I’ve been asked to design a home for a client. I have previously designed and built two homes. This time though I will only provide the design as the home is being built elsewhere.
My question is: What would be a fair price/percentage to charge for a complete home design.
By complete I mean, initial design consultations, site plan, building drawings, elevations, interior elevations, kitchen layout, interior millwork details and ongoing consultation throughout the construction phase. Not to mention holding the client’s hands through all the application and permit stages of the project. I already know that the client will be high-maintenance
I already know the amount of work involved, And I know what my time is worth, I’m just not sure what a standard practice might be.
Any tips would be appreciated
Thanks
Scruff
Replies
You can't get enough for clients like those. I would charge time and materials!
what are your qualifications? are you an AIA member?
My qualifications are that I am a builder who designs and builds homes. I will pay for an engineer to stamp my drawings. This engineering fee will have to come out of my design fee to the client.
My qualifications are that I am a builder who designs and builds homes. I will pay for an engineer to stamp my drawings. This engineering fee will have to come out of my design fee to the client.
Scruff,
Just wanted to point out to you that your most valuable "qualification" is that (as you said in the previous post) your clients have seen and admire your work.
I've seen too many absolutely horrible plans produced by licensed architects to think that the licensing has any relationship whatsoever to quality.
As far as the engineering fees, most architects with whom I have had contact do NOT include that cost in their scope of services.
As far as price, as you can see from the responses, almost anything goes! Personally, I cannot fathom paying something like $80k, but that's just me, I guess. The only thing I'd add to the discussion is that "professional services" like engineering, architecture, etc., are often over $100 per hour -- quite a bit more than the average trade rates. Keep that in mind when you are determining what your time is worth.
Regards,
Ragnar
Thanks for your help. An hourly rate is likely the method we will agree on as they (the clients) willingly admit that they will likely want changes as we progress through the project. Thanks for the $ suggestion. That seem reasonable.
Although they have set a budget I know it will grow and therefore a percentage fee would be frustrating.
Another suggestion is to charge a flat fee for the initial design and then charge hourly after that.All this is helping to know what I can and should charge.Thanks againScruff
I give my clients an engineering "allowance", as a part of our design contract. I arrive at that with a phone call to one of the 6 engineering firms that work for us.
If the engineer who estimated cost originally is unavaliable when the plan is ready for engineering, you are not hurt with an alternate and the "allowance".
Another good suggestion ThanksScruff
It's amazing how many regional (and international, since you're in Ontario) differences there are - a number of the suggestions made in this thread are illegal in our state.
You don't distinguish much between design and construction drawings. In practice, there is a great difference, although with CAD one becomes the other eventually. If you are doing complete construction documents (including schedules, millwork and MEP plans) along with administration throughout construction a reasonable fee in our area for an Architect would be 10-15% of the construction cost. We don't bill that way because it is a conflict of interest - ie on a percentage basis the more the work costs the more the Architect gets paid.
In Ontario - your mileage may vary. Best to check with other design professionals locally, I think.
Jeff
Edited 3/1/2007 11:39 pm ET by Jeff_Clarke
"I already know the amount of work involved, And I know what my time is worth"
Seems to me you have your answer right there.
I agree Boss.
Just bid the thing based on your time and price and let the chips fall where they lay.b
blue"...
keep looking for customers who want to hire YOU.. all the rest are looking for commodities.. are you a commodity ?... if you get sucked into "free estimates" and "soliciting bids"... then you are a commodity... if your operation is set up to compete as a commodity, then have at it..... but be prepared to keep your margins low and your overhead high...."
From the best of TauntonU.
Dang - That's the first time you've agreed with me in a couple of years.(-:
I used to work at a health food store. I got fired for drinking straight Bosco on the job.
Sounds to me like somewhere between 8 and 16 percent of the hard costs of construction.
Hard costs would be costs to build, less land. At a cost of, say, $500,000, your fee might range from $40K to $80K.
That is what they would likely be looking at by hiring a full service architect. I know it sounds like a lot, but you gotta start somewhere.
Go to the website of the AIA firm "Sala," located in Minnesota. A big firm specializing in high end residential, they show various types of fees depending on levels of service.
Your clients can go on the web and buy a set of packaged plans, not site-specific, for somewhere between $1200 and $3000, then trust that their GC will get everything right, but it sounds as if they need more than that.
Please give us a little more background, explaining exactly why your services have been requested. Have they seen your work locally, and want the house built on some lot many miles away from your territory? Why the need for the ongoing consultation? Have they approached an architect? Are you an architect?
Boy I am in the wrong business!
[this is also to the OP]Don't believe all you read. The residential clients willing to pay 8-16% of hard costs are few and far between. Do some research on what the firm who is charging 10% does for that money. Are you positioned to provide that level of service? It often includes contract management, construction management, engineering, and a bunch else. You ready to put yourself in the middle of their contracts with other professionals? You equipped to hire engineers on their behalf and run the money? You ready to accept the liability risk that comes with that?The first thing one needs to do is decide the range of services that will be offered. For example, I provide designs, but do not handle other people's money, do contract management, or provide construction management services. And I have a contract that details that. Once you're clear on the scope of services, determine the amt of time required to provide those services. Then determine what your time is worth, and use that as the base case. $30/h? $50/h? $75/H? Other?
What the OP wanted was an idea of a fee for what sounds like a real full service package.
Around here where I am, a fee for a set of drawings only, for a site-specific house, 4BR, 3Ba, no site services, no permitting assistance, no followup, no design work for the inside such as kitchens, millwork schemes, etc., would run somewhere around $30K. More design work as the OP has described would cost more, of course.
The drawings would be wet-sealed appropriately by a state PE, which is a prereq for a permit.
I am aware of locations around the country where the same thing might cost under $10K, but I am relating what I know from my own locale, and we don't yet know what goes on where the OP operates, nor where the home is to be built.
Drawings only, in my area would be 3000 . It all depends on many factors.
80K? Now is this a full time job and require 8 hours a day for a year? 80K? Ok you think you are worth 120K / year. So I ask again, is this a full time job requiring full days work for the next eight months? If not were does anybody come up with a figure like that?
Not to mention that anyone paying that kind of money for designing a $500,000 home would be a fool. Ok, if you can get the money more power to you I suppose. Then again, I don't own a mask and a gun.
[Quote: 80K? Now is this a full time job and require 8 hours a day for a year? 80K? Ok you think you are worth 120K / year. So I ask again, is this a full time job requiring full days work for the next eight months? If not were does anybody come up with a figure like that?Not to mention that anyone paying that kind of money for designing a $500,000 home would be a fool. Ok, if you can get the money more power to you I suppose. Then again, I don't own a mask and a gun.]It's interesting that contractors seem to feel that architects have no overhead costs and 100% of their time is billable.The reality is that only about 50% of the time is billable, and overhead eats up about 50% of THAT. So maybe around 25% of the total fee is actually showing up on the income tax form as income. And this is PRE-tax. No insurance, social security, etc. included.For an $80K fee, that might equate to $20K of personal income. How long would you be willing to work for $20K of non-benefit salary? Around these parts (urban California)$100K as annual income doesn't go very far.
The clients have seen my work on previous homes and they want my style, my ideas and attention to detail. Especially is this the case on the interior as the millwork detail will be highly involved. This is also the case with space planning and cabinet layout. It will not be a large home but will need to use space wisely and will have a high finish level.
The ongoing consultation will be limited, and may be nil if we get a builder who cares. They are able to afford the services of a full-blown architect, but they already know what I am capable of and want one of my homes.
I can design homes as a designated home designer here in Ontario. I am not an architect. I am a builder who has grown into design.
A very general non-specific number used by architectural firms is often 7% construction costs (just drawings). You might use that as a baseline, then modify your price according to what you're comfortable with.
I'm just not sure what a standard practice might be.
The problem there being in defining what "standard practice" is.
Sure, we can generalize and offer numbers in the 5% - 11% range. Of "what" then can get sticky. Suppose the clients want to spend $150K, but want $750K of house--which number do "we" base the price upon?
Next, and this is really vexing, is the "where" of where the client's site is anymore.
In the county is different than in the City. In which City makes a difference, too (about 11% cheaper in my town than in our sister city, just in the bureaucratic overheads & required consultants). Travis County is different than Williamson County is different than City of Austin (or Manor, or Elgin, or Taylor, or . . . )
The only thing less well defined would be design cost by the square foot.
>The only thing less well defined would be design cost by the square foot.How so?I use that as a starting point, because there's a correlation between size and time for what I do. But then, it's just a starting point, and I modify my proposal based on details of that project and client.If I were to price as a percentage of cost, not only would I not be paid until all the costs were tallied, but I'd be charging clients for things that had nothing to do with my design. When steel prices rose 40% the other year, I'd get more money even though it created no extra work for me? If the client upgrades a faucet from Sterling to Grohe, I get more? I just got a new client who owns a radio station, for example. The front door for the house would cost you and me about $10k, but they're gonna pay a fraction of that and trade for advertising on the rest. I wouldn't want to make my fee contingent on that accounting!My personal approach is that I want to offer my clients a fixed price proposal. I gotta base it on something. I've found that, for me, size of house and perceived "high-maintenance-ness" of the clients is the best predictor of the time/effort required for the design. That's not to say that one-size-fits-all. If I were running contracts and other people's money, I might change the way I charge, too. But if I'm just providing a design, then the way I do it is hardly "less well defined."
I use that as a starting point, because there's a correlation between size and time for what I do. But then, it's just a starting point, and I modify my proposal based on details of that project and client.
Well, as point of fact, square foot (or cubic foot) actually would seem like the most reasonable way to bill for your designs.
What I was trying to get "at" was that picking any one percentage is a bit like picking one square foot price--there's as many reasons not to as to.
Square foot pricing doesn't tell a person any thing unless the finish is the same. Quantifying quality is a debate none of the hundreds of previous threads or those to come will ever fully solve. Should the client be billed more for a 2200 sf tract-house grade house than a fully-detailed, fancy/best materials 1400sf house?
Clients often don't "get" it without some time invested in showing/teaching them anyway. Ciphering that into one' business model wil lremain the trick that seperates the successful from the broke, I imagine.
One idea I've toyed with, at least intellectually, is to price by the sheet. If the customer wants a 4-sheet-wonder tract/planbook house, then, that'd be one price (or four, totaled up to one). A twenty-sheet plan set with all the City approvals and engineering would be another price. I've not got much further in the "thinking" about it than that. Troublesome details, like engineers billing by the sf, being one more thing to cipher on a bit. (Not that tax time will make a person go through the books or anything <g>.)Occupational hazard of my occupation not being around (sorry Bubba)
Should the client be billed more for a 2200 sf tract-house grade house than a fully-detailed, fancy/best materials 1400sf house?
No, the 1400 SF HO should be paying more per SF in our way of thinking.
Currently, we are designing a 600 SF 2 story addition in the city limits for a contractor / friend to build. It cost as much to design and spec as a 3200 LA / 4230 TOTAL SF home for one of our design / build clients in a rural county area.
After some degree of ponderance, I conclude that SF pricing is a somewhat abstract but effective base, and a way to describe cost. Cost per SF, from us, is arrived at by a study of particulars for each project, and translated in SF for understanding and perhaps market comparrisions.
It is interesting that other parts of the country, pricing can be 6-10% of construction cost for full set of plans and specs. A home we are doing now is a design / build with construction cost of $530,000.00. At 6% the design work would have been $31,800.00. Our charges were about 2%, although we did not arrive at pricing from a percentage of CC.
Maybe I should move. My portfolio would qualify for AIBD, and I took a sample test the other day, no studying or prep and missed 2 of 30 questions. I have the required professional references.
I could get.......heck nahhhhhhh...I am in Texas. Yeeehaaawww. Gimme anuther brew.
Edited 3/1/2007 7:49 pm ET by txlandlord
would qualify for AIBD
LoL!
Don't forget, after your $375 check to AIBD clears, they'll "strongly recommend" that you also join TIBD, so you can have two stamps not recognized in about half the municipalities in Texas . . . (and not to any rhyme nor reason, either).
I always got a kick out of seeing plans for [big tract builder] in Austin from [big planshop in houston] with AIBD, TIBD, and with a big circle, the CE's PE stamp, usually with a disclaimer note about "For Foundation Only" or the like; yet, approved by the City.
My medium-sized town, is now getting very picky about the stamps applied to plans for permits. They've even started citing TBLR and similar practice regulations, and applicability requirements. "Ordinary" residential work now has an extensive checklist for permits, not just floor, & site, plans & elevations, but foundation & framing (including Chap 6 IRC '03 compliance), and such. The one causing the most griping is the ResCheck page that's required.
Luckily we have a great excess of licensed architects about, else much of the DB work would be much slowed . . . Occupational hazard of my occupation not being around (sorry Bubba)
I agree...and have no problems in our area staying away from AIBD, and THC for that matter.
I used to be a member of NAHB / GHBA and Custom Builders Counsel, but $25.00 lunches, $50.00 $100.00 and $300.00 fees for this and that, so much per home, all of the junk mail, and the meetings and events are 50 miles + from my house caused me to quit.
We may just start our own GHBA...Greater Hungerford Builders Association.
We are now "Texas Registered Builders" and must be by law, $300.00 and $35.00 a house, and I have not even received a phone call. Who are these people?
Edited 3/2/2007 3:57 pm ET by txlandlord
Your pricing by the sheet concept isn't too bad... when we had to do a quick rough estimate at my firm that's often how we would go about making our estimates - figure out how many sheets were needed and then multiply by the number of hours per sheet and hourly rate to get your total. The question then becomes how many hours per sheet. Our 80 hours per sheet rule of thumb probably doesn't apply for single family residential - we were doing HVAC & energy center design for industrial plants.
It always boils down to how many hours you expect to spend and what your cost for your time is. We had a lot of different billing arrangements with our clients, but one that seemed to make the most sense was to bill at an hourly rate with a "not to exceed" clause. That way you know you are getting paid for the time you have put into it, and the client isn't feeling uneasy that you are just twiddling your thumbs watching the hours tick by and your fee increase...
My background is on the commercial/industrial PE side, but I would guess the underlying principles are the same for residential design...
It always boils down to how many hours you expect to spend and what your cost for your time is.
Too true, that's the "bread and butter" of a sensible business plan. "Business plans" being too often the least "taught" aspect of the design biz . . .
Now, for one's business analysis, there's nothing wrong with pricing versus square feet for one's analysis of previous projects. Nothing wrong with cubic foot comparisons, either, for that matter. But, business analysis tends to be auditing, a retrospective look at things. Whether that then makes a good basis for pricing "forward," well, we see how much debate the topic has brought so far.
Commercial work will lend itself to "simpler" pricing schemes much better than residential work--at least in my opinion. I do know of a DB builder who has opined a time or two that he ought to bill customers by the "corner," inside & outside. There's something to that, the "straight" bits are pretty linear. Could make a similar case, though, in residential, that design could be billed by the material.Occupational hazard of my occupation not being around (sorry Bubba)
>Should the client be billed more for a 2200 sf tract-house grade house than a fully-detailed, fancy/best materials 1400sf house?And that's why it's just a starting point. A 1400 house might be more or less work than a 2200 house. A fancy house might be more or less work than a lower-grade house. Depends on land (flat is easier than mountain), municipality (Las Vegas gets charged double from now on), complexity of layout (arranging 4 rooms is easier than arranging 8 rooms), cooperativeness of clients (decisive clients are easier than indecisive) and other factors.Every plan has flaws. With per hour, clients can bitch about the hours. With per sheet, they can insist that everything be combined on one. With % of cost, you're charging for things that have nothing to do with the cost of designing. For per sf, you can hit inequities such as you described.I've found the greatest positive response from clients is a predictable price, so for me that means a fixed price contract with an unambiguous escalator if they change the scope of the work. Like with fixed-bid construction, if I guessed wrong, it's my nickel that's lost.
With per sheet, they can insist that everything be combined on one.
Well, see that's why it's nagging at me. I can show a client what the AHJ requires, which often defines the sheets.
In town, it's 4 plus the ResCheck, and both the Floor Plan and Framin/Foundation plans are going to be very dense in graphics. The P&D people have gotten over any bashfullness about sending plans back and requiring new sheets to seperate information.
So, yeah, they can insist. Same way they can insist their cousin's brother's nephew's neighbor's boy built $150/sf for $40/sf, so why can't they, too?
If I had the concept nailed down, and/or in a state to offer as a business model, I'd be off doing that, too . . . Occupational hazard of my occupation not being around (sorry Bubba)
First off, I am not an architect, or anything like that, but I am a HO. I just recently looked into architects in my area (by Detroit, MI), and the price I was quoted for design work (including site plan, elevations, etc.) was b/w $1 - $2 / ft2. That is the basic price, and if you wanted something "dramatic" that might be complicated, that was based on what they thought would be appropriate for the amount of work put into it. I am buildling about a 2,500 ft2 2-storey home, and I am expected to pay about $3 - $3,500 based on the architects who I have met so far.
Not sure if this helps, but I know the price jumps quite a bit if I wanted some very crazy designs in the house, etc.
From the HO side of things, I would say start with $2.50/ft2 and go from there?
That's much more typical than the other numbers listed, unless you jump into commercial work or Taj Mahal-style uber-mansions, etc. FWIW, my base rate is $2.50/sf. I wouldn't work for $1/sf, but then, the round, sculpted stuff I do takes much, much longer to design/render/CAD than rectilinear stuff.
Here in the Houston area, pricing is from $0.80 - $3.50+ per SF of TOTAL area, living and non-living, and based on the complexities of the home and services desired.
The average is probably about $1.25 per SF for the plans, and spec writing can vary from $75.00 to $1,000.00 +.
Edited 3/1/2007 7:13 pm ET by txlandlord
sounds like you have a good eye for detail. if they are willing to pay you well for your services then go for it. I would get a set fee for the initial drawings then work on an hourly basis for hand holding with maybe a 2 hour minimum.
if you could whip up a set of plans in 4 weeks would 10K plus $65 per hour consulting fee work?
This looks to vague to me. I am guessing the HO has quite some confidence in you to design the home and "guide" you thru the construction phases. This could involve considerable time and efforts for you. In my opinion the fairest way would be to get paid for the time you are involved, wether this is time on the drawingboard or driving to the jobsite and meet various trades, design issues, getting quotes, etc. If the HO sends you shopping for materials or just wants to chat on the construction site, it is up to him how he wants to spend the money. It also lets you decide where you want to spend time, not being chained to the project, unless the HO pays you a monthly salary and your jobdescription has to be airtight. 2 week payperiod, when money gets tight (usually toward the end of the project) you would be the last to get paid.
For me: Hourly rate for time spend, nothing less, nothing more
10% of the homes finished value...that is standard architect fees in central PA. The work you are describing is exactly what an archie will perform
Given the full-service needs of the client the only way that makes sense is T&M. In the SF Bay Area 2 years ago that was $85/hr for an AIA (I got quotes ranging from $75 to $120). Services included acting as quality control and approval for all invoices (and she had a good realtionship with the GC so it was a positive experience for all). Worth every penny. Engineering services billed separately; blueprints at cost.
Scruff,
First of all, if you've already "designed" and built two houses for your client before you already have a good relationship with your client.Obviously, when you did the first two project, you had a $$ value agreed on for your services. In your case, the "design" portion of those jobs should be your guide to what you should charge.
However, as I read the responses from others, a question pops up "Are you an architect?" My questions to help you guide your soul searching for a proper "amount to charge" is "How much liablility are you willing to take on?"
I guess anybody can buy a cad program, mass produced house plans, xerox someone elses' house, even pick up a pencil and a roll of paper and draw up house plans.
How much service are you really offering, how much are you leaving up to the qualified trades in the field, and once again, how much liability are you willing to take on?
Depending on what part of the country you're in, your client will need an architect signed and sealed Construction Documents. So, what is the service you are really providing your client?
joe... good point...
designing for one's own account is one thing
designing plans that someone else can build from without errors & omissions insurance is another whole can of worms
just the cost of DEFENDING a suit brought by someone using your plans could be a very expensive proposition
how do plan services protect themselves , do you know ?Mike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
I'm not sure that plan services really care that much.
The house plan magazines and websites all copyright their products. They sell their packages in various sized packages (i.e. floor plans and elevations, complete construction documents, prints, reproducibles, cad packages). If any architect wants to use these it is now being preached by the insurance companies and attorneys to get some form of written permission from the company to use the drawings. That however, doesn't mean the architect can just sign and seal that set of drawings. That's breaks the law that the drawings were drawn by or directly under the supervision of the architect.
The best practice is to get a written approval from the author of the drawings, if that's the route you choose.
I know that there are builders, homeowners, even architects (active or inactive) building in parts of the country or continent that do not require permit submitted drawings to be signed and sealed by an architect or engineer, for whatever real reason the municipality decides to do so.
Using a drafting service is another sticky issue. From what I read and hear at continuing education seminars, using a drafting service, off site from your office, gets sticky if a problem with the project occurs that leads to some litigation.
Using a drafting service is another sticky issue. From what I read and hear at continuing education seminars, using a drafting service, off site from your office, gets sticky if a problem with the project occurs that leads to some litigation.
Interesting, how so?
As printed in LICENSED ARCHITECT (vol. 9, no. 1, 2005) according to James K. Zahn on the topic of Independent Drafting Services, "The Illinois Architecture Practice Act of 1989 requires the Architect who signs and seals the drawings to have "reasonable control". This means that the amount of control over and detailed professional knowledge of the content of technical submissions during their preparationas is ordinarily excercised by architects applying their required professional standard of care. Merely reviewing or reviewing and correcting the technical submissions or any protion thereof by those not in regular employment of the office where the architect is residenct without control over content of such work throughout its preparation does not constitute responsible control."
It was further explained that if ARCHITECT A comes to an agreement with DRAFTING SERVICE B, and a claim is filed agains ARCHITECT A for allegedly violating the Illinois Architecture Practice Act, ARCHITECT A has to prove reasonable control over. ARCHITECT A has to prove HOW he/she was in responsible chargeof the preparation of the documents. Specific information concerning the individual(s) who prepared the drawings (names, hourly wages, direct supervisiors, states they are licensed in, what each individual specifically did in the preparation of the documents). ARCHITECT A may also be required to demostrate that payroll, state and federal taxes have been properly paid.
There's a lot more burden on the ARCHITECT. So the moral is to read the Architectural Act in the state you are registered in and to be familiar with what you can do and can't do. All it takes is for someone to file a claim against you to turn your world upside down.
I would beet they have some sort of disclaimer as part of the sales agreement when you send your $600 or whatever to them for a set of "plans" that advises that local modifications might be necessary to comply with....
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
Most of the canned plans places I've seen do a big disclaimer thing, or else they issue you a "one time use" license (which includes the disclaimer).
In my area, I've known designers that charge anywhere from $2,000 to $3,000 for a set of 'plans' that include nothing for engineering and framing -- just pretty drawings and big open spaces where issues of framing should be laid in. They are smart enough to not include anything that involves structural in order to keep their liability lower.
I knew one client who paid $4500 for three pages of plans for a complicated design for a remodel and the jerk she buyed from told her they were enough for others to bid on. Not so, it was lie and she should have taken him to court for fraud. No framing plan for floors and ceiling does non constitute "buildable".
I had another client who told me they paid $4000 for a full set of engineered, stamped plans complete with septic design, full framing and site plan. The plans were nice and the firm was professional.
I also have designed, from Autocad, builds that we proposed and know well it is a time consuming and extensive job. Also, a complete review by an engineer is always in order, which until said plans for engineer are complete, one has no idea the changes that may be in order. Regardless of code or muncipality requirements, I would never design or build anything out of the ordinary without an engineer's blessing. Muncipal limitations or requirements mean nothing in court.
I'd definitely charge by the hour and like others have said, in my experience engineers and architects will charge anywhere from $85 to $125 an hour. Especially that you say they are potentially high maintenance, I'd have not only an agreement on a time rate, but also an agreement of invoicing at certain intervals -- and don't work until each interval is paid in full, to avoid doing a hundred hours of work without getting paid. I am sure that will keep some of their fantasies in check and your headache margin lower.
Girlbuilder, I think regional differences must be in play here. I rarely see a framing plan. 99% of the time, our houses use dimensional lumber for the floors and I have never saw a framing plan for that. 99% of the time, the roofs are trussed and the plans simply state that that truss are over. As soon as the building dept sees that trusses are going to be used, they automatically know that a truss framing plan and specs will be generated.
So, the plans that we receive to bid a job will not have any "framing plan" and furthermore, even if a plan shows trusses or floors running this way or that, when the truss plans show up, everything might change, to accomodate their wishes.j
Like I said...it might be a regional thing.
blue"...
keep looking for customers who want to hire YOU.. all the rest are looking for commodities.. are you a commodity ?... if you get sucked into "free estimates" and "soliciting bids"... then you are a commodity... if your operation is set up to compete as a commodity, then have at it..... but be prepared to keep your margins low and your overhead high...."
From the best of TauntonU.
When you get handed a set of plans with say, a full dormer spanning over an open concept space, who decides where and how the bearing is placed? What is used? Who takes liability for those decisions? I sure as heck am not interested in assuming that liability. That's what I'm saying. I understand that framing for an average sized, dimensioned house (ranch or typical cape) is pretty straight forward, but less and less do I see that kind of a plan conceived or desired.
My comments are primarily aimed at new houses.
A dormer might be shown on a set of plans, with no framing or structural detail. The truss company would determine the beams that would carry the loading. As a framing contractor, I'd just assume that there were some beams of some sort carrying it, so it really doesn't affect my price.
Remodeling is a different beast but the realities are such that a beam would still be there to carry the weight. The cost of the beam could vary greatly, so I'd be careful about pricing one. At some point though, someone is going to have to spec the beams.
As a general contractor, we rely on the truss companies all the time. If they send something out that doesn't seem right, we call them on it and if they confirm it and we still don't think it's right, we call an architect buddy.
I sense that you are more concerned about liability than we are. We don't live in a seismic zone so all the concerns about things falling down are a lot more minimized. In our state, if something fails, it'll show some slow signs and failure and we'd simply go back and beef up the beams.
blue"...
keep looking for customers who want to hire YOU.. all the rest are looking for commodities.. are you a commodity ?... if you get sucked into "free estimates" and "soliciting bids"... then you are a commodity... if your operation is set up to compete as a commodity, then have at it..... but be prepared to keep your margins low and your overhead high...."
From the best of TauntonU.
Well yes, I see your point. We deal mostly with remodels, which deal with a whole set of unknowns as many houses around here are not built to code or to any older code one is left to figure it out.Yes, liability for the build is a concern of mine, walls cracking under inappropriate loads, etc. I don't take any of that with a grain of salt, especially when one has to get an accurate price involving materials and labor. I find often with remodels people have no idea of the extent of reworking that is involved or the issues of whether the original structure can hold their high flying schemes. I've not been in this business for a long time, but I've done enough work on designs and in the field to know that an accurate accounting for what is going to be called for is essential in not only pricing, but also planning (which of course is a large part of estimating the costs as well). Around here we don't do a lot with trusses, most remodeling work and even a lot of new builds are stick built. That's not to say that I shouldn't look into doing more with trusses, I've spec'd some simple builds with trusses. I assume you are out west?