I have followed with interest the thread titled “Is business THAT good for you guys?” and see some truth to both sides (as is the case in most arguments). I would like some input from the professionals as to what they expect from me (as a HO) when I want an estimate for a job. In a previous life I owned a cabinet shop, and would give free estimates for jobs. Now I am a homeowner who is doing a complete remodel, do most of the work myself but occasionally have need for a professional. I have no desire to waste anyone’s time, including mine, but when I call someone for an estimate it is usually in an area that I have minimal expertise, and would like a professional opinion.
Let’s assume that I have no knowledge of contractors in the area that I am needing help from. I may receive names from friends, or from the yellow pages, or from the board at a lumber yard. How many should I call? If I get three estimates, and each recommend a different solution, is it ok to call others to get a consensus?
What if every recommendation is in contradiction to everything I have read, both here at breaktime and elsewhere? One example has to do with my mother’s house, which I designed and built in Fort Worth, Tx. I now live in Ohio. The house is a superinsulated house with double exterior walls. When we built the house, a heat gain analysis showed a 1 ton AC requirement. Her AC went out this summer(freon leak at the coil) and EVERY AC company she had come out looked at the house, didn’t take ANY measurements and said that the problem was the unit was undersized (it was 2 ton). After 3 supposedly reputable people stated the same thing, I purchased a software package which was recommended at this site to do a heat load analysis, and once again obtained a 1-1 1/2 ton heat gain. How am I supposed to advise her, to just accept what they are saying, or to get further advice?
I personallly believe that both contractors and homeowners have a common interest, that being having a successful job in which both parties are pleased with the results. At the same time, I think that inadequate knowledge ON BOTH SIDES can interfere with obtaining those results. I hope that input from this forum can at least help me better understand both sides of this issue.
Thanks in advance for all input.
Replies
1. Find a reputable a/c shop and tell them to replace the unit with the same size. The efficiency in the current models over the older one that failed should provide plenty of cooling. Tell them thanks for the proposal, but I want the same size. End of discussion.
2. When I meet with a prospect, I like to see that they have thought about their project, whatever it is. I don't like to hear...we want to fix up the house, what should we do? Ideally they have an itemized list, in some kind of priority order, with some kind of drawings...hand drawn not-to-scale sketches are fine, at least they have thought about it that much. I don't mind discussing options, phases, and telling them that if they do A then they have to do B & C, or if they do X then Y won't work. If you feel comnfortable discussing budgets, that helps a lot. "We think we can afford $30k for this" at least tells the contractor if they are being realistic...and on the other hand, the contractor should be honest enough to say "It looks like it could be about $20k at this point".
Do it right, or do it twice.
Personally, I dont mind people getting several estimates as long as price is not their only important consideration and they are realistic about what it will cost to do a job right. In your example I think you should continue to look around for an a/c man who will listen to what you want and do it or explain why it cant be done. There may be other factors you are not considering or they may be stuck in the rut of doing things the way they have always done.
I think that to a certain extent you have to go by your gut feeling about a particular contractor or sub. You obviously have enough expertise and are willing to do your homework on technical issues. And you've built at least one house. So you're not going to be easy prey for a flamboozle artist. Maybe those three HVAC guys at your mother's place are all trying to flamboozle her--or maybe they know something that goes beyond the textbook answer. You have to judge by the people, face to face.
By the same token, I think most contractors and specialty subs do each have their preferred methods of work and materials they like to work with. If you want to order THAT and not THIS, just do it, and find a contractor who'll be happy to do it that way. If you want somebody to take the technical load off your mind and just come in and do a good job, don't bother you with the details, then find somebody whose body language, truck colour, and shirt style make you trust him--and then get out of his way and just supply the money.
I personally don't prefer working for HOs who want to specify materials and methods themselves. I find that it usually becomes a pain in the can because as much as they think they know, it's usually a good bit more than they do know and I'm not getting paid to correct their misconceptions against their own will. That's just a fancy way to get myself in trouble. The squeezer is that if I do it their way and it doesn't work out right, I'll probably be getting the evil eye even though it's not my fault. So I wind up entre deux chaises which is not a comfortable place to sit.
Dinosaur
'Y-a-tu de la justice dans ce maudit monde?
Edited 8/23/2003 12:03:14 AM ET by Dinosaur
Where in Ohio are you located? There are several of us Ohioans on this board, why I've even met a few of them. Some are Browns fans, some are Bengals fans, and (gulp) some are Steelers fans.
How long did the AC work in Moms house before it gave up? If it was satisfactory for a long periond of time, tell them to fix it, or replace with same size!! If it died prematurely, maybe they do know of what they speak.
As a homeowner, you need to be honest about the amount of work, and the budget to accomplish it. Don't let price sway you to much, as you can tell by reading all the rants here, in both directions, COMMUNICATIONS, is the biggest deal of all. If everybody got all the ideas and gave all facts, it would be a smaller forum by a big bunch. So tell em what you want, and then see if you like there way of telling you that it is a bad idea, and how to do it better. As an ex cabinet builder, you probably can match wits with most and do just fine. Any really special stuff, should probably be specd by an engineer anyway. Then you would have prints to follow, and opinions would not be as big a deal. Have fun.
Dan
I live in Oberlin. I'm not much of a football fan, but my wife is a cowboy fan (I keep that quiet around here).
Boy, I wish there was a clear cut answer to your question. I recently needed termite treatment at my home. I got three bids. Two were from national chain pest control companies and one was from a one man company. All three had different methods. The chains sent salesmen/estimators. One could care less if I went with them (must have been on salary). One pressured me so hard, I wrote them off (must have been on commission). The one man show was the most professional of all. He had several options for me (all tailored to my situation where the chains kind of had one size fits all plans). He understood and explained his competition's methods without slamming them. The point of this story is, I knew about two minutes into the conversation with the third guy that he was the one. Price had not been discussed ( he turned out to be the cheapest by far). The gut feeling is not always right, but cannot be ignored.
Talk to three a/c guys. Call the one you feel the best about and question him with the info (good or bad) you've gotten from the other two. I often meet with potential clients several times before getting a contract signed. I often have to change my proposals when the job at hand changes slightly after the potential client meets with other contractors and gains more information. Actually, getting the a/c fixed in the middle of summer might have more urgency than this method would allow, but hopefully my point is made.
This is a great question! I'm a Painting Contractor so I'm of no use telling you how to fix an a/c unit, however we deal with clients who all know SOMETHING about painting. I think everyone has painted something in their lifetime. Not many people have hvac experience or knowledge so I'm guessing that hvac contractors are not used to dealing with a person like you who has some understanding of what they do. This could lead to "salesmen" who might try to take advantage and upsell you higher profit margin systems. I still think that the majority of business people are honest and are simply trying to give you good product and service while making a profit. They might specify a unit with "bigger is better" philosophy. (I certainly found this to be true of garbage disoposals. The longevity of replacement intervals seems to go up exponentially with the size and cost of the machine. Ever smell an old garbage disposal? ugh! Definitely worth the dough!)
When we give "free estimates" we ask questions and listen to the concerns of the potential client. One of my more embarassing moments was shortly after we started our business. We were stripping and refinishing some oak paneling for a customer in a very nice custom home. The paneling was "bookmatched" and 2 sections of plywood had very different grain patterns making those pieces look darker than adjacent sections. I started to explain "The making of plywood" to the customer to explain the color differences. He listened patiently for several minutes. I said: "Watching plywood being made is fascinating" He said: I know, I owned a plywood mill...."
My point, I want to know what the client knows about my job and the materials I have available to work with. Not because I want to know how much I can B.S. him, but what his concerns are. Paint companies make outlandish warranty claims. Warranties are simply marketing ploys. Sherwin Williams makes a product called Super Paint with a 20 year warranty. That's bad enough, they also make one called Duration at over twice the price, that has a "Lifetime" warranty! Whose lifetime? Does anyone really expect a paint job to last 20 years, much less - forever? Is the clients concern waterproofing, colorfastness, sheen retention. Is he planning on selling the house or remodeling in a couple of years. He probably doesn't want to spend more $$$ than he needs to but wants a job that meets his expectations. It makes no sense to put $40 per gallon material on a house that the owner plans to re-side in 4 years.
You want the same thing, you want an adequate system but don't want to put a 427 cu. in. hemi engine in your golf cart. (More than adequate but probably a little more than you need - unless you're really thirsty after the 18th hole!)
Let the contractors know that you have checked the engineering requirements for your existing system and that you were satisfied with the performance. They will be more likely to give you what you already know you want and their bids are more likely to be apples to apples. This gives you a better basis for judging a competitive bid. However, if a client tells me what paint product to use, and I am not familiar with it or have experienced less than satisfactoy results, I tell them that. I give my professional recommendation. If they still want their product they must assume responsibility for the performance as long as I follow manufacturers specs for application. I guarantee my workmanship but not material performance. I'm guessing hvac people have their preferred systems too. Carrier, Lennox etc. People always ask us: "What is the best paint?" Truth is, I haven't used them all. Over the years we have preferences for certain types of conditions, but there are always variables that can't always be anticipated or explained causing different perfomance. Heck, if you want to see this personal peference dynamic in all of it's emotional intensity, ask the tradesman what the best brand of truck is!
Thanks for all the great replies! I may be mistaken, but it seems to me that different contractors have different expectations of homeowners, just like different homeowners have different expectations of contractors. I guess the lesson is just to treat everyone the way you would want to be treated in the same situation, and realize that there may be misunderstandings that can't be helped. And that not every contractor is right for every homeowner.
On a complete side note....
Great little town! We used to visit each year for the Scottish Games...my wife worked for British Airways and would present the gift tickets....
stayed at a real nice hotel near the college.....Oberlin Inn, maybe?
Got to stay up and close the bar one time drinking and teling lies with Alex Bealton(sp?) ..the guy that sings the Drunken Scotsman song...
"Lad I don't know where ya been but I see ya won first prize"....
Nice people all thru that town.
Said to the wife last year I missed going and we have to make it back...even if it'll be on our own dime this time.
Your Highlander Games are the second biggest in the country ....second only to Detroit.....if I remember right.
JeffBuck Construction Pittsburgh,PA
Fine Carpentery.....While U Waite
Just a comment on you example. A freon leak at the coil should not destroy a central a/c unit. Low suction safeties should shut the unit down before it burns out the compressor motor. Compressor failure can be brought on by recharging a leaky unit several time and not replacing the oil that is blown out as the freon leaks out agian. If you mothers unit was recharged several times, this is may be what brought on the failure. Don't use the contractor that did the repair work to replace the unit! he screwed the pooch once and will most likely do it agian.
Dave
I am haing a little bit of a hard time answering this because it covers two diff subjects, kind of like when you docs are presented with a symptom of pain in the arse or whatever but the real problem is the patient's father in law or some other pyschosomatic cause.
One Q is the airconditioner subject while the other is the ho vs contractor issue. I hate to see it phrased that way in the same way that you would hate to see a discussion of "Child patients vs. pediatricians" because it implies an antagonistic relationship that benefits neither. That is probably a leftover from that other thread.
I think the answer is in defining the relationship. I work from a relationship attitude with my cistomers. There are other contractors who work from a business attitude and customers who are looking for a dollars and cents bottom line rather than a satisfaction and sense bottom line.
With a relationship attitude, I begin by trying to understand the client and what satisfys them, what the goal is, and defining that first, then mapping out a way to achieve that goal before the design and estimation process begins.
That means that the AC thing should include a discussion of lifestyles. I have a customer with an AC who cals every summer to say that it isn't working right but every time, when I go to look at things, all the windows are open. They like to sleep with open windows and then don't close them in AM when the heat starts going up. That meant that the best answer was to turn off the AC and install awnings over windows to keep heat of sun from warming the interior. So has anything else changed with your mother's life and health lately? In other words, is she geting forgetfull and leaving the door or window opoen, causing the unit to work harder? it's just one angle buit one worth considering.
I would tactfully visit with each estimator and ask how they arrived at their conclusions and whether they considered the extra insulation. But keep in mind that they could be right and you wrong so don't take an argumentive standpoint. Just act curious, wanting full understanding.
There are tons of cases of houses that are well insulated with identical houses next door to one another performing much differently, either due to lifestyle or to a minor flaw in completion of work. It camn be something as simple as a clogged or collapsed duct line or leaving the attic access open forgetfully. Something may have happened with yoiur well designed house to chanmge the heating and cooling profile. These estimators may just be trying to upsell you but they could be taking the failure of the current unit as evidence that it was under-designed for the actual load. Remember the software designs for ideal situations and may not allow for actual conditions or operator error. This is similar to software that does calculations for flooring and roofing joists/rafters. Poor quality lumber will change the actual performance.
Let's suppose that your VB has allowed soime moisture into the wall and that accumulation has reduced the peak efficiency of the insulation package which would in turn increase the loads required for the AC.
So I like to visit with a client and pull out information instaed of doing a quick numbers only calc and estimate. That leads to greater odds of sucess in reaching the goal of having a comfortable house, and leaves the client feeling like I care - which I do.
From your standpoint, a visit gives you an instinct or gut feeling for which of these persons is more likely to satisfy you.
Excellence is its own reward!
Piffen thats so true, all to often I encounter situations that defy known logic . Like a room that we can't keep cool.I filled the attic with insulation improved the duct work added extra duct and still not much improvement it wasn't until I did extensive remodeling that I found chipmunk nests in certain walls and all the insulation removed from others to make the nests.
ANDYSZ2 I MAY DISAGREE WITH WHAT YOUR SAYING BUT I WILL DEFEND TO THE DEATH YOUR RIGHT TO SAY IT.
Thanks to everyone who took the time to answer. After reading all the responses, however, I realized that I was not really clear about what I was looking for. I think (no, I know) that I'm able to communicate with kids better than adults, which is one of the reasons why I have the job that I do.
The issue with the AC was just used as an example of the dilemma that HO's face when dealing with contractors. Piffin was right when he said that the title of this thread implied an adversarial relationship. I put it in those terms because to read many of the postings on this site it often is. The pros often complain that homeowners waste their time by requesting too many estimates, or not knowing what they want done, or not having a clue how much things cost, etc. Some of the posters feel that the HO should feel honored that they are getting a free estimate.
ON THE OTHER HAND, HOs complain that the contractor doesn't listen, or doesn't respect their time, or doesn't feel honored that they are being considered for the job.
What I was trying to get from the pros are general recommendations about what they expect (or would like) when they call for an estimate. I read the thread about "your best customers", but what I am looking for is the basics, not "to be greeted with coffee and a danish". How many estimates do you consider acceptable? Under what circumstances should that number be exceeded. Do you expect the HO to hire you on the spot, or is it reasonable to think it over?
As I said in my original post, I don't often hire contractors, and when I do I agonize over these questions, especially considering some of the response on this board. I DON'T think that the relationship should be antagonistic, and think that a lot of us could use some guidelines as to acceptable practices. Remember, we don't do this for a living and are bound to make mistakes.
PS: As far as the AC, when I have time I will post a different thread and be more specific when I have a chance.
This thread was a great example of the communications skills of a lot of contractors.
SamT
Now that you have been more clear, I can be more concise.
When you call to invite me to your home regarding work top be considered, I want to know three things
A> What is the goal
B> What is the budget
C> Are you serious
A > I will want to hear your ideas and know how you react to mine as we go along but I don't want to be told how to do __ anymore than you would want a patient to walk right in and tell you what medicine they want you to prescribe. You will tell me a few things regarding your goals but if you are like most people, you will not have clearly defined it yet. I will listen and ask Qs and then summarize back to you for clarification, "So, your real goal here is to______"
You will either correct me or add to what I said or a light will go on in your eyes, telling me that you just realized it yourself, and that you now think I'm a mind reader/miracle worker and I have a pretty good idea that I will be the one doing the work.
If there are two of you (spouse, companion, partner, motherinlaw, alter-ego or whatever) I want to be meeting with both of you for major jobs. One reason is that both of you may not be agreed yet on the goals. or you may both be thinking that you want a new kitchen, for instance, but one of you is looking for a more efficient layout and functionality while the other is looking for a little WOW! fator to impress visitors. I need to get to that GOAL to know how to satisfy you. Then we can work together on how to get there.
B > I know this is considered privledged information by most folks and they all like to play their hands close the the vest, but I NEED to know before we can go very far together. I can design kitchens from seven grand up to seventy grand and we don't want to waste one anothers time dsigning something you cannot afford. This involves a little bit of trust. You might be thinking that I will try to sell you a fifty dollar job for seventy dollars if your budget is up to $75 so you tell me that you could spend as much as $55 when you really can afford $90. you just handicapped me, because I will do my best to stay withing the 55. I can't serve you as well as possible and the long range satisfaction may be gone already, though it will take a few years before it sinks in. I hope that you have done your homework before calling me aand that you know that I am an honest and quality builder. I base much of my work and sales on my reputation.
C > I will get clues whether you are a tire-kicker or really want to do the work, but you can help by telling me what window of opportunity you have for completeion. " We want this room done before the baby is born" or "Do you suppose that you can get this roof done before the snow flies?"
"We are entertaining thirty people next month and want a new kitchen by then" is not a good way to indicate that you are serious.
;)
Not with me anyway - Been there, done that!.
Excellence is its own reward!
Let's use a bathroom remodel as an example...
Wrong way: We want to remodel the bathroom...what do you suggest?
Better way: We want to remodel the bathroom. New tub, new toilet, new sink and cabinets, new wallpaper, new light fixture over the sink, everything will stay where it is...can you add a glass block window in that wall...etc.
Or: We want to remodel the bathroom and make it open into the bedroom instead of the hall...can that be done?
The first request is way too vague...looks like you haven't thought about it for more than 5 minutes. The third request is a little vague, but at least you have a goal, and the contractor can tell you if it is practical. Think of it in terms of your business...if a 'customer' came to your office asking for your services, how much info would you want?
Do it right, or do it twice.
"Wrong way: We want to remodel the bathroom...what do you suggest?"
I would have to disagree.
It's not necessary to have your job handed to you on a plate. As the done it before many different ways professional you should be able to communicate with a client in such a way to draw out what they want or need in a bath remodel and show them the ways they have not thought about.
This is where you weed out the tire kickers or develop a beneficial design/build relationship.
I'm not saying you have to move in for an overnighter but by the time you hang up the phone when scheduling that first meeting they should know that you will have some searching, fact-finding questions that will need an answer in order to present that first estimate. I'm usually able to present a written synopsis on most jobs at the second meeting and have a contract with the big words and other boilerplate ready for signing.
If the project is going to take a lot of handholding and design work to get to that synopsis presentation then the customer knows up front that the clock is ticking and will have agreed to whatever design/engineering fees are needed. They are forewarned that if I'm providing the extended service I expect the compensation.
You've got a good point Ralph. My thought was that, if they give such a broad vague description, they have had a thought about remodeling the bath but have absolutely no clue what's involved or what they really want. You're right that the contractor can be a valuable resource for suggesstions and ideas, but then you become part of the design team, and are you going to get paid for that?
Thought about this in the shower...the absolute wrong way to talk with a contractor...."We want to remodel the bathroom. Saw some pictures in Southern Living. Here's the plans we drew on the $9.95 program we bought at Walmart. We already bought all the material and fixtures from Home Depot, it's stored in the garage. How much would you charge to install it? And we're having a party next weekend...can you be done by then?
Do it right, or do it twice.
I think the very best thing you could do is a get a referall----from a friend,relative,co-worker or even just a lumberyard or supplier.----THEN
when you call me simply say" hi---my name is john johnson. I need ( fill in the blank here)---, I got your name from my friend Mark Smith---he was really happy with the ( whatever project) that you did for him 2 years ago and says YOU are the guy to call.
bingo---you just went to the top of my" important people to see "list. I am going to bend over backwards for you because of the following 3 reasons.
1) you said " I need", not "I am considering" or " I am thinking about"---you demonstrated a need and therefore are an actuall prospective customer---not just some dreamer wasteing my time.2)I feel a responsibility to my previous customer Mark Smith---I don't want to let him down. If he was good enough to give my name out---I want to make HIM look good as well
3)Mark Smith,on some level has already assured you that I am well qualified to handle your project. you are 80% sold already. We can get quickly to the specifics of your project since you have already been pre-sold on my ability.
You are an A+ prospect.
Compare that to someone who calls and says" I am thinking about ,someday, doing ( blah,blah,blah) and I wonder what something like that would run? I got your name outta the yellow pages and I am calling around for prices. do you give free estimates?