your house water tight is more important. The more practice you get with the machine then you can use it on the next add-a-level.Joe Carola
Thanks Joe, I appreciate the advice and the kind words. It really is nice to finally work on our own place after doing it for everyone else all the time. Only bummer is watching the checkbook balance go down without any of those nice big checks to offset it! LOL. Just kidding... it's all money well spent. We hope to raise kids in this house... what more can I say?
If you're raising a gable (or any big wall) with the machine, and you don't have the bottom strapped to the deck, how do you position it left and right? Do you actually drive the machine with the boom extended and loaded like that? I'm pretty sure that I'd need to have the stabilizers down to even get it off the deck with the boom extended.... moving left and right would mean I'd have to raise the stabilizers with the boom extended and loaded not knowing if the azz end of the machine was gonna lift or not when I raise the stabilizers
Now were venturing into the nitty gritty.
We make every possible attempt to position our machine in the exact spot that it should be, to raise the wall into it's final position, without having to move the wheels.
We don't have stablizers, but we do have an automatic stabilizer system that locks the four wheels and essentially pushes the center of gravity back toward the counterweight. If we move it while the boom is above a certain degree, we risk finding a hole with the locked axles and basically, tipping over!
It is imperative that if we are going to move the machine, extended, that we have a "same plane" grade situation.
most often, we are able to raise the walls without moving. Sometimes, we carry a heavy wall from the table to the wall. In those situations, our boom is not extended up very high. We shuttle to the spot that we need to be, then do the extending/raising.
Like I've already mentioned, the truss boom is very important for us to raise walls and shuttle with them. We can gain 12' in height without booming up just by tilting the jib!
If we do have to move, and the terrain is questionable, we would raise the load as high as possible. Set it down, brace it, move the machine, then re-raise it to it's final position.
You do have to learn the limits. I haven't raised many heavy walls, but I have almost tipped a load of joist into the basement when I extended too far with a heavy load. I was quick to retract when I felt the rear end raising.
blue
blue
Brian, please don't think I was criticizing you, or your ideas in any way. I was aware of the grade differntials and these often pose problems that sometimes can't easily be over come. That's why I qualified my response as to slope conditions.
The gable with the big window in it is the only one that we could have potentially used the machine on. Even at that, with the dumpster right in front of it, and 10' from the house, I'm not sure my machine would have had the reach anyway.
I'm fairly certain your machine would have the reach. Often, when in doubt, we simply drive up, extend the boom and make a visual inspection/deduction. Even if the machine will only raise it 90% of the way, we'd raise it as far as we can, then push the rest of the way with braces attached.
This is one of those situations where the extended boom comes into play. That extra 12' is priceless when tilting tall walls.
The dumpster probably shouldn't/wouldn't be a factor. The machine will move it out, then back in.
Logistics aside.... sometimes I look around and ask myself if I'd rather mess around with something I'm uncomfortable with, or go get the jacks and have the wall up before I even have time to hem and haw about it. I can't imagine the machine being any faster or safer than wall jacks on gables that small anyway. But if you say so, I'll take your word.... you've probably forgotten more about framing than I'll ever know. That's a compliment if you're wondering
You'll only be uncomfortable for the first few.
I've raised thousands of walls with jacks. Hundreds with the machine. The machine is by far safer. I've had worker's comp injuries that resulted from the crank of the jack. I've had jacks fall over. I've probably herniated my disks raising the jack!
Once you learn how to hook the wall, it isn't going anywhere, but where you put it! You could hook it up, stand it up and leave it all night without braces. It'll still be standing there in the morning. You are seriously underestimating the holding power from the skyhook above.
Even still, I appreciate the tips on using the machine more effectively. I've got two 30' straps that I bought specifically for raising walls... might be time to start using them more often.
I think those 30' straps would be long, depending on how you hook it. Often, we just loop the 20's. It makes it easier to unhook. Occasionally, we need to choke the 20's when we need a wider spread. Our machine will easily pick up a 40 wall with the 20's choked. We would hook them in 10' from each end, assuming the wall weights are equal. We've had 22', 16' and a variety of steel chokers. The 20's get the most use.
I'll attack the other questions in a different post.
blue
I have a question though... when you build your gables in two pieces... how do you finish the cornice returns when they're below the line of the top plates for the walls?
We typically ignore the fact that the cornice extend below the truss. The picture shows a gable that we've built separate. It's not obvious, but the bottom belt is hanging down about 8". If you look closely at the far corner, you would see that I've cut it to length, mitreing the rake. I haven't put in the bulkhead (some call it a shutoff), nor the wedge. I noticed that you put both the bulkhead and wedge on before you raise. That tells me that you are confident about your procedures and you can rely on your accuracy.
One of the reasons that you're able to do the entire gable, including those last pieces, is because you haven't built any of the soffit system. You are going to fit the soffit to your gable trim, and let the chips fall where they lay. I've finished off many a gable in the same manner myself. It usually works fine.
On this particular gable, we have already finished the soffits on the walls. If we tried to put the bulkhead and wedge on, we'd be trying to fit too much. We'd end up damanging one or the other trying to shoehorn the assembly in.
Also, do you guys span your sheathing to cover the rim joist below, or just sheath the walls and then throw a rip in to cover the box? When we build our first floor walls on the deck, we overhang the plywood to lap over the rim joist down to about 1/4" short of the bottom of the mudsill. On walls with deep 2nd floor joists or 9' walls we'll sometimes start with a 2' rip so we're not left trying to nail off only 6" out of 48" on the first course of the second floor walls. Then when we raise the walls, someone goes back around and nails off the plywood "skirt", as we call it, to the framing below. I'm guessing that this isn't how you do it?
We've done the sheathing many different ways. Typically, we don't sheath the rim joists. We also cut the sheathing flush on the top of the walls, and flush on the bottom of the gables. But, like I said, we've also overhang it too on different occasions, for different reasons. That wouldn't particularly slow us down either way. The only concern would be when we are tilting the finished product up. We would have to be careful to not break off the hanging plywood (the skirt).
On to the roof question.
blue
Blue, I just want to jump in and tell you that I appreciate you answering my questions... all 90 of them!
I don't build my soffits on my walls, because we don't ever work with trusses. Well, rarely. So my soffits are actually part of my rafters, once the roof is framed they're all ready to be trimmed out.
The cornice return on my own gable in this thread was a poor example. Most of the houses I frame have the larger returns with a hip roof and the fascia and soffit are just a continuation of the main, wrapped around the corner and terminating into the gable wall. Those are the ones I was referring to. With all those little parts and pieces of trim, I'd much rather frame them on the deck than up in the air. Some of the returns on these houses can take me close to an hour to cut and assemble the first one. Then I just make a list of the sizes of all the parts and pieces and keep it in my belt until they're all done. The first one can take an hour and the last one about 10 minutes.
FWIW, I'm not at all offended by you questioning my practices. How else can I learn? I only get offended when other framers see something different from what they do and automatically assume that it's idiotic, slow, or just plain wrong. That's just ignorant. Some of my practices are learned behaviors from when we didn't have a machine. Old habits die hard and I'm always making a conscious effort to incorporate the machine as much as possible into the ultimate goal of efficiency. But we all need a fresh set of eyes on our process from time to time. I'm also a self-taught framer so most of what I know is learned from books, the internet, or trial and error. Heavy on the error. You can laugh if you'd like at my 'education' but believe me... I wish I had a real mentor when I first started out framing. But we all play the hand we get dealt, right?
I appreciate anyone who is willing to share their experience with me. It makes me a better framer, and that really is the ultimate goal.
Diesel,
It's nice to see someone in the framing trades who obviously takes pride in his work; too many folks are content to say " It's just the rough frame" and slack on what is an (the most ) important part of someone's home. I've had plenty of people look at me like I've got a ween growing out of my forehead when I string a line to cut off a jet, or eye a fascia and move something, cause I see a sag of an eighth inch. I wonder myself if I'm nuts to be so particular.
But....I've also gotten a ton of work from people who've heard from different trades that I do a true frame, so.......anyhow I sleep ok.My point is, You're on the right track. You can always learn new stuff, I sure still am, after 20+ years, and my mentor (69yo) says he still is, too.
The standing walls with the machine thing would spook me, too. I've been doing big walls with jacks, straps and chains for so long, I hate to change the system now that we have a lift to work with.Starting off slow , with small walls. Honestly, for the 15 minutes it takes to raise a 28 foot gable with an 8 or 9 pitch, I don't know that I'll ever be comfy enough to make that jump. Don't do it till it feels right. Someone gets hurt, there's no "do over"
Addition looks awesome. Nice job with the quick dry in.
Bing
don't build my soffits on my walls, because we don't ever work with trusses. Well, rarely. So my soffits are actually part of my rafters, once the roof is framed they're all ready to be trimmed out
The cornice return on my own gable in this thread was a poor example. Most of the houses I frame have the larger returns with a hip roof and the fascia and soffit are just a continuation of the main, wrapped around the corner and terminating into the gable wall. Those are the ones I was referring to. With all those little parts and pieces of trim, I'd much rather frame them on the deck than up in the air. Some of the returns on these houses can take me close to an hour to cut and assemble the first one. Then I just make a list of the sizes of all the parts and pieces and keep it in my belt until they're all done. The first one can take an hour and the last one about 10 minutes.
Diesel, we call these "hip returns". Many around here call them "queen ann's".
We do a variety of things when we do the queen ann's. Most of the framers around here tend to put the queen ann on the wall, then attach the gable, then trim the gable to the returns, just like you do. Of course, I think different.
I prefer to finish the soffit system, and leave the return off, depending on the height. Of course, with the machine, we can always go up there in a garbage box too.
Like I said, I prefer to keep the two parts of the gable separate. To do this, we often build mock up. The first picture shows the mockup. The second shows the gable done with the mock upremoved. The mock up is a duplication of the return.
Different styles of returns pose different problems. This technique occasionally is problematic.
When I'm building returns, I typically build them two at a time. I don't bother keeping a running list of part lengths, because I typically already know what length they are since I use a framing square for every cut. With the framing square, it's not usually a question of what length, but rather what is the pitch and run. Normally, we scale the picture and make the box the length of the picture. The last house didn't have a picture (it was one of Boss Hog's nightmare drawings), so we just used an arbitrary number 32" and it worked fine.
I do remember in my younger days marveling at how fast the last hip return was built, compared to the first one. The absolute worst time I've seen was 8 hours for ONE HIP RETURN! Since I was deparate for help at the time, I couldn't fire the guy. He came in the next day and spent another 8 hours for the other one! He was working on the garage.
When he watched me put two up in 45 minutes at the end of the day (I was framing the front gable and had to duplicate his corners), he obviously got flustered. When he drove off that night, he took my saw and cord and I never saw him again. I still owe him a couple hundred, but he has my tools so were even.
!6 hours for two hip returns! Easy one too...they were 12/12's!
blue
Normally, we scale the picture and make the box the length of the picture. The last house didn't have a picture (it was one of Boss Hog's nightmare drawings), so we just used an arbitrary number 32" and it worked fine.
See, now I never bothered to do that. To determine the size, I let the other trim on the gable tell me. What I mean, is that I like to size the return exactly large enough so that the short point of the rake frieze lands right at the common- hip-common intersection of the hip roof of the return. Let me see if I can find a picture.
What I do is take my framing square (yes mine gets a lot of use too!) and mark the horizontal line off the soffit height on the gable. Then I measure up for the fascia. Then the rise of the return's roof. I then snap a line down the rake for the lowest piece of trim on the gable, usually the frieze. Where these two lines intersect is where I make the common run end. The return is the distance from the corner to this intersection, plus the run of the return's roof.
You got any update pics?
jt8
"Striving for excellence motivates you; striving for perfection is demoralizing." --Harriet Braiker
I'll try and post some pics that I took last night. I cut through from the new to the old this past weekend in the new stairwell. Then I framed the landing and the stairs on Saturday and Sunday.
On Monday we did some 'touch up work'. That's a nice way to say that the front wall (the 4' tall one) blew out about 1 1/2" in the middle. It will eventually rely on the ceiling joists and bracing out to the front porch ceiling for support, by design. But I went skimpy on the temp bracing and when it started to go out I ignored it and blew past it trying to get dried in. Gotta keep your eyes on the prize sometimes.
So on Monday we jacked up the ridge a bit and sucked that wall back in plumb with a little assistance from the machine. Boogerin' at it's finest. There's now a temp brace about every 32" or so to keep it where it's supposed to be. Nailing the ceiling joists off helps too, of course. We spent the rest of Monday strapping the ceiling, and then stripping some siding and sheathing out front in preparation for the front porch. Oh yeah, we also staged the back and put up the Azek soffit and fascia boards. 12" OH with 2" aluminum strip vent for the soffit, and 1x8 fascia.
When we stripped the sheathing out front, we also repaired a bunch of water and termite damage that had plagued the sills years ago. Replaced a fair amount of the mudsill. Since there wasn't any rim joist on this frame, we installed blocking between all the joists while we had it open. Then we sheathed it all back over (after splicing the wire I stuck a screwdriver into while pulling staples) and covered it all up with ice & water shield.
Yesterday (Tuesday) we framed most of the second floor partition walls while it rained outside. The only walls we couldn't frame were the ones that ran near all the temporary bracing for the pony wall. When we were done, we installed all the windows but one in the gable end. We're keeping that open so we can get the rest of the stock up, the tubs, and the air handler before we close it all up for good.
I don't have time to post pictures right now cuz I've got to get in the shower. My in-laws are here from Florida and are staying at a B&B up the street. We're all going out to dinner tonight to celebrate our 2nd wedding anniversary (yesterday).
I will get to the pics though. I've been taking 'em. Just don't have time to download and resize them right now.
Brian,
What do you think of the Azek? We've thought about using it.
Azek.... I like it and hate it. If it weren't my own house I'd be cursing it up and down. Have you used it before? It's expensive and a PIA to handle. I'm 5'8" and I can pretty much hold a 1x8 on the flat over my head and still have both ends on the ground. Not really, but pretty close.
Just getting it up on the SCMS stand can be a challenge! But if you don't like to paint (I really really don't) and you don't want to do this again for a long time.... it's a great choice.
I also like the fact that every piece is identical so you get nice lines. The 18' length is nice too and every inch of it is good useable stock. If you ever use a router on any of your trim for edge details or something, you'll really love it. Tools like warm butter.
Brian,
Jasen talked to the welder tonight, so hopefully we'll have the "spreader bar" next week sometime. What it will allow us to do is to get two wider pick points lifting tall walls or long walls with the forklift. We lifted a 48' standard 8' tall wall on the last house and the pic points were too narrow. It was one of those stupid mistakes. We didn't pay enough attention when we sheathed and the sheathing split right on the topplate whic split over the king stud on a 6' window opening and even though it was double top plated, the wall basically split in half :-( We looked like idiots. The neighbor looked over right as the wall crashed down, it was only about 4' off the deck at the top, so it didn't cause any damage, but as soon as it hit, I hollered out of the forklift "Great idea guys, let's lift this wall in two pieces, it'll be safter!!!" I don't know if the neighbor bought it :-) I doubt it.
We decided that we should have a spreader bar made so we can get wider and multiple pic points. On that house we had some long hip beam to set, and with the spreader bar and straps, we could actually vary the strap length to roughly the pitch of the hip and then sky it right into place. :-) At least that is the idea.
This worked, but we need a process that is more elegant
http://pic9.picturetrail.com/VOL293/2163851/7154567/111217514.jpg
The hip was about 27' long so we put it on the forklift to get it around back http://pic9.picturetrail.com/VOL293/2163851/7154567/111217505.jpg
http://pic9.picturetrail.com/VOL293/2163851/7154567/111217537.jpg
http://pic9.picturetrail.com/VOL293/2163851/7154567/111217542.jpg
And since you posted a pic of your nephew, I'm posting my 13 1/2 month old neice<!---->
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Yep, we're dried in for the most part. I'll try to post an update over in the thread on my house.
WELL?! ;)jt8
"Striving for excellence motivates you; striving for perfection is demoralizing." --Harriet Braiker
Hi John,
Just got back from dinner.... french onion soup and Ceasar salad to start. Followed by a 6 oz filet mignon and lobster pie combo with a baked potato and veggies. Wrapped up with a slice of carrot cake and a cup of coffee. Nice. Feelin' good right about now.
The pictures from last night came out pretty lousy but I'll post a few anyway. I've got a really old digital camera which does ok during the day but lacks a bit at night. I was just messing around and wanted some pics of it all lit up with work lights at night. Bad experiment.
I'll post a few anyway.
Oh and here's one of my nephew... just cuz he's so damm cute...that's my brother holding him..
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I got a ticket yesterday for letting my 5 year old sit in my lap and drive in our cove.I have tought all my kids how to drive this way. The sheriffs were parked in my cove bsing I guess, so when he and my daughter got off the bus I let him drive up one cove and back to our cove when they saw us they turned on the lights and asked what we were doing I told him that I was letting him practice driving and do it routinely.They were not happy about that so he starts writing and I was not happy so one thing led to another and they were ready to arrest me until I backed down.
VIOLATION :LAP DRIVING ORD.-20-41
I wonder how much this is gonna cost me.
ANDYSZ2 I MAY DISAGREE WITH WHAT YOUR SAYING BUT I WILL DEFEND TO THE DEATH YOUR RIGHT TO SAY IT.
Remodeler/Punchout
VIOLATION :LAP DRIVING ORD.-20-41
As long as lap dances are still legal, its ok. :)
The trick to letting the kids take the wheel is to be out in the boondocks when you do it. Amazing the number of things you can get away with when you live in the country. :)jt8
"Striving for excellence motivates you; striving for perfection is demoralizing." --Harriet Braiker
Hey John thanks for checking in on me! We're doing pretty good, I think. Don't ask me how the budget is doing though... we just picked out bath fixtures for the two bathrooms... I don't even want to see that tab.
I posted some pics though, check 'em out.
Just got back from dinner.... french onion soup and Ceasar salad to start. Followed by a 6 oz filet mignon and lobster pie combo with a baked potato and veggies. Wrapped up with a slice of carrot cake and a cup of coffee. Nice. Feelin' good right about now.
Sheeze, I gotta start hanging around your family! Don't know what lobster pie is, but I'd be willing to risk it.
Cute kid. Of course if he was related to Boss Hog, he would be OPERATING the equipment :)
Yeah, your camera doesn't seem to dig low light situations, but looks like you're still blasting along. Shoot, you look like you're gonna be ready for the sparkies by next week.
How wide is the staircase? Is there enough room to crank a king sized box springs through there? As much as I like Stan's stairs, my preference is for a stair-landing-stair, like you've got setup. It feels more compact, and God forbid, but if anyone takes a spill, they only fall down half as many steps. The only drawback is when that king boxspring or an overly long dresser goes up and has to make the corners.
pic 902 was interesting. Turn the lower light off, have someone stand in the 2nd floor opening, and move the ladder out of the pic, and the person would look like they were just hovering in air. Oh wait...someone has already stuck a window in there. Oh well.
Looks good, Brian.
jt8
"Striving for excellence motivates you; striving for perfection is demoralizing." --Harriet Braiker
Edited 9/22/2005 11:29 am ET by JohnT8
Diesel, here's the picture that I forgot to post with this response.
blue
How would you cut the roof (or order trusses) before you had the old roof off on a 'pop top'? For instance, of course I knew that the existing footprint was right around 42' X 24', but I didn't know the exact framing dimensions before we popped it. Our house had 2 layers of siding and 3/8" sheathing with 3/4" shiplap under everything on the upper gables. How do you see that type of stuff coming? It just seems like with a remodel type job there's so much boogering and fudging that you have to remain flexible, no?
That's the money question right there Brian! I was hoping you'd ask.
We all know that existing frames have a tendency to be less than perfect. The money making question is "what size trusses?".
Obvioulsy, there are a variety of answers, but the one that I would most likely do is this. I would make my decision based on how far I was going to strip off the existing siding on the first floor. If I wasn't stripping any of it, and I intended to line up with it, I'd simply measure siding to siding and deduct the thickness of the new siding going up. It's logical enough eh?
The obvious problem occurs if you cant access both gable edges to measure. In your case, you could.
Then, when I ordered the trusses, I'd build myself in a safety factor of an inch or so on each end. Let's say I decided that the upper span would be 32-0. If I felt I had a good solid measurement, I might order the entire set of trusses to be built at 32-1 with a 10" energy heel. I'd feel confident about that. If I had a shaky measurement, I might add an inch or so and order them 32-2.
The extra inch(s) would simply be buried in the cornice if the deck ended up exactly as measured. If the deck had to grow, I'd have a couple of inches to play with before I had to shift to 2x6 studs.
Of course, all that flexibility depends on the ability to allow the heel to move up or down slightly. If you're meeting another roof and have to plane exact, then there would be more considerations. When I'm ordering trusses, I'm not opposed to tearing into the existing roof, cutting a hole and measuring the heel and projection to the exact 1/8". I temp patch the hole, till the actual construction occurs.
So basically Brian, I would already have dedided how many layers of that existing siding I was going to tear off, before I ordered the trusses. I might even have chopped a hole all the way to the frame to determine exactly what I was dealing with. If I needed to, I'd chop a hole at every corner to determine the consistency of the structure. Sometimes you have to do that when house have been added onto.
blue
Whoops.. forgot to attach a pic....
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DW is on the right, you're in the middle, but the guy on the left is....
bobl Volo, non valeo
Baloney detecter
I think that you are wrong.DP is the guy on the far right holding the blue ribbon.
Nope, bobl got it. The one with the blue ribbon is my stunt double.
I thought you'd never guess. I think the guy on the left is a stalker or something. He sure looks shady enough to be one anyway.