Is it possible or sensible to buy double pane glass from a glass house and build your own stops for all your fixed glass needs in DIY home build when sourcing all moving windows from a Pella or Andersen etal?
Can this save any measurable money?
Is it just a pain in the butt?
Any other reasons to do this or not to do it?
Thoughts.
From building boxes and fitting face frames to installing doors and drawers, these techniques could be used for lots of cabinet projects.
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Replies
I've done many. Be sure to use the rubber shims that keep the two panes from sliding and destroying the seal. Also, watch what caulk you choose to seal the stops. Outgassing of some can affect the sealants used for the double panes.
Most Glass shops install with poly caulks, not silcone.
Never bed double pane in glazing putty.
Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
"Success is not spontaneous combustion, you have to set yourself on Fire"
We used to set thermopanes with rolls of putty tape. Is there a problem with doing it that way?
Never used it, so I can't say yea or nay. It is important to have a firm yet yielding shim, my glass shop supplied them, Neoprene I think. And the lesson about wrong sealants came the hard way, used silicone and saw the seals degrade in a year.
And the lables on at least 3 cans of glazing compounds I have used this past summer ( Dap, Glazol, and Sherwin-Williams) all have a disclaimer against use on insul panes.
My exp with a shop in NC was use what they use, and it was a urethane caulk. Here in KY, they use a Poly Urethane such as PL, not the PL premium. BTW, I recently discovered that PL stands for Pro Level.
I'll be posting a thread on some TDL single pane sash I am currently glazing, and using Azek glass stops and Big Stretch caulk for bedding, probly tomorrow night or Fri.
As it may apply to this thread.Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
"Success is not spontaneous combustion, you have to set yourself on Fire"
I used to use similar shims which I got from the glass supplier. I think I used to get the putty rolls (glazing tape?) from them as well. It came in various thicknesses and had a backing which you peeled off during installation. I found it more difficult to work with than caulking, PITA actually, but the end result was neat. I don't recall ever having to replace any units done with tape. Ease of replacement should be part of the original design criteria.
Yes any glass supplier can order double pane glass, the last time I did it was several years ago they ran about 35.00 each for 25x20. Made a set of three strom windows for a client who said he was a light sleeper and wanted extra deading for his bedroom which was in front of the house.
I did not do them but the builder of my house thought it was cheaper. We have a bit of a bay in the living room three lower windows are aluminium two open the other one fixed. above those three are three smaller ones that are set into a ceder box fir stop on the inside cedar stop outside. Been up 18 years no problem. The sill has no slope but they are so high and under the eaves they do not get wet. If I did them I would slope the sill. Will attach a picture later.
Wallyo
I did this when building my house 25 years ago. The fixed windows are still fine though a couple have a little condensation between the panes. It is not bad enough to replace yet.
The biggest problem is matching the finish of the factory windows. I had wood casement Andersen windows with brick mould on the outside. These were quite easy to match. Clad windows would be another story unless they were physically separate from the home made windows.
I saved quite a bit of money but will not do it again if I build another house. It all depends on how much time (and/or money) you have.
If you are doing the labor part yourself the savings is huge. Double pane windows without anything fancy can be as low as $2/sqft. That means a 5'x6' window can be as low as $60!
If you go to a shop that works with used glass, often glass that's in new condition just can't be sold as new, the glass panes might only be .50/sqft and whatever they charge for the seal and assembly.
The kicker is the large amount of labor involved in putting together a well sealed, weather resistant frame. Wood frames require careful construction with weather resistant wood and good preparation. My costs to duplicate an existing window are near a custom window from one of the major manufacturers. We do this a lot for stained glass pieces if the rest of the windows are also wood on the exterior.
A generic frame that doesn't need to match other windows is much quicker to construct, but still needs careful attention to the flashings and seals.
If you don't mind vinyl windows, they can be had reasonably priced in fixed versions.
There are probably dozens of companies that make varioius frames that can be cut to whatever your window size is to be, usually out of aluminum.
Another option that's cost concious might be using used commercial window frames. The aluminum extrusions are often generic in nature and simply cut to length and screwed together. The windows are cut to match the openings and the seals are made to work with the frames. The downside is the heat transfer through the aluminum frames and it looks like something that better fits the front of a tire store.
There used to be an online recomendation from an association for fixed glass manufacturing (us? Can? eur?) that had scratch built designs that were good. Essentially look at a wood window from a major manufacturer and copy it for something to match what we usually think of as a good window.
Don't use silicone caulk to seal in the window since it isn't paintable, but there are many good polyurethane or other products. Let the glass sit on a rubber cusion of some sorts, such as the spacers that come separating the glass panes. One good carp I know uses old snow mobile belts. Mudflap material is about the right thickness as well.
It makes the most sense to put the rubber cusions in two places and the window should be shimed under those areas to minimize movement. Don't directly support the corners of the glass or they are more likely to break off. Stay in at least a few inches from the edges.
Scratch built wood window frames need to be very stable so the wood movement doesn't disrupt the seal to the glass or the life of the window will be short unless very good annual maintenance is followed.
I'm not going to suggest this for most construction, but if it's for your house and time is not a factor, look into using straight grained construction lumber, properly dried and definitely hand selected. Doug fir makes great window frames, and while the old growth stuff is more expensive than oak, hand selected structural select or really good #1's can be nearly as good. Keep an eye out for a really good bunk and buy all you can when the one-in-100 bunk comes along.
Drying kiln dried framing lumber indoors from the 16 percent to whatever your house is can take quite some time. For instance 5 months ago I picked up some 8' 4x4's for a custom bed frame for a spare bedroom and they have been kept so air can flow freely around them this entire time. Most of the wood had stabilized at 7 % (normal for indoor wood in Boise) in 4 months, but a few of the posts are still dropping and need to lose another 1% to 2%.
Buying construction grade kild dried doug fir that's at a lower moisture content, say 8%, is generally not worth the higher costs.
A hardwood supplier will have a number of weather resistant species, but cost can be high for many of them and some that are weather resistant on their own have a hard time taking paint.
I've built windows from clear pine, although it's often hard to know which kind of pine your buying, at least out west, so durability can be questionable unless it's kept in paint.
It's deceptive to want to use a synthetic wood substitute, often pvc, since they expand and contract like crazy in direct sun and it will be hard to keep the weather seal. Factory vinyl windows take this into account and the seals and drains keep the interior dry, but that would be a challenge for a scratch built window unless it was well sheltered.
If the window is well sheltered then it's very cost effective to scratch build a simple frame, especially in the larger sizes.
As with many things, a poorly constructed window will last a very long time with good paint and paint maintenance. A good (more expensive) window with so so paint will also last. To some extent there is no free lunch and what you give up in up front cost will get you down the road.
Most fixed windows that have been in place for more than a few decades that we pull out of remodels have leaked and damaged the wall and floor framing, sometimes a great deal.
Good building
Beer was created so carpenters wouldn't rule the world.
Don has the right idea on the fir, and I do exactly what he does, I should be mad at him for giving out the secert. But I search through the fir framing lumber at Home Depot and Lowes since it is kept indoors and pretty dry. I have found a lot of 2x6 that have been clear this way.When I want a nice fir exterior door jamb, I sometimes mill my own out of a nice 2x6. I've made three frames for old small wooden sashes the owners had in their garage for an addition, hinged the windows in two of them and fixed the other one with 2x6 lumber.When doing a small window you might just need a 3 or 4 foot clear section, this can be cut out of a 2x6 with one knot in the middle pretty easily.Don some sources should remain a secert, you gave it away man. But the price of a 2x6 beats clear vg fir, while not eaxctly true vg you can sometime a stud that has the appearance of it.Wallyo
Edited 1/31/2008 8:52 pm ET by wallyo
These are Fir, I had to make themm to match the doors.
View ImageSpheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
"Success is not spontaneous combustion, you have to set yourself on Fire"
But I search through the fir framing lumber at Home Depot and Lowes since it is kept indoors and pretty dry
Now you gave away another secret! There is nothing better than reaching the bottom of a stack of lumber at a big box to find good doug fir with moisture only a few % away from ideal. Some of the most beat up looking 2x's are great for windows because they're dry from being returned from a jobsite or have been scarred from months of forklift restackings and are quite dry.
If a window maker takes the same approach that a woodworker does, a kd doug fir 4x4 post can be cut into rough sizes, stickered and dried fairly quickly. Given a month lead time an awful lot of moisture can be taken out of fir if the lengths and widths aren't too thick.
I hate to admit it, but at any given time I have 1,000 board feet of lumber drying in my house. There's nothing better than filling up empty space with kd framing lumber and coming back in a few months to find cabinet grade gold!
Beer was created so carpenters wouldn't rule the world.
Done it often - (4) fixed replacements in this house. About $67 each, grills inside the unit.
View Image
Forrest
Edited 1/30/2008 7:00 pm ET by McDesign
I have been in the insulated glass biz for 20 years. Never considered using polyurethane caulk. Never used anything other then Dow 799. What am I missing?
I dunno, I just followed with what the shop handed me.Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
"Success is not spontaneous combustion, you have to set yourself on Fire"
What am I missing?
http://www.conservationtechnology.com/downloads/Weatherseals.pdf GG05 and GG10
PAHS Designer/Builder- Bury it!
Edited 1/31/2008 10:38 am ET by VaTom
Interesting product, but since it still requires a silicone seal where exposed to rain, I'll stick with DOW 799.
No silicone seal for fixed lites, just the EPDM as they suggest. 15 yrs experience, no degradation.
Not trying to convert you, you asked what you were missing. This is a great, inexpensive product.PAHS Designer/Builder- Bury it!
Tom- Their instructions state to seal exterior glazing exposed to rain with silicone and drill weep holes in fame for drainage. Are you saying not to follow their directions?
After 14 years here, I see no reason to change method. Compression is necessary. 2 sizes, depending on how straight your application is. The larger has an air channel, intended to compress to 1/8" (from 1/4"). If you have more than 1/8" variation in gap, you could get a leak.
Never a problem for us, shouldn't be for anybody.
We've used thousands of feet, both wood (including tulip poplar <G>) and copper clad windows. No problems. Apparently CYA from those sloppy enough to prevent a tight seal. Normally never have any overhang to protect windows. Virginia here, it rains.
As any product, there are limitations. If I couldn't build a window with closer than 1/8" tolerance to the glass, I wouldn't use this product. Or manufacture windows, for that matter.
We've had a succession of cats who like to hang from our window sills. There's a patina of claw marks in our seals. No leaks.
I'm sold.
PAHS Designer/Builder- Bury it!
Edited 2/5/2008 9:39 pm ET by VaTom
Heck if in 14 years you have no problem that is a better track record then Andersen. I'm fairly local ( Baltimore)where can I get your windows? What is your actual warrenty?
LOL... First you've gotta talk me into building you a concrete house. I've turned down 3 in the past year. Request for Minnesota this week.
This thread was about "Home build Fixed Pane Windows". Not that I don't have a couple of operable windows here. Here's one, notice I don't care for paint:
PAHS Designer/Builder- Bury it!
Forgot to mention that it's mountaintop here, horizontal rain happens. Wind, we get.
Edited 2/6/2008 11:11 pm ET by VaTom
For inexpensive fixed glazing, this is well worth doing. For large fixed units, I've often used replacement patio door glass (I always use lowE), as they're readily available in standard sizes and often less $/sf than custom sizes.
The proper technique is to set the double-glazed units on 1/4" neoprene setting blocks the same width as the full glass unit (typically 3/4"). Use one block at each corner, none in the middle. There should be at least 1/4" clear space around both sides and top for expansion - more if you're setting the glass unit directly into the rough opening so that any shrinkage or settling won't turn the glass into a load-bearing element.
Apply butyl glazing tape (with peel-off backing) to glass on each side such that the wooden stops will cover 1/8" past tape. This leaves a "keyway" for silicone or other clear caulk, which should be finished into a beveled bead on the outside for drainage.
The reason that the butyl tape is necessary is to prevent caulking agents from coming into contact with the butyl seals on the glass edges, as silicone and similar caulks will destroy the seals and cause premature failure and fogging.
Solar & Super-Insulated Healthy Homes
Edited 1/30/2008 8:49 pm ET by Riversong
All of mine, and most of a client house (which we copper clad, much nicer than my oiled frames). Next house will also be site built.
One thing I learned after-the-fact was to check top and bottom edges of custom insulated lites to see which was square. Often only one is (from the panes being slightly different sizes). That's the one to go to the bottom, saving seal stress.
I've found EPDM window weatherstripping far better than anything else. Resource Conservation Technology offers an excellent inexpensive one. http://www.conservationtechnology.com/
PAHS Designer/Builder- Bury it!
Is it possible or sensible to buy double pane glass from a glass house and build your own stops for all your fixed glass needs in DIY home build when sourcing all moving windows from a Pella or Andersen etal.
If your other windows are Andersen, another option would be to buy thier Flexaframe material to build your frames with. Its all formed and clad to match the rest of thier line and seals up well. If I recall, it available in 8' and 12' lengths.
I would assume that Pella and others have similar products available.
Terry