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Actually it’s set, but needs tweaking.
Double doors, entry to resteraunt, eight or nine feet tall. I’ve just glanced at them, haven’t had a close look as I was wearing my grubby work clothes and this is a fairly nice place. I did, however analyse them from the comfort of the bar…
From the bar I could see that there was a gap at the top about 1/2″ to nothing (no gap at hinged side of top), with a coresponding gap along the hinged side (top to bottom).
It looks like it’s not sitting squarely in the opening because the hinges are loose, but they’re not. I checked them.
Now the other thing is that the frame that the hinges are screwed into bows. There’s about 3/8″ reveal at the top and bottom, but about 5/8″ or 11/16″ in the middle.
This all keeps the door from closing easily, and conversely, once it’s closed it doesn’t open easilty either.
The frame appears to be made of cedar, the doors appear to be fir with large glass panels. He said something about them swelling quite a bit too. We’re in Nashville, TN. 92 degrees and 90% humidity.
Do any of these little clues jump out at you? Do you have any tricks for diagnostics and/or repair?
I’m going to have a closer look tomorrow and set up a time to repair it, I’d sure appreciate any tips…
Thanks,
Dan
Replies
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Hey Dan, long time, no see. Is the reveal goofy on just one leaf? Or both? I have seen many a skilled carpenter install door jambs plumb, and then expect the doors to hang "right" without regard for the "levelness" of the floor. I'm sure you know what I mean, just wanted to plant the seed and say hey. - jb
*DanThese observations are mostly pretty obvious:Sounds like you need to get the frame, straight, square and plumb first. . . maybe the rough trimmers needs attention too. Heavy doors with lots of use need extra attention re: solid frame, heavy duty hinges with long, strong fasteners into something 'tres' solid. . .cedar shouldn't be as susceptible to atmosphere as other woods, but it's not particularly strong either, needs extra fasteners.-pm
*Hi young jim,I've been very busy framing up an addition and spending my off time in the lake (floating lawn chairs, margaritas and Fine Homebuilding magazines...)The other one seems fine, it opens and closes easily. I didn't look closely at the frame though as the door worked well...
*Dan, I agree with Patrick. You got to have a strong substrate to hang that substantial of a door off of. If it's a commerical building with metal studs, you may have to go in and put some wood trimmers in to hold the screws that hold the jamb straight. If you get the active jamb straight and you still have a gap across the top, I would guess that the head is not level. Take a helper. Getting a door that size on and off the hinges will be a back breaker. Good luck, Ed.
*Patrick,Yes, they're obvious. I'm just not a door hanging expert. I always get them to work nicely, but it seems to take me a little longer sometimes...The place is a Mexican restaraunt so it's a fake adobe finish and all the visable woodwork is cedar. Very Thouthwethtern!! as some designer might say.If the cedar is more resistant to swelling, then it's the door that's swelling then right? I'm a bit afraid to plane it down as I don't want it to be too small when it shrinks this winter.My initial plan of attack was to check the door for square, then check the opening for square, plumb, level etc. Then devise a plan of attack from there.The hinges look beefy. There's three of them. Could it be that the middle of the cedar frame has become loose (hence the bulge) and that's causing it to work improperly? In general, should I get the (three hinged) door working nicely with the top and bottom hinge, then attach the third, or should I use all three to set it?Any tips for manhandling a very heavy door alone?Going out to look at old houses for the afternoon, be back tonite...Dan
*Ed,You answered my question as I was writing it.Take a helper.I'll also have a little more info monday evening after I have a closer look (no customers present).Thanks.
*Dan,
Joseph FuscoView Image
*Joe, "It's also good that the jamb bows away from the door as opposed to, to the door, this means you can probably shim instead of remove material."No, it bows towards the door at the center hinge. When I said "There's about 3/8" reveal at the top and bottom, but about 5/8" or 11/16" in the middle.", I meant that that's how much of the jamb I can see. I guess it sounded like I was refering to the amount of space between the door and jamb? (The space that's determined by the splay of the hinge right?)I'll let you know what I find out,Dan
*Dan,
Joseph FuscoView Image
*Gotcha.
*Joe,Hinge side jamb = Bowed.Framing = Bowed.The jamb is tight to the framing.The door is square.The opening is square. (aside from the bow)The top of the jamb is level.Damn it, I forgot to check the floor for level.The casement on the outside came off fairly easily.The Thouthwethtern Flair is a rock veneer, not a fake stucco. Mortar covers the edge of the casing inside and out. Although lesser so on the outside. The inside looked like a bitch to remove without destroying the trim, or at least having it look like crud for a couple of days till I can get back and fix it.I stretched a string from top of the jamb to the bottom. Bow is about 3/8" in the middle, towards the door. Same deal with the framing. It seems like I need to plane off a bunch of jamb in the middle.What do you think?Dan
*What made the trimmer bow? - jb
*Thats what I was going to ask. Also is the king stud bowed as well? could you run a screw in to take out this bow or otherwise alter the framing before you start planing the jamb?
*Dan,
Joseph FuscoView Image
*Dan , could there be a big roof load coming down on that side of the door ? Eight or nine feet is pretty tall if they only used a single king stud and single trimmer . Can you tell if this was post construction movement ie. unpainted jamb exposed or mortar pulled away or may be it was always like this ? Chuck
*What are the doors made of? Yesterday I said Fir, but they look more like Pine.Are they 1-3/4" or 2-1/4" (they might be 3") 2-1/4"Are the jambs all wood? Yes. They're 4/4 roughsawn -- Cedar? Is there an applied stop or a rabbited one piece? Applied.What's the jamb thickness?Ummm, Joe you're getting hard of hearing. 4/4Can you cut the doors themselves?I'd rather not.It's hard to give an answer without seeing the actual conditions, I know...I'm sure you would agree. Ummm, yes, I would.If the framing is bowed as you stated, one approach might be to "sawzall" off the framing at the bow.Oh man, don't say that...You could probably do this if you can remove both the interior and exterior casing. Heck Joe, I can do it with only the exterior off. I'm pretty good with a sawzall.I wouldn't remove stock from the "jamb",You wouldn't huh?only if this becomes a last resort would I do this.I suppose you're right.Is reinstalling the doors "not" an options at this time?Once again, I'd rather not. But hell, I guess whatever it takes, it takes.Dan
*Hey Dan,
Joseph FuscoView Image
*Jim, Charles, Chuck,Heh, heh.Kind of rolls off the tounge funny...Ohhhhh,kaaayy,,,,,Why is the king stud and trimmer stud both bowing. (?). Hmmmm.....2x4 wood frame construction. 1/2" plywood, felt paper, wire mesh, lick 'n stick rock veneer. Flat roof trusses with metal roof. There are a ton of logs running through out the place. It's like a web of logs. Big logs supporting medium logs which hold little logs. Maybe a big one's bearing right above that door... However, there is no movement in the mortar on the exterior (aside from me tearing off the casing)or interior.(The interior is "rock" wall too).I'm thinkin' it was crappy lumber and that they set the door on Friday, but I'm tempted to drive out there and have a look if there's a log sitting on that king stud...Thanks,Dan
*Dan,If the jamb is bowed toward the door in the middle and it follows the framing, you might pull off the casing on the other side and see if there is room to shim the top and bottom of the bowed jamb over toward the other side in order to make it plumb. ( Is the other side bowed in the opposite direction? ) Not being able to remove both sides of the casing on the bowed jamb side is not good. Just makes it tougher. Scribing the door to the jamb is not an option. If both sides of the double door jamb are "locked in stone" so to speak, I think your only option is to plane down the jambs to a plumb line and reset your hinges. Thank God you have removable stops. Of course you know this will not be easy. Flat power plane, plunge cuts, belt sander, lots of noise and dust. ( you could do it with a good sharp jack plane if you have all day, but cedar don't plane to pretty good. ) If you get too much gap between the two doors, this means you have to make a wider T-astragal. My rule of thumb is get the man who set it wrong to fix it. This does'nt always work because if he knew how to hang it right in the first place, it wouldn't be wrong now.Is the food that good? If not you can always bail out and change your phone number.Good Luck....Ed. Williams
*Thanks Joe.Do you know Blue's Telephone number?
*Ed,First of all, Welcome to Breaktime.I only looked at the door because a friend of mine works there and told the owner that he knew a good carpenter. I'm really a little too busy to even bother with it, but you never know, fix a door fast and well and all of a sudden the guy wants you to build his addition...So,I haven't been back to see if there's an enormous point load above that door. (The guy said it was an emergency, then he never called back. Whatever.) If there is, I'm off the hook because I'm not licenced for commericial work. If there isn't, I suppose I'll investigate the possibility of plumbing the opening to the bow as you proposed.I just thought of another way:get a lag bolt long enough to reach the next stud and countersink it through the trimmer stud. Yank that sucker till it sucks up the king stud. That is, if they hit the stud with nails when they sheathed the wall.Truthfully though, I don't even want to mess with it...Dan
*Dan,Thanks, good to be here.I like the lag bolt idea. Could be quick and easy. That's always my first choice. Quick and Easy.I hope they don't call you back. I hate fixing something that someone else screwed up. It's not like the guy is going to remodel the place tomorrow and call you.May your phone stay quiet on this one.Ed. Williams
*Agreed.