What would the best way to do a blueprint be? We’ve looked online but it seems very expensive ($800 for repro. copy w/no mod.) and we’d want to add/change a few things (VERY pricy and priced a la carte).
Is there a reasonably priced pc software out there we could use that’s user friendly? Or shoudl we try and make nice with an prof. arch. to do it for us?
Crystal
My job as a mother is to work myself out of a job.
Replies
The general consenus here is that buying stock plans off the internet is not a good idea. As you noted, they are expensive, and they are not quite what you want. What you have not realized yet is that manyb times your local building permit office won't accept them, so ytou end up having a local architect review and approve them, adding to the cost.
As to doing your own plans with a drawing program ... that's a common discussion here. How much exxperience do you have with a cad program? How much experience do you have with designing a home? The good programs are not cheap, like around $1,000. There are people here who have done it, so don't give up too easily. But yopu might find that a local archy is the best solution.
"When asked if you can do something, tell'em "Why certainly I can", then get busy and find a way to do it." T. Roosevelt
Paying a professional is a small price to pay for a large investment, that you may spend the rest of your life in.
I know people that won't think twice about spending thousands for a front door, but the professional designer will be expected to provide services for a fraction of the door cost.
i WAS QUOTED $1-2 PER SQ FT for an architect, thats $4000! Am I m issing something here? Plans online are >$800 for reproduceables.Crystal
My job as a mother is to work myself out of a job.
"WAS QUOTED $1-2 PER SQ FT for an architect, thats $4000! Am I m issing something here? Plans online are >$800 for reproduceables"If you built your house, I'm assuming 2,000 feet. what is your budget? What are you planning on spending for the house? How can you not see the value in paying 4,000 for a set of custom house plans, totally catered to what you are looking for? That 4,000 will end up being a small fraction of what you spend to build your house. A good design can make or break your entire project. And think of this, the value of your finished product will easily be well over 4,000 greater for a well designed aesthetically pleasing home. I don't understand why people think getting an architect is not important. Is it that a set of plans is just not tangible enough for you to realize the amount of work and figuring that goes into them, or maybe people get a little shell shocked because the architect is often one of the first big price tag items that they are hit with?Either way, I strongly suggest you bite the bullet and get the architect, you will be glad you did. Oh yeah...make sure to hire a good one, not some student who's "good at drawing."Sorry for the rant, it just needed to be said. The plans you get online can't hold a match...."Oh, this is the worst-looking hat I ever saw. What, when you buy a hat like this I bet you get a free bowl of soup, huh? Oh, it looks good on you though."
Great points, good advise, and well said......except.......
The plans you get online can't hold a match....
Actually, many of the plans available as "stock plans" online, were drawn originally as "custom homes". The quality of the information is generally great, but as you noted, some mods have to be done so as to conform to local codes.
Stock plans are in no means a finite answer....they just get you most of the way there for a fraction of the cost of a custom design.
The biggest problem for an architect is that most people do not know what it is they really want/need in a home (design style, sq ftg, etc) and have a hard time conveying it to their designer. Stock plans help in this scenario.
BTW...I did not think that the price ALOLCO was quoted for a custom design was bad at all. Around here...avg is $3/sf.
Sticker shock remains a continuing problem in the design profession. Maybe it is as you said....not something tangible enough....
Why is it that a HO will pay $65 an hour to have a drain cleaned out, or $600 to $800 to add a "change order" window, or as you noted thousands for a door, or granite, or Italian tiles, or whatever....but the guy w/ a degree and years of experience who will spend weeks at a time working on all the details that comprise the plans for a custom home is not worth even 1% of the const cost?
Sorry for ranting.....sore topic.
You called me on it, I think I already knew that. I was trying to cram it all in and I made that comment in haste. Let me elaborate:I think the plans are good and provide all the right information to build a house, but the process of ordering a set of plans onligne can't hold a match to the process of designing a home with an architect. An architect knows all the local codes. An architect may be familiar with local builders, inspectors, retailers, etc. An architect will work with you throughout the ENTIRE process. They can give you sound advice early on as to whether you are designing to fit your budget. Architects do a lot of hand holding along the way. It is the personal interaction between the client and THEIR architect that makes it money well spent. A lot of times, people want to build a house, and they get confused because they don't know where to start. Step 1 - call an architect. "Oh, this is the worst-looking hat I ever saw. What, when you buy a hat like this I bet you get a free bowl of soup, huh? Oh, it looks good on you though."
Having done both......well said.
I agree w/ you 100%.
Now.....how to convince the OP?
If the OP thinks that architectural services should be cheap, then I would suggest she buy a book a book of plans from HD. Does she negotiate with her doctor, why is it that architects are expected to do pro bona work. Some people have nerve.
Hey now, don't get all 'your time of the month' on me. As I've stated before, we're new to this. I think the PP had it right that it's the first major expense (that we have to pay out of pocket) before we can apply for the mortgage. Crystal
My job as a mother is to work myself out of a job.
Crystal, the plans that you see in books are usually drawn with one thing in mind: they want to impress you, the buyer to buy them. They are drawing eye candy.
If you try to build off them, they contain lots of regional differences as well as practicality issues. You might very well end up with many thousands of dollars in un-needed charges.
We built a house for a builder last year that used one of these sets without having it redrawn. After we had it up, we showed him where he could have made the house 20 sf bigger and saved about $8000 worth of beams, truss engineering, carpentry labor, hvac labor and saved a few days time. Time is money in the building business!
If you don't like that architects price, keep shopping but don't try to beat those mail order prices. It won't happen. You might get lucky and get a good mail order set of plans too, but I wouldn't bet on it. I might be able to dig one out, but you probably don't know what your looking for.
blue
On-Line or thru the books of plans.."300 family homes"..etc can be ok. I bought a set via the magazines at the book store. There are probably 2000 plans at any one time on the market. Nothing is what you want. this is how you deal with it.
Just sit in the bookstore and take a stack of those magazines. (there are probably 50 at any one time) and page thru them. You end up settling on 6 or 7 magazines that you buy. Take the magazines home and dog-ear the pages you like and keep on preselecting the designs that fits your needs.
Rip out the pages and make a stack. (generally the 800 phone number is on the bottom of the page.
Hit some more book stores and see if there is anything else you see that is attractive.
Select thru your ripped sheets and make a decision.
Look or call to see that the plans have an architects's seal. The seal works for the plans as drawn.
Choices can be made here.
For 800 bucks (6 years ago) you could get a print set. The price depends on the market and the designer I suppose. You can buy copies directly but there has to be a local Kinko's that will copy the C or D size drawings for a few bucks a sheet. There is a contract you sign into that says you are building only one house and the plans remain theirs ...
If the house is right, then go with those plans. You'll need to make 8 copies and start the building.
Cheapo alteration method is to use whiteout on one set of the printset and redraw the details you need. Then go to Kinko's again and print up new prints....However and this is a BIG however, You need to know the details about load bearing walls, wet or plumbing walls, and lots of etceteras. If you screw with the structure of the building in a hap-hazard way you endanger people. If you are all about cosmetics this isn't for you. If you truly have the capabilities this can work. If you only think you are doing the right thing then go to plan B
Plan B is talk with the people that made the print set. All plans are brokered to sell to you by "300 homes in a book incorporated" in the title block of the printset is a company name that drew them up. city & state are also there. Dial directory assistance find the firm and ask to talk with the person that created the printset. For a nominal fee (consider a draftsman works at a burdened rate of 65$ to 100$ an hour) they'll alter the prints and send you a new set.
A third option would be to draw it yourself 600 to 800 for AutoCad LT software, your time and effort learning about stress walls, tiedowns, floor spans...I think the list goes on for several hundred features. All of which are CODE that doesn't tell you what to do just what is acceptable. I'm not trying to scare you off of this. I'm just describing the depth you are going to have to go to in order to design and build properly and legally.
A 4th option is the licensed Architect. Most likely they will do a variation on an existing theme as well.
Personally I did plan B. Changed a Northwestern style post & beam cabin to a post & beam married to I joists for rafters & floor joists. Not as pretty but it was a family project doable by two adults and our teen boys.
This is really a wheat from the chaff project but there is a lot of paper you need to consume before you decide to build. At least for me.Jack of all trades and master of none - you got a problem with that?
Basically what we've done and I think we'll stick with is searched though online floor plans, selected a few we liked then altered one to match what we would like to have. We scaled it in Visio. We'll take this to the archy and let him creat the house (changing anything that needs to be to code for our state) but giving him a pretty good idea what we want, room sizes, layout etc. I'm hoping this will reduce the fee of the plans if they don't have to make something from scratch or waste time helpign us decide what we want.Crystal
My job as a mother is to work myself out of a job.
It wont change the cost, but it might let him / her have a better feel for what you think you want, which isnt all bad. But fair warning, architects think about buildings different than builders and most homeowners do. You're looking at plans and square footage. Most archies I know wouldnt even entertain having that conversation with you without first seeing what the site is.
While an architect can draw a set of plans, you're asking them to do something which is pretty low on their skill set ladder. Its hiring a renown surgeon to remove a corn. If all you want is to translate a sketch into a buildable print, theres all kinds of CAD folks out there who make their bread and butter off doing just that. An architect is going to want to try to make you, the building, the site, all do something very specific and catered to your lifestyle.
You might both be happy, if that really is all you want, if you found a plans service locally. Architects certainly have their place in the world. I wish more people considered them in their preliminary plans. They can create something you'll live in and be happy with which is not at all what you first envisioned. Well, my experiences anyway. "A bore is a man who, when you ask him how he is, tells you." -Bert Taylor
Crystal
I came from an area in Iowa where some of the biggest and best houses were designed by a house designer, not an architect. I'm sure that an archy had to look at the design to approve the thing(or whatever they do) but the cost was still substantially less then an architect design. Matter of fact one of the nicest houses I worked in was designed by an architect in Florida for a house to be built in Iowa. This house was going to pot until the prints were sent over to this house designer that I mentioned in order to straiten the mess out.
I'm not bashing architects and I'm not trying to take any business away from them(come to think about it, I cant recall the last time one of those damn architects sent any business my way!) just letting you know that there are other sources out there.
Doug
I agree Doug. I've framed a lot of houses by house designers that were excellent.
I've had good experieces with Archys too.
I've had bad experiences with both.
blue
Likewise I am in MO and there is no statewide requirements. The only requirements are what local cities ahve adoppted. In general, that means that most residential and light commercial structures don't need an arch or any engineering if it can be done with code tables.When I build my house I had use a house designer that has plan books that many of the local builders used at the time. He was vaguly familar with the lot as he used to party with the next door neighbors. And he knew that what I wanted to do would not work on that lot. So I did a rough topo and he worked out a set of plans. Then when into his book, but I doubt if they where ever used again because they where designed to fix a spefic and difficult lot. But they might have been the base for another design.I was only charge the standard book price, but that might have been because I knew him.But the advantage of having a custom design is that it can be made for the location. And include not only things like slope (in my case), but sun angles, view, prevailing weather, etc.However, I see that she is in Florida and IIRC everything needs to have an engineers stamp. If that is the case and there is not a requirement for an archy's stamp then a local designer would be a good option.
Lots of good advice here. I'll toss my worthless opinions in on the architect side . . . :)-- Home designers. There are companies that design homes who are not architects. At least in central Ohio, an architectural stamp is not necessary to do homes unless they have a basement, then it needs either an architect's or engineer's stamp for the foundation walls only. Home designers can be good or bad. Depends on what you're looking for. My (biased) opinion is they tend to follow trends rather than practice solid design. But regardless of how you proceed, check out their previous projects to get an indication of what your designer/builder can do.
-- Stock plans. They aren't cheap, and you will invariably want to make changes to them that will require somebody to change them and take responsibility for them. And you'll pay for those changes. And if you try to simply reproduce the design outright, it's copyright infringement that will be on your head. I've worked on revising stock plans and it usually sucks in every direction. The designs are often not contextual to the area, they're designed for 'wow' value only, or they're trite, cliched, or repetitious. Find something you like, but use it as a baseline to start the process and develop your own house from that.
-- Architects. They charge what they charge. And there's good and bad architects, just like good and bad contractors. But don't look at it as an additional cost. Ideally, the price you pay for one will be additional value in your home. Look at some past FHB magazine 'Home' editions, then go to any neighborhood and tour their spec houses. There's no comparison. And, again, ask to see examples before settling on somebody.You'll get strong opinions on this subject from everybody. My biggest gripe about home-owners is that they often treat the project like they're buying a toaster at WalMart. They limit themselves to horrible McMansions and similar tripe, then convince themselves that it's good. Do some research. Go to the library. Go to bookstores. Try to stay away from the Good Housekeeping stuff . . . it's been done. Open your minds, think about what really makes you happy. Not realtor terms of 2 1/2 baths, mother-in-law suites, 3-car garages, finished basements, etc., but: what kind of space best lets you play with your kids? What kind of light do you want to read the morning paper? How can you make two spaces into one for Christmas gatherings, Passovers, Thanksgivings, etc.? You shouldn't be making a house. You should be making memories. Get infected, get enthusiastic, get pumped. Get educated.Couple of good books off the top of my head: Sarah Susanka's 'The Not So Big House' and Terence Conran's 'The Essential House Book.' Hope this helps.
Edited 3/9/2006 11:02 am ET by draftguy
"You can buy copies directly but there has to be a local Kinko's that will copy the C or D size drawings for a few bucks a sheet. There is a contract you sign into that says you are building only one house and the plans remain theirs ..."
Careful here....
Actually......That is a direct copyright infringement (Article 17) and subject to penalties of up to (I think it's $200,000 now). You can loose your "new house" over this.....not worth it.
It would be much better advise to bite the bullet and buy the extra sets needed directly from the original source.
Careful is right. Depends on the contract. If you sign/ agree with the contract you need to comply...however it is kinda far afield from the original issue.Due to lack of response it seems the poster is awash in indecision.Jack of all trades and master of none - you got a problem with that?
Well....you sure gave her a lot of good advise to think about. I figure she's got it now.
Not meaning to hang Article 17 out there, but a lot of good architects and residential designers loose thousands in renenue each year due to illegal copying.
In the "stock plan industry" it is not commonly a contractural item. Most stock plans issue copyright stsatements directly, and clearly, right in the title block of every page in the set of blue prints.
Reproduction rights are only granted to purchasers of "Sepia Mylars" or other reproducible copies. Never on "blue prints".
>Reproduction rights are only granted to purchasers of "Sepia Mylars" or other reproducible copies. Never on "blue prints".I send clients pdf's and allow them to reproduce as necessary for their project. Recently one needed me to write a letter to that effect, be/c the copy service was refusing to copy them without specific permission! I respect their appreciation of the copyright laws!!!
Cool.....do you only do custom, or have you done "stock plans" too?
I only do custom at this point. There's a mental block I've not been able to overcome, which is that a plan book has designs in search of a family, while my mindset is that my customer is a family needing a house that fits them. I've never figured out how to place the design before the family, or to create a design without a specific family or site in mind. Whatever I'd create would be inadequate...might be cute or dramatic, but would be missing something.
If you wanted to.....you could offer the "custom" homes as "stock".
In custom....pdf's will work fine, and copying is not such an issue.
In stock plans however...designer makes a royalty based on a fixed % of the $$ amount of the sale.
So, a customer that buys 1 set of plans for $500, instead of 8 sets for $900, and proceeds to have the additional 7 copies made locally, is essentially ripping off the designer.
Yeah, I know the economics are different...it's an entirely different business model. Haven't studied up on it...an unnecessary complication. Maybe someday I'll change my perspective on that...doing what works for me for now.
GReat.
If you decide to chase it and need info, let me know. It is actually easier than you think.
In a case like yours I would think you might want to put a standard release in the title block.Something like "Plans might be reproduced, but restricted for use on the John Smith house at 1234 N. South St".
I do have some language there, but they were being overly cautious
>i WAS QUOTED $1-2 PER SQ FT for an architect, thats $4000! Am I missing something here?Yes. An awareness, or possibly an appreciation, for the work that goes into creating an appropriate design. An appreciation of the difference between an appropriate and an inappropriate design. And an appreciation for the value added by a professional who knows how to create a design that is appropriate for your specific family.By analogy, I'm dealing with someone now who is questioning the cost of construction. Their position is that the material costs are $x + $y + $z per sf, so why should the final price be anything other than x+y+z. Well, aside from conveniently overlooking things like worker's comp and insurance and taxes and labor and profit, he is mostly discounting the value added from having a professional who knows how to use those materials properly and skillfully.A good architect (or a building designer) does a whole lot more than draw lines on a piece of paper. Not that that's trivial, be/c for a typical custom design I'll produce 10 pages of drawings and they take about a day each to produce, and that's in addition to all the client contact, engineer and builder contacts, and conceptual design time. Beyond the drawings, it's their job to envision the entire building from all angles, to imagine how it will look in the neighborhood, how it will fit the families preferences, priorities, personality, and possessions, how the systems will work together (plumbing/elec/hvac), how the building will relate to its environment. They have to (or should) picture how it will be built, to anticipate and avoid situations that will cause the builders undue hardship. Do you know that a good designer will build the entire structure step-by-step in his/her head, and via model if necessary, to be certain that it all works physically and technically, and that it achieves the initial vision? Someone who sees design as only a floor plan will not have an appreciation of this process. They will see a house design as the placement and assembly of walls, whereas a true designer will see design as almost exactly the opposite--the creation of spaces, and their relationship to each other and the world outside.
Sorry if my tone seemed a little off. That was just FAS (frustrated architect syndrome) : )
In all honesty, I truely think it is sound advice to hire an architect. In the end, I think the extra 3200 will be some of the best money you will have spent.
And this way, if you or the builder have a question, you will have somewhere to turn for an answer.
Good Luck
"Oh, this is the worst-looking hat I ever saw. What, when you buy a hat like this I bet you get a free bowl of soup, huh? Oh, it looks good on you though."
Edited 3/8/2006 4:32 pm ET by xosder11
Here is my two cents worth -
If you draw your own design, odds are good that unless you know residential design and your local codes, you are likely to make errors that will cost you more than $4000. You might be intelligent and motivated enough to no do that or to be able to sufficiently work around it, but not knowing you and only knowing the dozens of previous customers in your position...
Another option - There are some fairly well made modular and panelized homes on the market. These companies have in-house designers working to make adjustments to their stoick plans and some do custom work. Their local sales rep should also know and be able to help navigate the local codes issues.
And speaking of in-house designers, there is a lot of growth in this industry in design-build outfits, some qualified and some not. As with finding an archy, check references and past jobs/customers
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I've heard plenty of horror stories about working with stock plans and I've lived a few horror stories working with Architects. On balance, I'd go with the architect. The biggest problems I've had with the architects involves some that don't really know the codes well enough (you'd think that wouldn't be a problem), delays when a change is required, and having them detail something that's shall we say "difficult" to build when an easy solution is available. I can only see those problems being multiplied a hundred fold starting with a stock plan.
On the flip side of the coin, much more often the architect saves me from doing something stupid or dangerous (or both) and adds indispensible value when it comes to the overall design (I am dumb enough to believe I can build just about anything, but the question always becomes what to build -- that's not what I do best -- that's what the architect does for a living).
$4k for a set of stamped house plans sounds very reasonable to me, but maybe fees are higher where I am.
"A job well done is its own reward. Now would you prefer to make the final payment by cash, check or Master Card?"