A question about waste lines, not water supply. I’m
just an “amateur” plumber asking this.
One of our local manufacturers is offering a “total
plumbing solution” for new residential construction
involving home-run plumbing of water supply and waste
lines.
The promo looks very slick: you send them your
plans and they create plumbing design drawings, assemble
a complete set ofproprietary components and ship them
to you in a box. Then you plumb the whole house at
lightning speed.
I am familiar with systems involving PEX for water supply,
but had never seen such a system for waste lines. This one
uses a centrally-located cleanout header, which has holes
for about half a dozen waste lines coming in. These waste
lines are made not of PVC or ABS pipe but of some sort
of black flexible hose (ribs outside are squared off).
So I imagine installation is very fast and easy.
Anybody familiar with such systems?
Replies
Any flexible drain line will probably end up giving trouble. How do you maintain slope? What is the certification of the pipe?
DO you have a link to their web site so we can check out what you are looking at?
FWIW, any ribs on the inside of waste pipe will lead to slowing of solids. NOT a good thing for free flowing waste!
Frank DuVal
You can never make something foolproof because fools are so ingenious.
OK, here is a rendering of how this "system plumbing"
setup is supposed to work. Product is by Japanese maker
Toto (maker of Neorest toilets, and all sorts of other
plumbing supplies). It's on their website, but it's
not in English, and it's not a product for export to
USA (where vent stacks, hehe, are required by code)
Venting?Scott.Always remember those first immortal words that Adam said to Eve, “You’d better stand back, I don’t know how big this thing’s going to get.”
Venting, heh. Their code does not require venting
for low rise residential. P-traps are supposed to
be enough. Also there is some sort of trap outside
the foundation. I dunno about that.I am attaching some more files from the promo for
this system. (Sorry I forget how to make them
visible inline in Breaktime.)The caption for each photo explains the sales pitch
for each feature of the system. But here is my
explanation. Easycleanout shows the pipe is gently curved so you
can snake it out easier.PrecutNoWaste means less jobsite garbage and no
onsite fabrication at all. (!)SleeveInsert means that you can pull the old insert
out and replace it without breaking your foundation
concrete.OldWayVSnew shows that there is a lot less piping
and traps, etc. as a result of using the 6 port
header trap (gray water only)Anti-Backflow trap shows how the trap prevents
graywater backflow, and also makes cleanout easy.
A couple of other comments. I personally like the idea of using the header
trap. And I think this would make the use of a
gray water heat recovery device easier, since
you are putting all your gray water into one
pipe downstream from the header.I've seen other header traps like this in other
Japanese plumbing literature, so this is not
the only kind. Some are long and tubular and have
more ports.Also, I think I have seen this black accordion
pipe being used on commercial construction projects,
only I think they were using it outside.
I wonder how those flex lines would react to snaking out blockages. Without venting, I assume that two storey installations would be unadvisable.Scott.Always remember those first immortal words that Adam said to Eve, “You’d better stand back, I don’t know how big this thing’s going to get.”
There doesn't appear to be any dry venting and the only possible vent shown is on the wall with the kitchen sink. The slope might not be too problematic with flex line as the toilet - the largest dfu - is actually using standard abs in the diagram. I'd still not take the risk on the shower or the kitchen sink with flex line as those are common wdv that end up being plugged and then you are really just down to saving time with the sinks which if you've already run abs for the shower and kitchen sink isn't that much extra work.My under educated 2cents.
May work fine, assuming an inspector lets it pass.
The diagram does remind me of the scene from the Terry Gilliam film Brazil where the renegade plumber (Harry Tuttle played by Robert DeNiro) crossconnects the waste and HVAC lines in an apartment.
Very funny stuff.
Ah Ha!Somebody else remembers the movie "Brazil". Really weird..... the movie that is.Frank DuVal You can never make something foolproof because fools are so ingenious.
I love that movie. I've seen it 3 or 4 times. Makes me want to be a commando carpenter- trim work under the radar of big brother. Especially if I could swing on ropes.zak
"When we build, let us think that we build forever. Let it not be for present delight nor for present use alone." --John Ruskin
"so it goes"
Looks interesting, but I would run it by the building department before I actually tried to use it. Somehow, I suspect that there would be a LOT of resistance! - lol
Typically the way things work here is that when a major
manufacturer like Toto rolls out a new product concept
like this they have *all* their ducks lined up in a row
with the goverment agencies that have jurisdiction.Anyway, this product is for sale to the trade only, so
as an amateur plumber I couldn't get my hands on it. I've
been advised that the whole package is going to be rather
more expensive than it would be to buy off-the-shelf
components, and you are supposed to make that up in time
saved on the site.If this really is a viable concept, it's just another step
in deskilling the plumbing trade, as you really could take
a guy off the street, give him a screwdriver and set him
to work. Screwdriver monkey work.
"If this really is a viable concept, it's just another step
in deskilling the plumbing trade, as you really could take
a guy off the street, give him a screwdriver and set him
to work. Screwdriver monkey work."Good anecdote. And would I be inclined to have a baboon with a screwdriver plumb the biggest investment of my life? No thanks. Please give me a Pro-Plumber to do the design and rough in, I might do the finishing myself... (a baboon can do finishing..., well maybe a careful and conscientious one...)Scott.Always remember those first immortal words that Adam said to Eve, “You’d better stand back, I don’t know how big this thing’s going to get.”
If this really is a viable concept, it's just another stepin deskilling the plumbing trade, as you really could takea guy off the street, give him a screwdriver and set himto work. Screwdriver monkey
Only if the monkey worked for a licensed plumber around here. This state is moving toward big fines for unpermited work done by unlicensed people doing HVAC, plumbing, or electrical work. So much so that if an apprentice is caught working on a job without a journeyman present, the master and the contractor are both going to be fined.
Dave