HIP RAFTERS

| Posted in General Discussion on November 6, 2000 03:32am

*
I am building an 8′ porch around my house and the corner will be in 30 degree increments. Can someone tell me how to figure the length of the two hip rafters? The common rafters will be 4/12 and I know a regular hip is 4/17

Replies

Ken_Drake | Oct 07, 2000 12:40pm | #1
*
Mike,

Multiply 12 by the secant of 30 degrees

12x1.1547=13.8564

This is the run of the hip rafter for 12 inches of run for a common rafter. Therefore, the plumb cut settings using a framing square would be 4 on the tongue, and 13 7/8 on the body. (not 17, as at a 90 degree corner). (If you use a speed square, the angle would be 16 degrees to get the same cut.)

The length of the hip rafter

Draw a right triangle and let the rise be 4 and the run be 13.8564. Use the Pathagorean theorem to find the hypotenuse, which turns out to be 14.4222.

This means that for 12 inches of run for a common rafter, the length of the hip is 14.4222 inches. In other words, the length of the hip rafter is

14.4222/12 = 1.2019 times the run of the common rafter. So in your case, the length of a hip rafter
is 1.2019x 8 feet, or 115 3/8". Of course you'll have to deduct for the thickness of the ridge board against the house if you are using one. The length of the hip rafter tail would be 1.2019 times the RUN of the common rafter tail.

Drop the hip.

To allow the edges of the hip rafters to plane in with the 4/12 common and jack rafters, drop the hip
1/8". In other words, the plumb measurement above the seat cut at the birdsmouth, (the HAP), should be 1/8" less than the measurement on the common and jack rafters.

The plywood cut

If everything falls into place properly, the plywood cut is 26 5/16".

Good luck. If I'm not interpreting your situation correctly, post and let me know.

Ken

Ken_Drake | Oct 07, 2000 01:06pm | #2
*Mike,This might help

blue_eyed_devil_ | Oct 07, 2000 09:46pm | #3
*Ken, would you mind hanging around and being my personal advisor when I need to figure a rafter....?Very precise.blue

The_Tennis_Court_Builder_...on_t | Oct 07, 2000 11:50pm | #4
*Blue...Ken be the framing math wizard of Oz for sure....Use to frame for me on the lake in the early 90s....Also is the Great Grandfather of volleyball...near the Fall colors in peak, by the stream,ajKen...framing a ranch this fall soon but all trusses otherwise I'd fly ya up for a week to play in the North country...Southwest air must have a deal to your way...

Joe_Fusco_ | Oct 08, 2000 12:41am | #5
*Mike, I posted this awhile back, but it sure will work for you too. Best thing is it's fool proof and no math needed. . .

Here is method you can try. I believe these are by far the simplest way to figure how to cut the birds-mouth and plumb cut for any rafter including hips.

You will need a tape measure, string line, framing square and a bevel square. Whatever the width of your rafter stock is subtract 1-1/2" from it and cut a block that wide. i.e. if yours is 5-1/2" (2x6) cut the block 4".Place this block on the rafter plate even with the outside edge. Tack it there. Now tack a string from the ridge to the outside edge of the block.Now using the bevel square you can determine the plumb cut angle. Place the bevel body against the ridge and align the beam with the string. Also measuring from the two points were the string meets the ridge and the block will give you the length of the rafter.Now crown the rafter stock. Put the crown side away from you. Now lay your rafter out the following way. Make one mark at the front of the raft, using the bevel scribe the ridge cut. Measure down the rafter the length you measured and make a mark there. Scribe that line, this is the plumb cut line of the birds mouth. From the top of the bird-mouth plumb cut line measure down the same 4" you used for the block and make a mark. From that mark draw a line square to the plumb mark in the direction of the ridge cut.Now cut the shaded areas and your done. If you want to read some more on roof framing try this.Good luck.

View Image © 1999-2000"The first step towards vice is to shroud innocent actions in mystery, and whoever likes to conceal something sooner or later has reason to conceal it." Aristotle
Mike_McNally | Oct 08, 2000 01:43am | #6
*Ken. Thanks ever so much, you sure solved my problem and I might add, with great articulation and clairity. Can I assume that the same process can be used to find the length of any such hip i.e. if I were rounding the corner in 15 degree increments all I would have to do is multiply the secant of 15 etc? Do you have an email address I can reach you directly in case I get into another jam? Mine is [email protected].I do kitchens and interior work and this is a one time thing for me, at least I hope so. Thanks again for the great presentation.Mike
Ken_Drake | Oct 08, 2000 02:26pm | #7
*Mike,You can find a person's e-mail address by simply clicking on his name in the post. You're welcome to e-mail me if you have other math related problems, but it's always a good idea to post it here also, so all who wish can participate.At the end of my first post I mentioned that I would like you to post again if I wasn't interpreting your information correctly.The reason I wrote that was that it seems to me that to accomplish what you are trying to do, you would need to turn twice at the corner @ 30 degrees ( actually 3 times ),which would result in THREE hips, not two, as you mentioned (See drawing in attachment below)If this is indeed what you want to do, then the information in my first post would not apply. Instead, you would start by multiplying 12 times the secant of 15 degrees to find the run of the hip for 12 inches of common run.12x1.0353=12.4236 or approximately 12 7/16". This would be the setting on the body of the framing square, with 4 on the tongue, to get the plumb and level lines on the hips.( just a hair under 18 degrees, using a speed square)As in my first post, using 4 as the rise, and 12.4236 as the run, the length of the hip would be 13.0517 for 12 inches of common rafter RUN.So, the length of the hip would be 13.0517/12=1.0876 times the run of the common rafter. For your porch,1.0876x96"=104 3/8"Drop the hip 1/16" (hardly worth the time)The plywood cut on a full 4x8 sheet = 12 3/16"Please post again soon.Ken
Mike_McNally | Oct 08, 2000 06:22pm | #8
*Ken,Thanks for your reply. From your last post I understand that you propose to make the turn in 4 increments instead of 3. This would be more of a gradual turn and leave more floor space. The first turn would be 15deg followed by two 30,s and ending with a 15. My first thought was to make the turn in 3 increments. If I am correct, the length of the first hip would be adjusted as your second post indicates, the second would be as your first post indicated and the third as the second post showed. It seems your system can be used to lay out any hip?My main roof will be 7/12, built up with 4x8 roof beams, 7 1/4 insulating panels and 3/4 decking.I forsee a problem in determining the length of the commons along the front because they are intersecting the main roof much higher than the side rafters meet the house. I was going to start along the side and where the last common meets the front roof I was going to strike a line and then measure down to the front top plate for the length of the front commons. Do you think this would work?Thanks again for your intreest and help. You are going to be one popular person after this episode.Mike
Ken_Drake | Oct 08, 2000 11:33pm | #9
*Mike, I'm not sure about the popularity thing. Popularity and 75 cents gets you a cup of coffee in this forum, on a good day. The main problem that I'm having at this point is understanding the full nature of your project. I wasn't aware that the 4/12 porch roof was to die on top of an existing 7/12 roof until your last post. Also, is the 7/12 roof a gable roof or a hip at these corners? Are the beams and/or walls that are going to carry the porch rafters set at the same height as the main building walls? It would be very helpful if you could provide some kind of a sketch, and more detailed info. In my last post, I showed you a way to make the corner using three hips. I did this because in your original post you stated the corner was to be in 30 degree increments. If you wish to frame it using only two hips, I'm enclosing yet another attachment (see below ) which shows how this would typically be done. But notice that the corner is made up of two 45 degree turns, not three 30 degree turns. What this amounts to is simply framing 1/8 of a regular octagon at the corner. As you can see in the attachment, the run of the hip is equal to 12 times the secant of 22 1/2 degrees, or 12.9887 which is very, very close to 13. So if you set 4 on the tongue and 13 on the body, you'll get the proper plumb and level cuts on the hips. I'm not going to comment on the length of the hips, or for that matter, the length of the common rafters, because it's impossible to do so until more info is provided, as I suggested earlier.
Mike_McNally | Oct 09, 2000 04:28am | #10
*KenI hope you received the sketch. The answers to your questions are:1. Yes it is a Gable Roof and is not a hop at the corners.2. Yes the top plate of the porch and the house are at the same height.I hope this helps, some other factors that may help.1. The roof beams are full 4x8's.2. The ridge is a full 6x10 beam.3. The walls are made of 2x6's.4. The beams will be hung from the ridge and I presume the HAP should be the same at both the wall and ridge intersections.5. Is there any set formula to determine the height of the ridge. I built a place in the Adirondacks years ago and I was able to figure it out but it took some time.Again, thanks for your help. I love working with trig, it's the visualization that gives me problems.Mike
Ken_Drake | Oct 09, 2000 11:48am | #11
*Mike,I received your e-mail but did not find any attachment to it. Apparently you have decided to go with the 2 hip approach as shown in my last attachment. I think that's a good decision.As far as some of your other questions go, I made a quick sketch of what you described, and am attaching it to this post. Let me know if it is what you described and I'll help you with setting the ridge height. (What is the HAP? What is the SPAN? Exact width of ridge beam?)
Ken_Drake | Oct 10, 2000 04:41pm | #13
*MikeThanks for the e-mail and for clearing up some of the areas in question. As I understand it from your e-mail, you have decided to use the 3 hip approach at the porch corner. Take a moment to open the attachment at the bottom of this post to see the numbers that I've worked out for you.Notice that the centerlines of the three hips and the two common rafters all meet at a point that is directly above the 2x6 corner of the of main house. I've also indicated the lengths of the wall plates needed so that all three hips will be equal regular hips and all of the roof planes will have the same 4/12 pitch, while at the same time meeting at this chosen point.Notice that the CENTERLINES of the two common rafters shown, are in line with the building lines,( the outside plate line )Also indicated is the line and the location where the 4/12 roof will intersect the 7/12 roof.See my next post for a sectional view
Ken_Drake | Oct 10, 2000 06:00pm | #14
*Mike,Check out the attachment below for a sectional view of the roof where the 4/12 rafters die on top of the 7/12 main roof.The most important feature of the drawing is that the HAP ( the plumb measurement above the heel cut of the birdsmouth ) is the same at all 4 locations where the birdsmouths occur. ( 6 1/4" )You mentioned in your e-mail that the total thickness of the main roof, which includes the 4x8 rafters, the 3/4 ply, the insulatimg panels, and the OSB, is 16".I worked out the lengths of the 4/12 rafters, based on this information, but if you meant that the total thickness of the roof was to be 16" before the OSB, you can still layout the rafters as shown, just remember to remove the thickness of the OSB when you make the 78 degree cut. Of course if that were the case, the point of intersection would be a little less than 7'7", depending on the thickness.I'll take a moment to clear up something that you mentioned in e-mail.The 78 degree angle at the top of the 4/12 rafter is NOT affected by the thickness of the main roof or the relative heights of the walls/beams that the rafters sit on. Whenever a 4/12 rafter intersects with a 7/12 roof in this manner, the angle will always be the same, 18 degrees. ( Actually it's 18 1/4, I rounded it off.)To find this angle for any two pitches, subtract the smaller roof angle from the larger roof angle, and then subtract your answer from 90 degrees. That simple.90 - ( 30 1/4 - 18 1/2 )= 90 - 11 3/4= 18 1/4degreesYou calculated that the BOTTOM of the 6x10 ridge beam would be 9'1" above the plate level. I agree, as long as the 17' run that you mentioned in e-mail was to the FACE of the beam, NOT the center, as shown.Finally, I showed a 32" pony wall that you didn't say anything about, but assumed that you would use.Use the same HAP at this wall and the rafter lengths as shown.See next post for sectional view at gable end
Ken_Drake | Oct 10, 2000 06:18pm | #15
*Mike,Here's a sectional view of the 4/12 rafters that die up against the gable end of the house. I'm showing a 2x10 ridge board nailed directly to the 2x6 gable studs.Since the ridge board is 1 1/2 inches thick, the run of the common rafters will be 7' 10 1/2", and the length of the rafters will be 8' 3 5/8", measured from the top of the plumb cut to the top of the HAP. All rafter measurements should be made this way when they have been calculated or looked up in rafter tables.The top of a 2x10 ridge should be 3' 1 3/4" above the plate, as shown. The ridge board is not beveled to the 4/12 pitch in this drawing.
Ken_Drake | Oct 10, 2000 06:42pm | #16
*Mike,Here's a drawing of a regular 12 sided polygon, or a dodecagon.As you can see, what you are framing on your porch, is 1/4 of a dodecagon hip roof. The math below the dodecagon shows how to find the actual run of the hip. You can then determine the length of the hip that corresponds to 12" of run for a common rafter, or 13.0514" in this case.In other words, the length of the hip rafter is 13.0514/12 = 1.0876 times the run of a common rafter.IF the run of the common rafters were 96", then the length of the hip rafter is 1.0876x96"=104 3/8", if the rafter can make it all the way to the FRAMING POINT.Notice also from the sketch that the correct framing square settings to cut the hips are 4 on the tongue, and 12.4233 or 12 7/16 on the body.
Ken_Drake | Oct 10, 2000 07:58pm | #17
*Mike,Drawing a bunch of lines on paper that all come to a point is easy, but when it comes to framing all these rafters that are 1 1/2" wide and trying to get them all to tie in together, it's not always so easy.I thought you might be interested in how I would go about doing it. (Open the attachment)First of all, locate the point in the drawing that I have labeled "C". This point is the corner of the main house 2x6 wall frame. I want the centerlines of the 3 hip rafters and the centerlines of the 2 common rafters to all meet directly above this wall corner.To start with, since I want the centerline of the 4/12 common rafter to lie over this point, when building the 32" pony wall shown in FIG 1 in a previous post, I would let the top plates extend beyond the corner by 3/4". Also, I wouldn't allow this rafter to run all the way to the 7/12 roof hanging 3/4" over the gable end as it might interfere with the soffit work, so I would allow the birdsmouth to exist on it so it could sit on the pony wall, and then plumb cut it. The center of this rafter should be at the 25 3/4" point that is indicated on the roof plan.Next I would cut a second common rafter that butts to the first one as shown in the DETAIL and center it in the same way. The edges of these 2 common rafters should meet at point "B" Notice that this second common rafter does not butt to the ridge board, so its RUN is only shortened by 3/4". Therefore, its run is 7' 11 1/4" and its length is 8'4 3/4"All of the remaing rafters on the gable side will butt to the ridge board and will be cut as shown in FIG2.Next I would cut and set the CENTER of the three hips.Using 4 on the tongue and 12 7/16 on the body, cut a double cheek cut with you saw set at 45 degreesjust as you would do for a "normal" hip roof.Since the hip rafter can't make it all the way to the FRAMING POINT, POINT "C", it is going to be shorter than we previously calculated. Look at it this way. It is losing 3/4" of common rafter RUN, so its new length from the top of the double cheek cut to its top point of the HAP would be 1.0876x7'11 1/4"or 1.0876x95 1/4"= 103 5/8". But why not KISS ( KEEP IT SIMPLE STUPID ) Just measure the damn thing. Your framing could be off a little, so just cut it to fit.After you cut it, check to see how far off you actually are from 103 5/8" just for the fun of it. You only need to drop the hip 1/16", so HAP= 6 3/16"on the hips. The edges of this center hip should plane in with the common rafters at points "A" and "D", as they normally would.The next step for me would be to RIP ( not cross cut)a couple of blocks that the other two hips will fit against. The long point to long point measurement for these blocks is 2 7/8". That's the measurement that forces the centerlines of the hips to all go to the same place, point "C". RIP one side of the block at 30 degrees and the other at 15 degrees. Make sure that the 30 degree bevel is against the common when you set it. Also plane the top edge of the block in with the common rafter at pont E in the DETAIL.The other side of the block does NOT plane in with the edge of the center hip, it will sit a little low, as expected.Your are now ready to cut and set the remaining two hips.Notice that the top cut on the hip is at a 15 degree bevel. Use your framing square to lay out a plumb line on one of the hip rafters, set your circular saw at 15 degrees and cut. Now, measure from the point "E" where the edge of the hip will plane in with both the block and the common, to the plate. Transfer this measurement to your hip rafter and cut. On the other hip, the short point will be on the other side so be careful.Filling in any remaining common and jack rafters is fairly easy, so I'll just cut this post off here and have a brew.Good luckKen
Joe_Fusco_ | Oct 11, 2000 01:45am | #18
*Mike,

Ken is only goshing you with this post.

"Mike, Here's a drawing of a regular 12 sided polygon, or a dodecagon. As you can see, what you are framing on your porch, is 1/4 of a dodecagon hip roof. The math below the dodecagon shows how to find the actual run of the hip. You can then determine the length of the hip that corresponds to 12" of run for a common rafter, or 13.0514" in this case. In other words, the length of the hip rafter is 13.0514/12 = 1.0876 times the run of a common rafter. IF the run of the common rafters were 96", then the length of the hip rafter is 1.0876x96"=104 3/8", if the rafter can make it all the way to the FRAMING POINT. Notice also from the sketch that the correct framing square settings to cut the hips are 4 on the tongue, and 12.4233 or 12 7/16 on the body."

Both hip and common are exactly the same. . . Care to have another shot at it Ken?

View Image © 1999-2000"The first step towards vice is to shroud innocent actions in mystery, and whoever likes to conceal something sooner or later has reason to conceal it." Aristotle
The_Tennis_Court_Builder_...on_t | Oct 11, 2000 02:44am | #19
*"Joshing" Joe or is it "goshing Goe?"...Joe...you're drawing is not the same as Ken's as you are indeed rotating the common rafters to two equa-distant points along an arc...Your roof would work fine, but Ken is detailing the roof using hips and parts of a dodecagon...The two roofs are different.near the stream, "jostling" ya Joe,ajyou might say I was "gosling" ya Joe, but you already cooked my "goose!" ...
Joe_Fusco_ | Oct 11, 2000 03:46am | #20
*Ton-ah,

Same dodecagon. . . The difference is Ken adds 25", I just rotate mine 15°. You're a genius, what do you think is better/easier, making useless work for yourself or cutting all the rafters the same?Hand placed firmly on the "ignite" button. . . Liking the smell of burnt goose!

View Image © 1999-2000"The first step towards vice is to shroud innocent actions in mystery, and whoever likes to conceal something sooner or later has reason to conceal it." Aristotle
Joe_Fusco_ | Oct 11, 2000 03:56am | #21
*Ton-ah,

BTW I just followed the directions. 30° increments and two hips, yeah that's it. . . I feel a "B" word coming on. . .

View Image © 1999-2000"The first step towards vice is to shroud innocent actions in mystery, and whoever likes to conceal something sooner or later has reason to conceal it." Aristotle
Ken_Drake | Oct 11, 2000 03:57am | #22
*Joe,You know better than that. How can a hip rafter and a common rafter of a REGULAR polygon have exactly the same pitch?Answer?They can't.What you have rendered in CAD is not a regular polygon, and does not turn in 3 equal 30 degree corners. (Actually, yours has 4 turns).If you take the time to draw it in plan view, you'll see what I mean.It's impossible for the roof sections that youshow to have the same pitch, just as impossible for the hip rafter to have the same pitch as a common rafter in a regular polygon.So what's your point? Anybody can draw IRREGULAR polygons, or sections of them, Joe. As I said in my last post, just draw a bunch of lines that go to the same point. lOOKS GOOD ON PAPER. The very fact that the hip rafters farthest to the left and to the right have the same pitch as the common rafters on one side but obviously not on the other should have tipped you off.I'm not saying that you couldn't frame such an animal, but why would you want Mike or anyone else who comes here for help to get into double pitch irregular hips, unequal overhangs on the tails, and all the other bullsh*t that occurs in split pitch roof framing, when a single pitch alternative is available?Ken
Joe_Fusco_ | Oct 11, 2000 04:01am | #23
*Dear Ken,

Bullshit!

View Image © 1999-2000"The first step towards vice is to shroud innocent actions in mystery, and whoever likes to conceal something sooner or later has reason to conceal it." Aristotle
Joe_Fusco_ | Oct 11, 2000 04:15am | #24
*Ken,

Double Bullshit! I just love when you get the Bullshit going how your posts get longer and longer, LOL.

View Image © 1999-2000"The first step towards vice is to shroud innocent actions in mystery, and whoever likes to conceal something sooner or later has reason to conceal it." Aristotle
Joe_Fusco_ | Oct 11, 2000 04:32am | #25
*Ken,

Triple Bullshit!

View Image © 1999-2000"The first step towards vice is to shroud innocent actions in mystery, and whoever likes to conceal something sooner or later has reason to conceal it." Aristotle
blue_eyed_devil_ | Oct 11, 2000 05:00am | #26
*Oh, oh, Joe, I gotta tell you: I think Aj and Ken whupped your butt!Now, before you let this post degenerate into a child/child name calling game, try to present the things you are saying in a manner that the petitioner can use. Ken's number's appeared to be very precise, using the criteria given. He's assuming that the 8' run will be consistent because that's what was given. I believe your method would result in a different run on the hips. If the foundation was already in place, using the given 8' run, your method would result in a heel of lessor heights, an unlevel fascia.I've used your method many times on small bay roofs. It certainly pleases me to make the one pattern fit all, but I wouldn't go calling Mr. Math names about it.I know, more boring drivel,blue
The_Tennis_Court_Builder_...on_t | Oct 11, 2000 08:17am | #27
*Tried to help ya out with my first post...but if ya gonna swim by yourself, you're gonna go down by yourself...I can here my lobsters now..."Come to Poppa!" near the stream,ajb The shroud has fallen upon you Joe...And all the cursing is just exposing the innocent among us...conceal not your true nature as you post not to inform but to berate, and pontificate...You may now take your last steps...AristotleJack

Ken_Drake | Oct 11, 2000 12:01pm | #28
*Joe,What you are doing is cutting a pizza ( if you will ) into 12 pieces and then inserting 3 full pieces into the corner. What I'm doing is taking your 3 pieces, cutting one piece in half and inserting them into the corner so that there are 2 pieces in the middle and 1/2 piece on each side.Your method forces the two outside hips to be irregular hips and results in unequal roof pitches. This occurs because the two outer hips form a 90 degree angle with one plate and a 75 degree angle with the other, which will result in your "pizza" slices having more pitch than 4/12.Altho I'm using the same three "slices" as you, the manner in which I insert them eliminates this problem, and all slices of my pizza are 4/12.Here's a rough sketch of your roof plan. Notice than the RUN of a common rafter in pizza slice is less than 96", but the RISE, 32" remains the same, so the result is more pitch.I've got to go back to work today. The 4 day rain has stopped. So the place is all yours, fire away.Think I'll get a pizza for lunch.Ken

Joe_Fusco_ | Oct 11, 2000 12:42pm | #29
*Blue,

It appears that one again you've given your opinion on something you know nothing about. This becomes clear by your post.

View Image © 1999-2000"He who fights with monsters should look to it that he himself does not become a monster. And when you gaze long into an abyss the abyss also gazes into you." Friedrich W. Nietzsche

Joe_Fusco_ | Oct 11, 2000 12:50pm | #30
*Moe, Larry & Curly,

Yeah, that about sums it up. . .

View Image © 1999-2000"He who fights with monsters should look to it that he himself does not become a monster. And when you gaze long into an abyss the abyss also gazes into you." Friedrich W. Nietzsche

tool_shed | Oct 11, 2000 02:16pm | #31
*Has anybody ever used a "brake buddy" on vinyl siding? I need something to keep wide pieces of coil from wrinkling. Will this do the trick?

blue_eyed_devil_ | Oct 11, 2000 06:38pm | #32
*Joe, I readily admit when I have no clue. In this instance, I know a little bit about this. I calculated, layed out and cut my first unequal hip roof more than twenty years ago.I'm not sure you have twenty years experience.I've offered several reasons why your suggestion is flawed, yet you choose to attack the messenger without offering a counterpoint and explanation and clarify the situation.I take that as capitulation. I really didn't intend to start another silly cyber battle, I was simply trying to discuss a semi-complicated building situation, for the fun of it.I'd suggest you visit Alt.binaries.I.fight.about.anything.I'll make you a milkbone bet. I can calculate and cut that hip rafter faster than you can set up those blocks and strings!blue

blue_eyed_devil_ | Oct 11, 2000 06:40pm | #33
*Ken, obviously you don't know what you are talking bout too. That is exactly what I was saying to him.blue

Joe_Fusco_ | Oct 11, 2000 11:04pm | #34
*Blue,

I'm 40, been doing this since I'm 23, you're a genius do the math.I cut my first roof 15 years ago. . . Do you have a point?Every reason you gave is flawed because you have no idea what you are talking about.More copulation may relieve your desire to psychoanalyze.No need to visit any other site, the three stooges hang here.If I smash you're calculator your screwed. . . If I don't, You might, but mine will definitely fit better.Are you done being a bozo and do you really want answer about this roof?

View Image © 1999-2000"He who fights with monsters should look to it that he himself does not become a monster. And when you gaze long into an abyss the abyss also gazes into you." Friedrich W. Nietzsche

The_Tennis_Court_Builder_...on_t | Oct 11, 2000 11:09pm | #35
*?

Mr._Pita | Oct 11, 2000 11:22pm | #36
*Joe, I'll be the first to admit I don't know what I'm talking about. But having said that, could you kindly illustrate why Blue doesn't know what he's talking about? I mean specific, pointed examples. You have some lovely sketches in this thread, but I don't recall seeing the math to back them up. Could you (as the nuns put it) 'show your work'? I could follow their (Ken's and Blue's) logic, but now can you show me how it's flawed, without the namecalling and blanket accusations?There is an old Chinese? proverb something like this:He who knows, and knows he knows, is a teacher; follow him.He who knows, and doesn't know he knows, is asleep; awake him.He who doesn't know, and knows he doesn't know, is a child; teach him.He who doesn't know, and doesn't know he doesn't know, is a fool; shun him.I guess in this case, I am a child and you claim to be a teacher.TIA, Mr. Pita

The_Tennis_Court_Builder_...on_t | Oct 11, 2000 11:54pm | #37
*Joe,When I said your roof would work, I didn't fill in the details that would be needed to make it work...Basically, the exterior supporting wall or beam would have to follow and arc to keep the soffet width the same and to keep the facia level...And all the rafters would have to be cut to the same length and run up to a single point...There would be no hip rafters though...It is a solution...but very different then Ken's...the originol post was asking for a multi-hip solution not part of a turret...Turrets and dodecagons...good unequal pitch hip...not so good.near the stream helping ya out Joe...aj

Joe_Fusco_ | Oct 12, 2000 12:19am | #38
*Ton-ah,

A hip is any member framed at a change of direction. That change in direction must move back towards the hips framing point making an outside corner. A Valley is just the opposite.

Original post. . ."I am building an 8' porch around my house and the corner will be in 30 degree increments. Can someone tell me how to figure the length of the two hip rafters? The common rafters will be 4/12 and I know a regular hip is 4/17"

Lets see now . . . 2 Hips at 30° increments. . . Yeah that answers the post! Now is there anything else you wish to show your ignorance about or do you wish to take it to new heights?

View Image © 1999-2000"He who fights with monsters should look to it that he himself does not become a monster. And when you gaze long into an abyss the abyss also gazes into you." Friedrich W. Nietzsche

Joe_Fusco_ | Oct 12, 2000 12:23am | #39
*Mr Pita,

I almost get the feeling like you wish to "task" me. Do you think you can handle it? Okay, lets find out.

View Image © 1999-2000"He who fights with monsters should look to it that he himself does not become a monster. And when you gaze long into an abyss the abyss also gazes into you." Friedrich W. Nietzsche

Mike_McNally | Oct 12, 2000 12:37am | #40
*Settle down fellas,The entire porch will will be curved in nature,roof matching deck.I cant fanthom how you could build a curved roof system over a deck that ended in a 90 degree turn and at the same time keep the soffits in line. Sorry for the misunderstanding.Mike

Joe_Fusco_ | Oct 12, 2000 12:47am | #41
*Mr Pita,

I'll try and keep it as simple as possible.The set of all dodecagons are congruent in angle (vertex angle) and similar.All dodecagons have a vertex angle of 150°All lines drawn from the center of any dodecagon to any vertex of that dodecagon are equal.Do you agree that the graphic below is a plan view of a dodecagon?

View Image © 1999-2000"He who fights with monsters should look to it that he himself does not become a monster. And when you gaze long into an abyss the abyss also gazes into you." Friedrich W. Nietzsche

Joe_Fusco_ | Oct 12, 2000 01:40am | #42
*Ken,

The difference is I'm creative and original in my thoughts you, well, are not. I used a dodecagon that is inscribe with the length of porch 8' and rotated it 15° realizing that doing so would make all the rafters, common and hip equal in length and produced a winner . You used a circumscribed dodecagon and went on pressing the buttons on your CM4.

View Image © 1999-2000"He who fights with monsters should look to it that he himself does not become a monster. And when you gaze long into an abyss the abyss also gazes into you." Friedrich W. Nietzsche

blue_eyed_devil_ | Oct 12, 2000 01:49am | #43
*Yes Joe, I have a point. You lashed out at my credentials because I happened to find a flaw with one of your suggestions. I took the time to point out several reasons why your suggestion wouldn't be the same as Ken's suggestion, and furthermore gave a good solid reason why it might screw the poor petitioner up if my theories were right.My defense about whether or not I know about these things is in the facts that #1) I attended a carpenter's school and specifically learned how to calculate these situations before you entered the field and #2) I have actually calculated, cut and installed these exact situations. Those facts would indicate to a reasonable man that I might have some idea about the situation.Only you can choose if you want to be a reasonable man, and discuss a tricky question like this in the spirit of enlightenment.If I'm wrong about my assertions, I'd be willing to send my tutor a huge pile of milkbones! I'm always thankful when I take another step in the right direction in my trade.Peace, brother,blue

blue_eyed_devil_ | Oct 12, 2000 01:53am | #44
*Thank you for those inciteful words of wisdom, AssitotalJack!blue"Well boil me over" said the sage, Popeye!

Joe_Fusco_ | Oct 12, 2000 02:05am | #45
*Blue,

"Only you can choose if you want to be a reasonable man, and discuss a tricky question like this in the spirit of enlightenment."

That's what you say now. . .

"Oh, oh, Joe, I gotta tell you: I think Aj and Ken whupped your butt!Now, before you let this post degenerate into a child/child name calling game, try to present the things you are saying in a manner that the petitioner can use."

That's how you began your journey down the road of enlightenment. Sounds like a lot of bullshit to me. Anytime you want to cut the bullshit and be a "reasonable man" I'm game. . . If not, it's no sweat of my block and string!

View Image © 1999-2000"He who fights with monsters should look to it that he himself does not become a monster. And when you gaze long into an abyss the abyss also gazes into you." Friedrich W. Nietzsche

Ken_Drake | Oct 12, 2000 03:07am | #46
*As I mentioned very early this morning, our 4 day rain event has finally come to an end and I returned to work today to cut yet another roof. I was surprised to return home and see so much bickering going on over this topic. A lot of people visit this site daily to learn something new, and instead, what they see is a lot of bitching, name calling, etc, with very little mathematical back up to support their ideas.I need to finish the roof I am cutting tomorrow and part of Friday, but over the weekend, I hope I have time to post some basic information re: polygon roof framing, regular and irregular hips,etc., that can help sort out some of this mess.Ken

Joe_Fusco_ | Oct 12, 2000 03:12am | #47
*Ken,

I'll be holding my breath. . .

View Image © 1999-2000"It is better to be feared. . . Then loved!" Machiavelli

The_Tennis_Court_Builder_...on_t | Oct 12, 2000 07:34am | #48
*"Hey Mr. Monster...monsters are looking...and see that ya still are clueless as to why your solution is whacked...Joe..we are becoming the monsters. And when you gaze long into an abyss the abyss also gazes into you."Friedrich W. Nietzsche

The_Tennis_Court_Builder_...on_t | Oct 12, 2000 07:40am | #49
*Joe...So now you know how post as others....Near the stream amazed at your progress...aj

blue_eyed_devil_ | Oct 12, 2000 11:13am | #50
*And please Joe, tell me what is so offensive about how I opened my conversation with you.Is telling you I think AJ and Ken whupping your butt so offensive? I just thought it was a humerous opening, a good natured jab. I did the same in the sysop debate. It's a small statement that clearly explains how I'm voting, on the debate that has raged so far.I would think a tradesman would have a little thicker skin about something so trivial.So, are you trying to tell me that your feelings were hurt by my opening salvo, and that you would have liked to discuss the topic in a mature manner, if only I would apologize?Well, Joe, I'm sorry if my opening coments were offensive to you. I will try to avoid being so abrasive now and in the future.Now. back to the topic.You have described a roof that uses a 4/12 hip rafter. That would dictate that the common rafters, which actually would be jack rafters, would be somewhat different than a 4/12 pitch.There is nothing inherrently wrong with that solution. But when you propose a solution that changes the criteria, you should be careful to point out the change in criteria, rather than to call another man a stooge for correctly giving the information as requested.Your solution might very well have been accepted as clever and efficient, but your message gets lost in the childlike sarcastic rhetoric.Still trying, blue

Ken_Drake | Oct 12, 2000 12:37pm | #51
*Joe,Both of the roof plans that we show are acceptable, and as you have seen, both of us are building the porch corner using exactly 1/4 of a regular dodecagon.The main difference between the two approaches is that you use two 15 degree turns and two 30 degree turns in your corner, which results in 2 regular hips ( the central ones ) and 2 irregular hips ( the outer ones ). The second difference is that in doing so, you force the 3 triangular shaped roof sections of the dodecagon to have a different pitch, 4 1/8/12.As Blue pointed out, if you framed the corner first, making your sections have a 4/12 pitch, this would force the common rafters that run along both sides of the house to have a pitch LESS THAN 4/12, a big price to pay. And still, even if someone were to take this arsbackward approach, the end result would still be 2 regular hips and 2 irregular hips.If you look at the roof plan that I attached in an earlier post, you can clearly see the difference. I also use exactly 1/4 of a dodecagon, but as a result of the manner in which I insert it, the result is 3 equal 30 degree corners, and 3 equal regular hips, and all roof sections will have the same pitch, 4/12 in Mike's example.I would like to mention once again, for the benefit of other readers of this thread, that there is nothing wrong with building the corner as Joe suggests. As a matter of fact, if there happened to be a door and perhaps a set of stairs at this outside corner, it would almost surely be centered, and an architect would almost surely draw it as Joe describes. Then framers like AJ, Blue, Joe, and myself, would build it this way, making adjustments for the problems that irregular hips present to us.When Mike first posted his request for help, I was sure he was not a "journeyman roof framer", and did not mention anything about a door at this corner, so I described a method that could be used that was predictable at every stage. All of the information I supplied him with regarding how to frame the hips and the commons would be the same for ANY roof pitch, forANY span at such a corner,right down to the little beveled hip blocks, so it was easy to convey to him the proper information.If you use an irregular hip approach as Joe suggested, the math and the cuts change with evey new pitch and span, causing the framing to be a more difficult task.

Joe_Fusco_ | Oct 12, 2000 12:40pm | #52
*Blue,

Once again you wish to psychoanalyze, and you want to talk about "childlike sarcastic rhetoric".You have a pack animal mentality and any phraseology will not conceal that. I refer to men the way their actions dictate.If you don't want to be a stooge, don't act like one. I didn't change the criteria, I viewed it from a different perspective. I also stated that very clearly. I would also guess that it's only okay for "other" to do that.I just respond it jabs with left hooks. Is that to "offensive" for you? If so, may be you need a thicker skin.The topic.

"You have described a roof that uses a 4/12 hip rafter. That would dictate that the common rafters, which actually would be jack rafters, would be somewhat different than a 4/12 pitch."

Those words say nothing. . . I use both common and hip rafters, they just have the same measurement. Does this concept elude you? You are just conditioned to think they have to be different in length, they don't. Where each is located determines what they are, not how long they might be. The use of the term "jack" is incorrect, all members go from ridge to plate in the graphic I posted. A "jack" is stopped short of either one or the other.

"There is nothing inherrently wrong with that solution. But when you propose a solution that changes the criteria, you should be careful to point out the change in criteria, rather than to call another man a stooge for correctly giving the information as requested.Your solution might very well have been accepted as clever and efficient, but your message gets lost in the childlike sarcastic rhetoric."

This has very little to do with the "topic", it's an opinion. There was no reason to introduce it into the topic discussion, that is of course only if you don't have a pack animal mentality.Anytime you wish to continue the "topic" and not the bullshit, let me know. . .

View Image © 1999-2000"By the time a man realizes that maybe his father was right, he usually has a son who thinks he's wrong." Charles Wadsworth

Joe_Fusco_ | Oct 12, 2000 12:50pm | #53
*Ken,

Thanks for the platitude, but I totally disagree with your assessment of how my suggestion effects the framing. There are no changes in pitch and no "irregular hips", each member is the same as any other member.If you do the math you'll see all are equal in both pitch and length. Simplicity!!

View Image © 1999-2000"By the time a man realizes that maybe his father was right, he usually has a son who thinks he's wrong." Charles Wadsworth

Mr._Pita | Oct 12, 2000 03:32pm | #54
*Now you've lost me completely. What do you mean, task you? I simply want you to explain your drawings. Ken and Blue explained things with sketches and math, and I tend to prefer math for understanding things - drawings can be misinterpreted sometimes.

Mr._Pita | Oct 12, 2000 03:59pm | #55
*OK, Joe, now I understand why I was confused. In post 13 Ken had a similar sketch. Ken's sketch was rotated 15 degrees, which I was not picking up on. Like I said above, drawings can be misinterpreted - especially when an object is rotated. Ken's math was based on an 8 foot measurement to the bisection of the flat of the dodecagon segment, where you were measuring 8 feet to the vertex.Also according to the original description from Mike, your plan is what he wants (and as far as I can see would work), where Ken modified the plan a bit. Thank you, and I hope you realize I was never attempting to ridicule or belittle you, just trying to learn...Peas

Roger_Martini | Oct 12, 2000 04:30pm | #56
*I almost hesitate to enter this discussion, but it seems to me that the root of the disagreement rests on an assumption regarding whether the drawing made by Joe is complete. That is, whether there is a need for additional rafters beyond those he has indicated at the vertices of the 1/4 dodecahedron. If Joe's drawing is complete, then all (both) hip rafters are indeed 4/12. Blue and Ken seem to be arguing for the requirement for some additional jack rafters which are implied but not present in Joe's drawing. They note the fact that Joe's approach makes building these problematic while Ken's does not.Joe, please do not regard this as being self-evident. More explanation is required.

The_Tennis_Court_Builder_...on_t | Oct 12, 2000 04:32pm | #57
*Two standard hips reversed into a gable roof entry is classic actually...Joe...you still can't see the iregular hip and steeper pitched jacks...They are there in your roof and are not in Ken's...Pita...you have a long way to go before you understand roofs...Keeping the facia from changing in irregular hips is not just cutting the wood and see how it all comes out...Things have to be modified for workable solutions.near the stream,aj

Ken_Drake | Oct 13, 2000 02:33am | #58
*Mr. Pita, Roger Martini,I've just returned home from work and checked in to see what was going on in this thread. Your posts, in particular, have caught my attention. If I may, Mr. Pita, I'll respond to your post first. In the second sentence of your post, you say " In post 13 Ken had a similar sketch. Ken's sketch was rotated 15 degrees, which I did not pick up on."The REAL question is, Mr. Pita, am I rotating Joe's sketch 15 degrees, or is he rotating mine 15 degrees? Shortly after that statement, you add, "Ken's math was based on an 8 foot measurement to the bisection of the flat of the dodecagon segment, where you were measuring 8 feet to the vertex." I think you're missing the point.Whenever you frame a structure that has REGULAR hips, ( hips that bisect the corner angles ) it GUARANTEES that the run to ANY side of the polygon will remain constant, in Mike's case, 8 feet.It wasn't that I "based my math on an 8 foot measurement to the bisection of the flat of the dodecagon segment", (as you put it). The run HAD TO TURN OUT TO BE 8 FEET because the hips were REGULAR hips in my roof plan, and guaranteed that this would happen.Roger Martini,In your first sentence, you say "it seems to me that the root of the disagreement rests on an assumption regarding whether the drawing made by Joe is complete"I don't agree with that statement at all. Joe has shown the essential features of his roof plan, as I did in mine.You follow this with "That is, whether there is a need for additional rafters beyond those he has indicated". I have no clue what you meant by that statement. It's your 3rd sentence that really gets my attention."If Joe's drawing is complete, then all (both) hip rafters are indeed 4/12."Roger, take another look at Joe's drawing. There are 4 corners, and therefore 4 hips, not two, as you imply, by saying "both hips". You are correct however, that all (4) of the hips in his drawing would have a 4/12 pitch, which essentially, the crux of this discussion.If the hip rafters have a 4/12 pitch, THEN WHAT IS THE PITCH OF A COMMON RAFTER? ( AS you know, the roof pitch is the pitch of a common rafter in any roof, NOT the hips)I'm sure from your framing experiences, you know that the common rafters would have to have more pitch than the hip rafters, since they have less RUN. What this all amounts to, is what I've been saying all along. It's impossible to frame the corner as Joe has suggested while keeping the roof pitches equal for all roof surfaces.And finally, in one of your last statements "Blue and Ken seem to be arguing for the requirement for some additional jack rafters which are implied but not present in Joe's drawing"Jack rafters have nothing to do with this at all. Whether Joe shows them in his roof plan, or I show them in mine, is moot. Jack rafters follow the roof plane of the section of the roof that they occur in, and have no bearing on this discussion whatsoever.

blue_eyed_devil_ | Oct 13, 2000 11:01am | #59
*Joe, Moooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo!I'm assuming that jack rafters, would at some stage, be used. Your drawing didn't show them.Your drawing shows the main roofs to be 4/12. Your hips are 4/12. If you cut all your jacks, at a 4/12, they would not work, as they turned the corner.It really is not a big deal. It does dictate that a different run be used for the "common" rafter at the turns. Baaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa!Blueps Are questions allowed? Pss Do you beat your wife, and have you ever beat your kids?

blue_eyed_devil_ | Oct 13, 2000 11:07am | #60
*Ken, you are absolutely right. I think I mentioned jack rafters to make the point that they would not be 4/12. That particular fact seems to be escaping into the atmosphere. Anyways, I'm sure anyone that has had experience with roofs will already have figured out this thread. blue

Joe_Fusco_ | Oct 13, 2000 12:35pm | #61
*

Thanks for proving my point. See that wasn't hard at all. . .P.S. The jacks work just fine and your statement only once again illustrates, quite well I might add, you have no idea what your talking about. Go build another crooked house. . .

View Image © 1999-2000"But, some people without brains do an awful lot of talking. . ." The ScareCrow

The_Tennis_Court_Builder_...on_t | Oct 13, 2000 01:41pm | #62
*Ken, and Blue...it does come down to experience verses armchair carpentry...Thanks for yours...Pita and others...go cut a roof!...then come back to this thread.near the stream,aj

Mr._Pita | Oct 13, 2000 03:15pm | #63
*AJ, Ken, Blue, I'd love to, but I won't have the opportunity to do so for quite some time. In the meantime, I believe you may have missed my first post on this thread.Forgive me for trying to learn from others' experiences...

The_Tennis_Court_Builder_...on_t | Oct 13, 2000 03:25pm | #64
*Pita...Do you understand the facia/soffett changes that happen when the roof pitch changes when framing irregular hip roofs?...That is the key point missed by many a carpenter till he starts to cut the rafters...experience and understanding are needed...besides an internet connection.near the stream,aj

Mike_Smith | Oct 13, 2000 03:29pm | #65
*geeesh.. aj.. and all this time i thought you were just another pretty face.....this usually comes home when you're framing your first baywindow with a hip roof...what a great learning experience.....

Ken_Drake | Oct 13, 2000 07:26pm | #66
*It appears that this discussion is winding down, but I still have some further information and scanned drawings that I would like to post here regarding polygon (polyhedron) framing that many of you will find interesting.My question. Is it possible to attach more than one file to a post? I assumed that it was since it says ATTACHMENTS, not ATTACHMENT.When I tried to attach a second file, it replaced the first one, so that the first one never appeared in my post.So, how do you do it computer geeks?Ken

Mr._Pita | Oct 13, 2000 07:33pm | #67
*Well, I just tried something and it didn't work. Sorry, and never mind...

Mr._Pita | Oct 13, 2000 07:45pm | #68
*Well, I can see this weekend I will have to sit down with a framing/roofing book and study it all, and then maybe a 3D program to model it... (I wish I could build it, even scale model, but not this weekend.)No, AJ, I can't understand how the soffit would need to change. I could understand that the framing members would need som tricky calculations, but so long as the members all come to the line of that 1/4 dodecahedron, the soffit should still come out to level and even.Experience - NOUnderstanding - not yetInternet connection - obviously But I'm trying...

The_Tennis_Court_Builder_...on_t | Oct 13, 2000 11:11pm | #69
*Pita....i "so long as the members all come to the line of that 1/4 dodecahedron, the soffit should still come out to level and even." b ...NOOOOOOTTTT!....near the stream,ajSo Pita...b Build the damn model, do the 3d cad or shut the f up...(just imitating Joe....I am trying to be nice!) I hope you are at least for rooting for the Yankees!

Joe_Fusco_ | Oct 14, 2000 02:08am | #70
*Ken, AJ & Blue aka The Three Stooges,

I often wonder if my approach to life is a bit cynical, but then again I remember that there are people like you in the world. Closed minded self-centered little men who's only lot is to conceal your petty existence in a cloak of compassion and goodwill when in reality it's just deceit and vitriol towards others. Nothing has convinced me more of this then this latest episode. You guys wonder why I call you jerks, bozo's and assholes? Well, because you are. . . Every nuance about you screams it load a clear. I would much rather be me then anything like you.I was going to post some harsh words, but why bother? You will still be jerks after my words just like they were jerks before my words. I'll just let the facts do the talking.This drawing clearly illustrates my points. There will be no need for any Al Gore like responses for Ken.The section in light orange to red shows that at the edge of the rafter plate, there is a uniform height meaning there is no problem with the fassica.The bluish section shows that all the area under the rafters is the same. The small hip jack is just the front section of the common rafter, which is the same as the hip rafter. Simply put, all rafters are the same. . . They have the same pitch, plumb cuts and birds month. The difference is in the hip jacks which are just cut short. You can use one template to cut all the rafters.Lastly, the yellow section shows that all the rafters in each section lay in the same plane.

View Image © 1999-2000"But, some people without brains do an awful lot of talking. . ." The ScareCrow

The_Tennis_Court_Builder_...on_t | Oct 14, 2000 03:11am | #71
*Cut the roof. Not possible with equal size soffet and facia in same plane through entire porch and hip areas...Jacks are at greater pitch in hip area..You flunk trig.near the stream,ajGet a mirror and bully it.

Ken_Drake | Oct 14, 2000 03:13am | #72
*One of the questions that Mike McNally has asked me to address, (by e-mail) is how to cut and install jack rafters in the regular dodecagon corner that he will frame.Assuming that we are at the point in the framing where the walls are up, plumbed and braced, the common rafters are in place, and the 3 regular hips have been cut and nailed in, ONE STRATEGY, for the two center sections, would be to nail in a block, 17 1/2" long, (long point to long point measurement), as shown in the attachment below. ( Open it and have a look before reading further)Since the regular hip rafters make a 75 degree angle with the wall plates in the two center sections, cutting a 15 degree bevel on the block at each end will allow it to fit in snuggly against the hip rafters as shown in the attachment.The purpose of cutting the block 17 1/2" long is to put the rafters 16" On Center, which isn't particularly important in this type of framing, but just so happens to work well in Mike's situation since the plate length in the center sections would be 51 7/16" I might add in passing at this point that this measurement is slightly larger than the one that Joe shows in his method, because of his requirement that the hip rafters have the same pitch and the same run as the common rafters.When setting the block, have a small level, called a torpedo level in your nail bag, to make sure that the blocks go in plumb. That way, when you make a PLUMB CUT on the jack rafters, you'll get a tight fit and they'll look good. (we all like tight fits and we like to look good)The top edges of the long point of the block should plane in with the edges of the hip rafter they are nailed to.Next step is go to the wall plate and find the center of the plate in the 2 middle sections. Measure out 7 1/4" from this center point and lay out for the two jack rafters. ( I usually do this before setting the hips )Now measure from the top edge of the block down to the plate to find the measurement for each jack. (If the block is not set perfectly parallel to the plate, you will find slight differences in the lengths. Not to worry, just cut them differently and install. This is not a piano we're building here.)In the two small side sections, you can use the same basic method, but cut the block square on one end ( that butts the common rafter) and 15 degree bevel on the other( that butts the hip), at an appropriate length. If you go back to the post where I showed the roof plan as an attachment, I think it will be obvious why.Do I cut and frame the jack rafters this way??Rarely. But it is a very good strategy. I'll explain an alternative method, which I normally use, in another post tomorrow.PS HI Mr. Pita, hope you're still with us and appreciate AJ's humor

Joe_Fusco_ | Oct 14, 2000 03:23am | #73
*

Your stupidity is boundless. You jerk, I did! It's in front of you. Will you always go through life with your head up your ass or do you just like you own stench? That is a real world model of that roof built in vector space.Just so you know, it's only going to get rougher. . .

View Image © 1999-2000"But, some people without brains do an awful lot of talking. . ." The ScareCrow

Mike_McNally | Oct 14, 2000 04:24am | #74
*Joe, Joe.If I am interpeting your sketch correctly I think you better brush up on your Trig. Remember we are talking about a 4/12 pitch with an 8' run or a rise of 18.42deg. You show a rise of 38.25" and at 18.42deg. This would result in a 9.57' run and a rafter length of 10.08' Something is wrong here.Mike

Joe_Fusco_ | Oct 14, 2000 04:33am | #75
*Mike, Mike, You trying to be funny?

If you have a 6-1/4" H.A.P. you need to add it your ridge height to keep your angle. Lets see 32 + 6.25= 38.25. You should have read my page, you wouldn't have made that mistake. Well, I'm sure you'll make many. . .

View Image © 1999-2000"The first step towards vice is to shroud innocent actions in mystery, and whoever likes to conceal something sooner or later has reason to conceal it." Aristotle

Mike_McNally | Oct 14, 2000 05:25am | #76
*Joe,I am building a 2800 s. ft home for myself and I am doing everything but part of the framing by myself. The reason I presented my question is because neither myself nor the fellow who is helping me frame are quite sure how to do the curved corner. I was looking for some technical info and Ken was the only one who was able to present it in verbage that I could understand backed up with the math. Anyone who cant understand his presentations shouldn't be in the business. I cant tell you how much of his spare time he has devoted to helping me. I will be forever greatful to him.The thing that bothers me is all the trash talk that has emerged, and I must say mostly by you. This is a technical forum not a place for character assassination and foul language. The open chat rooms are where one can revel in this type of behavior if he chooses to do so. I haven used the forum for some time now because of this type of behavior and I am sure many others have been turned off by it also. I know the Web master does not condone it. A little light jab in good taste is fine but not what I have witnessed over the past week.When you print out a post I am sure you will agree that the format has a bit to be desired. It is difficult enough to find the message without some philosophical quote intertwined. Why this has to be included in all of your messages is beyond me and I am sure, many others.It is almost like you have a book of quotes at your side and add one with each message.Do you do this every time you write something? I had 4 years of philosophy in college and I dont need any more now. I am in business and try to conduct myself in such a way. My communication philosophy is make it short, clear and to the point.Joe, I dont know you and I dont dislike you but I must say some of the scripts you have produced have a lot to be desired.I think many people have been turned off because of this. You are not alone, there have been others . What I would like to see is to have everyone get their act together and participate in the forum in a professional manner. After all dont we all consider ourselves professionals?I hope there are no hard feelings. I just felt it was time for someone to say something.Mike

Joe_Fusco_ | Oct 14, 2000 05:51am | #77
*Okay Pal,

So you're a bad framer, but a good psychoanalyst. . . Well analyze this. Who gives a shit! You post your wise crack, look like a jerk, get kicked in the teeth and then come back with that diatribe. You are funny. . . Hey, but what should I expect from the forth stooge.There is more "technical info" on the page I posted then you will get anywhere. Did you think I should have posted the numbers for you? I don't get my rocks-off pressing numbers on my CM4. I do that all day. You know I even e-mailed you, you didn't reply. You should have left it that way. I posted an excellent solution for your roof, one template one set of numbers. Now if you don't think that's good or you don't like it, that's fine, but spare me the drivel. So, how's the water?

View Image © 1999-2000"The first step towards vice is to shroud innocent actions in mystery, and whoever likes to conceal something sooner or later has reason to conceal it." Aristotle

blue_eyed_devil_ | Oct 14, 2000 12:29pm | #78
*Sorry Joe, just saying that I proved your point, doesn't actually mean I proved your point. Of course the jacks will work well, assuming you don't cut them on a 4/12!I'm on my way to build that next crooked house. And I'm hoping some day I can get an idea of what I'm talking about. I'm really depressed now, knowing that I've workied as a skilled trademan for almost 30 years and still don't have a clue. Sigh......If only I could tag along with you, for a couple of years, I'm sure I'd be able to sweep your sawdust.....bluePs If you never hear from me again it's because something serious has happened to me (self inflicted of course). I don't know how I'm going to be able to go on, now that you've exposed my ignorance to me, and most importantly to the entire world.Thanks for the enlightment.

blue_eyed_devil_ | Oct 14, 2000 12:40pm | #79
*Joe, thank you for some insight. I never could figure out why some plans that are computer generated, were drawn with features and figures that were impossible. I now know why. blue

blue_eyed_devil_ | Oct 14, 2000 01:06pm | #80
*Joe, I picked up a magazine called Healthy Living sent to me by my Blue Cross insurance company. Interestingly, inside was a topic called "Learning to Stop Blowing Your Top".One of the questions that it asked was: Do you get angry every time you drive a car? If you do, anger has become a habit. Try to put yourself in the other drivers' places.We don't drive cars in here, but we banter around different ideas. I don't remember being angry at any of your ideas. I don't even mind you telling me that I'm a dumb ass and don't know what I'm talking about. Oddly, I get slightly pertubed (angry) when I see you attacking Ken or Aj. The anger quickly subsides when I put my self in their place and I realize that they aren't getting angry either. The whole point of this is to warn you about you. You may not know it, but you are a very angry person. YOu don't have to be that way, it's a lifestyle choice. I used to be angry too. A few days in the hospital with false heart attack symptoms opened my eyes. Now I just laugh things off. Every one of your attempts to slam me, actually just made me laugh. All I could do is shake my head in amazement. If this were a face to face, I'd simply have walked away and left you to your angry diatribe, rather than to engage you. I'm not afraid of you, or anybody, I just don't waste my time with angry people anymore, for any reason. I am concerned for your family. I was actually surprised to see that you had a family when I opened a pic in a differnt thread a few months ago. I actually thought that you were a very young talented carpenter, maybe someone as young as 23 or 23. I suppose I projected my angry age, onto you, by the way you normally post. Anyways, heres a link that you might pursue. Even if you don't want to do it for yourself, do it for your family, I'm sure you love them very much and they need this too.http://www.angermgmt.com/I'm 100 times happier now because I got control of my anger and broke the habit. A lot of credit goes to my ex partner Forrest who taught me how to laugh at myself. He's the one that gave me my Boogerin' Degree.Send me an email if you want. sincerely,blue

Joe_Fusco_ | Oct 14, 2000 02:27pm | #81
*Blue,

Okay, I've put up much to support my position. You on the other have produced drivel to the nth degree. Maybe if you keep at your present position in 30 more years you might be good at psychoanalyzing. . . and come to think of it, framing.Here's an idea why don't you show me without words why you're right and I'm wrong.

View Image © 1999-2000"The first step towards vice is to shroud innocent actions in mystery, and whoever likes to conceal something sooner or later has reason to conceal it." Aristotle

Joe_Fusco_ | Oct 14, 2000 02:28pm | #82
*Blue,

Babble. . .

View Image © 1999-2000"The first step towards vice is to shroud innocent actions in mystery, and whoever likes to conceal something sooner or later has reason to conceal it." Aristotle

Joe_Fusco_ | Oct 14, 2000 02:30pm | #83
*Blue,

A Whole Lot Of Babble. . . As time goes on you seem to be getting better at it. To bad I can't say the same for your understanding of roof structures. . .

View Image © 1999-2000"The first step towards vice is to shroud innocent actions in mystery, and whoever likes to conceal something sooner or later has reason to conceal it." Aristotle

Ken_Drake | Oct 14, 2000 03:21pm | #84
*Good MorningYesterday I posted, along with an attachment, one method for adding jack rafters to a hip rafter when the cut on the jack rafter is greater than 45 degrees. By doing it in the way I suggested, the need to make any cuts beyond 45 degrees is eliminated.There is another method that I am more inclined to use, as shown in the attachment below. (Open the attachment to see the diagram).Look at the jack rafter on the left. It's very time consuming to make the very long 75 degree bevel cut at the top of the jack rafter to leave the 15 degree angle on it, altho it certainly can be done if required. An exception of course, would be if the rafters were exposed, but,in custom home framing, this is very seldom the case.A second strategy is shown on the jack rafter on the right. Start by drawing a 4/12 plumb line on the rafter a few inches from the top and make a cut on the plumb line as you normally would, with the saw bevel tilted to only 15 degrees.Now, lay the rafter flat on your saw horses with the short point of the 15 degree bevel cut facing up, and draw a line down the center of this cut (running parallel to the plumb cut)from top to bottom.Set your saw bevel back to zero, and cut along this line to achieve the second cut as shown. Because you are creating only half of the cheek cut, your circular saw, set to full depth will get thru most of the cut, depending on whether you are using a 7 1/4" or 8 1/4" saw. If necessary, you can quickly finish the cut with a hand saw, or cheat the plumb line closer to the long point of the 15 degree bevel cut before making the second cut to achieve the cut in a single pass. Since 90 - 15 = 75, the resulting second cut should fit nicely against the hip so that you can nail it properly as you would for "normal" jack rafters in a regular hip roof. It will look good also, both to you, and to anyone else. I know there are many framers out there who would simply put a square plumb cut at the top and just nail it up. I never do that. In does't look very good at all, and more importantly, the result is not as structurally sound, but I really don't want to get into that discussion in this thread, so please spare me.

Joe_Fusco_ | Oct 14, 2000 03:59pm | #85
*Blue, Ken, Ton-ah & Mike,

View Image © 1999-2000"The first step towards vice is to shroud innocent actions in mystery, and whoever likes to conceal something sooner or later has reason to conceal it." Aristotle

Joe_Fusco_ | Oct 14, 2000 04:01pm | #86
*Blue, Ken, Ton-ah & Mike,

View Image © 1999-2000"The first step towards vice is to shroud innocent actions in mystery, and whoever likes to conceal something sooner or later has reason to conceal it." Aristotle

Mike_McNally | Oct 14, 2000 04:03pm | #87
*Ken. Just reviewed your first method and as usual it is very simple and easy to understand. I did have a question on the post and sketch where the common dies at the pony wall. You mentioned the reason for this was so the 3/4" overhang would not interfere with the gable soffit. In trying to visualize this I would think that at least the second and third commons along the gable end would extend over the main roof plain and have nothing to die against. I mentioned, I am not a framer but have built some extensive projects in the past including a 2000 sq ft barn workshop, two personal cottages, one in the ADK's and one in Northern Canada,the latter being 20 miles by water into the bush.Mike

Ken_Drake | Oct 14, 2000 04:49pm | #88
*Mike, Normally at the gable ends, I put a common rafter at the very end of the building and then notch it for 2x4 lookouts to help support the fascia. My concern was, when you return the soffit to the gable end, it could possibly butt against the 4/12 rafter which would be hanging over 3/4" if it were allowed to run all the way to the top, as the others. So it would be better to install the end rafter in 2 peices, breaking it at the pony wall and moving the top part over 3/4" to flush it up with the framing, even if you didn't.It probably wouldn't be a problem. I'll go over this further via e-mail with you.

The_Tennis_Court_Builder_...on_t | Oct 14, 2000 06:49pm | #89
*My email program will not send after last MS auto update....Thanks for the mail...Will be repaired soon...near the lake for a boat ride today...Indian Summer!ajMulti attachments...Maybe post single attachments and reply to your own post as a running dialog...ala blue and Mike...Joe might know...Joe?

The_Tennis_Court_Builder_...on_t | Oct 14, 2000 06:54pm | #90
*We love you Joe....Keep smiling buddy...We are in the same trade partner...I'm friends with all the competition up my way....Lets try a new game plan different then, "Jane, you ignorant slut!"...Just differing with trade buddies, near the stream,aj

Joe_Fusco_ | Oct 14, 2000 08:24pm | #91
*Blue, Ken, Ton-ah (we lov ya) & Mike (technical info),

d = sqrt((x2-x1)2 + (y2-y1)2 + (z2-z1)2)

View Image © 1999-2000"The first step towards vice is to shroud innocent actions in mystery, and whoever likes to conceal something sooner or later has reason to conceal it." Aristotle

Mike_McNally | Oct 14, 2000 09:10pm | #92
*Joe,Lets let the past be a prologue to a lesson for all of us. I have used your posts in the past many times and find them very useful, especially the one on general roof framing. In fact I am going to pass it on to some people who can use it.You are obviously a very knowledgable person who is willing to share with others, something you dont find very often today. I hope there are no hard feelings. believe me, I have none.Keep the info coming and we will all be better at what we do. None of us knows everything about what we do and at times I have to admit that I find myself thinking I know more than I really do. When I realize this I put the breaks on and reassess myself and believe me its not easy at times. As ever,Mike

Joe_Fusco_ | Oct 14, 2000 09:56pm | #93
*Mike,

Platitude and placation.Men pride themselves on knowing when their "chain" is being jerked. . .suffice it to say fair enough.Good luck on building your roof.

View Image © 1999-2000"The first step towards vice is to shroud innocent actions in mystery, and whoever likes to conceal something sooner or later has reason to conceal it." Aristotle

Joe_Fusco_ | Oct 14, 2000 10:00pm | #94
*Blue, Ken & Ton-ah (we lov ya), View Image © 1999-2000"The first step towards vice is to shroud innocent actions in mystery, and whoever likes to conceal something sooner or later has reason to conceal it." Aristotle

Ken_Drake | Oct 14, 2000 11:12pm | #95
*Joe, I'm not sure why you are bombarding this thread with CAD sketches, but you must have a reason for doing so. Generally speaking, we use sketches in the field of mathematics to help visualize a problem, organize our thoughts, as well as to demonstrate the problem to others. Drawings and sketches are very helpful, but they don't PROVE anything. They're just pictures, similar to the one of your dodecagon in post #78. As I say, that sketch that you have there, along with all of the others that preceed it, prove absolutely nothing.It's a rather juvenile approach that you are taking to suggest that we look at a picture, and conclude that "Every roof member angle is 18.42 degrees" and that "Simply put, all rafters are the same...they have the same pitch, plumb cuts and birds mouth...you can use one template to cut all the rafters." It certainly would be nice if things worked that way, BUT THEY DON'T. What you are doing is allowing yourself to be deceived by your own drawing, and you would have us do the same.When you "inserted" the 3 sections, or 1/4 of the dodecagon into Mike's porch corner, to make it fit, you had to make the hip rafters identical in length, and pitch, to the already existing common porch rafters. As a result, you created 2 irregular hips, which results in each of the 3 sections of the dodecagon having more than a 4/12 pitch ( a little more than 4 1/8/12)Look at the 2 hips that you have in the center section. Since they make equal 75 degree angles with the plates on both sides of each hip, they are regular hips. And whether they occur in a dodecagon, an octagon, a rectangle, or whatever, they will always have less pitch than the common and jack rafters in that section. That must be obvious to you, and something you certainly should know at this point in your career. I'm attaching a series of sketches that are based on sound fundamental math, not just pretty pictures with lots of colors. Open it if you will.The top right sketch is a 3D view representing a 4/12 common rafter, and the regular hip rafter that bisects the corner angle. As you see, and as you very well know, the run of the hip rafter is just under 17, which is why we cut regular hips at 90 degree corners with 17 on the body of the framing square. It definitely has a different (less) pitch than the commons.Below the rectangle is a sketch of a portion of a regular octagon. In this case, if the run of the common rafter is 12, then the run of the regular hip turns out to be 13, which is why we cut regular octagon hips using 13 on the body, not 17. Once again, the hip has less pitch than the common and jack rafters.Finally, at top right is a sketch of a portion of a regular dodecagon. If the run of a common is 12, then the run of a regular hip would be 12 7/16, which would be the setting on the body of a framing square for cutting the regular hip rafters of the dodecagon.This is EXACTLY WHAT YOU ARE SHOWING in your CAD sketches at the center of the porch corner. The mathemtics clearly demonstrates that your statements suggesting that all rafters in your sketch have the same pitch, cannot possibly be true.

Joe_Fusco_ | Oct 14, 2000 11:27pm | #96
*Ken,

You claim to be a math wiz, you should know everyone. . . there real common. . .If you don't know what any of them are, then shut up and you can't play. P.S. that's a bozo sketch you posted and the post was way to long. . .

View Image © 1999-2000"The first step towards vice is to shroud innocent actions in mystery, and whoever likes to conceal something sooner or later has reason to conceal it." Aristotle

Joe_Fusco_ | Oct 14, 2000 11:39pm | #97
*Moe,

I just can't help myself. . .

"Look at the 2 hips that you have in the center section. Since they make equal 75 degree angles with the plates on both sides of each hip, they are regular hips. And whether they occur in a dodecagon, an octagon, a rectangle, or whatever, they will always have less pitch than the common and jack rafters in that section. That must be obvious to you, and something you certainly should know at this point in your career."

I guess you have to get off the chair to speak, how else could anyone hear you? The chair would muffle you. . .It's sad to think that you can pollute peoples minds with this dogma. . . The "Ken" reality of plane geometry. Don't you see it? I did, the minute I looked at it. I guess you're just to full of yourself or too stupid to see it. This might help.

View Image © 1999-2000"The first step towards vice is to shroud innocent actions in mystery, and whoever likes to conceal something sooner or later has reason to conceal it." Aristotle

Joe_Fusco_ | Oct 15, 2000 12:08am | #98
*Moe,

I still can't help myself. . .

"It's a rather juvenile approach that you are taking to suggest that we look at a picture, and conclude that "Every roof member angle is 18.42 degrees" and that "Simply put, all rafters are the same...they have the same pitch, plumb cuts and birds mouth...you can use one template to cut all the rafters." It certainly would be nice if things worked that way, BUT THEY DON'T. What you are doing is allowing yourself to be deceived by your own drawing, and you would have us do the same. "

Okay Mister Wizard. . .If the length of Mister Technical info's porch is 8' in plan and in inscribed dodecagon is 8', from center to all vertex's in plan and three sections will turn 90° in plan how did you come up with those bozo numbers?Question, Mister Wizard. . . If something is equal in length in plan are they equal in length in plan? (no you read it right) Now if my hip rafters, anyone you like regular or irregular are equal to my common rafters in plan are they equal? Now here's the good part. . . Draw me a plan of a 90° hip roof and make the common and hip equal in plan. . . Good luck bozo. . . LOL,LOL,LOL.

Do you see it yet????? View Image © 1999-2000"You clinking, clanking, clattering collection of collagenase junk!" The Wizard

blue_eyed_devil_ | Oct 15, 2000 12:45am | #99
*Ken, I commend you for that very excellent jack cutting tip. I use the same method, doing it freehand, and eliminate the first 15 degree cut, but would highly recomend your idea to rookies, and dabblers!Here's a pic of me whacking one freehand. Notice that I'm just barely getting that blade to come through at the bottom of the cut. An 81/4" saw would get me a little more depth, but it's not needed.blue

blue_eyed_devil_ | Oct 15, 2000 12:59am | #100
*I see Joe, you are taking some advice and setting some new parameters for your solution. Nice job.The roof run in your explanation is now less than 8' in the segments. Agreed?blue

blue_eyed_devil_ | Oct 15, 2000 01:11am | #101
*Joe, go to http://www.angermgnt.com for my reply.blue

Joe_Fusco_ | Oct 15, 2000 01:22am | #102
*Blue,

Sorry, I still have no idea what your are talking about and it could be because you have no idea what you're talking about. . .Here's the plan all lines equal 8' except for the lines between each vertex. The roof is a 4/12. Using only center line construction and no H.A.P requirement lets work it out together. . . Run= 8' or 96"top of ridge = (4 x 8) =32"Common rafter length = (962+322) = (9216 + 1024) = sqrt(10240)= 101.20" or 8'-5 3/16"Hip run in plan = 8' or 96"top of ridge = (4 x 8) =32"Hip rafter length = (962+322) = (9216 + 1024) = sqrt(10240)= 101.20" or 8'-5 3/16". Well would you look at that. . .Jack is the same as common just stops at hip or valley so you cut it from a common which is the same as a hip. Holy shit look at that!!!

View Image © 1999-2000"You clinking, clanking, clattering collection of collagenase junk!" The Wizard

Joe_Fusco_ | Oct 15, 2000 01:25am | #103
*Blue,

I'll be right there. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .

View Image © 1999-2000"You clinking, clanking, clattering collection of collagenase junk!" The Wizard

blue_eyed_devil_ | Oct 15, 2000 01:29am | #104
*Okay, Joe, you've agreed that the run in your roof is 8'. So why are you showing me the run of a hip? I haven't asked about the run of a hip yet. Please show me a drawing with the run of the roof at 8'.blue

Joe_Fusco_ | Oct 15, 2000 01:48am | #105
*Blue,

Are you playing games? All the info you need is there. But I'm willing to listen. . . .

View Image © 1999-2000"You clinking, clanking, clattering collection of collagenase junk!" The Wizard

Ken_Drake | Oct 15, 2000 02:00am | #106
*Joe,Post your drawing in post #106 and show a common rafter in one of the sections of the dodecagon. If you do, you'll see that the run of that common will be 92 3/4". ( 96 x sine 75degrees). It doesn't matter which section you draw it in. You'll get the same result. See my attachment below, I'll save you the trouble.Since the rise will be the same as for the hip, 32", the pitch of the common, which is the pitch of the dodecagon roof, will be 32/92.75 = .3450.3450x12=4.14 or about 4 1/8Therefore, all three sections of your dodecagon have a roof pitch of 4 1/8/12

Joe_Fusco_ | Oct 15, 2000 02:03am | #107
*Moe,

Answer my previous questions or get lost. . .

View Image © 1999-2000"You clinking, clanking, clattering collection of collagenase junk!" The Wizard

blue_eyed_devil_ | Oct 15, 2000 02:16am | #108
*Please Joe I repeat:Okay, Joe, you've agreed that the run in your roof is 8'. So why are you showing me the run of a hip? I haven't asked about the run of a hip yet. Please show me a drawing with the run of the roof at 8'. blue

Ken_Drake | Oct 15, 2000 02:32am | #109
*Joe, There was a point in time in this thread, when both Blue and I mentioned that there was nothing inherently wrong with framing the corner in the way you show. That's still true. It results in 4 hips, (2 regular,2 irregular) and requires the roof pitch of the 3 sections of the dodecagon to be somewhat larger, but that really is no big deal for an experienced framer. If you just would have let it go at that point we wouldn't be having this discussion, but you continue to insist that all of the sections of the roof will have the same pitch, and that is not possible. If you want that to happen, then frame in as I show in the attachment below. NOTICE, please, that all 3 hips make equal 75 degree angles with the plates, and that the run of a common rafter can be held constant at 8' as you turn the corner in each section. Sincerely Moe

Joe_Fusco_ | Oct 15, 2000 02:46am | #110
*Blue,

What is it that you want? I don't know what this means "Please show me a drawing with the run of the roof at 8'." What do you want me to draw you a picture???? Draw your own damn picture or get Moe to draw one for you.

View Image © 1999-2000"You clinking, clanking, clattering collection of collagenase junk!" The Wizard

Ken_Drake | Oct 15, 2000 02:50am | #111
*Joe,I did draw one. It's in post #114Moe

blue_eyed_devil_ | Oct 15, 2000 02:52am | #112
*Ken, I agree, but I'm still baffled as to why this isn't easily grasped and settled. I am waiting to find out how much run Joe is figuring to use on his theoretical commons. He's only willing to show what the run of his hips are. blue

Joe_Fusco_ | Oct 15, 2000 02:59am | #113
*Moe,

Your posts are so long that by the time I get done reading them you are talking about stuff I never said or mentioned. My contention is the same now as it was in post #16. Framing this roof by using an inscribed dodecagon rotated 15° will give you the same cut rafter for the common of the straight roof and the hips of the dodecagon, just like I said in post #16. You want to dispute that?

View Image © 1999-2000"You clinking, clanking, clattering collection of collagenase junk!" The Wizard

Ken_Drake | Oct 15, 2000 03:01am | #114
*Blue, I think the light will come on eventually.BTW, thanks for posting that picture of you cutting the "severe" angle on the jack using a method similar to mine. I've done it that way also but I prefer to lay them flat on the saw horses, especially when they're long. I cut roofs for a living these days, and some of the jack rafters, can exceed 25 feet or more. The reason I cut the complimentary angle ( 15 degrees in this case) first, is because when you lay it flat, the ckeek cut faces up at you, making it easy to see the line for the next cut.Moe

Joe_Fusco_ | Oct 15, 2000 03:03am | #115
*Blue,

You had a few beers tonight? I posted the numbers for run of straight roof and hip of dodecagon,sooooo once again what are you talking about?

View Image © 1999-2000"You clinking, clanking, clattering collection of collagenase junk!" The Wizard

blue_eyed_devil_ | Oct 15, 2000 03:04am | #116
*Well Joe, if you have a house that is a hip, and it is 20 feet wide and 100 feet long, all 5/12 roof, what is the run of the roof?In my neck of the woods, it is a ten foot run.The run of the roof is the term which describes the run of the common rafters. You are showing me a picture of a drawing that shows the run of the hip at 8'. I understand that. Now, please tell me what the run of the common would be. In my 20 x 100 example, the run of the hip would be 169.7", and the run of the roof would be 10'.Fill in the blanks:The the run of my hips are_____________ , and the run of my roof is________________ .After those blanks are filled in, the mystery will be solved!sleuth blueps I love a great mystery. Columbo was my favorite (his old stuff).

Ken_Drake | Oct 15, 2000 03:05am | #117
*Joe,No. I don't want to dispute that. The roof plan that you show REQUIRES you to cut the hip rafters at the same pitch and length as the existing common rafters.My point, as I said before, is with your post #78, where you insist that all rafters in the roof can be cut at the same pitch using the same template.

Joe_Fusco_ | Oct 15, 2000 03:08am | #118
*Blue,

You're really kidding with this reply right? The run is one leg of a right triangle.

View Image © 1999-2000"You clinking, clanking, clattering collection of collagenase junk!" The Wizard

Ken_Drake | Oct 15, 2000 03:11am | #119
*Joe,That's correct, and in your roof plan, it's 92 3/4",which is why the common rafter has a different pitch than the hip.Moe

blue_eyed_devil_ | Oct 15, 2000 03:13am | #120
*I have a roof to cut myself, and I see the longest damn rafters that I've ever looked at. I didn't think that trees grew that tall!I certainly will treat each situation as needed and will keep your little trick up my sleeves!I'd love to see you do a "Cuttin' roofs with Moe" thread.blueps Breaclones alert! Cmon' guys, beg him to do one!

Mike_McNally | Oct 15, 2000 03:14am | #121
*Guys' Isnt one of the problems with Joe's theory the fact that the first turn is a full 30 deg and the second and third are bisected by the middle hips resulting in 15 deg on each side and the 4th again is a full 30 deg turn. I would think that this would result in two irregular hips on the outside of the poly. If I remember correctly this is what happened when I roofed my one and only bay window years ago. By extending the sides 15deg before the turn starts eliminates this problem as shown in Kens sketch. I would think the three hips would be designed using common degree turns. As I said in the past I am a rookie at this.Mike

Ken_Drake | Oct 15, 2000 03:16am | #122
*Blue,The longest stock we get down here normally is 28'(doug fir)They're a pain in the ass to move around but at least you don't have to spliceMoe

blue_eyed_devil_ | Oct 15, 2000 03:17am | #123
*Joe, I'm not kidding. I don't want formulas or explanations, I just want the number.Sherlock Blue

Joe_Fusco_ | Oct 15, 2000 03:18am | #124
*Ken,

Great, that's all you had to say the first time and not post #19. which was bullshit by the way. . . I didn't say what you said, I said the main roof common and the dodecagon hip. Not the common and hip of a regular polygon. I know you'll feel much better now that we've cleared that up!Anytime you wish to apologize, I'd be more then happy to accept!

View Image © 1999-2000

blue_eyed_devil_ | Oct 15, 2000 03:20am | #125
*I'm heading for the beer right now joe, and maybe a pull or two on my smokes.I want those numbers though.Inspector gadget Blue

Ken_Drake | Oct 15, 2000 03:20am | #126
*Mike,Actually you've got it turned around a little.His first and last turn are 15 degrees, and the middle ones ar 30 degrees. The fact that the outer ones run perpendicular to the plates on one side and then turn 15 degrees to form an angle of 75 degrees with the other, creates an irregular hip situation.Moe

blue_eyed_devil_ | Oct 15, 2000 03:23am | #127
*28 feet is absurd!. I'd rather wrestle an intermediate support system.I know I saw some 26 footers. I'm crazy for doing this job!So, are you gonna do a Cuttin' a Roof with Ken, err I mean Moe thread?blue

Ken_Drake | Oct 15, 2000 03:25am | #128
*Joe,Then read your post #78Moe

Joe_Fusco_ | Oct 15, 2000 03:27am | #129
*Mike,

There are no problem with my theories because there not. There fact. My statement was a simple one, you could frame the common rafters of the main roof and the hip rafters of the dodecagon with the same rafter, and that you most certainly can do.

View Image © 1999-2000

Ken_Drake | Oct 15, 2000 03:29am | #130
*Blue,Those were quick smokes. What are you doing, eating them?Anyway, we often do the intermediate support system as you said. But there are times when it is impractical to do so."Cuttin with Ken" is in the works. I'm sure Joe will be thrilled.

blue_eyed_devil_ | Oct 15, 2000 03:31am | #131
*I really haven't studied any of those sketches, nor analyzed any of Joe's assertions when he addressed them to you Ken. In fact, since I walked out my hs trig class after the first week (I couln't understand anything the teacher was saying from the first ten minutes), I've never bothered to try to understand. I don't know what secants, dodegrams, or anything like that is. I do understand basic geometry and that's all that neeeded for this problem. It's so simple, yet so complicated.Anyways, I have the feeling that someone is going to be gorging on his words.Thanks for carrying the ball, now promise us about that Cuttin' roofs thread...blue

Ken_Drake | Oct 15, 2000 03:35am | #132
*Blue,I consider that a big compliment, coming from you. I've enjoyed, and respected your posts. It's just sad that you, AJ, Mike McNally, and myself, don't have more time to discuss these matters, due to the amount of time necessary to keep the 4 STOOGE CLUB in operation.Moe

Joe_Fusco_ | Oct 15, 2000 03:40am | #133
*Ken,

Good luck. I'm sure for anyone who doesn't know better it will be a good read.The race in life isn't always to the swiftest, best, or smartest. It usually goes to the most prolific bullshit artist. . . and you sure have my vote.

View Image © 1999-2000"The first step towards vice is to shroud innocent actions in mystery, and whoever likes to conceal something sooner or later has reason to conceal it." Aristotle

blue_eyed_devil_ | Oct 15, 2000 03:43am | #134
*I refuse to accept Mike into the stooge club. He doesn't know enough and he has to earn his title. what would we be doing anyways if this thread wasn't amusing us?I'll be watchi' with interest about that cuttin thread. Too bad it won't happen before I attack the pile. I haven't had to stare at a huge pile like this since 1986 or so. I'm not looking forward to the challenge, but there won't be much else for me to do.Incidently, I had to chuckle when Frank mentioned that he didn't have a roof framing plan yet. He was gonna ask the builder for one. Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahhaa!blue

blue_eyed_devil_ | Oct 15, 2000 03:44am | #135
*Wheres the numbers Joe?blue

Joe_Fusco_ | Oct 15, 2000 03:45am | #136
*Moe,

Well after having to reset my preferences to find post #78 this is what I got.

View Image © 1999-2000"The first step towards vice is to shroud innocent actions in mystery, and whoever likes to conceal something sooner or later has reason to conceal it." Aristotle

Ken_Drake | Oct 15, 2000 03:45am | #137
*Joe,Of course those people seeking out the good read could go into your personal website as an alternative and learn how to frame roofs as they were framed in the DARK AGES.

blue_eyed_devil_ | Oct 15, 2000 03:46am | #138
*C'mon Joe, the numbers....blue

Joe_Fusco_ | Oct 15, 2000 03:46am | #139
*Blue,

You're whacked. . .

View Image © 1999-2000"The first step towards vice is to shroud innocent actions in mystery, and whoever likes to conceal something sooner or later has reason to conceal it." Aristotle

blue_eyed_devil_ | Oct 15, 2000 03:47am | #140
*Joe the numbers or say "Uncle"!that was a good smoke!blue

Joe_Fusco_ | Oct 15, 2000 03:50am | #141
*Moe,

Your light go out when the battery in the CM4 dies. . . LOL!

View Image © 1999-2000"The first step towards vice is to shroud innocent actions in mystery, and whoever likes to conceal something sooner or later has reason to conceal it." Aristotle

Mike_McNally | Oct 15, 2000 03:50am | #142
*Ken, I hope you are serious about "Cuttin with Ken" Boy there sure is a lot of shit involved with this roof stuff and am I ever learning. It is a shame this will be a one time shot with me.Now I know why there are not many roofs out there like the one I want and in fact I have only seen one in the entire area where I live.

Ken_Drake | Oct 15, 2000 03:53am | #143
*Blue,I missed the post by Frank? What number was it?Please reconsider accepting Mike into the 4 STOOGE CLUB. He's not as young as he used to be, so could we make an exception? Please check the Club Rules to see if there is some way we can get around his lack of experience and time in the field. Seems like a really nice guy.

Ken_Drake | Oct 15, 2000 03:58am | #144
*Mike,Thanks for the compliment . I'm not sure how feasible it would be tho. This one thread is so time consuming. What would I do with about 4oo of them?I think a book is the answer, and I've already developed the material. It's just a matter of taking the next step. I think I need a manager to kick me in the butt and get it done.First copy goes to Joe. He'll be thrilledMoe

blue_eyed_devil_ | Oct 15, 2000 03:59am | #145
*Sorry Ken, I've just spent several hours trying to make Pi undestand what it means to be a professional, whether it's a professional teacher or a stooge it doesn't matter. If we dumb down the standards for Mike, who is finding out that there is a lot of "shit" in a roof, (I personally don't know about that term), then we'll all be headed down the path of public education. that's the same system that didn't figure out that I wasn't sitting in that trig roof for six weeks!blueYou cant just become a stooge without the proper credentials mike. Sorry. Go be a professor of roofology!

Mike_McNally | Oct 15, 2000 04:01am | #146
*Blue, Please reconsider me for acceptance into the club. I may not know enough right now but I sure can post some dandy questions. Just wait till the next one comes.Mike

Ken_Drake | Oct 15, 2000 04:02am | #147
*Blue,But consider the the fact that Joe has ordained him into the Club. Doesn't that count for something?

Ken_Drake | Oct 15, 2000 04:07am | #148
*Mike,I think Blue can be persuaded. Let's see what Adirondack Jack has to say about this. He might be able to influence Blue's decission.

blue_eyed_devil_ | Oct 15, 2000 04:08am | #149
*Mike, I've reconsidered.No.bluePs That two letter word is the most important word a contractor will ever learn.

blue_eyed_devil_ | Oct 15, 2000 04:11am | #150
*I respect Aj, because he lives near a stream. Anyone that lives near a stream can't be all bad. But I'll be very surprised if he'd reccomend Mike into the inclusion into the stooge club based on Joe's nomination. Hell, he didn't offer even one solution. blue

Ken_Drake | Oct 15, 2000 04:12am | #151
*Mike,It doesn't sound good. Blue can be tough when he wants to be. You'll just have to hope AJ has the clout to get you in.

Mike_McNally | Oct 15, 2000 04:17am | #152
*Blue granted I didnt offer any solution but you must remember I offered the petition. There would be no club if i had not. Where do you hail from?At this point im more worried about the snow than I am about getting my roof on. I have that pretty well digested by now, after,155 posts. I hope we dont blow the system.Mike

Ken_Drake | Oct 15, 2000 04:18am | #153
*Blue,Your point is well taken. Living by the stream is definitely a positive, but I beg to differ on your point that he won't accept Mike in just because Joe nominated him. I'd like to point out something else to you Blue. Look at it this way, if we all get together sometime to frame and deck a roof, one of us will have to hump most of the plywood, and that is usually the most inexperienced man.

Joe_Fusco_ | Oct 15, 2000 04:22am | #154
*Mike,

You already have my vote. Based on this new evidence, if you go any lower you might as well kiss Moe's ass.

View Image © 1999-2000"The first step towards vice is to shroud innocent actions in mystery, and whoever likes to conceal something sooner or later has reason to conceal it." Aristotle

Ken_Drake | Oct 15, 2000 04:25am | #155
*Joe,I don't think that would help his cause. As Blue has pointed out, the problem is related more to field time, paying your dues, etc

blue_eyed_devil_ | Oct 15, 2000 04:27am | #156
*Ken, Okay, after that last post by the numberless Joe, he's in. Joe, I know I love you, I'm not sure if the others do. You certainly are a bad child.Mike, you f****in' stooge, get that plywood up here!blue

Ken_Drake | Oct 15, 2000 04:29am | #157
*Mike,Congrats! Sounds like you're in.

Joe_Fusco_ | Oct 15, 2000 04:32am | #158
*Blue,

I all honesty, you are a hard guy NOT to like. But knock off all at love shit. Now Moe, that's another story. . . . . .

View Image © 1999-2000"The first step towards vice is to shroud innocent actions in mystery, and whoever likes to conceal something sooner or later has reason to conceal it." Aristotle

Mike_McNally | Oct 15, 2000 04:32am | #159
*Yeah, but im the oldest and I have a cabin way up in northern Canada, 20 miles into the bush on a beatutiful lake. that sure beats living by a stream.

Ken_Drake | Oct 15, 2000 04:35am | #160
*Joe, You seem a little more mellow tonight than usual. If you keep it, you might end up being invited into the STOOGE CLUB.Now that Mike apparently is in, (pending AJ's veto power), the only problem will be that you'll have to deal him. Getting his vote could be tough.

Joe_Fusco_ | Oct 15, 2000 04:35am | #161
*Blue,

The boy is already bad mouthing the egitt's stream. . . Straighten him out.

View Image © 1999-2000"The first step towards vice is to shroud innocent actions in mystery, and whoever likes to conceal something sooner or later has reason to conceal it." Aristotle

Joe_Fusco_ | Oct 15, 2000 04:39am | #162
*Moe,

You know why I'm so good at spotting bozo's jerks and stoogie's? Because I've been all three, but at least I'm trying to quit. How about you?

View Image © 1999-2000"The first step towards vice is to shroud innocent actions in mystery, and whoever likes to conceal something sooner or later has reason to conceal it." Aristotle

Ken_Drake | Oct 15, 2000 04:40am | #163
*Joe,Good point. I believe you.Been there, done that.Moe

blue_eyed_devil_ | Oct 15, 2000 04:53am | #164
*I'm not quitin'. Not till Tauton throws me out!Whhoooopp whoooop whoooooooop whhhhhhoooop, Nyat Nyat Nyat nyat!Whoooooop whooooooooooop whooooopBe nice Moe!blue

blue_eyed_devil_ | Oct 10, 2000 01:29pm | #12
*How far up in Canada and do you ever invite fellow stooges to hunt there? Is there anything to hunt besides polar bears?blue

Joe_Fusco_ | Oct 15, 2000 04:57am | #165
*Blue,

Did you find the "numbers"?

View Image © 1999-2000"The first step towards vice is to shroud innocent actions in mystery, and whoever likes to conceal something sooner or later has reason to conceal it." Aristotle

Mike_McNally | Oct 15, 2000 04:59am | #166
*SHIT, ANYONE WHO wont admit they havent been there is lying like hell and they are probably still there. Humor is a great thing. I gave this machine to my wife last Xmas and she uses it for work. So I have to give her some time on it.talk to you later Mike

Ken_Drake | Oct 15, 2000 05:05am | #167
*Blue,So want do you want to do, stay up all night and review last week's notes from the Stooge Club meeting?BTW, how much petty cash is available? I need a new blade.

blue_eyed_devil_ | Oct 15, 2000 05:06am | #168
*Joe, I'm not lookin for the numbers from anyone but you. You haven't given them, so I guess ken and I won. Silence is like saying uncle when your choking too hard on your words.!blue, the new breaclone smack champ!

blue_eyed_devil_ | Oct 15, 2000 05:08am | #169
*I'm printing out this thread now. I'm so proud that the stooges prevailed and Joe capitulated. Long live larry, moe,curly and shemp!blue

Ken_Drake | Oct 15, 2000 05:10am | #170
*Mike,Good night.It's been fun.Before you leave, could you say something to one of the Charter Memebers about getting a little sleep?I think you should be the new Treasurer. I asked Blue about our petty cash fund, ( I need a new blade), and he's so fricken disorganized, he can't find the his records

Ken_Drake | Oct 15, 2000 05:13am | #171
*Mike,Well, there you go. You're Shemp. I have no clue, but it will probably stick. It's sort of like picking a name from the Hurricane list for the season. Shemp came up

Joe_Fusco_ | Oct 15, 2000 05:13am | #172
*Blue,

0,1,1,2,3,5,8,13,21,34,55. . .this help?

View Image © 1999-2000"The first step towards vice is to shroud innocent actions in mystery, and whoever likes to conceal something sooner or later has reason to conceal it." Aristotle

Ken_Drake | Oct 15, 2000 05:17am | #173
*Joe, Looks like the Fibonaccci Series to me, basis of the golden mean, or golden section.Great stuff. 1.618034:1. Truly a great ratio.

blue_eyed_devil_ | Oct 15, 2000 05:20am | #174
*Joe! Yikes! those are those goofy numbers. That site was so complicated that it made my head spin. I wish I was smart enough to read all that stuff and digest it too.blueNow send those numbers from post #4,678.blue

The_Tennis_Court_Builder_...on_t | Oct 15, 2000 05:20am | #175
*I just got home and found I had a hundred!!!???!!! posts to read!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!I have just laughed solid for an hour reading this shit!....My cheeks will be sore for days.......!Shemp is in...near the stream,ajJoe...the length of a common in your hip area is________?...and its pitch___________?

Mike_McNally | Oct 15, 2000 05:21am | #176
*Blue, Im 100 miles north of North Bay. I havent done any hunting as it is too involved to get a moose tag.ontario has banned the spring bear season and we are overrun with the bastards.They have been in my place twice. recently some people came to a nearby camp for a stay. They got in late and were probably booze up also. Anyway, at night they left the door open and one came in while they were sleeping and had a ball. they slept through it,how I dont know. The next night they baited it and shot it. I saw a huge one this past Aug while I was fishing. I was glad i was in my boat. We mostly go for the fish. It can get real nasty in the fall and its a 20 mile boat ride after you get there. 30/40 mph winds and an open boat dont mix too well.let me know if you are serious about a trip. Im sure we can arange something.Mike

The_Tennis_Court_Builder_...on_t | Oct 15, 2000 05:22am | #177
*Fibonacci you are not....near the stream,aj

Joe_Fusco_ | Oct 15, 2000 05:26am | #178
*Ton-ah,

What do you think it is?

View Image © 1999-2000"The first step towards vice is to shroud innocent actions in mystery, and whoever likes to conceal something sooner or later has reason to conceal it." Aristotle

Ken_Drake | Oct 15, 2000 05:29am | #179
*Blue,That Fibonacci series is truly interesting. You just start with 1 then 1, and add them together, to get the next number which would be 2.( There's some awesome math) Then 1+2=3 to get the next number, etc. As you progress, the ratio of any number to the one proceeding it, aprroaches the golden mean, 1.618034.( rounded off)Books have been written about this number. A very interesting feature related to it is that if you take the number "1" and divide it by 1.618034, you get .618034, in other words, the golden mean, divided into 1, equals the golden mean, minus one. I believe that is the only number known to humankind that has that property.Now Blue, that ought to put you to sleep.

Joe_Fusco_ | Oct 15, 2000 05:33am | #180
*Moe,

Your doing it again. . . You start with "0" 0+1=1, 1+1=2, 1+2=3. . . Get the point.

View Image © 1999-2000"The first step towards vice is to shroud innocent actions in mystery, and whoever likes to conceal something sooner or later has reason to conceal it." Aristotle

Ken_Drake | Oct 15, 2000 05:34am | #181
*Oh for Christ's Sake, Aj is in here, just when I thought this thing was going to bed.Anyway, pending your veto AJ, as you can see, we have a new member in the Stooge Club.I've suggested that he become the new Treasurer, as Blue can never find his records. Okay with you?Moe

Mike_McNally | Oct 15, 2000 05:35am | #182
*Thank you. I just love the name SHEMP. I cant wait to get posted on my checks and let all my friends know. I hope the hell I remember it when I get up tomorrow.as everSHEMP

blue_eyed_devil_ | Oct 15, 2000 05:37am | #183
*Don't bother asking him Larry, err Aj. Joes not too good at filling in the blanks.I stumped him on the first try!blue, the Master Breacclone Smacker

Ken_Drake | Oct 15, 2000 05:37am | #184
*Joe,I don't believe that is correct Joe, the series, as I know it, begins 1.1.2.3.5.8.13 etc.Where did you get your information?Please, no long answers at this point.

Joe_Fusco_ | Oct 15, 2000 05:37am | #185
*

The way things are going around here tonight, the key word is HEMP and not Shemp!!

View Image © 1999-2000"The first step towards vice is to shroud innocent actions in mystery, and whoever likes to conceal something sooner or later has reason to conceal it." Aristotle

Joe_Fusco_ | Oct 15, 2000 05:39am | #186
*Moe,

What can I say, you will always be you. Read this.

View Image © 1999-2000"The first step towards vice is to shroud innocent actions in mystery, and whoever likes to conceal something sooner or later has reason to conceal it." Aristotle

Ken_Drake | Oct 15, 2000 05:40am | #187
*Joe,Good one!Will considerMoe

blue_eyed_devil_ | Oct 15, 2000 05:41am | #188
*No way! I'd love to traipse around the bush, in the comfort of my dodge ram.I like boat rides too, but not if I have to suffer. I suffer enuf during duck season.It is awfully nice of you to make the offer though!Thank you,blue

Joe_Fusco_ | Oct 15, 2000 05:42am | #189
*Blue,

You see, we can get along. I see him as larry Too!!! LOL

View Image © 1999-2000"The first step towards vice is to shroud innocent actions in mystery, and whoever likes to conceal something sooner or later has reason to conceal it." Aristotle

The_Tennis_Court_Builder_...on_t | Oct 15, 2000 05:42am | #190
*I get the secretary as I see she's racked...treasurer Mike seconded...Grand Father of OZ for you...And just kick blues butt...VP Boogerer and chump change man.Near the damn sheets and getting away from the stream,aj

The_Tennis_Court_Builder_...on_t | Oct 15, 2000 05:44am | #191
*Starts with zero...Fib was into zeros before most in Europe...On the leading bleeding edge of his stream,ajRipped off the zero idea from my great great great Chinese Uncle Buck

blue_eyed_devil_ | Oct 15, 2000 05:46am | #192
*Ken, You dum shit. You are a moron! THE FLUBBERNASTY NUMBERS START WITH ZERO. TOO MANY XRAYS THIS MORNING YOU IMBICILE?!!!!By the way SCREW YOU BOZO!JoePs ignore the namesake at the top that says blue. I rigged this post with my super duper html code breakin' warez makin' software. I'm really Joe.

Ken_Drake | Oct 15, 2000 05:49am | #193
*AJ, Thanks, I stand corrected.It really isn't that important. The whole point of the series is the eventual ratio that exists after you write down a couple of hundred numbers in the series, but that for correcting me before Joe got his shot at it

The_Tennis_Court_Builder_...on_t | Oct 15, 2000 05:49am | #194
*Larry is baked!!!!!!!!!!good nite, near the cheese,Larry the good stooge

Joe_Fusco_ | Oct 15, 2000 05:51am | #195
*Blue,

I haven't smoked short or long ones in about 15 years. Something tells me I might be missing something. . . . . . . . .

View Image © 1999-2000"The first step towards vice is to shroud innocent actions in mystery, and whoever likes to conceal something sooner or later has reason to conceal it." Aristotle

Ken_Drake | Oct 15, 2000 05:52am | #196
*Blue ,For Pete's Sake, give me a break. Anyone who knows anything at all about mathematics, knows that zero is the same thing as Nothin. Therefore, if it ain't nothin, it's really not there anyway

blue_eyed_devil_ | Oct 15, 2000 05:54am | #197
*Hey Moe I agreed all along. It was joe who hijacked my nic that said all those bad things about you.If I see him I'll give him a double eye poke!Curly, err, blue

Joe_Fusco_ | Oct 15, 2000 05:56am | #198
*Curly,

Hey, I know the double eye poke BLOCK!

View Image © 1999-2000"The first step towards vice is to shroud innocent actions in mystery, and whoever likes to conceal something sooner or later has reason to conceal it." Aristotle

Ken_Drake | Oct 15, 2000 06:00am | #199
*Blue,Thanks for the support on this issue ( whatever it is)Now look, we apparently put Larry near the sheets, and Shemp has had his computer taken away by the wife, so what do I have to do to get your butt out of here for the evening, post a 10,000 word message about the Fibonacci series?On second thought, I don't think that that I'll do that, as it will result in a 20,000 word post from Joe.

blue_eyed_devil_ | Oct 15, 2000 06:20am | #200
*Moe he's good! He threw up the two eye-poke block on my first attempt!I'm outa here! I'm gonna give it some thought while i sleep. Maybe I'll try the handsaw rake on his head tomorrow!blue

Joe_Fusco_ | Oct 15, 2000 03:01pm | #201
*Blue,

Ouch. . . . I'll have to wear my football helmet, LOL

View Image © 1999-2000"The first step towards vice is to shroud innocent actions in mystery, and whoever likes to conceal something sooner or later has reason to conceal it." Aristotle

Qtrmeg_ | Oct 16, 2000 02:25am | #202
*I'll have all of you know that this stupid thread caused me to be an hour late for work this morning, man, and I never got to the last bit where you all seemed to sort it out. Anyhow, I know I'll never get to be smart enough to be a stooge, so I'm starting my own club and I am going to be the scarecrow...I figure I have an ex that is a witch, and if I run across a lion, a tinman, and some monkeys this Halloween I am re-making the movie.You all be good, and Mike, good luck with that roof, it has been talked to death and it is time to make sawdust.

Ken_Drake | Oct 17, 2000 02:15am | #203
*Qtrmeg,You could be smart enough to become a stooge, and get into the Stooge Club.There are hurdles in your way however, and the very first one is, you must be referred to as a stooge, in a post, by Joe, as we all have. Until that happens, DON'T EVEN THINK ABOUT GETTING IN. That's not as difficult as you may think however. Just wait for him to say 2+2=4, and quickly post a reply that the correct answer is 5. That will get you a referral.The second requirement, is that you have "paid your dues" in the construction field, as Blue points out. If you're some kind of a weekend warrior, who shows up with his 16 foot sewing tape and a Walmart tool kit, you might want to stick with your idea of starting your own club, as you suggested. On the other hand, Blue let up after awhile and let Mike in, even tho he did not pass the "paid your dues" criteria. Even if he does let up and you do get in, you'll still find yourself humping a lot of plywood to make up for "what you've missed", and it's likely be on a cold,rainy day.Finally, you must be nominated by one of the current stooges, AJ (Larry) Secretary, Blue (Curly) Vice President, Mike (Shemp) Treasurer, or myself (Moe), and you must receive a unanimous vote, which also is tough.One final hint. I don't think you'll ever get in with a name like Qtrmeg.Good LuckMoePresident Stooge Club

Mike_McNally | Oct 17, 2000 03:03am | #204
*Qtrmeg, As treasurer I might add that the non refundable application fee is a mere 1200 smackeroos. You may send it directly to my attention.ShempTreasurerStooge Club

Mike_McNally | Oct 17, 2000 03:07am | #205
*Blue,I now think that you may now realize your positive pivotal vote was well worth the effort.Shemp

blue_eyed_devil_ | Oct 17, 2000 11:31am | #206
*Whooop, whooop, whooop,curlyPS nyat, nyat, nyat

Mr._Pita | Oct 17, 2000 02:34pm | #207
*I hope you realize Curly is spinning in his grave - and I don't mean the Curly Shuffle. Try whoo whoo whoo - nyuck, nyuck, nyuck...Mr. Pita"Just living up to my name..."

Luis_Cruz | Oct 17, 2000 10:51pm | #208
*This is a great thread. I can't believe all the good information given so freely and the pictures were great too. Well Mike you certainly have enough information to frame your roof now. Ken Drake did a great job of giving you solid techniques. Joe Fusco gave you some great pictures also. Even though I would probably frame it the way that Ken suggest, Joe's approach was pretty good also. When you think about it. The 1/8" difference in pitch doesn't really amount to much over the roof and is well within rough framing tolerances. I can see his point about cutting all the rafters the same. Anyway good luck and let us know how it turns out.Luis.

blue_eyed_devil_ | Oct 18, 2000 02:34am | #209
*Your right Mr Pita, the three stooges expert. It's been more than a few years since I enjoyed my three friends. My age is showing. I hope the bald buzzard forgives me.Whoo whoo whhooo, nyuk nyuk nyuk!blue

blue_eyed_devil_ | Oct 18, 2000 02:46am | #210
*I snuck over and took a few pics of Mikes hip roof. He obviously used Joe's methods. If you look closely, you can see that it respembles Joe's sketches quite accurately.I concede Joe. I humbly eat my words.Look here: http://webx.taunton.com/WebX?233@@.eead14c/34!enclosure=.eeafa8aYummy!, blue

Ken_Drake | Oct 18, 2000 03:05am | #211
*blue,Now there's a real professional job, and definitely a 4/12 pitch. Nice work Mike, but I'm insulted that you didn't use my method.

Joe_Fusco_ | Oct 18, 2000 03:24am | #212
*Blue,

I thought that was Mike's version of the house you just framed after the first 10 mph wind. . . LOL

View Image © 1999-2000"He who fights with monsters should look to it that he himself does not become a monster. And when you gaze long into an abyss the abyss also gazes into you." Friedrich W. Nietzsche

blue_eyed_devil_ | Oct 18, 2000 03:29am | #213
*Joe, I only guarantee my houses for ninty days or nine miles after I leave the site. High winds (anything above 5 mph-it's an act of God after all) nullify the warranty.blue

blue_eyed_devil_ | Oct 18, 2000 03:31am | #214
*Don't be insulted Ken, after all, why would he listen to a stooge?! I'm calling osha however because your not supposed to lean a step ladder like that. All four legs must be properly extended.Did it pass inspection Schemp?Blue

Joe_Fusco_ | Oct 18, 2000 04:24am | #215
*Blue,

Being the booger that you are, you might want to go with 30 days and spit speed. If someone pass gas in or near you house. . . all bets are off. LOL

View Image © 1999-2000"He who fights with monsters should look to it that he himself does not become a monster. And when you gaze long into an abyss the abyss also gazes into you." Friedrich W. Nietzsche

Mike_Smith | Oct 18, 2000 05:39am | #216
*don't make me come over there ,blue ........

Qtrmeg_ | Oct 18, 2000 03:24pm | #217
*Ken>>>"Qtrmeg, You could be smart enough to become a stooge"I don't even think so, I started humping plywood almost 30 years ago and have been getting stupider and stupider ever since. As for the name thing, Scarecrow says it all... "if I only had a brain" lol.

Mr._Pita | Oct 18, 2000 03:31pm | #218
*easy..mike.. I think he's talking to Mike McNally, not your fine craftsmanship.

Ken_Drake | Oct 18, 2000 04:38pm | #219
*Mike, Two of the questions you had that I haven't addressed to this point are 1) the length of the main 4x8 roof rafters, 2) the measurement from the top of the 2x6 wall plate to the bottom of the 6x10 ridge beam. (Open the Attachment for drawings)Since the RUN of the common rafters to the center of the ridge beam is 17'0", the corresponding Length of the rafter would be 19" 8 3/16" as shown. As I'm sure you know, this measurement is always made along the top of the rafter, from the top of the plumb cut, down to the top of the plumb cut at the plate. Some inexperienced framers make the mistake of measuring from the top of the plumb cut, down to the corner point of the birdsmouth, which is not correct of course.I would suggest making a rafter template as shown in the attachment from a scrap piece of 2x8, about 30" long, but it really doesn't matter as long as you can fit the top pattern and the bottom pattern on it as shown. The 3"x3" plywood squares allow you to place the template on top of a rafter and flush it up with the top edge easily.After crowning the rafter, place the template on top of it and trace and cut the plumb cut and birdsmouth.Hook your tape on the long point of the plumb cut and measure down 19' 8 3/16" and make a mark on the top edge. Line up the top point of the plumb cut on the pattern with this mark and trace and cut once again.Cut all rafters this way.RIDGE HEIGHTThe width of the ridge beam is 6"Therefore the RUN from the 2x6 wall to the FACE of the ridge beam is 17" - 3" = 16"9" and on a 7/12 pitch, the rise for that much run is 9'9 1/4". Now, subtract the width of the ridge beam from it, say 10", to find the measurement from the top of the 2x6 plate, to the bottom of the ridge beam9'9 1/4 - 10" = 8' 11 1/4"Notice that since we kept the HAP the same for both birdsmouths, this measurement could be ignored in the calculation.

Joe_Fusco_ | Oct 19, 2000 12:24am | #220
*Mike,

Since you didn't take to kindly to my suggestion on a possible approach to framing your roof, I thought that I'd provide some much more useful information.First the "dark ages" approach which you can find at my site.Secondly, a Construction MasterTM by Calculated Industries® Buy one!Using this baby can make any roof framing stooge look like a star. . .I'm demonstrate; using the numbers Ken post for RUN, 17'0". You would enter into the calculator, 17 press the "Feet" button then the "RUN" button. Since you know your roof is 7/12 pitch, you would enter 7 press the "Inch" button then the "Pitch" button. Now just press the ""Daig" button and presto. . . 19' - 8 3/8" is displayed . Now that seems to have taken all the "Wizardry" out of the topic.

View Image © 1999-2000"He who fights with monsters should look to it that he himself does not become a monster. And when you gaze long into an abyss the abyss also gazes into you." Friedrich W. Nietzsche

Mike_McNally | Oct 19, 2000 12:39am | #221
*Ken, I wrote this once and somehow lost it . Thank you ever so much for your post and sketch. As usual , clear and easily understood. Ill have no problem with it. I do have another question re your post 17.In this post you indicated the gable commons to be 8'3 5/8''. I understand subtracting the ridge etc however was this computed from the plane of the house before or after the sheathing was applied. If before, wont the ridge have to be tacked on before the sheathing? You also indicated the hght of the ridge to be 3' 1 3/4". Is this because the top of the ridge is noe beveled and if it were would the top not be 3' 2 1/4" [ 32" plus the HAP of 6 1/4"]? Boy there are just so many details that can screw things up. I can just imagine how many mistakes get burried under the sheathing.One other point on the light side. Today my wife came home with a collar and a leash. I asked her why and she said if I wanted her to call me "SHEMP" it would have to go with the territory.Mike

Mike_McNally | Oct 19, 2000 12:47am | #222
*Blue! Where the hell did you get that picture? I was there the other day when a guy came by and took some pictures and he said he was from the bank. I hope everyone out there thinks Im on the right track. The bank does cause they just gave me a 30k draw today. I might add that my daddy owns the bank. Will keep you posted as I progress. Will you continue to take and post pics Blue? I dont know how to put them into this program.Mike

Ken_Drake | Oct 19, 2000 12:47am | #223
*Joe,I think you meant to type 19' 8 3/16", which I believe is correct, not 3/8"BTW, I make no bones about the fact that I use a CM4. In fact, I always carry 2 of them at the job site, along with a spare battery, and I would recommend that anyone working in the trades as we do purchase one. It's a very useful tool, one that I carry in my tool bag at all times, wrapped in one of those velcro insulators that you use to wrap a cold beer. ( for protection)

Ken_Drake | Oct 19, 2000 01:03am | #224
*Mike,In post # 17, I based my calculations on a RUN of 7' 10 1/2", as I assumed you would nail the ridge board directly to the studs. However, if you first sheathed the walls with say, 1/2" ply of some sort, before framing the roof for this section, the run of these rafters would be reduced by 2", and the rafter length would be based on a 7' 10" run.The new rafter length would be 8" 3 1/16" in this case.In any event Mike, the best way to put this section of the roof together is nail a few common rafters to the ridge board, and let it "settle into place". Then put a level on top of the ridge board and whack things around until you are pleased. It's not a perfect world Mike, but you certainly can make it look like one.Make sure that the ridge board that you choose is a nice straight piece.Ken

Mike_Smith | Oct 19, 2000 01:21am | #225
*here's the other view of the roof you guys are framin..dis one musta fell outta blue's truck as he was hightailin it outta heah ..before they stopped payment..

Joe_Fusco_ | Oct 19, 2000 01:34am | #226
*Moe,

That's right it was 3/16", actually 11/64". I've got three, 2 CM4's and one CM3. But I can do just as well with my $17 TI.

View Image © 1999-2000"He who fights with monsters should look to it that he himself does not become a monster. And when you gaze long into an abyss the abyss also gazes into you." Friedrich W. Nietzsche

Ken_Drake | Oct 19, 2000 01:52am | #227
*Mike ,I think you and Blue are building these things on the side for extra cash. As as matter of fact I employed my special software program which can super-duper zooomin on your photo and could detect you and Blue in their reading the cartoons.Ken

Ken_Drake | Oct 19, 2000 01:55am | #228
*Joe,Boy, are you guys getting soaked for those $17 Texas Instruments Calc's up there. On a good day, you can find one down here for about $12, unless it's solar, as I suspect the one you have is.Moe

Joe_Fusco_ | Oct 19, 2000 02:03am | #229
*Schemp,

Among the many mistakes you're going to make is this one.When you fit your rafter the first thing you will think is you cut is short. You didn't if you followed the directions. You need to locate it at the angle line (the dotted one) and NOT where every instinct tells you it should go (the solid line at the corner of the ridge)If you want it to go to the corner, follow the direction on my site for framing a fixed height ridge. It will take only a minute to figure the new angle and rafter lenght you'll need.

View Image © 1999-2000"He who fights with monsters should look to it that he himself does not become a monster. And when you gaze long into an abyss the abyss also gazes into you." Friedrich W. Nietzsche

Ken_Drake | Oct 19, 2000 02:54am | #230
*Joe,I really don't want to get into this tonight, but when I cut a common rafter that is to butt to a ridge board, I certainly do expect the long point of the plumb cut to hit the top corner of the ridge board. There is absolutely no reason that it shouldn't do so.Granted, we do not live in a perfect world, and everything doesn't always work out perfectly, but otherwise, there is no reason to expect that a common rafter would meet the ridge board in any other fashion.This is standard roof framing stuff that has been practiced over the past 200 years or so, and that can be backed up with mathematics, and I doubt that things are going to change, as you suggest in your last post.Still a StoogeMoe

Joe_Fusco_ | Oct 19, 2000 03:10am | #231
*Moe,

How about the simplest answer. . . Because in doesn't go there? Your head stooge. . . You should know this off the top of your head. All the measurement you did were form center lines. The top of the ridge is at the right height but the point of intersection is at half it thickness, Not at the corner. If you did not adjust for it and put it at the corner it's wrong. I guess the CM4 doesn't tell you that.As far as the 200 years of drivel goes, most roofs had no ridge. If they did, and it the way you say then they did it wrong too. Simply because you say it's right still doesn't make it right.

View Image © 1999-2000"He who fights with monsters should look to it that he himself does not become a monster. And when you gaze long into an abyss the abyss also gazes into you." Friedrich W. Nietzsche

Ken_Drake | Oct 19, 2000 03:35am | #232
*Joe,First Joe, I may have missed something, but you should at least inform the viewers that the roof pitch that you are using is 8/12 in this case.Let's start with the rafter tail. You show the run to be 12" and correctly show the rafter length to be 1' 2 7/16"The main part of the rafter works the same way. The run to the plumb cut it 3"0"-3/4"= 2'11 1/4". Therefore the correct rafter length is 3" 6 3/8", exactly as you show.So why in the hell don't you just put the damn ridge board where it belongs, instead of where you show it?If the run is 2' 11 1/4" the the RISE is 1" 11 1/2"Add the HAP, which is 6", to get 2' 5 1/2", and that's the ridge board height above plate, not at 2" 6 1/16" as you show it.Stop making it so complicated, and confusing people.Moe

blue_eyed_devil_ | Oct 19, 2000 04:52am | #233
*Actually Joe, you have to be a wizad to make those construction calculators work. I admit, I'm not too good at reading and comprehending instructions. And I'll also admit that I couldn't get mine to spit out any proper answers. I suppose if I was tutored, I'd catch on. I prefer my silly dual powered kmart brand (8$ now!) I know the construction master was made for us, but it's just too hard for me. I have an excuse though: Whooo whoooo whoooo, nyuk nyuk nyuk!blue

blue_eyed_devil_ | Oct 19, 2000 04:55am | #234
*Hey Mike! You forgot felt!blue

blue_eyed_devil_ | Oct 19, 2000 04:58am | #235
*Joe, send me some of that stuff you are smoking! why in the hell would you want the ridge to be peeking out over the rafter?curley

blue_eyed_devil_ | Oct 19, 2000 05:17am | #236
*Stooges, and also chief wannabe stooge, Joe:I started whacking that stack today. I started on the easy part of the garage. I don't know about fixed height ridges or anything like that, but do know that I figured the rafters rather easily.Here's my math. Pay attention wannabe, to the simple way that I deal with the ridge thickness...I deduct the thickness of the ridge, first, from the overall span, then divide by 24 then multiply by the unit length.It's a 9/12. The span is 23' 3.5". I'm left with 23' 2 " after the ridge is deducted. My soar calculator requires me to do this 2 / 12 + 23 / 24 X 15 (I know that the unit length of a 9/12 = 15).Here's my question: Okay, wannabe stooge, can you figure that rafter length with less pushes of your Mastercalculator? I'm forced to push the button 15 times. how many pushes on the Construction master?bluePs heres a cutting technique that I learned from a fine homebuilding article many years ago. This is the first time I've tried it.

Joe_Fusco_ | Oct 19, 2000 12:25pm | #237
*Moe,

Lets start with this, I don't need you to tell me what's right, I don't have that much faith in you."So why in the hell don't you just put the damn ridge board where it belongs, instead of where you show it?"The ridge will go where it goes depending on how you set it. If you pinch the ridge between 2 sets of common rafters to set it (the ridge) you can move it up or down so the points of the commons meet the ridge at the corner. This happens simply because the ridge can move up or down in that plane.On the other hand if you mount it (support it first) you have to make the allowance to the ridge height if you want the rafter to meet at the corner of the ridge.When you add the H.A.P. to the ridge height you must deduct the rise amount for that pitch roof that is equal to 1/2 the thickness of the ridge. In the case of my graphic, using my CM4 3/4" press "Run", 8 press "Inch" press "Pitch" and the press "Rise" which equals 1/2". My graphic show this quite well. Like I said it is a common mistake. I'm glad I had you to help demonstrate it.I find it odd that in all the verbiage you post, you never mentioned that, well it doesn't matter anyone can get that info off my site or right here for that matter.

View Image © 1999-2000"He who fights with monsters should look to it that he himself does not become a monster. And when you gaze long into an abyss the abyss also gazes into you." Friedrich W. Nietzsche

Mike_McNally | Oct 19, 2000 12:38pm | #238
*Blue,Damn! You are right. Now Im going th have to do a tear off and it will probably cost me a couple of K. This learning thing is really tough on the pocketbook.Mike

Joe_Fusco_ | Oct 19, 2000 12:47pm | #239
*Curly,

I can get the length of the rafter in 13 key strokes 14'-5 3/4". So after you get "15" what do you do, step it off or multiply 15 x 11.583 which equals 173.75" ? So you really need more keystrokes to get the answer. . .P.S. that technique is only good if you have a small birds mouth of a big saw. I use an 8 1/4".

View Image © 1999-2000"He who fights with monsters should look to it that he himself does not become a monster. And when you gaze long into an abyss the abyss also gazes into you." Friedrich W. Nietzsche

Ken_Drake | Oct 19, 2000 02:34pm | #240
*Joe,Actually, if you follow Curly's directions as he first posted them, they will result in the same answer that you or I would get using a CM4, 14' 5 3/4"Here's his method, as he describes itdeduct the thickness of the ridge, first, from the overall span, then divide by 24 then multiply by the unit length. So let's do the math as he suggests23' 3 1/2" - 1 1/2" = 23' 2"(23' 2"/ 24) X 15 = 14' 5 3/4"What his method actually boils down to if you look at the math behind it, is that he is finding twice the length of the common rafter, then dividing by 2.It's not how I would do it, but it works for him, and that's the bottom line.Still have your Construction Master Calculator Blue? Or did it get used to shim a wall?

Ken_Drake | Oct 19, 2000 02:45pm | #241
*Joe,You seem to be the only one of us that has the ability to to incorporate your sketches directly into your posts. I'd love to know how to do that. What would it take from me to get you to share that knowledge with us?I could arrange for you to be Guest Speaker at the next Stooge Club meeting, if that would sway you.MoePresidentStooge Club

The_Tennis_Court_Builder_...on_t | Oct 19, 2000 03:05pm | #242
*Ken,I have no idea what I'm doing with graphics posting...I did this in MS Paint...then copied it to MS Frontpage html editor, then switched views to html, selected all and copiy pasted it to the window fro posting...Joe is doing something similar but pulling graphic from a CAD program...Joe...walk us through the process...near the stream,aj

Ken_Drake | Oct 19, 2000 03:24pm | #243
*Joe,Okay Joe, this is your chance to be our hero. Splain us how to do it.If you do a good job, I'm going to push for a bronze statue of you to he displayed outside our Stooge Headquarters.Moe

Mr._Pita | Oct 19, 2000 04:18pm | #244
*Here's how to do it. You use HTML tags to set an image source. Tags are set apart from the text of a message by (carets). In my example, I change the carets to parentheses so they will show up. To use this method, the picture must already appear on the web. One way around this is to attach a picture, then post the message. Immediately edit your post, and add in the HTML tag using the URL of the attachment as the source of your ppicture.There are many variables you can add into the tag, such as a border, alignment, etc., but these are the basics: source, width, height. When you create an image, you need to find its properties. By keeping the image size the same, it will not appear distorted.(img src="http://webx.taunton.com/WebX?233@@.eead543/231!enclosure=.eeb0219" width="640" height="480" ) Now compare (Note the heght and width are reversed):(img src="http://webx.taunton.com/WebX?233@@.eead543/231!enclosure=.eeb0219" width="480" height="640" )

Ken_Drake | Oct 19, 2000 04:48pm | #245
*Mr. Pita,Geez, I wish I knew more about what you are talking about. I'm sure it's helpful to AJ as he has more knowledge of HTML etc, than I do.Let me tell you how I go about posting my attachments. The you might be able to get me going in the right direction.First, I make the drawing on my drawing board and scan it.Next, I drag and drop it into Microsoft Photo Editor so that I can resize it. I usually make it about 3"x3", so when someone opens it in Breaktime, they can see the entire drawing.Finally, I save it as a GIF image in MY Briefcase and give it a name like 3,4,5 triangleNow is time to attach it. So I click on BROWSE, find the file and open it, and if by majic, it appears in my post, as below.Now, can you get me going again, a little slower please. I think I'm getting stupider and stupider like Qtrmeg

Mr._Pita | Oct 19, 2000 05:03pm | #246
*OK, everything you told me up to:> Now is time to attach it. So I click on BROWSE, find the file and open it, and if by majic, it appears in my post, as below. is irrelevant. (Very important to you, that is, but not to getting an imbedded image.)Now that it appears in your post, click on the attatchment. This opens a new window with the picture. Right click on the picture, and select Properties. One of the tidbits revealed is "Dimensions: 535 x 621 pixels". Now you know the width (535) and height (621) you need. Now go up to your navigation bar and copy the URL (the http://www.whatevercrap.com stuff) - I do mean copy, as in hit CTRL & C.Now go back to your post and click edit. At the end of your message, add in the "tag". 1. Start with a left caret (<) 2. Type 'img' (no single quotes, this tells the computer what kind of tag it is)3. a. Type 'src="' (again no single quotes, this tells it where to find the image to use)3. b. hit CTRL & V. this should put 'http://webx.taunton.com/WebX?233@@.eead543/251!enclosure=.eeb0591' immediately to the right of src="3. c. Type '"' (again no single quotes.) 4. Type 'width="535" height="621" ' (I hope you're getting the hang of this no single quotes thing, this tells the computer how much screen real estate to use to display the image)5. End with a right caret (>)

The_Tennis_Court_Builder_...on_t | Oct 19, 2000 06:05pm | #247
* Bingo...thanks Pita....learning the secret code, near the stream,ajMay have to teach you the secret the handshake... Oh no...it's shrinking...no it's growing!...I'm out of control!

Joe_Fusco_ | Oct 19, 2000 10:54pm | #248
*

The difference is that my graphics require no overhead for TP. Their are many many free sites that you can store you pictures at and all you would need to do is just provide a link. Netscape, Yahoo, Fortunecity all provide free space, visit their sites and check it out.

View Image © 1999-2000"He who fights with monsters should look to it that he himself does not become a monster. And when you gaze long into an abyss the abyss also gazes into you." Friedrich W. Nietzsche

Mr._Pita | Oct 19, 2000 11:18pm | #249
*True, but here is free too, and a little less hassle.

Ken_Drake | Oct 20, 2000 02:11am | #250
*Mr. Pita,I don't have high speed DSL or cable modem, as many others don't at this point in time. Just standard 56k modem, and, while your information is very good, since you posted those 2 photos in that post to demonstrate your point, it now takes me about 1 minute 45 seconds to download the posts in this thread. That's not acceptable, is it? I think photos are out. I just want to show simple black and white line drawings, which I assume take way less memory.Perhaps you should listen to what Joe is saying, even tho I really don't fully grasp it myself. Because of the download time of those 2 photos every time I want to check out this thread, I think it's probably off to the archives fairly soon. Correct me if I am wrong.KenKen

Mike_Smith | Oct 20, 2000 02:26am | #251
*ken.. i'm running a 56k modem...currently hooked up at 28 8 everything posts just fine .. not much diference between here and my cable modem at work...now if i click on those photo posts that pita did....those load in about 20 seconds...istead of instantly like they do on the cable.....do you read all the threads ? or just the outline and then select the new ones you haven't read ? something different from what i get...

blue_eyed_devil_ | Oct 20, 2000 01:43pm | #252
*I think I'm right about that 15 stroke thing. I usually want my final figures to be in inches. I don't like them converted to feet and inches.But, I agree that the constructin master is faster. In fact it's 15/13 faster and your roofs should be framed 15/13 times faster as a result!I'd still be working on my first roof if I used my const calculator because I can't get it to give me any answer! I'm just to A.d.d to figure it out!curley

blue_eyed_devil_ | Oct 20, 2000 01:46pm | #253
*Those numbers better work or I'll be heading to another lumber pile to get some new stock.I never pre-check a set of rafters before I cut them all anymore. Their either all right, or all wrong!I still have that calculator somewhere. I don't even pick it up for simple calculations because it confuses the hell out of me.blue

Ken_Drake | Oct 20, 2000 02:02pm | #254
*Mike,Thanks for your reply.Here's a typical senario. Went on-line, hooked in at 41,333 bps this morning. Go to Breaktime, then Construction Techniques and click on it. It is at that point that I have the approximately 1 minute 45 second wait before I can view any posts in the thread, and it seems that about 99% of the wait is for the downloading of those 2 photos by Mr. Pita. I'm not clicking on those photo posts of Mr. Pitas. There downloading automatically every time I come in here. Apparently that is not the case for you. In other words if I scroll up and down in this thread, I'll run into those photos in his post and they will have already been opened, whereas you say "when I click on those photo posts that Mr. Pita did, they load in about 20 seconds."Any suggestions will be appreciated.Ken

blue_eyed_devil_ | Oct 20, 2000 02:11pm | #255
*Ken, go to your internet prefereces and uncheck "show pictures" or something like that.Then, when you want to see a pic, right click and select "show picture"blue

Ken_Drake | Oct 20, 2000 02:26pm | #256
*Curly,When you get a few minutes, dig out that old Construction Master ( what model? ) and let's do your garage common rafters on it just for kicks.Just follow these steps.1)press the keys until it displays 23' 3 1/2", your span2)press "divided by" key, the 2 then = to get the half span = 11' 7 3/4"3) subtract one-half the thickness of the ridge board by pressing - 3/4" = and 11'7" should appear4) press run, to tell the calculator that this is the run of the commons5) press 9 inch then press pitch6) press diagonal and 14' 5 3/4" appearsNo decimals to work with, no unit rafter lengths to deal with, etc, the calculator does all that tedious stuff for you and always gives you your answer to the nearest 1/16"If you want your answer in inches, just hit the inch key, and it will be instantly converted for you.Moe

Ken_Drake | Oct 20, 2000 02:51pm | #257
*Curly,I don't care what your friends say about you, you're a genius. I unchecked "automatically load images" under preferences/Advanced, and that solved my problem. ThanksNoe

The_Tennis_Court_Builder_...on_t | Oct 20, 2000 03:07pm | #258
*Ken,You can leave the pictures checked and load quicker by setting your breaktime preferences to show an outline of all posts when you click on a thread...Then when you click on the new posts, you will just have those few come up...shouldn't take as long as you say that way...Also a note to blue and you about the most confusing thing on the CM 4...When entering pitch it has to be in inches...if done in feet or with nada, it comes out wrong as I recall...Could be the problem blue has had...I have to read the little book when I haven't used it in awhile....I still have that extra instruction from you Ken last time you visited, for doing arches or something...thanks...near the cable stream,ajWe should start a new thread for all this graphics stuff and CM4 yak....

Mr._Pita | Oct 20, 2000 03:11pm | #259
*Ken, you're right, my pics will slow down your response time, but it should not have affected it THAT much. There is more information to download that your computer has to work on to decode, when compared to a post without pics, but this would happen with any picture of an equivelant size. Posting a line drawing such as your sketches or Joe's CAD stuff will be smaller, and hence quicker. It is one of the reasons I try to avoid the method if I can. If people are really that ineterested, they can click on an attachment.What Joe and I were talking about was overhead on Taunton's server. Joe's idea is that by placing a picture on another server and creating a tag to reference it, it creates less work for the Taunton machine. This may be true, but I don't think it's true in the respect he thinks it is. I know, I shouldn't try to guess what the man thinks. But, here it is. Joe, I am sure, will correct me if I'm wrong. Joe thinks that by having an image source on another server, the FH server will not have to store the image. This is true - it cuts down on storage overhead. But, it will still have to process the image, and the fact that it is coming from an outside source means that the processing takes just a bit longer - it has to request and receive the image. So, you're saving storage overhead, but you're increasing overhead for the server's processor & communications links (instead of just one link to put out to you, it also needs one to request and receive the image from the external server) - and processor power is slightly more costly than storage. So, on an overall level, Joe's method and mine are placing similar levels of demands upon the Taunton server - in terms of overall cost. What differences there are will be negligible, until looked at on a storage vs. processor level. None of this affects how fast your computer will respond, however - it is all on the backend, and by the time you see the page it is already done. It is performed in the time between when you request the page and when you see it on your screen - when your Explorer window status bar says "Opening page ..."Whew, longer than I expected, but I hope this clears things up. Oh, and what Mike was talking about - if you play with your Breaktime preferences (one of the gold buttons above or below) you can view an outline of the thread, and pick to read those posts you have not seen.

Ken_Drake | Oct 20, 2000 03:13pm | #260
*I've just got to try Mr. Pita's method one more time. If it comes up I'll leave it to show how to visualize the relationship between a common rafter and a hip rafter in a 9/12 roof at a 90 degree corner<imgsrc="http://webx.taunton.com/WebX?233@@.eead543/269!enclosure=.eeb0b03"width="599"height="521">Well, as you can see, I failed again but I'll leave it up there for someone to see and let me know what I'm doing wrong.

Ken_Drake | Oct 20, 2000 03:28pm | #261
* Mike, Mr. Pita, AJ,Thanks guys, very good. Changing to OUTLINE as suggested.Ken

Mr._Pita | Oct 20, 2000 03:40pm | #262
*Take out the line breaks and don't forget the right caret (>). Also put a space in between your variables:width="599"height="521" should bewidth="599" height="521" Oh, and keep your fingers crossed. :)

Ken_Drake | Oct 20, 2000 04:20pm | #263
*Thanks for all the patience guys, looks like I've finally got it.

Mr._Pita | Oct 20, 2000 04:26pm | #264
*Whoo-hoo!! :)

Ken_Drake | Oct 20, 2000 05:00pm | #265
*One bronze statue of Mr. Pita in front of Stooge Headquarters, on order.Moe

Ken_Drake | Oct 20, 2000 11:19pm | #266
*Mike,One thing that we haven't touched upon since you introduced this thread, is acceptable spans for both the 4x8 exposed rafters, as well as for the 6x10 ridge beam.Laying on the ground, that 6x10 ridge beam may look really "beefy" to you, and seem like it can support the world on its shoulders. Keep in mind that it has its limitations, as all roof members do. If it starts to sag with time, something has to give, and it's usually the walls being pushed out from the house. Not a good senario.The 4x8 rafters have their limitations also. 17' is a lot of span, and keep in mind that the thickness, 4", doesn't add as much strength as the width, 7 1/4" apparently. Also, they have the additional burden of carrying the weight of the porch rafters, which must be taken into consideration. You haven't mentioned the On Center spacing for these rafters.I hope that you have had an engineer look at this. If not, do so by all means. We're talking a lot of time, money, and energy here Mike, and I'd hate to see the end result fail.In posting this here, I hope that others more experienced in this type of construction will comment. I'll display the old drawing I made for you showing the cross section of the roof, which is correct, except for the fact that the 17" run is to the center of the ridge board, not the face, as I originally thought.

Joe_Fusco_ | Oct 20, 2000 11:45pm | #267
*Mr, Pita,

You are correct, I will correct you if I think you're wrong. I do. The work of displaying the graphic has nothing to do with the TP sever, it has to do with your browser, and link it's executing. The sever only has to "store" your post. If you store a post and a graphic you create more overhead. You create a lot by first writing a post to store the graphic, then deleting it, then posting a new one to display the graphic you just stored on the sever. The sever stores your deleted post, the graphic and new post to display the graphic, sounds like overhead to me. . . .

View Image © 1999-2000"He who fights with monsters should look to it that he himself does not become a monster. And when you gaze long into an abyss the abyss also gazes into you." Friedrich W. Nietzsche

Mike_McNally | Oct 21, 2000 12:42am | #268
*Ken, I guess we are still alive . I had an architect draw up the final plans so I feek comfortable with his support system.In our area any house over 1500 sq ft has to have the stamp of either an architect or an engineer.I dont know what the requirements are in the other areas. Be interesting to receive some posts concerning this topic.Mike

Mike_McNally | Oct 21, 2000 02:30am | #269
*Kenyour post did not show up .# 278 is the last one I have.Mike

blue_eyed_devil_ | Oct 21, 2000 03:00am | #270
*Ken, my problem with the construction master is only the beginning. I use my calculator for a wide variety of tasks and I have a hard time figuring out how to use that master for "normal" tasks.In this instance, I prefer the KISS approach, especially since it works for me. I'd have to carry two calculators and I don't want anythging else in my bags. I am very particular how my calculators work. I need the memory and memory clear to be seperate buttons and I don't want anymore buttons than that. Occasionally a +/- button comes in handy. I need a sqrt and that's about it.If I'm heavy into calculating, I find that I can't even mentally calculate simple numbers. Luckily, I haven't been too into calculating though and my mental process is returning.I'm sure I'll never change.blue

Mike_McNally | Oct 21, 2000 05:28am | #271
*Ken,Sorry I missed the attachment on your post 276 and didnt realize this was the one you were talking about.The rafters are going to be spaced 48oc. The system is not the ordinary roof system. First by hanging the rafters from the ridge I can eliminate most of the outward thrust. Collar ties will be bolted to each rafter on both sides.. The ridge will be supported all the way to the basement at about 10' intervals and will carry 1/2 of the roof load. The other half will be carried by the 2x6 wall.Only 4' of load for the porch rafters will be carried by the bottom half of the main rafters due to the pony wall. Reduction of snow load for our area based on the roof pitch has been considered in the computations.Only one half of the house will be open from floor to ceiling.The other half[bedrooms etc] will all be tied together by normal construction methods. The insulating panels are structural in nature and can handle tremendous spans eg,church roof systems etc. I drew up the plans for the house and gave them to an architect and he did the formal thing ie, computing loads, spans etc.I hope this is what you were looking for.

Ken_Drake | Oct 21, 2000 01:05pm | #272
*Mike,Sounds good. I guess we've got this roof pretty well hammered.

Ken_Drake | Oct 21, 2000 01:26pm | #273
*Blue,I understand your points.I have a Texas Instruments calculator, (about $13) that I used to use quite a bit, but over time, I have found ways to "trick" my Construction Master Calc. into doing the calculations that I was using it for, so I seldom use it anymore.We each have found what "works for us"

The_Tennis_Court_Builder_...on_t | Oct 21, 2000 05:52pm | #274
*This is a great thread...It's amazing that through perserverance, forced hugs, and lots of humor we are all seeing semi-eye to eye and b enjoying the yak fest!Thanks to all the stooges and stoogettes, near the stream,aj

Ken_Drake | Oct 21, 2000 06:04pm | #275
*AJ,Come to think of it, there are no official Stoogettes in the Club. Well probably be getting a call soon from one of those big gov't agencies that deal will sex disciminationMr. Pita,I've tried to e-mail you several times, but it keeps coming back. Something to do with your server being overloaded or somethingMoe

blue_eyed_devil_ | Oct 21, 2000 06:36pm | #276
*The only reason that we are getting along is because that meanie joe got his buttwhupped (again) and ran off with the lumber that we were going to use for the full size hip. That other hip that Schemp built will just have to do, but I think it needs ice and water shield.blue

Mike_McNally | Oct 21, 2000 08:28pm | #277
*Ken, if you get any complaints from the gov pls fwd them to me. I lived in DC for 15 years and have many contacts.On second thought a Stoogett or so might be very pleasing to have around at our monthly meeting. How the hell do you trick a calculator? Im sure the mfg would like to know.Blue, Please stop finding faults with my roof. Im almost out of money and now I have to put an ice shield on it? Do you want to come down ,up or over and help me finish it. If you do please bring a 24' ladder as the porch ended up a little higher than I expected. Hope to see you soon. Mike

Mr._Pita | Oct 23, 2000 04:42pm | #278
*Well, you lost me. I don't know where you got deleting posts from, but I guess it doesn't matter anyways. I edit my posts to add the embedded image, so I am adding the storage overhead to TP server, while you put that overhead on another server. I still think the image will go 'through' TP server if it's stored there, or say on your site. I don't worry about loading the TP server with overhead, because they already opened (and accepted) that possibility by giving us the attachment option. Anyhow, your method works for you, my method works for me. Good talking to you, see ya around.Mr. Pita

Joe_Fusco_ | Oct 23, 2000 11:15pm | #279
*Mr Pita,

One way to use the stored graphic is to post a blank message with an attachment then delete the post. The graphic is not deleted when you delete the post. You then just save the graphic location and use it as a link in the new message. . .What's more interesting to me is that you have said nothing about completely misstating the way graphics are generated. Do you still believe that they are generated the way you stated previously?

View Image © 1999-2000"The first step towards vice is to shroud innocent actions in mystery, and whoever likes to conceal something sooner or later has reason to conceal it." Aristotle

John_Sprung | Oct 23, 2000 11:37pm | #280
*Even though I have a masters degree in math, I like this solution the best. It fits the rafter to the actual rather than theoretical conditions.-- J.S.

Joe_Fusco_ | Oct 24, 2000 01:35am | #281
*John,

Then we/I definitely would like to hear more from you!

View Image © 1999-2000"The first step towards vice is to shroud innocent actions in mystery, and whoever likes to conceal something sooner or later has reason to conceal it." Aristotle

Ken_Drake | Oct 24, 2000 01:50am | #282
*To John Sprung,Could you kindly explain, what you mean by the statement you made in your previous post,"Even though I have a masters degree in math, I like this solution the best. It fits the rafter to the actual rather than theoretical conditions." Are you sure you are posting in the correct thread?Moe

Joe_Fusco_ | Oct 24, 2000 02:01am | #283
*Moe,

You would need an explanation, LOL

View Image © 1999-2000"He who fights with monsters should look to it that he himself does not become a monster. And when you gaze long into an abyss the abyss also gazes into you." Friedrich W. Nietzsche

Ken_Drake | Oct 24, 2000 02:35am | #284
*Listen Mr. Sprung with your Pedigree in Mathemathics, you've got both Joe and me laughing at the same time, and that's not allowed in Breaktime.So get serious, and even sober if necessary, and splain us what in the world you are talking about.Moe

Joe_Fusco_ | Oct 24, 2000 03:59am | #285
*Moe,

Your true colors always come out. . .

View Image © 1999-2000"He who fights with monsters should look to it that he himself does not become a monster. And when you gaze long into an abyss the abyss also gazes into you." Friedrich W. Nietzsche

JRS | Oct 24, 2000 04:40am | #286
*Ken,I've stayed out of this discussion mainly because I am not married to only one type of rafter calculation. I have used a rafter square and no calculater (pencil math), "stepped off" with a rafter square, trig and a cheapo calculator, a Consruction calculator(which I really like}, and the string line method. I've used the string line many times when it was the most expediant. Don't know why anyone would hold that method in disdain. One thing about the string line method-it's like taking your baseboard and casing directly to it's location and marking directly on the piece-it eliminates a step or two which in turn reduces the chances for error. This is the point which I believe John is trying to make-sobriety has nothing to do with it.One observation I'm surprised no one mentioned in this thread (at least I didn't see it!) was that if one turns a corner with rafters of indenticle rise and run (commons) and places them close enough together(like the spokes of a wheel), you end up with a radius. Yet another elegant way to solve the original proposition. John

splintergroupie_ | Oct 24, 2000 05:46am | #287
*Dear Stooges Extraordinaire,Please find enclosed my pitch for Stoogette status. I realize that i know jack about roof framing, but my hips rise and run with the best. Joe has called me D***F*** on several occasions now, completing the name-calling portion of the requirements, and my dues are paid into the next century. Perhaps you might consider a minor position, say in Limerick Concessions, or an apprenticeship to the Master Jester, brother of Booger.The Pitch: Moe: Is it sex dissemination you are having trouble with? (Why are the police involved?) I could help you mind your p's and q's, as well as several other letters.i (Well probably be getting a call soon from one of those big gov't agencies that deal will sex discimination)Shemp: I have extra ice shield left over from repairing the storm door; it's yours if you want it.Larry: I will buy you a whole damn Great Lake of your choosing and throw in my mother's brewery if you'll hug Joe in my place.Curly: I can blow smoke--will this suffice for Stooge purposes for killing time?Sincerely, splintergroupieP.S.: Shall i call you or will you call me?

blue_eyed_devil_ | Oct 24, 2000 11:32am | #288
*...anyways John, what is the difference between the actual, and the theoretical?blue

blue_eyed_devil_ | Oct 24, 2000 11:33am | #289
*Of course you would Joe! You'd like to hear from anyone that will help you in your quest to silence the stooges!curly

blue_eyed_devil_ | Oct 24, 2000 11:35am | #290
*Mikey! You also forget to use sill anchors!http://webx.taunton.com/WebX?233@@.eead14c/57!enclosure=.eeb1d66The damn roof blew away. Now we have to start this thread all over again...And Joe found an ally. Frick and Frack...blue

blue_eyed_devil_ | Oct 24, 2000 11:37am | #291
*That's kinda what I was wondering Ken.I think Joe was out barhopping last nite and paid some sucker to post that...blue

Mike_McNally | Oct 24, 2000 12:45pm | #292
*Blue,That was the first time I did it. The second time I used glue and it is holding up right well.Shemp

Joe_Fusco_ | Oct 24, 2000 01:01pm | #293
*DF,

Actually it was Gabe who gave you the moniker. I'm just now using it because it fits you so well.

View Image © 1999-2000"He who fights with monsters should look to it that he himself does not become a monster. And when you gaze long into an abyss the abyss also gazes into you." Friedrich W. Nietzsche

Joe_Fusco_ | Oct 24, 2000 01:05pm | #294
*Curly,

You should know better. . . Well maybe not. I'm not a pack animal like you stooges. I live and die in my own shoes. You should try it, might make a men out of you. . . LOL

View Image © 1999-2000"He who fights with monsters should look to it that he himself does not become a monster. And when you gaze long into an abyss the abyss also gazes into you." Friedrich W. Nietzsche

Ken_Drake | Oct 24, 2000 01:53pm | #295
*John Sprung,The point I was attempting to make was that your post "Even though I have a masters degree in math, I like this solution the best. It fits the rafter to the actual rather than theoretical conditions.", didn't seem to fit into the discussion at the time. I had no idea what or to which post you were referring to, as the posts preceeding it made no reference to a "solution"Just kidding about the "Pedigree" thing. I also have a degree in math, which Joe once referred to as my Pedigree. I was just passing on the humor.Ken

Mr._Pita | Oct 24, 2000 02:41pm | #296
*Ken, John is replying to Joe's first post on this thread. The fact that you don't see it as a reply tells that it is due to the way you have your preferences set at TP. There are two ways to view a discussion. One way is to see it as a streaming conversation, where the posts appear only in the time order they were made. This is the view you have. The other way, which I have, shows conversations with subsets of conversations underneath. In this method, as a thread runs off on tangents (like Joe & I disagreeing on picture posting) it is easier to follow. Your method will show this as message 307, while mine will show this as message '150.1'. When you look at an outline of the thread you will see a single level. When Ilook at an outline, I will see indentations at each level of response, returning to the primary level when the response is to the original post.

Mr._Pita | Oct 24, 2000 02:49pm | #297
*OK, Joe, I have no disillusions about how graphics are displayed. When I said the server processed pictures before, I can understand how you thought I was saying something else. What I meant by processing is grabbing the image information off of the storage, and 'pipelining' the information to an individual's PC, so it fits in with the formatting of everything else on the web page. The individual PC then takes that information and decodes it to display the picture in its proper place.Even though the 'process' the server does is simple, it is still a processing stream that must be handled, which adds overhead. So I stand by what I said above.Sorry for any confusion I caused.

Joe_Fusco_ | Oct 24, 2000 04:28pm | #298
*Mr Pita,

This is the equivalent of what you said last time. . . nothing. I vote we drop it, you agree?

View Image © 1999-2000"He who fights with monsters should look to it that he himself does not become a monster. And when you gaze long into an abyss the abyss also gazes into you." Friedrich W. Nietzsche

Mr._Pita | Oct 24, 2000 04:41pm | #299
*Fair enough for me. See ya around?

The_Tennis_Court_Builder_...on_t | Oct 24, 2000 06:38pm | #300
*SP...Got a lake already but I'll take the brewery...Serve it up...I may have ta watch out for getting a major nuygy from my buddy though...Hey Math Master...you wasted some serious dough at school if ya can't figure out what's hip and what's not around here.near the conductive one with all my radiance streaming throughout the breaktime universe,aj

John_Sprung | Oct 24, 2000 10:01pm | #301
*Mr. Pita, you have it right. I hit the reply button attached to a very early message which included drawings for using the block and string method to fit the rafter to a pre-existing ridge and plate. I still think that's a good way to tell a DIY to do it. It may take longer, but that's OK for a guy who may only cut rafters two or three times in his life. Of course, for a production framer who cuts rafters every other week, it's well worth the one-time overhead of learning faster methods.As to Blue's question about the difference between theoretical and actual, if you're real good, it's usually under an eighth of an inch.When an architect or whoever does CAD drawings, that's theoretical. When you do rafter calculations in inches to four decimal places, that's theoretical. When real carpenters build with real lumber, and you measure the results, that's actual. These differences (I don't like the word errors here) are cumulative, and when you get to that last piece that closes a loop of dimensions, they can add up to enough to be disappointing the first few times you do it -- especially for a DIY.So, a method that just fits the rafter to the place it really goes is a nice way of not having to deal with all that.Finally, I really don't want to get typed as an ally of Joe. He's right about some things and wrong about others (the pitch of the roof deck between the hip rafters will be greater than, not the same as, the pitch of the hip rafters). Blue's absolutely right about anger management. But psychology and roof framing are what back in the language of mathematics we would call orthogonal issues -- a fancy way of saying that they don't affect each other at all.-- J.S.

Joe_Fusco_ | Oct 24, 2000 10:51pm | #302
*J.S.,

"Finally, I really don't want to get typed as an ally of Joe. He's right about some things and wrong about others (the pitch of the roof deck between the hip rafters will be greater than, not the same as, the pitch of the hip rafters). Blue's absolutely right about anger management. But psychology and roof framing are what back in the language of mathematics we would call orthogonal issues -- a fancy way of saying that they don't affect each other at all."

First thanks for your input. Second, I'm not signing up any "allies" and do not recall asking for any. If you have a degree in mathematics it would be a great help in some of the discussion here and that's all. Nothing that I posted is "wrong" what is perceived is wrong. I said. . . once again that the hips of the dodecagon and the common of the main roof can be cut with the identical rafter. That's it. My point in using the word "same" is to say that the slopes of both lines hip and common are very close and that you could use the same "cut" to make all three rafters. One with 4 and the other 4-9/64" This ~1/8" can be lost in the saw cut alone. You people like answering questions that no ones asked.

View Image © 1999-2000"He who fights with monsters should look to it that he himself does not become a monster. And when you gaze long into an abyss the abyss also gazes into you." Friedrich W. Nietzsche

Mr._Pita | Oct 24, 2000 10:55pm | #303
*Ok, so to wrap up, does anyone know what this is:U UU U ?

splintergroupie_ | Oct 25, 2000 01:21am | #304
*Breast augmentation?Don't do it, Mr. Pita! It entirely messes up the way the suspenders fit.

blue_eyed_devil_ | Oct 25, 2000 02:49am | #305
*Joe, baaaaaaaaa baaaaaaaaaaaaa,I don't want to be a man. I'd rather be a mouse. Have you ever heard a mouse complaining about prostrate cancer?blue

blue_eyed_devil_ | Oct 25, 2000 02:56am | #306
*I'm not ready to wrap this thread up. Joe just lost his ally, and Mikey claims to have glued his roof down, in lieu of anchor bolts. There's so much ground to cover.Mr Math claims were going to be off an 1/8" between theroretical and actual.....I don't know.Anyways Mr Pita, I'm quite sure that i'm looking at a dead horse.blue

Ken_Drake | Oct 25, 2000 01:23pm | #307
*Mr. Pita,4 Stooges waiting for a cold one??????

Mr._Pita | Oct 25, 2000 03:10pm | #308
*Bird's eye view of a dead horse. Blue is correct. Mebbe we're looking at it from Mike's roof?

blue_eyed_devil_ | Oct 26, 2000 01:58am | #309
*Mr Pita, what do I win for that?blue

Ken_Drake | Oct 26, 2000 04:25am | #310
*Mr. Pita,You do owe when you ask questions like that. That's the bad news.The good news? Just mail Curly an Original MilkBone for Large Dogs, and he'll be happy, for his correct response. I still think it looks like 4 Stooges waiting on a cold one.Moe

The_Tennis_Court_Builder_...on_t | Oct 26, 2000 07:56am | #311
*Had my cold ones after Vball tonight....Am out....near the stream,Larry

Mr._Pita | Oct 26, 2000 03:42pm | #312
*You can have the pleasure of unveiling my bronze statue in front of Stooge HQ. Ask Moe, he's in charge of it I think. Or do you wanna Milk Bone?

Ken_Drake | Oct 27, 2000 01:43am | #313
*Mr. Pita,It's a nonbrainer, he'll go for the milkbone.But don't send and imitations, Blue is very particular about adding to his collection.If you really want to make an impression, throw in a chewy toy.

blue_eyed_devil_ | Oct 27, 2000 03:22am | #314
*Screw that statue idea! I want the milkbone!Anything to make my collection grow!blue

Mike_McNally | Oct 27, 2000 03:30am | #315
*Ken, Did you remember to get the band for the ceremony? I was thinking along the line of Henry Mancini. I saw him direct the National Symphony on the steps of the Capital when I lived in DC. Maybe he will write a special tune for the ocassion.Mike

blue_eyed_devil_ | Oct 27, 2000 03:33am | #316
*The hell with Henry Manqueeeny or whoever that is. Get Christine Agualerra and/or Brittney Spears. If they're hopping around, maybe even Joe will keep his mouth quiet!blue

Ken_Drake | Oct 27, 2000 03:57am | #317
*Mike,I gotta go with Curly on this one. Henry Mancini? Please Mike, you're really dating yourself with that call. Who's going to open for him, the Kingston Trio? The Association? Bill Haley and the Comets?In front of Stooge HQ? I don't think so.Moe

Mr._Pita | Oct 27, 2000 04:28pm | #318
*Blue, the Milk Bone is in the mail. (YEah, that's the ticket...)Your suggetstions for the cermony are not bad, but I think I should prefer Shania Twain, Faith Hill, or the Dixie Chicks - Just as pleasant to watch, more pleasant to listen to, and not exactly a jailbait problem either.

Mike_McNally | Oct 28, 2000 12:57pm | #319
*Ken, Blue and Mr Pita,Your right, bad choice. I may be 62 but Im not dead yet.[ Im one of 13 and my dad passed 90% of his genes on to me.That combined with my viagra tabs make for a very active life]. I put a couple of calls in to Christine and Britney and they were estatic at being asked to perform. Chris said she would wear the same dress she had on at the award ceremonies a bit back.They both said they would bunk up with me so there is no need to make any reservations for them.Anything else we forgot?Mike

Mike_McNally | Oct 28, 2000 12:59pm | #320
*Guys,You never know where a hip roof is going to take you!Mike

Mike_McNally | Oct 28, 2000 01:16pm | #321
*MrPita,Do you prefer a full form statue or one that is a little more modest?As Treasurer, I have to shell out the bucks and the more clothing, the more expensive.Mike

The_Tennis_Court_Builder_...on_t | Oct 28, 2000 03:15pm | #322
*Here's the proch roofs I imagined....

Mike_McNally | Oct 28, 2000 09:26pm | #323
*ajSimilar but only 3 turns and it is on the first floor. Both pictures were the same. Was this what you intended?mike

Ken_Drake | Oct 29, 2000 03:41am | #324
*Mike,If you take another look at the roof that Larry is showing in his photos, you will see only TWO 45 degree turns, not THREE as you mention in your last post. Once again, the correct way to frame this corner, assuming that you want the roof pitches to remain equal as you turn it, is to insert 1/4th of a regular polygon, in this case, 1/4th of a regular octagon, as the photo indicates.The result is two equal, regular hips, very similar to the method I suggested for turning the corner for your dodecagon porch corner. ( the roof pitch of course, does not affect the outcome. ) I'll leave the rest of this post to your imagination.Moe

Joe_Fusco_ | Oct 29, 2000 01:05pm | #325
*Moe,

To get any regular polygon to match the pitch of the roof it joins is to simply circumscribe it using the plan length of the common rafter.This way the perpendicular bisector equals the length of the common rafter in plan. If you inscribe the line that bisects the vertex angle is the same length as the common rafter.

View Image © 1999-2000"He who fights with monsters should look to it that he himself does not become a monster. And when you gaze long into an abyss the abyss also gazes into you." Friedrich W. Nietzsche

Ken_Drake | Oct 29, 2000 03:17pm | #326
*Joe,Are you suggesting that you would frame the corner in AJ's photo differently than I show in my roof plan sketch?

blue_eyed_devil_ | Oct 29, 2000 04:17pm | #327
*Hey! I think this debate has taken on a new life!Awesome!Even though I don't know if either of you are saying something defferent, or saying the same thing, I'm going to have to agree with Moe, becuase the stooges stick together!Please, Joe, I prefer to be deep fried, rather than roasted!curley

Mike_McNally | Oct 29, 2000 06:51pm | #328
*Ken,I think I didnt make my post clear. I was refering to the 3 turns as the one I will be using.I will be using 3 hips.MikeMike

Mike_McNally | Oct 29, 2000 06:56pm | #329
*Ken Wanted to let you know that your drawing came through both as a part of the post and as an attachmentMike

Ken_Drake | Oct 29, 2000 08:46pm | #330
*Mike,Re: "your drawing came through both as a part of the post and as an attachment"All of my drawings come thru this way, and will continue to do so until I use a different method."blame" it all on Mr. Pita. Joe,Re your last post: "To get any regular polygon to match the pitch of the roof it joins is to simply circumscribe it using the plan length of the common rafter. This way the perpendicular bisector equals the length of the common rafter in plan. If you inscribe the line that bisects the vertex angle is the same length as the common rafter."That's exactly what I see that leads you into creating irregular hips. You are forcing the hip rafter run to equal the common rafter run in the existing roof.I'm not clear what you mean by "the perpendicular bisector equals the length of the common". It appears from your drawing that what you really mean is the ANGLE BISECTOR. The only perpendicular bisector that you have indicated in your drawing is in the lower left quadrant, which you haven't dimensioned.Ken

The_Tennis_Court_Builder_...on_t | Oct 29, 2000 08:48pm | #331
*Hey monster boy....Your eyes must see what mine do not in the pics I posted....Ken's drawn it...You're back singing the same old tune....The hips are not at 90 degrees to the rest of the porch roof. And it is part of an octagon not dodecagon.near the stream thinking you better get the ball of string and toss the CAD software,aj

Joe_Fusco_ | Oct 29, 2000 08:51pm | #332
*Moe,

Are you illiterate or is the scope of your mathematical knowledge contained inside a CM4? Did you even understand what I said?

View Image © 1999-2000"The first step towards vice is to shroud innocent actions in mystery, and whoever likes to conceal something sooner or later has reason to conceal it." Aristotle

blue_eyed_devil_ | Oct 29, 2000 08:57pm | #333
*Yeah Joe Schmoe!Ken is right, now go kick your dog!well you better dig it up first to kick it (I'm relatively certain you stomped it to death in a fit of rage, after you found out Ken whupped you again in roof framing 101!blue, err I mean Curley

Joe_Fusco_ | Oct 29, 2000 09:01pm | #334
*Moe,

"I'm not clear what you mean by "the perpendicular bisector equals the length of the common". It appears from your drawing that what you really mean is the ANGLE BISECTOR. The only perpendicular bisector that you have indicated in your drawing is in the lower left quadrant, which you haven't dimensioned."

You're kidding right?

View Image © 1999-2000"The first step towards vice is to shroud innocent actions in mystery, and whoever likes to conceal something sooner or later has reason to conceal it." Aristotle

Joe_Fusco_ | Oct 29, 2000 09:09pm | #335
*Ton-ah,

Have I said you were an adirondackJack-ass lately? Well if I haven't. . . you're a adirondackJack-ass. Lol, lol, lol. Your brains must run out into that stream. Lol, lol, lol.Do you even know what I'm talking about? I guess not because you're a adirondackJack-ass. Lol, lol, lol

View Image © 1999-2000"The first step towards vice is to shroud innocent actions in mystery, and whoever likes to conceal something sooner or later has reason to conceal it." Aristotle

The_Tennis_Court_Builder_...on_t | Oct 29, 2000 09:09pm | #336
*Monster boy....The shroud must be over your head as well as basic roof geometry. You are indeed confusing forever the common rafters and the hip rafters....Or as they are now being referred to as angle bisectors and perpendicular bisectors.You are half off and that's all there is to it.Near the stream,ajGet your buddies Gabe and ______? to jump in...Just pickin on you is getting boring. Hey Mike Smith!...Chime in! Any brave hearts in the crowd?....Joe...Get your Uncle Vinny...

Joe_Fusco_ | Oct 29, 2000 09:13pm | #337
*Ton-ah,

It's true. . . You do speak form both holes!! Lol, Lol, lol.

View Image © 1999-2000"The first step towards vice is to shroud innocent actions in mystery, and whoever likes to conceal something sooner or later has reason to conceal it." Aristotle

The_Tennis_Court_Builder_...on_t | Oct 29, 2000 09:14pm | #338
*Go play with your ball a string for awhile....Come back when ya got the knots out of it. JF....or is it FJ as in F#cking j#erk.Hey maybe we can now be pals if I call ya names to(o)!Near the stream and glad you're not!aj

The_Tennis_Court_Builder_...on_t | Oct 29, 2000 09:15pm | #339
*From FJ...not form...

Joe_Fusco_ | Oct 29, 2000 09:23pm | #340
*Ton-ah,

You're feeling the pressure now. LOL, LOL, LOL.

View Image © 1999-2000"The first step towards vice is to shroud innocent actions in mystery, and whoever likes to conceal something sooner or later has reason to conceal it." Aristotle

The_Tennis_Court_Builder_...on_t | Oct 29, 2000 09:28pm | #341
*Pressure is tooooooo much!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!1I relent.....I repent.....Joe....You da man....Ya....Great form....Pulling the shroud back over me now....Humble....think humble....near the stream....gonna drown the cat,ajLOL LLOLOOLKLO OL O LOLOOLL OL LOL OLLO LOL OLL OL OL LOOLL HHEHHEHE H HSH HHAHAHA HAHA HA HAHAH HHE HEHE HAHAHA HH HOIHO HHOHOHOH HHOHHOHOHOHOOHHOH H HOO HOOH HA A HA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!Smokin Joe....Ya....crack....tough to work with that ball of string when you're on that pipe rippin it up!

Joe_Fusco_ | Oct 29, 2000 09:29pm | #342
*Curly,

Na, I just look at some more of your framing and laugh my ass off. LOL, LOL, LOL.

View Image © 1999-2000"The first step towards vice is to shroud innocent actions in mystery, and whoever likes to conceal something sooner or later has reason to conceal it." Aristotle

Joe_Fusco_ | Oct 29, 2000 09:33pm | #343
*Ton-ah,

As Cus Vinny would say. . . "I'm through with this one!" LOL, LOL, LOL.Hope your near the stream... LOL, LOL, LOL.

View Image © 1999-2000"The first step towards vice is to shroud innocent actions in mystery, and whoever likes to conceal something sooner or later has reason to conceal it." Aristotle

The_Tennis_Court_Builder_...on_t | Oct 29, 2000 09:36pm | #344
*Just in....New super speed roof cutting by FJ....b Silly string it! Yes, just aim and fire...no need to climb the ladder twice to put your geometry string up....Works on any pitch, even those hard to figure something-a-gons....It's a miracle really and gee, I must say it took many hours of research to perfect the idea...But hey...It may save the world and if it does...why I'm just humbled by the whole experience, but I'll take the credit justly deserved....I may someday save even the stooges...a strange group of believers in matching commons verses hips to commons....Love to all that follow me and the incinerator for rest I say!To(o) Near myself,FJ

Joe_Fusco_ | Oct 29, 2000 09:48pm | #345
*Ton-ah,

You mean silly putty, like your brain! LOL, LOL, LOL.

View Image © 1999-2000"The first step towards vice is to shroud innocent actions in mystery, and whoever likes to conceal something sooner or later has reason to conceal it." Aristotle

Joe_Fusco_ | Oct 29, 2000 11:17pm | #346
*Stooges

Pay attention now. . .

View Image © 1999-2000"He who fights with monsters should look to it that he himself does not become a monster. And when you gaze long into an abyss the abyss also gazes into you." Friedrich W. Nietzsche

Ken_Drake | Oct 29, 2000 11:51pm | #347
*Joe,THE STOOGES SHOULD PAY ATTENTION????????????I posted that information about 300 posts ago.I'm glad that the light has finally come on for you. Here it is again.

Joe_Fusco_ | Oct 29, 2000 11:52pm | #348
*Stooges,

Still paying attention?Quick. . . Moe! Get the CM4!! Larry fell in the stream and Curly 's hitting himself in the head with a hammer! LOL, LOL, LOL..... Throw it to Larry as a life preserver and Curly can use it to cushion the blows. . . LOL, LOL, LOL!!

View Image © 1999-2000"He who fights with monsters should look to it that he himself does not become a monster. And when you gaze long into an abyss the abyss also gazes into you." Friedrich W. Nietzsche

Joe_Fusco_ | Oct 29, 2000 11:58pm | #349
*Moe,

Not. . . LOL,LOL,LOL There you go . . . Kidding again! You don't have information like this. . . LOL,LOL,LOL You're a CM4 man remember!

View Image © 1999-2000"He who fights with monsters should look to it that he himself does not become a monster. And when you gaze long into an abyss the abyss also gazes into you." Friedrich W. Nietzsche

Ken_Drake | Oct 30, 2000 12:01am | #350
*Exactly Joe,And that's the one that you've been riding with for this entire thread, not the previous one. That's been my horse. It's a little late to start using my ideas, and trying to make them look like they're yours.

Joe_Fusco_ | Oct 30, 2000 12:16am | #351
*Moe,

How could I use the ideas of a person who is clue-less? You fell off your horse 325 threads ago. Like I said here. And here. And of course here. This stuff is 4000 years old! I doubt very much they're "your ideas". . . what a bozo remark! Now go blow up a bozo balloon. LOL, LOL, LOL.

View Image © 1999-2000"He who fights with monsters should look to it that he himself does not become a monster. And when you gaze long into an abyss the abyss also gazes into you." Friedrich W. Nietzsche

The_Tennis_Court_Builder_...on_t | Oct 30, 2000 12:30am | #352
*Joe!!! So nice of you to post a pic showing the length of your in hip commons to be shorter than they should be to have equal pitch with the main roof sections.Can't even see yet what ya can't see can ya Joe....LOL LOL LOL LOL...near the stream of tears!... I"M laughing so hard!ajQuick...untangle that string again!...LOL LOL LOL

blue_eyed_devil_ | Oct 30, 2000 12:36am | #353
*As the chief stooge here, I want to commend you ken for winning again. If I knew what you two were arguing about, I'd gladly explain why Moe is right.I will admit however that Joe's last post was extrememly funny. I especially like the part where I get to use the cm4 as a cushion!The technical award goes to Moe, for properly giving the figures for an 8' run. The Best Slappy goes to Joe for the cushion remark. I have to give the Best Web Graphics Displayer award to Joe. His beautifully illustrated posts almost convinced me until I remembered that an 8' run on a common, cannot also be an 8' run on a hip, if the pitch is equal. Of course, we are speaking technically and Joe has admitted that somewhat about 100 posts ago.Nice job fellas.blue. err I mean Curly

Joe_Fusco_ | Oct 30, 2000 12:38am | #354
*Ton-ah,

It's pointless. . . You are stuck in bozo-ville forever. . .

View Image © 1999-2000"He who fights with monsters should look to it that he himself does not become a monster. And when you gaze long into an abyss the abyss also gazes into you." Friedrich W. Nietzsche

Ken_Drake | Oct 30, 2000 12:40am | #355
*Yeah Joe,I remember your drawings of the same dodecagon that you have posted over and over and over and over, what about 20 times in this thread? Now, if you just learn to apply the information that your drawings convey to the real world, we can move on.

Joe_Fusco_ | Oct 30, 2000 12:49am | #356
*Moe,

The same??? There not the same, one is yours and one is mine. You went the only route you knew how. I like to look at all the possibilities. I think. . ., and you press buttons. You can't move forward, you don't know how. Can't wait for the book. . .So, Einstein, just how much of a difference does 9/64" make to a guy like the butcher? If he had one that read 4" and one that read 4-1/8" what do you think he'd do. Lets ask him. . . .Hack Master. . . What would you do?

View Image © 1999-2000"He who fights with monsters should look to it that he himself does not become a monster. And when you gaze long into an abyss the abyss also gazes into you." Friedrich W. Nietzsche

blue_eyed_devil_ | Oct 30, 2000 01:19am | #357
*Joe, my eyes are so bad, I wouldn't notice the difference.I'd just float them in and keep on nailing.And, as I've said before, your solution is okay, as long as you make the appropriate disclaimers. If you don't make the appropriate disclaimers, a novice might just use your formula and go to work tomorrow and cut some 100' long 12" x 24" finished archetectural grade glulams for the church he is working on.Would your formula work for those 100' beams?blue, aka Curly the whoodwhacker.

Joe_Fusco_ | Oct 30, 2000 01:27am | #358
*Curly,

Actually the longer the member the better it is. The present (%) of error decreases when divided by the overall length of the member.The intersection point of the common on the dodecagon is 1-3/32" lower then the hip of same. Consider that the commons on the dodecagon are going to be jacks that intersect the hips. . . All one would do is lift a-little and bingo. . . a perfect fit. I thought it was pretty cool that you could do it all with one template and be good enough for a Master Boogerer!! Don't You?P.S. My two favorite words are "Nail It!!" LOL.

View Image © 1999-2000"He who fights with monsters should look to it that he himself does not become a monster. And when you gaze long into an abyss the abyss also gazes into you." Friedrich W. Nietzsche

blue_eyed_devil_ | Oct 30, 2000 01:38am | #359
*Joe, I actually do like your solution and would definitly use it. I'm a boogerin' fool and don't usually fret about 1/4" in length on rafters. I'm not fond of 1 3/32 dips however! I suppose I could just shim it with a few chunks of 1/2 ply. Am I not understanding something though? I haven't actually done any of the math that you and Ken are doing. Are you saying that the hip would need a lift of 1 3/32 if you used the 1/4" short length hip? The numbers don't seem right, in my gut feeling.I'm also skeptical about your assertion that the error in a longer 100' rafter would be less. I again don't have any factual data to back up my thoughts except a gut feeling. My initial instinct would be to figure that the 100 ft beam is 12 times longer so therefore the error factor would increase 12 times. 12 x .25 = a 3" 3 error!curley

Joe_Fusco_ | Oct 30, 2000 02:18am | #360
*Curly,

Actually, we're both wrong. The present of error is the same, roughly 0.9666%. If you use 8' as a run and then 16' the error is still .9666%

Actually, I need to rephrase that. . . I was wrong. The present of error is the same, roughly 0.9666%. If you use 8' as a run and then 16' the error is still .9666%

View Image © 1999-2000"He who fights with monsters should look to it that he himself does not become a monster. And when you gaze long into an abyss the abyss also gazes into you." Friedrich W. Nietzsche

blue_eyed_devil_ | Oct 30, 2000 02:27am | #361
*I got Joe to admit he's wrong! Do I get the "grab the alligator by the tail and make him say uncle award"? blue

Ken_Drake | Oct 30, 2000 02:29am | #362
*Thread Quiz:Let's see if anyone is paying attention. First poster to correctly answer all of the following questions, wins 50 Original Milkbones plus Chewy Toy. 1) What are the official Stooge names for blue eyed devil, AdirondackJack, Mike McNally, and Ken Drake?2) Which one of the above is also referred to as Wood Butcher, Whoodwacker?3) Which one is the HackMaster?4) What is the name of the building that the four Stooges hold their meetings in?5) Who has a bronze statue in front of the meeting place of the 4 stooges?6) Where do the 4 Stooges vacation each year?

blue_eyed_devil_ | Oct 30, 2000 02:31am | #363
*Ken no fair! You're asking too hard of questions!I want to play, but I don't know most of them!blue

Joe_Fusco_ | Oct 30, 2000 02:32am | #364
*Curly,

Do you think it's hard for me to admit when I'm wrong? I admit my mistakes quite easily, unlike you and the stooge crew. I go to great lengths to get my information right, but in a heart beat, I'll admit when I'm wrong. You should try it. . . It makes me a better person maybe it will do the same for you. . . .

View Image © 1999-2000"He who fights with monsters should look to it that he himself does not become a monster. And when you gaze long into an abyss the abyss also gazes into you." Friedrich W. Nietzsche

Ken_Drake | Oct 30, 2000 02:35am | #365
*Sorry blue,Sometimes you just have to dig deep to find an answer.Moe

blue_eyed_devil_ | Oct 30, 2000 02:36am | #366
*Joe, I didn't insinuate that it is hard for you to admit a mistake. I did insinuate that I deserve a hero's welcome for attempting to get you to admit a mistake. Few would tread there.blue

Joe_Fusco_ | Oct 30, 2000 02:41am | #367
*Curly,

Just in case you missed it. You didn't get me to admit anything. . . I did it all on my own just like I always have done. Now get Ken to admit he's wrong then you can get the parade!!

View Image © 1999-2000"He who fights with monsters should look to it that he himself does not become a monster. And when you gaze long into an abyss the abyss also gazes into you." Friedrich W. Nietzsche

Joe_Fusco_ | Oct 30, 2000 02:45am | #368
*Moe,

I have a better question for the head stooge, but all are welcome to answer.What's the only thing you need to frame a roof with other then a saw, hammer and nails?

View Image © 1999-2000"He who fights with monsters should look to it that he himself does not become a monster. And when you gaze long into an abyss the abyss also gazes into you." Friedrich W. Nietzsche

blue_eyed_devil_ | Oct 30, 2000 02:47am | #369
*What's the only thing you need to frame a roof with other then a saw, hammer and nails?Wood?NYut, Nyut, nyut!curly

Joe_Fusco_ | Oct 30, 2000 02:54am | #370
*So Einstein,

If I give you just those 4 items and those 4 items alone you can frame a roof?P.S. I didn't think I really had to mention the wood, but then again look who I'm dealing with. . .

View Image © 1999-2000"He who fights with monsters should look to it that he himself does not become a monster. And when you gaze long into an abyss the abyss also gazes into you." Friedrich W. Nietzsche

blue_eyed_devil_ | Oct 30, 2000 02:57am | #371
*Joe, you said,i If I give you just those 4 items and those 4 items alone you can frame a roof?and my answer is...drum rolls please....b YES!BLUE

Mike_Smith | Oct 30, 2000 02:58am | #372
*...i no... i no...lemme..a framing sq ( or speed sq) and a tape long enough to measure the roof and a marking device either a pencil, marker, or striking awl...whaddid i miss ?

blue_eyed_devil_ | Oct 30, 2000 03:00am | #373
*Oh yeah, i forgot the block of wood, string and adjustable bevel....And don't forget the cm4 and the cad program.Sheesh, how did Jesus do it?blue

Joe_Fusco_ | Oct 30, 2000 03:01am | #374
*You are Einstein!

Are you sure. . . . . . . . . . .There will be a test!

View Image © 1999-2000"He who fights with monsters should look to it that he himself does not become a monster. And when you gaze long into an abyss the abyss also gazes into you." Friedrich W. Nietzsche

Joe_Fusco_ | Oct 30, 2000 03:02am | #375
*Mike,

You got way to much shit. . . I'm looking for the least amout of "stuff".

View Image © 1999-2000"He who fights with monsters should look to it that he himself does not become a monster. And when you gaze long into an abyss the abyss also gazes into you." Friedrich W. Nietzsche

Joe_Fusco_ | Oct 30, 2000 03:04am | #376
*Curly,

I don't need any of the stuff you just mentioned.

View Image © 1999-2000"He who fights with monsters should look to it that he himself does not become a monster. And when you gaze long into an abyss the abyss also gazes into you." Friedrich W. Nietzsche

blue_eyed_devil_ | Oct 30, 2000 03:07am | #377
*Joe, I could think of a thousand things you need; a plan, brains, a pumping heart, gravity,Just give us the answer you bozo hater!blue

Joe_Fusco_ | Oct 30, 2000 03:13am | #378
*Curly,

Nope. I'd just like to see what you guy's think you need. So, really what's the least you'd need?

View Image © 1999-2000"He who fights with monsters should look to it that he himself does not become a monster. And when you gaze long into an abyss the abyss also gazes into you." Friedrich W. Nietzsche

Ken_Drake | Oct 30, 2000 03:15am | #379
*A jobsite?

Ken_Drake | Oct 30, 2000 03:20am | #380
*Your Web Site?

Ken_Drake | Oct 30, 2000 03:21am | #381
*A fixed ridge board?

The_Tennis_Court_Builder_...on_t | Oct 30, 2000 03:22am | #382
*A ball a string.... a ladder.....a sky hook....near the edge of my seat,aj

Joe_Fusco_ | Oct 30, 2000 03:23am | #383
*Moe,

In your case yes. It would be a good place for a neophyte like you to start, but it's not at all necessary.

View Image © 1999-2000"He who fights with monsters should look to it that he himself does not become a monster. And when you gaze long into an abyss the abyss also gazes into you." Friedrich W. Nietzsche

Ken_Drake | Oct 30, 2000 03:25am | #384
*Walls?

The_Tennis_Court_Builder_...on_t | Oct 30, 2000 03:25am | #385
*I'm sure it has at least a ball of string involved...I'd bet all blue's milkbones...near the shroud of monster mystery,aj

Ken_Drake | Oct 30, 2000 03:28am | #386
*Big stack of 1 3/32" shims?

blue_eyed_devil_ | Oct 30, 2000 03:29am | #387
*Joe, I don't even need the saw and nails to "build" a roof! I watchd the discovery channel and learned how to build one from naked ladies with long flappy boobs. They use sticks and leaves.blue

Ken_Drake | Oct 30, 2000 03:33am | #388
*Light?

Mike_Smith | Oct 30, 2000 03:35am | #389
*aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaahhhh!the only thing you need to frame a roof with other then a saw, hammer and nails?____________________.watch out... this is a TRICK QUESTION...and only der fusco meister has the answer...ahm holdin out fer my framing sq.... and tape.....and markin device (pen knife'l do)they're.................comforting

Ken_Drake | Oct 30, 2000 03:37am | #390
*Mikeframing square and tape are not needed when TRIAL AND ERROR is an option.Your thinking is way to advanced to find the answer to Joe's question.

Joe_Fusco_ | Oct 30, 2000 03:39am | #391
*

You guy's wonder why I call you stooges, LOL, LOL, LOLI got a logo for you guy's. What do you think? LOL, LOL, LOL

View Image © 1999-2000"He who fights with monsters should look to it that he himself does not become a monster. And when you gaze long into an abyss the abyss also gazes into you." Friedrich W. Nietzsche

Ken_Drake | Oct 30, 2000 03:39am | #392
*Portapotty?

Ken_Drake | Oct 30, 2000 03:41am | #393
*I'm disappointed that it can't juke and jive and do a little dance Joe. Otherwise, not bad.

blue_eyed_devil_ | Oct 30, 2000 03:42am | #394
*He's a beaut Joe, and obviously a better roof framer than you. He keeps his formulas tucked into his hair.blue

Joe_Fusco_ | Oct 30, 2000 03:42am | #395
*Moe,

The trail and error thing was the ONLY thing you could do before you got the CM4, LOL, LOL LOL.

View Image © 1999-2000"He who fights with monsters should look to it that he himself does not become a monster. And when you gaze long into an abyss the abyss also gazes into you." Friedrich W. Nietzsche

Ken_Drake | Oct 30, 2000 03:44am | #396
*I don't really pwn a CM4. Couldn't afford one. I do everything by trial and error. Don't tell Shemp.

Joe_Fusco_ | Oct 30, 2000 04:04am | #397
*Moe,

Ok, that's obvious. So what do you use in the T&E method?

View Image © 1999-2000"He who fights with monsters should look to it that he himself does not become a monster. And when you gaze long into an abyss the abyss also gazes into you." Friedrich W. Nietzsche

Ken_Drake | Oct 30, 2000 12:05pm | #398
*JoeAssuming the wood is at the jobsite, I only needHammer, nails, and a handsaw.What else do YOU need? AutoCad 13, so you can draw it and post it about 50 times before you start? A copy of Roof Framing with the Stooges? Divine inspiration?HackMaster

Joe_Fusco_ | Oct 30, 2000 12:47pm | #399
*Hack Master. . .,

I'll ask the same thing to you. . . Is that all you need, just those three items to figure , cut and install any roof?

View Image © 1999-2000"He who fights with monsters should look to it that he himself does not become a monster. And when you gaze long into an abyss the abyss also gazes into you." Friedrich W. Nietzsche

JohnD_ | Oct 30, 2000 08:21pm | #400
*I got it!!!!! I got it!!!!! I got it!!!!! I got it!!!!! You have to have something to do the actual work! Moe, shemp, curley, or C-3PO

The_Tennis_Court_Builder_...on_t | Oct 30, 2000 08:33pm | #401
*Monster Quizes.....LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOLnear the stream thinking you're a monster bozo.ajCan ya cut a regular hip roof yet?....No?...Out of string? LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL.

Roger_Martini | Oct 30, 2000 08:33pm | #402
*Does anyone know what the threshold of visual distinguisability is for an 8' roof? Can I tell 4/12 from 4.125/12 by looking at it?What is the average error in roof pitch in the real world? If I aim for a 4/12 roof, should I be happy if it comes out 4.125/12? How does this answer change depending if I have Mike's vs. Blue's level of experience?Other than the difference in roof pitch from Joe's and Ken's approaches, are there other complications worth noting? I believe AJ mentioned soffits about 200 posts ago.No sides, I just want to know.

Mr._Pita | Oct 30, 2000 08:47pm | #403
*Roger, SAVE YOURSELF!! Get out of this thread before Moe, Larry, Curly, Shemp or Joe find you! It's the only way to save your sanity!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!It's too late for me, but not for you!

The_Tennis_Court_Builder_...on_t | Oct 30, 2000 08:54pm | #404
*Roger...Do you have your ball of string calibrated?near the stream,ajJoe...Send your string up and I'll get her tuned up so as it stops laying out all those iregular hips....LOL LOL LOL LOL

John_Sprung | Oct 30, 2000 10:41pm | #405
*>Does anyone know what the threshold of visual distinguisability is >for an 8' roof? Can I tell 4/12 from 4.125/12 by looking at it? This would depend on the context. On an 8 foot run, the difference in rise would be one inch. If we're talking about two buildings across the street from each other, there's no way you'd see it. On the other hand, if it happened mid-way through the run of the porch roof that the fascia drops an inch lower, that you'd see easily. Would anybody actually build it that way? Not for a house, maybe for an addition to a loading dock.-- J.S.

The_Tennis_Court_Builder_...on_t | Oct 30, 2000 10:50pm | #406
*John...The monster bozo boy with his ball of string!...Ya...his preferred and only way!LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOLLOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOLchuckling near the stream,aj

Ken_Drake | Oct 30, 2000 11:40pm | #407
*Joe,As usual, you're changing horses in the middle of the stream. Your original question was "what do you need to frame a roof besides hammer, nails and saw?"Now it's what do you need to "figure, cut, and install ANY roof". The second question has different implications than the first. What exactly do you mean by "figuring a roof?" I almost hate to ask you that. Please don't send me to your website to read about Modern Roof Framing. Been there done that. HackMaster

Mike_McNally | Oct 31, 2000 12:11am | #408
*Ken, Trial and error! I cant believe it. You mmean that I might have some problems with your plan? Just think what all those thousands of framers out there who are following this thread are going to think.Shemp

Joe_Fusco_ | Oct 31, 2000 12:15am | #409
*Roger,

There is none. It's all in one's ego.What the bozo is speaking about as far as the soffit goes is the fact that two roof members with different pitches are difficult to line up at the soffit. There is a physical space that it can be done, but once you pass it you can't. What the bozo forgot to mention is that no hip, valley or common rafter is at the same pitch. Simply by extending the line of any hip and common rafter, all commons will hit the ground before their counter part hip.One should pay little if any attention to adirondackJack-ass (aka Ton-ah) as possible. . . LOL,LOL,LOL.

View Image © 1999-2000"He who fights with monsters should look to it that he himself does not become a monster. And when you gaze long into an abyss the abyss also gazes into you." Friedrich W. Nietzsche

Ken_Drake | Oct 31, 2000 12:19am | #410
*Roger Martini,It's not so much a question of wether or not you can see the difference in an 8' roof, but rather, if you had an option of framing the roof in one of 2 different ways, which one would you choose, one that guarantees that all roof surfaces remain at the same pitch ( as my roof plan does ), or one that GUARANTEES that the roof pitches will VARY (as well as the overhang on the rafter tails), ( as Joe's roof plan does )Experienced roof framers have no trouble dealing with irregular roof situations, such as the one that Joe proposes. We do it on a regular basis. We know how to adjust. But I certainly wouldn't encourage an inexperienced framer to jump into it when a clear option of regular ( single pitch ) roof framing is available.Ken

Joe_Fusco_ | Oct 31, 2000 12:23am | #411
*Moe,

It's the same question. . . Other then a hammer to drive the nails into the wood that has been cut with the saw, what else would you need. I'd need just one more item. No books, tables, or devices that use solar or battery power. No squares of any kind with any information on it to figure the roof. No levels or plumb bobs. Just a frame waiting for a roof. How about you Godzilla??

View Image © 1999-2000"He who fights with monsters should look to it that he himself does not become a monster. And when you gaze long into an abyss the abyss also gazes into you." Friedrich W. Nietzsche

Joe_Fusco_ | Oct 31, 2000 12:40am | #412
*Moe,

Please don't talk about "experienced roof framers", you insult them. There are so many other variables that you never bother to mention in the ocean of numbers that you post every time someone asks a question about roofs. You throw them fish but never teach them to fish. . .How about. . . Is the building square?Is it level?Do the walls bow in or out?What's more important square or level? Never do you address these very rudimentary items simply because they'll make your CM4 numbers look like shit!

View Image © 1999-2000"He who fights with monsters should look to it that he himself does not become a monster. And when you gaze long into an abyss the abyss also gazes into you." Friedrich W. Nietzsche

The_Tennis_Court_Builder_...on_t | Oct 31, 2000 12:44am | #413
*Hey Joe F*cksco yourself....You and your buddy in the mirror playing with yourself and your ball of string?....LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOLCan't cut a roof to save your life, but great at looking like an ass calling fellow buddies at Breaktime asses...You're such a sick dude....LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOLnear the stream,aj

The_Tennis_Court_Builder_...on_t | Oct 31, 2000 12:48am | #414
*How about. . . Is the building square? Is it level? Do the walls bow in or out? What's more important square or level? Well if ya build it with a calibrated ball of string...it should be almost possible to ....No....If ya start with a ball of string...ya better finish with one cause it sucks trying to build right on top of wrong!LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOLnear the stream, LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOLaj

The_Tennis_Court_Builder_...on_t | Oct 31, 2000 12:49am | #415
*Joe....Kick the ass the person in mirror for awhile...I wanna watch to(o)! LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOLnear the stream, LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOLaj

The_Tennis_Court_Builder_...on_t | Oct 31, 2000 12:55am | #416
*A Drum roll please...............Mr. Joe "ball of string" Fucksco...is now working up a big come back post....Graphics....Colors...large types....cursing...calling names...and lots of LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOLnear the stream fishing for jerks and jerking my fish! LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOLaj

Joe_Fusco_ | Oct 31, 2000 12:56am | #417
*Ton-ah,

Pressure...Cooked...Your... Done. . . LOL,LOL,LOL

View Image © 1999-2000 "He who fights with monsters should look to it that he himself does not become a monster. And when you gaze long into an abyss the abyss also gazes into you." Friedrich W. Nietzsche

The_Tennis_Court_Builder_...on_t | Oct 31, 2000 01:03am | #418
*6:56....Write on cue...My bait is perfect tonight!near the stream, catching more Fukcso than legal! LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOLaj

The_Tennis_Court_Builder_...on_t | Oct 31, 2000 01:33am | #419
*Be Nice Joe...And I'll be nice....near the stream,aj

Ken_Drake | Oct 31, 2000 02:05am | #420
*Joe,I've noticed in many of your posts, especially in this thread, that you make a habit of badmouthing Construction Master Calculators. ( CM4 )I've met many framers over the past few years who have expressed the same feelings towards these calculators. They claim that they "don't work for them"If you took the time to understand how to use these calculators to your benefit, rather than wasting your energy on badmouthing them, you'd appreciate them more.It's truly a shame, that in your mind, the CM4 is the 5th Stooge, not I'd mind having it as a new member.Ken

Joe_Fusco_ | Oct 31, 2000 12:50pm | #421
*Moe,

This statement is as ridiculous as most others you make. I love my CM3-4. I use them all the time to cut my roofs.I don't bad-mouth the calculator, I bad-mouth you for seeming like a whiz when you post a slue of numbers when any bozo can push the right buttons and get the right answer.So what's your answer to my question?

View Image © 1999-2000"He who fights with monsters should look to it that he himself does not become a monster. And when you gaze long into an abyss the abyss also gazes into you." Friedrich W. Nietzsche

Joe_Fusco_ | Oct 31, 2000 12:51pm | #422
*Ton-ah,

You're a bozo. . . Get used to it. LOL,LOL,LOL!!!

View Image © 1999-2000"He who fights with monsters should look to it that he himself does not become a monster. And when you gaze long into an abyss the abyss also gazes into you." <font color

Joe_Fusco_ | Oct 31, 2000 12:58pm | #423
*Moe, I don't want this to get lost. . .

It's the same question. . . Other then a hammer to drive the nails into the wood that has been cut with the saw, what else would you need. I'd need just one more item. No books, tables, or devices that use solar or battery power. No squares of any kind with any information on it to figure the roof. No levels or plumb bobs. Just a frame waiting for a roof.How about you Godzilla??

View Image © 1999-2000"He who fights with monsters should look to it that he himself does not become a monster. And when you gaze long into an abyss the abyss also gazes into you." Friedrich W. Nietzsche

Ken_Drake | Oct 31, 2000 01:05pm | #424
*Joe,I don't think I'd need anything else besides the nails, the hammer, and the saw, as I've already told you. Is your memory failing?So Joe, once again, what would YOU need?

Joe_Fusco_ | Oct 31, 2000 01:20pm | #425
*Moe,

Just to clarify. . .If you go up on the deck with just those three items (wood included) you can frame the roof?One HammerCase of NailsOne saw of your choice.And nothing else. . . . . .

View Image © 1999-2000"He who fights with monsters should look to it that he himself does not become a monster. And when you gaze long into an abyss the abyss also gazes into you." Friedrich W. Nietzsche

Mike_Smith | Oct 31, 2000 02:05pm | #426
*you idiots are taking up valuable cyber space..joe .. if i caught you framing my roof with just those items... we'd have a short discussion...can we get back to real world now...?or at least teh ral cyber world...did i ever tell you i hate trick questions .....

Joe_Fusco_ | Oct 31, 2000 10:59pm | #427
*Kermit,

No "trick" question. . . It's dead serious!!BTW, can you frame a roof? I didn't get the impression you could. . .

View Image © 1999-2000"He who fights with monsters should look to it that he himself does not become a monster. And when you gaze long into an abyss the abyss also gazes into you." Friedrich W. Nietzsche

Mike_Smith | Nov 01, 2000 12:08am | #428
*haven't done one alone since '73.. but i've framed two or three or so.....

Ken_Drake | Nov 01, 2000 12:49am | #429
*Joe,You know, Mike Smith really has a point. We are taking up valuable cyber space. I'd like to think however, that he didn't include me in the idiot part of his statement, but very well may have.( Can't say after reading some of my recent posts, that he shouldn't have ) But since you are the asker of the question, and continue to push it to its limits, there's no doubt that you are in his idiots club.Regardless, once again, you are changing horses in the middle of the stream. First, your question was, "what do you need to frame a roof besides a hammer, nails, and a saw". (I think we all assumed a handsaw, otherwise the the obvious answer would be electricity.)On the second time around the question changed to something like, "what do you need to "figure", cut, and install rafters for ANY roof"?Now, in your last post, you've got us "up on the deck" with hammer, saw, and one CASE of nails, "plus the wood".So here are my questions:1) what do you mean by "up on the deck"? What if it's a single story?, and do I have to do my cutting "up on the deck"2) Is a case of nails enough to frame a large custom roof? Are more nails available if I need them????3) If I'm allowed to have a saw of my choice, as you put it, in your most recent post, and I choose a Skil 8 1/4" 60 degree bevel, can I assume that electric is available and cords to run the saw, whether I'm on the ground ( where I normally cut ) or up on the "deck" ( with a BALL OF STRING, using your methods) 4) Once on the jobsite with my hammer, nails, and a saw, am I allowed to manufacture templates, jigs, measuring devices,etc., providing that I ONLY USE THE ORIGINAL hammer, nails, and the saw that I was provided with when dropped off at the job site?5) My final question would be, would you state your "quiz question" ONE MORE TIME, in it's FINAL FORM, and promise never to change horses again?Final comment to Mike Smith. Didn't really want to join your club, but you do have the option of not reading this stuff.Moe, Godzilla, Hackmaster, Stooge Club President, Idiots Club Inductee, etc..........

Joe_Fusco_ | Nov 01, 2000 01:02am | #430
*Mozo,

Do you have an answer or do you just what to type 10,000 words without saying anything and really take up cyber space?For a whiz like you this should be simple to answer. . .

View Image © 1999-2000"He who fights with monsters should look to it that he himself does not become a monster. And when you gaze long into an abyss the abyss also gazes into you." Friedrich W. Nietzsche

Joe_Fusco_ | Nov 01, 2000 01:09am | #431
*Mozo,

No one changed anything, you just see it differently the more you think about it. This is your great weakness, you never answer the questions asked and always answer ones that weren't.You have a politicians knack for misdirection and distorting the facts. Luckily I pay absolutely no attention to anything you say. My question was simple. . . Answer it.

View Image © 1999-2000"He who fights with monsters should look to it that he himself does not become a monster. And when you gaze long into an abyss the abyss also gazes into you." Friedrich W. Nietzsche

Joe_Fusco_ | Nov 01, 2000 01:20am | #432
*Mozo,

Okay, since your a simpleton. . .You have all the wood in the world.You have all the men in the world.You can have all the men in the world cut and lift, but no one can figure the roof for you. You have a nuclear power plant to provide you with all the power for any saw you like.The house is infinite, any type you like form dog house to skyscraper.The question;WHAT OTHER ITEMS OTHER THEN A HAMMER, NAILS AND SAW WOULD YOU NEED TO FIGURE A ROOF FOR A FRAME WAITING FOR ONE!

View Image © 1999-2000"He who fights with monsters should look to it that he himself does not become a monster. And when you gaze long into an abyss the abyss also gazes into you." Friedrich W. Nietzsche

The_Tennis_Court_Builder_...on_t | Nov 01, 2000 02:01am | #433
*Fukcso...Beat any dead horses to death lately?Near the stream being extremely entertained... LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL!aj (not ton-ah, no -ass addendum...not bozo...not even Larry...)

The_Tennis_Court_Builder_...on_t | Nov 01, 2000 02:08am | #434
*Ken....Give him back the hammer....the nails....the saw...the army of men...and the access to the nuclear powerplant...The latest twist in the Fukcso question tale simply asks you to b figure the roof...I think you and I could figure a roof in our heads and figure that's it....Nada thing needed...b Not even a calibrated ball of string.Maybe just a perfectly chilled Saranac Beer...near the stream,aj (no extra names need be added...but thanks)

The_Tennis_Court_Builder_...on_t | Nov 01, 2000 02:10am | #435
*And b Happy Halloween to the Grand Monster of them all...Mr. Fukcso!]near the b Boogey Man!aj (OK..I'll be who ever you name me for tonight only!)

blue_eyed_devil_ | Nov 01, 2000 02:14am | #436
*Roger, if I had any idea what a threshold of visual distinguishability was, I could answer your question intelligently. I've seen my share of oak thresholds, stone thresholds, and lately a lot of aluminum thresholds. But i don't know about that distiguishability kind.I do know that there is no perceptual difference between a 4/12 and and a 4.12/12. But that never was the point. You have to remember that a lot of "apprentices" are partaking of the offerings here and all info should be precise. If a particular method is less than precise, it should be noted. Personally, I tend to think that those who take the time to "teach" should be sticklers about detail. You asked about the average error in pitch in the real world. In my world, none. That doesn't mean that I'm not flexible or never make mistakes, but since I calculate all my rafters, using whole number pitches, the end result will be a whole number pitch. It's not majic, nor particularly skillful. It's just the end result to a logical sequence of procedures.One problem that could become a bigger problem is the interior finish, using joes method. Unequal pitch hips do not cross the plates at the exact line of the intersection. In this case, it might not be too significant, but the significance increases with pitch and run. So, Joe's trick method might serve you well in this instance, but rise up to bite you in the butt in another application. A "framing trick" is best, if it works universally for all situations. If it doesn't, then it is critical to forewarn.blue

blue_eyed_devil_ | Nov 01, 2000 02:33am | #437
*Joe, in some absurd way, you usually make sense. But this time, I think you are a little wacky. Your methods don't exactly take those deviations into consideration, unless you intend to set up a block and string at every framing member location on the propsed roof. When calculations are done for a roof, it is a theoretical calculation. It "assumes" that things are level, straight, parallel, etc. It is also assumed that every framer knows that if a "problem" occurs, it will take a boogerer to make the adjustments.I'm not a pack animal as much as you think, or claim, but I don't find too much wrong with Ken's approach to calcualting roofs, or framing them. In some situations, the block and string is best, but more often than not, a little calcualting will take you where you need to be. In the abscence of a calculator, the good old fashioned framing square is also a handy method. blue

blue_eyed_devil_ | Nov 01, 2000 02:43am | #438
*Joe, have you lost your friggin mind?Ken's already said he could do it without a nuclear power plant. Aj is ready with his tennis court stuff, and I can do it with some sticks, leaves and droopy breasted women. I don't even need your rusty nails, or your balls of string.Have you thought about switching careers? you minght make a good teacher. I'm sure your tenth grade students would still be stuck in the Dick and Jane book given your penchant for answering...blue

blue_eyed_devil_ | Nov 01, 2000 02:44am | #439
*LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOLLOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOLLOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOLLOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL blue

blue_eyed_devil_ | Nov 01, 2000 02:46am | #440
*So, great name caller, what's your point?blue

Ken_Drake | Nov 01, 2000 03:10am | #441
*Geez blue,That last post of yours was very articulate( Way back with your response to Mike).The point that you bring to light about interior considerations involved with irregular roof framing defininitely separates you from the crowd.I've always appreciated your insight, that goes along with the long hours of strapping your belt on and getting out there and working with the men. ( Not all in your situation do)I also was very impressed by your comment about "average error, none" I work on the same principle, and as you suggest, it doesn't always work out that way, but a funny thing happened on the way to the bank. Since everybody was doing a good job with the wall framing, etc., the damn things fit real good anyway.Goota Luv Ya Blue Very good points made.Just stop stealing the petty cash from the Stooge Club Slush Fund for pizza and beer on the way home, and we might become friends.SINCERELY,Moe, Mozo, Godzilla, Bozo, Jerk, Asshole, Idiot, etc.

blue_eyed_devil_ | Nov 01, 2000 03:18am | #442
*It's all realtive. Some people think 400k is affordable. Some think 300 is. Some wistfully think about a 50k place of their own.Dual "professional" incomes have a lot to do with the bigger prices. College kids meet college kids and marry. They then have two "professional" incomes. That'll but a whole lot more than one tradesman fighting to average 35 hours per week.blue

Ken_Drake | Nov 01, 2000 03:30am | #443
*Joe,I don't have to answer any of your stupid replys.According to you, I have a Nuclear Power Plant. E-mail me at Paradise Island in the BAHAMAS. My secretary will pass on your messages when I return from my dive.Moe, Mozo, Bozo, Jerk, Asshole, Idiot, Etc.LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOLLOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOLLOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOLLOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOLLOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOLLOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOLLOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOLLOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOLLOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOLLOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL

Joe_Fusco_ | Nov 01, 2000 12:24pm | #444
*Curly,

Why do post such diatribe when you'll just butcher the shit out of the next thing you'll build? Like the other stooges, you sound good on paper, but look like shit in person. If you get my point.

View Image © 1999-2000"He who fights with monsters should look to it that he himself does not become a monster. And when you gaze long into an abyss the abyss also gazes into you." Friedrich W. Nietzsche

Joe_Fusco_ | Nov 01, 2000 12:33pm | #445
*Curly,

Now I know why everything you do is so bad. I check that stuff before I frame, unlike you who cuts them all and if their wrong will order new wood! There's nothing wacky about knowing the condition of the frame you're about to put a roof on. It will save much time and trouble and not to mention wood.But, hey, what would I expect form a Hack Master, LOL, LOL, LOL

View Image © 1999-2000"He who fights with monsters should look to it that he himself does not become a monster. And when you gaze long into an abyss the abyss also gazes into you." Friedrich W. Nietzsche

Joe_Fusco_ | Nov 01, 2000 12:44pm | #446
*Mozo,

In all that I still didn't see an answer. . . The guy answering must be more stupid then the stupid question, go figure, LOL, LOL, LOL.

View Image © 1999-2000"He who fights with monsters should look to it that he himself does not become a monster. And when you gaze long into an abyss the abyss also gazes into you." Friedrich W. Nietzsche

Roger_Martini | Nov 01, 2000 09:25pm | #447
*thanks for your answer to my question. One thing you mentioned struck a particular chord with me, related to this thread. That is that teachers should be sticklers for detail. It seems to me that the lack of this is part of what caused this 400+ monster of a thread. Joe reminds me of some professors I had, back in the day. They wanted to tell you just enough to convince you that they knew what they were talking about, but wanted to withold enough detail to make it all seem so very mysterious and difficult. This is pure self-promotion rather than actually trying to help a fellow out.Ken one the other hand, was patient and meticulous enough to make the light come on even in my thick DIY skull. This difference in approach makes me want to agree with his method as compared to Joe's, but I still wanted to pose the question to see whether there was a true right or wrong in this situation.The answer seems to be "both Ken and Joe's methods will work in this case, but if you are looking to learn a more general skill, use Ken's method."Thanks again for the reply. I have a lot of respect for the quality of your input on Breaktime.PS: I don't know why I keep looking at this hip rafters thread. It is kinda like not being able to resist looking at a car accident on the highway.

Joe_Fusco_ | Nov 02, 2000 12:17am | #448
*Roger,

I'm sorry you compare to to some professors you knew, I am at the very least, very detail minded, that's one reason I don't jump right in and give answers. I like to wait till all the fact are in.Also if you truly believe your assessment of how Ken and I differ, read this and let me have your opinion then, publicly or privately, it doesn't matter.

View Image © 1999-2000"He who fights with monsters should look to it that he himself does not become a monster. And when you gaze long into an abyss the abyss also gazes into you." Friedrich W. Nietzsche

Ken_Drake | Nov 02, 2000 01:21am | #449
*Joe,Just flew in from the Bahamas in my new Lear Jet.That nuclear power plant is really rakin in the dough for me.One more time, all I need to cut and frame the roof is a hammer, nails, and a saw. Once on the job site with all the material, I can make my own tape measure, and a nail works fine as a marker. That's all I really need.So that's my FINAL ANSWER. You tell me what else I'm overlooking ( in your opinion ) and I'll gladly admit I was wrong and you were right, for once, if indeed there is something that I do need. Then the score will be 99-1, my favor.One last question. Do I get to make the roof design, or will a roof plan be provided?Mozo ( I like that one, (Mozo), it shows a little imagination on your part for a change)Please stop sending so many people, like Roger Martini, into your website to read all that gibberrish you've got in there. After reading that stuff, he's going to think roof framing is Rocket Science.

Joe_Fusco_ | Nov 02, 2000 12:30pm | #450
*Mozo,

It's great to think that you're a "head". . . I'm still waiting for your "formulas" for rake crowns. . . How long as it been. . . Well, maybe after your next dive. . .I would only need in addition to my hammer, nails and (hand) saw would be a 100ft tape, but I could easily make my own. So, how does it go. . . You're a legend in your own mind!Since you've never understood the finer points of roof framing you might what to read this, it's prefect for a neophyte like you. Pass it along to all the people you screw up so they can understand were they went wrong and fix it, LOL, LOL, LOL.Yes I am imaginative. . . At least I don't go around trying to pass off 4000 year old stuff as "MY IDEAS", LOL, LOL, LOL.

View Image © 1999-2000"He who fights with monsters should look to it that he himself does not become a monster. And when you gaze long into an abyss the abyss also gazes into you." Friedrich W. Nietzsche

Ken_Drake | Nov 02, 2000 12:59pm | #451
*Joe,I'm not sure if you answered my question or not after reading your post.Was a tape measure the correct answer, as I suggested? If so, yes, I could manufacture my own on the job site with just the hammer, nails, and saw.It isn't necessary to have a 100 foot tape to frame a roof. A 10 foot tape would work just fine. That's what I would make.Bozmo

Ken_Drake | Nov 02, 2000 01:19pm | #452
*Haven't ever posted a photo as an attachment, so I'm giving it a try.Hey blue, are you there?How did you get your photos to open so fast. Did you use a digital camera or conventional one.Mr. Pita,I think I need your expertise once again. That picture took forever to come down. Maybe I should resize it first? would that help?Would a downloaded digital image be a better choice than scanning a photo, as this one was?Any suggestions from anyone else would be appreciated, as I would like to post more roof cutting photos in the future. Perhaps if not in this thread, in another one.ThanksKen

The_Tennis_Court_Builder_...on_t | Nov 02, 2000 02:18pm | #453
*Joe...Not only are you a bully....Your roof framing method with fixed ridges and ultimately slightly off roof piches is rediculous.And lastly...Who do you think you are with the posting of click throughs to your comercial site? You are a one man band that is wrecking this site with your name calling of others and your overall arrogant attitude.Keep it non comercial and keep the name calling down.near the stream,ajYou and Gabe should either grow up and get along or move to your site and let civil people chat here. By by!

Ken_Drake | Nov 02, 2000 03:01pm | #454
*Here's another photo showing common rafter and hip/valley rafter templates (patterns), as well as the 2 saws I always have out when cutting a roof. 7 1/4" 50 degree bevel DeWalt (sorry AJ) and an 8 1/4" 60 degree bevel Skil worm drive.It was a single pitch roof, 6/12. Notice that the HAP on the 2x8 common is the same on the 2x10 hip/val template ( 6 3/8" ). When you lay out the birdsmouth on hip rafters, you must remember to "drop the hip" 1/4", which simply means to remove an extra 1/4" from the level seat cut. This allows the top edges of the hip rafter to plane in with the common and jack rafters.It isn't necessary to do this for valley rafters.I resized this one hoping it won't take so long to come down.Ken

Ken_Drake | Nov 02, 2000 03:20pm | #455
*Okay, that's better. You didn't need the time to cook a 4 course meal to download that last one.I resized the first one, here it is againThat's better.What you are looking at are about 200 jack rafters that I have cut and labeled while the guys on the crew are framing the walls and joisting.The ridgeboards, hip and valley rafters, and common rafters, are in a separate pile behind the saw horses.

Ken_Drake | Nov 02, 2000 03:42pm | #456
*Here's the roof plan laying on my saw horses with a framing square. Notice the Starrett stair gauges.Every ridge is given a name on the roof plan, as you may be able to see, R1, R2, R3, etc...The hips and valleys also are "named", H1, H2, H3...V1, V2, V3...When it comes time for the crew to put up the roof, they can select the proper rafters, which also are labeled, and move them to the appropriate location of the building.All of the jack rafter lengths have been worked out ( I do this at home) and are written on the plan in an appropriate location.

Ken_Drake | Nov 02, 2000 03:51pm | #457
*Even the most inexperienced members on the crew have no problem understanding my system. If they want to bring Valley 5 to the building, it's easy to find.All ridge boards are layed out and named, as well as the hip and valley rafters.

Ken_Drake | Nov 02, 2000 04:14pm | #458
*Once the "skeleton" of the roof is established, which means that the ridge boards, the common rafters, the hip and valley rafters, are in place and braced, it's time to fill in all the jacks. The guys working up top just take a glance at the skeleton and ask the helpers, for example, to "bring the jacks for Hip 8" and also, for example, "bring the valley jaks that go from Ridge 2 to Valley 1" The attached photo shows how easy it is for them to find these jacks. I always number them so the longest jack in a set is number "1" So in the attached photo, you see, from front to rear, the 4th and 5th jacks to Hip 8, The 4th and 5th Valley jacks from Ridge 2 to Valley 1, the 4th and 5th valley jacks from ridge 2 to valley 4, and finally, the 4th and 5th jacks for Hip4. All jacks for any hip or valley rafter are in the same stack of course.

Ken_Drake | Nov 02, 2000 04:27pm | #459
*Special rafters such as these 2 "king rafters" are clearly labeled for the crew. Not only do they know which ridge board that the king rafter frames to, but also the location of the building where it goes, if necessary.Many roof framers, as I do, refer to a "king" rafter, as the common rafter that butts to the end of the ridge board. These rafters are important as they help you establish the left to right, or front to rear, location of the ridgeboard.

Ken_Drake | Nov 02, 2000 04:41pm | #460
*Here's a photo of the building waiting for its roof.Normally we frame large custom homes, but this just happened to be a vetinary clinic that we squeezed in between houses.The roof probably would have been started by now, but we're waiting on the block masons to finish their walls on the right side of the house, which you can't see. So the rest of the crew is over at another job site framing another house. I probably won't be here when the roof goes up. I'll just leave Steve my Roof Plan and head over to the new house to cut its roof. It does get lonely at times.I have some pictures of the rafters for the 3 California framed (overframes) roofs, as well the the 2/12 patio rafters at the front of the bldg. When the 2/12 roof intersects the 6/12 roof, irregular hips and valleys result. I'll post pictues of these rafters also, along with an explanation of how I cut them. They're in another stack.I hope some of you have enjoyed my little roof framing tour. It really was blue eyed devils fault if you didn't. He wanted me to do "Cuttin with Ken" so this was a beginning.

Ken_Drake | Nov 02, 2000 07:20pm | #461
*The total length of the main lower ridge board was 53' 2" and needed to be in two pieces. I always nail a 2x2 on the bottom of the first section at the splice so when it's up there in place and the next section arrives, the guys will have something to rest one end of it on.Notice that the location where the single cheek cut on valley 2 will meet the ridge board, is layed out in advance. Of course you still take the time to eyeball across the plane of the roof to see if it's planing in well.

Ken_Drake | Nov 02, 2000 07:37pm | #462
*Here's some tails on some of the hip rafters. I cut them to fit ahead of time rather than doing it from scaffolding later on. (Don't like sawdust landing on top of my head). The very ends of the tails have double 45 degree bevels on them.The birdsmouths that you see on these hips, have been dropped 1/4". Which means an extra 1/4" has been removed from the seat cut.If you're new to roof framing, perhaps a DIY'er, the amount you drop the hips is equal to 1/2 the thickness of the hip rafter times the slope of the hip rafter, or3/4"x (6/17) which is very close to 1/4"You don't have to drop the valley rafters, since the roof is planing into the CENTER LINE of the valley rafter, and is not blocked out by the edges of the rafter, as it is with a hip.I indicate on the seat cut where the hip rafter should cross the plate on each side, if everything is fitting properly. That's what that little writing you see on the seat cut is all about

Roger_Martini | Nov 02, 2000 08:10pm | #463
*Well, you are right of course that I shouldn't presume to know your motives, and for that I apologise. I still feel that much of this debate may have been forshortened had you provided more text to support your earlier drawings. I regret the personal tone that has come to dominate this discussion by all parties, but feel compelled to point out that your approach in particular is often less than friendly and straitforward when answering questions. That said, I appreatate your moderation in tone in replying to my post.cheers.

Ken_Drake | Nov 02, 2000 08:23pm | #464
*There are three small "fake" dormers that will be framed on top of the main roof rafters.Since a king rafter occurs directly under the ridgeboard of each dormer, the proper cut has been made for it to sit on top of the king rafter. (Just use the body of the framing square to make this cut if you haven't done this before).The 6 small stacks are the dormer rafters. Each stack has 4 regular common rafters, 1 bobtailed common rafter, and one valley jack.The 2 small stacks on the bottom left are the flat valley boards that the jack rafters will be nailed to.

Ken_Drake | Nov 02, 2000 09:09pm | #465
*To find the length of the dormer ridge board, start by adding the height of the rake wall ( which we have already built and are laying inside the building), to the HAP of the rafters, which was 4 1/4" as I cut these from 2x6 stock, not 2x8 as with the main roof.53 5/8" + 4 1/4" = 57 7/8" ( see attached drawing)The span for these dormers is 6' 6" So the half span is 3' 3". Subtract 1/2 the thickness of the ridge board, or 3/4" to get 3' 2 1/4". That's the run of the rafter from the plate to its top plumb cut.Since it's a 6/12 roof, the corresponding RISE to the top of the ridge board is 1/2 of 3' 2 1/4" = 1' 7 1/8"So the total rise = 57 7/8" + 1' 7 1/8" = 6' 5"And since it's a 6/12 roof, just double that to get the length of the ridge board, 12' 10". Then add the overhang as shown. ( 10 1/2" for these dormers )

Ken_Drake | Nov 02, 2000 09:52pm | #466
*Notice the "special" rafter marked R1 to R2This indicates to the crew that it begins at Ridge 1 and ends on top of Ridge 2. The main purpose for this rafter is to provide a convenient location to cut the decking on the roof.See my next post attachment: SpecialRafter.GIFif you'd like to see more about it.

Ken_Drake | Nov 02, 2000 10:08pm | #467
*Here's what that "special" rafter will look like when put in the roof. (see drawing)It's really an easy rafter to learn how to cut. Since you know the height of each ridge above the plate line, just subtract to find the difference in rise between the 2 ridgeboards, in this case, 1'9 1/8"If you own a Construction Master Calc. just enter this measurement as Rise, and hit the diagonal key to find the length of the rafter, 3' 11 1/4"If you don't own a CM Calc, just multiply the difference in rise by 12, then divide by the unit rise of the roof which is 6. This gives you the run of the rafter. Then find its length from rafter tables.1' 9 1/8" = 21 1/8"21 1/8" x 12 = 253 1/2"253 1/2"/6 = 42 1/4" ( run of rafter)Rafter length, long point to long point = 3' 11 1/4"

Joe_Fusco_ | Nov 02, 2000 10:55pm | #468
*Roger,

Would there ever be any reason for me to have any other tone with you than the one I have/had? I think not. You seem like an honest and straight forward guy, as long as you don't become belligerent towards me, I will never towards you. It's that simple.As far as the stooges go. . . There's a history behind it all.

View Image © 1999-2000"He who fights with monsters should look to it that he himself does not become a monster. And when you gaze long into an abyss the abyss also gazes into you." Friedrich W. Nietzsche

Joe_Fusco_ | Nov 02, 2000 11:09pm | #469
*Mozo,

Nothing like looking at a stack of lumber on the ground. Be sure and post some pictures as it's going up.

View Image © 1999-2000"He who fights with monsters should look to it that he himself does not become a monster. And when you gaze long into an abyss the abyss also gazes into you." Friedrich W. Nietzsche

Ken_Drake | Nov 02, 2000 11:15pm | #470
*Joe,Will do that. If you've noticed, we're currently having a lot of rain (San Antonio), and probably it will continue for several days, which is one reason why I chose to post so much right now. Roof probably won't go up until at least Monday. If weather cooperates, should only take about one day. If I'm there, which I don't expect to be, I'll take some shots of it going up. Otherwise, I'll go by and snap a few later.

Joe_Fusco_ | Nov 02, 2000 11:47pm | #471
*Mozo,

One consequence of this action "dropping the hip" is it causes the jack rafters closest to the corner to plan up at the end of their tails. This happens because if you cut the jack correctly it wants to set higher up on the hip. So to make it fit you just push it down a little. When you do so the tail move up a little. The difference is greatest with the last two jacks at the corner.Here I'm sure you use Curly's approach and just nail it.

View Image © 1999-2000"He who fights with monsters should look to it that he himself does not become a monster. And when you gaze long into an abyss the abyss also gazes into you." Friedrich W. Nietzsche

Ken_Drake | Nov 03, 2000 12:13am | #472
*Joe,It has become very clear to me that you have a poor understanding of what exactly it means to "DROP A HIP", not only from your last post, but from others that you have previously made over the last 2 years.When COMMON AND JACK rafters cross the outside plate ( the bldg. line), there is a plumb cut measurement left after the birdsmouth is removed. And you know, this measurement is known as the HAP, and also by a wide variety of other names.The purpose of "dropping the hip" is to make the outside plumb measurements on the hip rafter, match the HAP on the common and jack rafters, at the points where the hip rafter crosses the outside plate line.IT'S THAT SIMPLEIf you do, non of the consequences occur that you mention in your previous post. My last 2 little jack rafters towards the end of the hip always plane in nicely. I really would like to know what it is that you think you personally mean by "DROPPING THE HIP"I can assure you of one thing. You have a confused idea of what this expression means, just as confused as your method of setting ridge boards in your website. That information you have in there needs to be deleted from cyberspace.

Joe_Fusco_ | Nov 03, 2000 12:17am | #473
*Ken,

Well, I hope you stay dry. . .BTW you have to stop saving your pic's as "GIF" files, they look more like cartoons then pictures. Since the GIF format only allows 256 colors you lose a lot. Just save them as jpg, with compression on. What photo editor program came with your DC?

View Image © 1999-2000"He who fights with monsters should look to it that he himself does not become a monster. And when you gaze long into an abyss the abyss also gazes into you." Friedrich W. Nietzsche

Joe_Fusco_ | Nov 03, 2000 01:04am | #474
*Mozo,

You have no idea what you are talking about. You might want to read this. I also hope you were the guy who framed that house. . . and that everything is the way it should for that stack of lumber on the ground, if not it makes good kindling. . .

View Image © 1999-2000"He who fights with monsters should look to it that he himself does not become a monster. And when you gaze long into an abyss the abyss also gazes into you." Friedrich W. Nietzsche

Joe_Fusco_ | Nov 03, 2000 01:12am | #475
*Mozo,

As I recall you didn't know what the HAP was until you read it off my site. . .The purpose of droping the hip is so you can line the top of the jack rafter cut with the edge of the hip, if not you get the bump. I bevel my hips so I don't have to drop them. You on the other hand are always dropping something or other. . .

View Image © 1999-2000"He who fights with monsters should look to it that he himself does not become a monster. And when you gaze long into an abyss the abyss also gazes into you." Friedrich W. Nietzsche

Ken_Drake | Nov 03, 2000 01:21am | #476
*Joe,Contrary to what you believe, I do have a very good idea of what I am talking about.I make a living by cutting roofs for Framing Constractors. They are apparently very pleased with my abilities, which I have worked on very tediously over the past 20 years. I'm sure the roof plans that I deal with are far more complicated than what you experience.Roughly four months ago, I cut all of the rafters for a roof, similar to the manner in which I described in my recent posts, and the roof had 7 different pitches involved, as well as several different plate heights.To make it even more challenging, there were 2 points in the roof where 3 different roof pitches met at a single point ( 6/12, 9/12, 12/12). Would you care to address that situation in your website sir?I will repeat once again. You do not understand roof framing, and your website reflects it. You would be doing Humankind a great service, if you would highlight the section of your website that you call "MODERN ROOF FRAMING" and the hit the DELETE KEY.I will thank you at this time for letting me know about the jpeg format, several other people have e-mailed me and let me know about it.Mozo

Joe_Fusco_ | Nov 03, 2000 01:25am | #477
*Mozo,

It's clear. . . You need to read this. . . We can talk about once you understand it better. If you need help, I'm here for you. . .

View Image © 1999-2000"He who fights with monsters should look to it that he himself does not become a monster. And when you gaze long into an abyss the abyss also gazes into you." Friedrich W. Nietzsche

Joe_Fusco_ | Nov 03, 2000 01:48am | #478
*Mozo,

"Dropping the hip A hip seat cut has to be dropped, which is the procedure of lowering the entire hip slightly in elevation by making a somewhat deeper seat cut. If the hip were not dropped, the corners on its top edge would protrude slightly beyond the adjoining roof planes, interfering with the installation of the sheathing. To determine the amount of dropped necessary, I took a piece of scrap the same thickness as the hip (drawing, facing page, bottom left) and made a level cut through it, using angle DLN. I placed this so that it bisected than 90° angle formed by the intersection of the adjoining plates. I then squared up from the level line at the point where the outside of the plate crossed the face of the scrap. The distance from this point to the top edge of the scrap was the amount of drop. Accordingly, I moved up the theoretical seat cut a vertical distance equal to the drop, to arrive at the actual seat cut (middle drawing, facing page)."Scott McBride.Roof Framing Revisited pg 99.Fine Homebuilding Builder's LibraryFrame Carpentry.So much for 20 years. Go argue with him you bozo. . .

View Image © 1999-2000"He who fights with monsters should look to it that he himself does not become a monster. And when you gaze long into an abyss the abyss also gazes into you." Friedrich W. Nietzsche

Ken_Drake | Nov 03, 2000 01:53am | #479
*Joe,It really is a shame that I have taken the time today to demonstrate the approach I use to frame a roof, for others to learn from, and have it get lost in the banter that you insist on posting because of your lack of knowledge of roof framing principles.As you recall, about 2 years ago I downloaded the entire section of your website concerning "MODERN ROOF FRAMING" and pointed out to you about 6 errors involving mathematical computation, as well as concepts involved. You made the corrections, but never thanked me for doing so.Even so, what information you have in there to this day, still is a giant step backward into the dark ages of roof framing, and I personally challenge you to find one person, who supports your methods.If you can find that person, have him/her post and tell us all what a wonderful method you have presented in your website. I'll bet if you can find that person, I'd easily be able to convince him/her, that I am the true Queen of England.

blue_eyed_devil_ | Nov 03, 2000 02:31am | #480
*Joe, you've wandered off on another self serving tangent. I don't think I've ever attempted to put a roof on a frame that was wavy, undulating or generally whacked out. But, we all know that perfection is a fleeting goal and sometimes the best effort produces less than perfect results. I know we can tear down an entire building and start over, but usually it's better just to booger it a little and humbly accept the fact that we are human.If you've put together many roofs, you'll know exactly what I'm talking about. Oh yeah, I don't remember re-ordering lumber because I've screwed up too bad to complete something. That day is still coming.blue

Joe_Fusco_ | Nov 03, 2000 02:37am | #481
*Mozo,

One thing about bad or dumb politicians is they forget the lies they tell and you are both bad and dumb. Here once again for posterity is your very first reply to me. . . Here is were you point out the errors in my site, be careful this is a LOOOOOOONG one. Here's were I thank you.You are so full of shit pal. . . Once a bozo always a bozo, LOL, LOL, LOL.

View Image © 1999-2000"He who fights with monsters should look to it that he himself does not become a monster. And when you gaze long into an abyss the abyss also gazes into you." Friedrich W. Nietzsche

blue_eyed_devil_ | Nov 03, 2000 02:47am | #482
*Of course I'm here Ken. I wouldn't miss this thread for all the milkbones in Milkbone Land.If you believe that, I've got a trunkful of jewlry to sell you...First, I'm assuming that you are scanning some photos. Then you are saving them in "gif" format. "Gifs" are a type of file that is not compressed. I save my scans as "JPG" type files. "Jpg" is a compressed file, and therefore smaller to open than a GIF. There is some reduced amount of quality, though probably none to the naked eye.Creating or saving them in a smaller size helps a ton too. Your pic is 1705 x 1189 pixels. That's a lot of bytes.I do use a digital camera. I have three (plus an "email" size) sizes to choose from while taking the picture and two levels of clarity. I take "normal" quality pictures and use the small size settings. I highly recommend the user friendly Sony Mavica Digital because I'm a dolt and I figured out how to use it without much reading or input from others. Its kinda user friendly. But the real reason is that I can now afford to take lots of pics, because I don't need to pay to develop them. I've snapped over a thousand pics since I got this camera. I probaly only snapped fifty pictures, in my entire lifetime, before I got this camera. blue

blue_eyed_devil_ | Nov 03, 2000 02:53am | #483
*Joe,What exactly do you mean that dropping the hip causes the last two jacks to plane up?I think you are misunderstanding something about the dropping of the hip. Your insinuation doesn't make any sense to me.Please enlighten me...curly the hacker whacker

Joe_Fusco_ | Nov 03, 2000 02:55am | #484
*Curly,

Shut up before you make more of an ass of yourself. You have no clue as to what you just said. . . LOL,LOL,LOL.

View Image © 1999-2000"He who fights with monsters should look to it that he himself does not become a monster. And when you gaze long into an abyss the abyss also gazes into you." Friedrich W. Nietzsche

Joe_Fusco_ | Nov 03, 2000 02:58am | #485
*Curly,

Read this, I'm writing it just for guys like you with little or no experience in roof framing.

View Image © 1999-2000"He who fights with monsters should look to it that he himself does not become a monster. And when you gaze long into an abyss the abyss also gazes into you." Friedrich W. Nietzsche

Joe_Fusco_ | Nov 03, 2000 03:04am | #486
*

Hey, I just wanted to be 500. . .

View Image © 1999-2000"He who fights with monsters should look to it that he himself does not become a monster. And when you gaze long into an abyss the abyss also gazes into you." Friedrich W. Nietzsche

blue_eyed_devil_ | Nov 03, 2000 03:13am | #487
*Ken, I've really enjoyed your posts and pics. You really should have put them in a seperate thread to do them justice. And you should slow down a little. I have a ton of questions but am a bit overwhelmed..The first question is in regards to the joist layout on the building pic that you posted: Do the framers put the ceiling joist first, and you adjust your roof layout to them, or do you specify to them where to put their joist? Or, do your parts sometimes clash and then you beat the hell out of each other?blue

Mike_Smith | Nov 03, 2000 03:39am | #488
*hey.... HEY... why don't you guys start a new thread called HIP RAFTERS II..this is ridiculous...anyone who wants can read part I..anyways...joe / ken / blue??? i've always thought the birdsmouth was an arbitrary cut.. i.e. it could be adjusted up or down as teh circumstances called for..my minimum birdsmouth would he a vertical cut of 1.5 inch.. and then i would adjust from there depending on what i was trying to do... e.g.. i spend a lot of time designing my overhang / cornice to take advantage of vinyl soffit material...and since we do the designs, we get to make these determinations...do you have fixed rules of thumb or other formulas for determining the birdsmouth ?and .. how about it ... part II, i know this is McNally 's thread... but why don't we move on ?

The_Tennis_Court_Builder_...on_t | Nov 03, 2000 03:44am | #489
*Mike,The stooges will have to put it to vote...And we can't even put it to vote until it gets out of committee...I think it's in Moe's committee...near the stream,aj (Larry for one vote)

blue_eyed_devil_ | Nov 03, 2000 03:46am | #490
*Hey Joe, that's the first thread that I conversed with you. If my memory serves me right, you lost quite a supply of milkbones to me. And Ken whupped your butt in that thread too.I noticed that you claimed that your "modern roof framing" site was unfinished. I checked it out againg today, and I noticed that it still is unfinished. Do you have finishing issues? The topic of bastard hips seemed to be quite scant... maybe you want Ken to help you out?blue

blue_eyed_devil_ | Nov 03, 2000 03:58am | #491
*Mike, the birdsmouth is definitely an arbitrary decision. many factors enter into the decision regarding the H.A.P. or more commonly refferred to around here, the "heel".Usually there are some basic ground rules that govern a heel. Too little "meat" and you've created a weak point in the rafter. Too much height, and you've eliminated a solid base for the rafter to attach to the wall. A 4" to 4 1/4" heel was common for 2x6 rafters in the old days. It provided a solid seat, enough structural material to sustain an overhang, and was easy to cut. The oil shortages of the early 80's changed all that. In our colder climate, the new standard demanded an "energy" heel. An Energy heel was basically a higher heel that allowed a greater amount of insulation at the wall line. It also was higher to provide the air flow that a modern day roof required.My rule of thumb changes for every job, which has different projections, pitches and interior applications. Aside from the energy considerations, I usually try to work out a heel that will be easy to frame, will work conviently with the projections and other cornice pieces, and be as easy to cut as possible (I try to eliminate multiple stepped cuts).I find your idea of tinkering with the birdsmouth to be very wise and the mark of a good craftman.blue

blue_eyed_devil_ | Nov 03, 2000 04:02am | #492
*Jozo, beveling the hips is an absurd waste of time for most applications. If beveling the hip is so important, than obviously beveling the ridge would be equally important.Do you bevel your ridge?blue

blue_eyed_devil_ | Nov 03, 2000 04:04am | #493
*Jozo, if you will finish it, I will read it. It's a little tireing to do all your proofreading.Some of your terms are very weird too.By the way, what happened to the Verga part of your company?blue

blue_eyed_devil_ | Nov 03, 2000 04:07am | #494
*Jozo, Hee hawHee haw Hee hawHee hawHee hawHee haw Hee hawHee hawcurly

blue_eyed_devil_ | Nov 03, 2000 04:12am | #495
*Ken, I like to make my templates out of lighter stock- usually 1x material. I don't save these, because each roof will have it's own pattern depending on the sizes of the material delivered for the overhangs. Since we put all of our overhangs on before we start the roof framing, we usually have to "customize" the heel to fit our pinelines and window header heights.blueI also usually whack an additional 1 1/2" out of the seat cut on the hips to provide for a chunk of 2x backing material to be placed over the corner. Have you ever done that?blue

Joe_Fusco_ | Nov 03, 2000 12:50pm | #496
*Curly,

You just can't help yourself. . . LOL,LOL,LOL.

View Image © 1999-2000"He who fights with monsters should look to it that he himself does not become a monster. And when you gaze long into an abyss the abyss also gazes into you." Friedrich W. Nietzsche

Ken_Drake | Nov 03, 2000 04:10pm | #497
*AJ, Shemp, Curly, Jozo, Mike, Roger, others,I think Mike has a good idea, let's all go over to his part 2 Hip Rafter thread and shoot for another 500.blue,I'll respond to your questions and those of others in the new thread.Mozo

Ken_Drake | Nov 03, 2000 08:19pm | #498
*Okay blue, Joe, Mike, I'm rescanning one of my drawings that I posted in Hip Rafters 1, this time in jpeg format. Will you let me know how it comes out on your computer????I'd hold down the compression button as Joe suggested but I have no idea where to find it. This isn't one of those "go out to my truck and get some toenails" type of deals is it? Sorry guys, I meant to put this in Hip Rafters 2

The_Tennis_Court_Builder_...on_t | Nov 03, 2000 10:36pm | #499
*Your jpeg compressed pic is fine...more info in hip 2near the super long thread by the stream,aj

Ken_Drake | Nov 03, 2000 10:41pm | #500
*Thanks AJ

blue_eyed_devil_ | Nov 04, 2000 01:36am | #501
*Good idea fellow stooges. Lets sneak out of hear, pack animal style. Shhhh! Don't tell jozo.curly

Joe_Fusco_ | Nov 04, 2000 02:33am | #502
*Curly,

You must have this confused with dropping your shorts. You seem like the type. . . A lot of lip and no teeth. You give great oral masturbation. Mozo and AJ-ass say your the best. Who am I to disagree. . .

View Image © 1999-2000"He who fights with monsters should look to it that he himself does not become a monster. And when you gaze long into an abyss the abyss also gazes into you." Friedrich W. Nietzsche

blue_eyed_devil_ | Nov 04, 2000 02:47am | #503
*I see Jozo. YOu avoid the intelligent question and discussion with crude sexual jokes.I didn't really think you had an intelligent answer readily available. You never fail to stay in your M.O.: I think this is the third question that you have dodged in this thread. You like to make outlandish statements and suggestions with no intelligent facts to back them up. When questioned, you dodge the realities by making a personal attack.I'm quite sure this same style is displayed in your personal real life. I'll bet my entire milkbone supply that you have alienated all of your professional contacts and you spend a lot of time working alone and searching for new subs.blue

Joe_Fusco_ | Nov 04, 2000 03:04am | #504
*Curly,

Your just to dumb to know you've been had. See how easy it was for me to get you here. Look how hard you tried to get me over there. You are sorrowful and dimwitted to say the least, but in your case that's all that one can say. You have never asked an intelligent question, all your questions are sardonic or sadistic in nature, just like you. I run from nothing, I'm not going to run from a jerk like you. I'm also sure that you get along quite well with everyone you meet, everyone likes a guy who "bends over for them", and your right I don't get along with many people and I don't bend over for anyone. But I sleep like a log at night knowing I do my best for the people I work for and put out a quality product day in and day out. Unlike you the Master Butcher who's only venue is to whack it together to collect your money. If that's what you've come to then you suck at what you do. And you still don't know jack shit about roofs. . .Now go fuck yourself. . . . I'm done with you. . .

View Image © 1999-2000"He who fights with monsters should look to it that he himself does not become a monster. And when you gaze long into an abyss the abyss also gazes into you." Friedrich W. Nietzsche

blue_eyed_devil_ | Nov 04, 2000 03:21am | #505
*Thank you for you warm fuzzy response Joe. I've been had. I'm so embarrassed. I should have seen it coming. When will I ever learn...?I have asked intteligent questions. Basic questions that get to the root of your silly assertions. Too bad that your smart enougn not to answer them because you know I'll use your own words to prove your other words wrong. You obviously are smart enough to sense when the killer is being stalked.I'd be lying if I said I get along with everyone I meet. But my anger management program isn't the one in question. Yours is.I'm glad your sleeping like a log, but who asked? You might just be falling fast asleep from exhaustion associated with stress, the stress caused by your paranoia.I'm amazed that you are able to judge the quality of my work. I really don't care what you think of my work, since I don't work for you, or people like you. I'm quite satisfied with my efforts, and the efforts of my employees. I know for a fact that we can out frame you n both quality and quantity. By the time you get your blocks nailed up and strings strung, we'd have half the roof set...perfectly...and to the correct pitch!Thank you for inviting me to go screw myself. That is such a new, novel way to insult me. I'm setting my appointment for my therapy session now to get back my self-esteem.blue

Joe_Fusco_ | Nov 04, 2000 04:00am | #506
*Curly,

Okay I just could not resist. The depth of your stupidity is profound. . .You will never learn, you haven't the capacity. . .

"I have asked intteligent questions. Basic questions that get to the root of your silly assertions. Too bad that your smart enougn not to answer them because you know I'll use your own words to prove your other words wrong. You obviously are smart enough to sense when the killer is being stalked."

A simple answer is that I know the difference of two lips put together to form words as opposed to two checks flapping together to pass gas. All your questions are of the latter type.

"I'm amazed that you are able to judge the quality of my work."

Well, that's an easy one. You posted the pictures of the crap work you and the crew do. . . there's no need for me to repost them you and everyone else knows where to look for how to do crap work by blue. . .

"I really don't care what you think of my work, since I don't work for you, or people like you."

You could never work for me or anyone I work or have worked for. You just don't have the skills and you posted the pictures to prove it.

"I'm quite satisfied with my efforts, and the efforts of my employees. I know for a fact that we can out frame you n both quality and quantity."

It's clear, once again by the pictures you posted that your efforts (standards) are quite low. If you and the guy you frame for is happy with the crap quality and the speed at which you put the crap out at, Well, Who the hell am I to argue!

"By the time you get your blocks nailed up and strings strung, we'd have half the roof set...perfectly...and to the correct pitch!"

I doubt you could do much of anything period, but if perfect is (+-) 10" then you're the man for the job.BTW when Bozo stalks. . . Killer Bozo gets killed, but I guess you've learned that the hard way.

View Image © 1999-2000"He who fights with monsters should look to it that he himself does not become a monster. And when you gaze long into an abyss the abyss also gazes into you." Friedrich W. Nietzsche

blue_eyed_devil_ | Nov 06, 2000 03:32am | #507
*Jozo, I love this discussion with you. It's so pointless. You've yet to answer any question. Instead you dodge the question by telling me that I don't know how to frame a roof and that my work is crap. The depth of your intelectual abilities astound me. I'm sure you were captain of the debate team and you obviously would make a great lawyer.Except you'd lose every case!And I am honored that you hung in there studying my boogerin thread. I'm not surprised that you only could look at the pictures and never bothered to read (maybe you don't know how to read yet?). If you had bothered to read, you would have found out that every "problem" that I showed pictures of were corrected. And I also indicated how long each "problem" took to fix. I think a grand total of two, maybe three hours were needed to help the apprentices learn their trade.The thing that tickles me is your attitude that you never make mistakes. The old man used to tell me: "the only guy not making mistakes is the guy that isn't doing anything!" I guess you fall into that category.I also would like to remind you that the only "perfect" carpenter was Jesus Christ, and they hung him from a tree. I prefer my fallibilty.Anyways Jozo, thanks for the chuckles. Maybe in a few years, you'll grow up enough to carry on an adult conversation. In the meantime, try to avoid beating up your wife too often.blue

Mike_McNally | Nov 06, 2000 03:32am | #508
*
I am building an 8' porch around my house and the corner will be in 30 degree increments. Can someone tell me how to figure the length of the two hip rafters? The common rafters will be 4/12 and I know a regular hip is 4/17

Log in or create an account to post a comment.
Sign up Log in
Become a member and get full access to FineHomebuilding.com

Discussion Forum

HIP RAFTERS

Replies

Log in or create an account to post a comment.

Become a member and get full access to FineHomebuilding.com

Video Shorts

Categories

Discussion Forum

Recent Posts and Replies

Up Next

Video Shorts

Featured Story

Featured Video

Related Stories

Highlights

Fine Homebuilding Magazine

Fine Home Building

Newsletter Sign-up

We hope you’ve enjoyed your free articles. To keep reading, become a member today.

HIP RAFTERS

Replies

Log in or create an account to post a comment.

Become a member and get full access to FineHomebuilding.com

Video Shorts

Categories

Discussion Forum

Recent Posts and Replies

Up Next

Video Shorts

Featured Story

Featured Video

Related Stories

Highlights

Fine Homebuilding Magazine

Fine Home Building

Newsletter Sign-up

Fine Homebuilding

Green Building Advisor

Old House Journal

Follow

Fine Homebuilding

GBA Prime

Old House Journal

Membership & Magazine

We hope you’ve enjoyed your free articles. To keep reading, become a member today.