I am trying to develop some specifications for composite decks for my Homes Association. Not looking to specify construction techniques, but rather materials. The goal is to provide non-subjective specifications that will result in the use of materials that are of high quality and most closely resemble wood.
I am somewhat familiar with Trex, and I perceive wood fiber composites (as opposed to 100% “plastic”) to be the closest to real wood in appearance. That’s not to say that plastics are bad, but one of the explicit objectives is to specify materials that look like wood, (in addition to being of high quality).
The specifications that I am considering are: Composites must be made of at least 40% wood fiber, and accept stain or paint (note that staining or painting is not a requirement, only that the material is capable of accepting stain or paint).
What do you guys think? Are there any other specs that I ought to include to ensure quality? Am I off the mark in thinking that the wood composites more closely resemble real wood and provide good quality results?
Thanks!
Replies
Freestate,
Don't take this wrong, but if a Homes Association is the same as an HOA, or Homeowners Association, I don't think they should be able to specify a certain composite material period. My reasoning is that if these people own the house, and the land it sits on, why should they be forced to use a specific brand, or type of composite decking. Hell, redwood makes a beautiful deck, but needs maintained. And why should the HOA care if it is stainable or paintable, that should be up to the HO. The woodgrain shouldn't make a difference either, unless the neighbors can fly, then they would see the "sore thumb" from the air, otherwise they only people seeing the decking would be the owners, or their guests.
I understand the need to stop sheds and porch covers constructed from used OSB and corrugated tin from popping up around the neighborhood, but no matter what decking material they use, the final product can look worse that a properly constructed redwood deck. Nor do I think using a different composite than the rest of the neighborhood is going to drag everybody's property values into the abyss.
(I am not a huge fan of HOA's by the way)
If this is not about an HOA, please disregard my rant.
Cole
Cole Dean
Dean Contracting
"(I am not a huge fan of HOA's by the way)" Gee, I never would have guessed. Just joshin' with you. ;-)
Danno,
Honestly, around here ( Fort Collins Colorado) they are the worst. Properly administered, I suppose they may serve some purpose, but that is rarely the case. The problem lies with the fact that unless they address and enforce EVERY violation, no one can be expected to comply. Another word I don't like in my closing documets: Comply, Conform etc. Plus every association I've lived in had one or two board members who thought being on the board gave them a 00 license to kill, on top of the badmouthing they did of every neighbor that didn't plant the right or expensive enough trees, or " garages are where you are supposed to park you're vehicles, not the driveway". BS, garages are where you work on you're vehicles, and store all of the crap that doesn't fit in you're basement or attic. I don't like 62' RV's parked in the street and agree that is what storage yards are for, but my pickup can be parked on the concrete drive that the builder charged $5 a square foot for all damn day.
Now I live on a fairly well manicured acre with no grass yet, and a REDWOOD deck ( I really like redwood ) next door to a guy with 10 horses, at least 40 cats who I think I feed regularly judging by the cat food evaporation rate in my shop. and even though the horse manure attracts flies (alot), it is his place and I have no place saying anything about it, plus he is a hell of a nice guy.
More Ranting. I'm all done now.
ColeCole Dean
Dean Contracting
I'm aware of the problems you talk about. In Midland, a big problem is the Historic District Commission. Again, it's a couple people who are control freaks and go overboard. Some people go nuts when they get a little power--makes you understand why some "world leaders" are the way they are. Just imagine if one of those Bozos from a HOA or HDC were running, say, Iraq. Oh.... (& I know what comes next, but I like George Bush).
Now would you like to tell us how you REALLY feel?
I cannot tell you how I feel about HOA's - Taunton would bar me for life. HOA's are the biggest, most dictatorial abomination ever invented. That's why we live on 24 acres of woods in the middle of nowhere.
I am tempted to send this to Neal Boortz - nah, the original poster could not handle the explosion of his Libertarian mind.
What I do with MY house is MY business till it starts affecting the lives and finances of others. I got so pithed at my old nitpicking HOA that I was tempted to sell my house for a dollar out of spite to screw them all by destroying the value of their homes for a couple months. Not only was my HOA a royal pain in the hemmorhoids, just about every owner was an abominable prig w/ an ego big as an 8 cylinder in line Buick. One night right after dark, I saw some guy wandering about in the bushes across the street. Called the neighbor and told him. He was a real anal vent about it - told me in no certain terms that it was him, talking on a cordless phone and I should keep my nose out of his business. Ah, so much for neighborhood watch!
DonThe GlassMasterworks - If it scratches, I etch it!
Don,
Lets not forget about those all important DUES that keep that well oiled machine running so efficiently. Without that "meager" revenue, the president couldn't afford to contract his BIL to mow 100sf of greenbelt twice a month for $10,000 a year.
Cole
Cole Dean
Dean Contracting
I didn't know that cynicism ran so deep! And then there's the HOA that wants to put lights on their two tennis courts to satisfy the 25 tennis players in a 75 house SD. Not only is there the capital cost, there's the cost of electricity & maintenance that drives up the HOA dues for everyone.
DonThe GlassMasterworks - If it scratches, I etch it!
More Ranting. I'm all done now.
No, no, ranting is good for the soul. Besides, this is BT, and we're all about ranting :)
If you need something to rant about, the HOAs realized they had no "teeth" against someone who might actually be stubborn about their property rights. So they created a new monster, the HOA gets a 1% (or so) of every house in the division--that way, the structure can never ever actually be 100% yours. The "enforcement" method against scaliwags who want to paint the inside of their garages blue, or own a trailer that is 6" too long to close the garage door over, or, heven forfend, leave their trashcans on the curb 30 minutes too long: Foreclosure.
Oh yes, the language and bylaws are all full of procedure and appeals and rights--but these are mere formalities for the would-be mussolinis out there.
And if the court docket ever clears up, we'll see if an HOA can act in violation of both Trade Law and violation of Mechanic's Lien Law in Texas (they keep ducking court appearances, as they are reasonably sure they don't want to eith pay damages, or spend time "on hte farm" . . . )Occupational hazard of my occupation not being around (sorry Bubba)
My reasoning is that if these people own the house, and the land it sits on, why should they be forced to use a specific brand, or type of composite decking.
Ahh, but the point to remember is that, if the house and lot are in a location governed by an HOA, then the owner does not "own" the property free and clear, i.e., they do not have "clear title" to the property.
These "clouds" on the title, in the form of rights by the HOA to govern certain aspects of how the property is used, will at the very least show up in the title search, and the buyer will be made aware that what he is buying is a "incomplete" ownership of a piece of real property.
I'm not a big fan of HOA's, either, but if you "own" property in one of these subdivisions, you certainly can't say that you weren't made aware that the HOA has some control over your life before you bought the place. And I guess some people like giving up some freedoms in exchange for the comfort that their neighbors won't have cars up on blocks on the front lawn, or (shudder) some uawful-looking plastic deck out back. It's their choice.
Edited 8/21/2004 2:48 pm ET by BarryO
BarryO
Agreed, and I'm sure in most cases HO's are aware before purchase. The last sub. I lived in was still in the hands of the developer when I bought, and it wasn't turned over to the HOA until later. There was no board yet, and when it was turned over, they self appointed themselves the rulers of the land. Wrote and changed guidelines, and sent letter upon letter, mind you two years after I moved in. It was just a case of the developer not having his ducks in a row beforehand. Parks, open space, community playground etc. were all part of the master plan, and these were used as sales tools in the marketing of these homes. None of this happened, and it created quite a bitter dissention among some neighbors. Anyone who violated a ordinance and was sent a letter more or less said they would be happy to comply once all of the promises the developer made were kept. Not good. Then you have the watchdogs, who in all honesty are just trying to maintain a nice community, but sometimes they take the title a little too seriously and become militant about it.
Doesn't matter to me now, but I still don't think an HOA should have the power to specify the amount of recycled wood content in your decking. All of the composites I have seen appeal to me, some more than most, but all are fine.
ColeCole Dean
Dean Contracting
When you have time, please email me about your original post.
[email protected]
I'm pretty much in agreement with Coledean.
I understand that you don't want to see grasshuts hanging off the back of the homes in the 'hood, but you could shoot yourself in the foot if you don't word it carefully.
I'd rather see a two year old Weatherbest deck with Azek trim behind my house (neither product can be stained) anyday rather than looking at a two year old PT heap.
Gotta agree too.
The homeowner bought and paid for the home... it is up to them to decide what is best for them.
I have seen decks made of trex that are an abomination. I have seen decks built of PVC-like materials (can't be stained) that are beautiful. And as was stated, a PT deck can be much more ugly than any of the above.
If the concern is aesthetics, I would suggest an open communication between the homeowners and a mutual respect developed. That will go MUCH farther than any type of pseudo building standard that has nothing to do with standards.
What happens if next month some company comes out with a composite that has only 35% wood fiber and this product is structural and looks 5 times better then any of the other composites with 40% wood fiber in it?
I'm in agreement with the others that Homeowners Associations should mind their own business. We have enough interference in our lives by all levels of government, and to add another level of obnoxious nosiness is offensive. You aren't happy with the taxes you pay and the ordinances and codes you must abide by? You need to pay more "taxes" and accept more regulation to be happy with your life?
That sounds harsh. But, to try to be reasonable, if you must regulate your neighbors, any of the synthetic deck materials will look and weather well. You have to ask, what are you trying to prevent? I would make the regulations as broad as possible, such as permitting any synthetic material for the deck surface. Prohibit pressure treated wood and softwood framing lumber only, if you must. The prohibition should only apply to the deck surface; there aren't any structural synthetics, so the framing must still be made of pressure treated wood. Railings could go either way.
Bah, HOA. Talk about a bunch of facists. I dunno whats worse, the people who move into HOA tracts or the people that run them.
Any how, Since composite materials are new and many new forth coming techniques and science will dictate the evolution of the materials it will be hard to set a standard. So you might as well crawl out of the bushes with your digital camera and stop talking picts of bob's deck he wants to put in HIS house on HIS land that he PAYS taxes on and go to your own house and worry about taking care of YOUR house so YOU can pay taxes on it and enjoy it before your anal retentive heart has a massive heart attack when jack down the street leaves his car out of the garage for ONE night.
(that last one as a great run on sentance huh)
Edited 8/20/2004 11:22 pm ET by WmP
Waiting to see if Freestate chimes back in. . . .
This could turn into a HOA horror story party:
Friend's Dad moved his lawn furniture and picnic table from the back yard patio to the front because of some work he was doing out back. It was going to sit there for one (maybe two) days. That day, there was a letter in his mailbox quoting the HOA bylaws "lawn furniture may not be placed in front lawns, no ornamentation is allowed in hte front lawn, etc etc," (some people should be forced to take up a hobby . . .)
He went to the local home center and bought every pink flamingo they had. Once he'd set up his new front lawn "display" he left it there for a week.
Jim: I had more than one problem w/ my HOA. Every house in the SD had a tree stump burial pit in their front yard. You know what happened after about 8yrs? Yeh! They started sinking. But of all the sink holes, mine was ugliest. Started the day after we bought the house. At the end next to the drive way it got deep enough that ground level was just below my knees when I stood at the lowest point. Rate of subsidation was so fast that you could see it increase on a monthly basis. Impractical as all getout to keep filling, raking and keeping grass on it. Naturally we got a nasty letter from the HOA. Finally got inspired - filled it up level w/ topsoil from a horse pasture being converted to a SD. Took a truckload to fill & level entire area. Planted a butterfly garden in it. At least I wouldn't have to keep filling and leveling, and lack of grass wouldn't be a problem.
Now, why do I tell you all this??? A friend told me I should have gotten an old porcelein toilet, planted it full of flowers & stuck it in the middle of the hole & thumbed my nose at the HOA. Before filling it in. Man, what a story that would have made. Beats pink flamingos!
HOA also female dogged about a rusty electric meter box. You are right - somebody needed a hobby to keep them off the streets. They definately didn't need a dog to walk!
Bottom line - if you move into a place like that, you either become a slave to the house or you have to be able to afford a lawn care service. About 90% of them were slaves to the house.Not my idea of how to live!
Don
DonThe GlassMasterworks - If it scratches, I etch it!
Not to continue badmouthing HOA's, but they aren't just minor annoyances; you thumb your nose at them (by doing some of the cute things suggested--flamingos and such) and they have the legal recourse to bite your nose and your thumb right off!
my brother lived in a condo place that decided to make their newly formed asociation the new law of the land ... you know the drill ... every thing's gotta look the same ...
so he takes my 6 year old neice to HD one Sat to do the kid's build a birdhouse deal ...
she builds ... paints ... things just big enough to shove one small bird into it ...
they gte home ... she wants it hung on their little entry porch ...
he hangs is ...
The following Monday he gets a threatening letter in the mail .. take it down or we'll burn you out ... or words to that effect ...
He takes it down .. she comes home from school .. asks where her bird house is ..
Like any good father ... he puts it back up .. to hell with them.
Get's a phone call ... arranges a meeting with the Prez of the board ...
Takes my cute as a button neice in ...
Says ... OK .. U tell her why you think her birdhouse is ugly and why U have to come over and take it down ... as I'm not going to do either ...
They walk out of the meting .... special permission to leave the birdhouse!
Sometimes the law makers have to face their citizens .... and big sad blue eyes ...
JeffBuck Construction, llc Pittsburgh,PA
Artistry in Carpentry
Ok I just have to chime in.....
I personally do not think that a HOA should govern materials based on quality as much as overall appearance. The goal of most HOAs is to make sure things LOOK GOOD and the community is a Nice Place to live / visit.......... The key here is "is it in harmony with the existing home and the community" (Major legal term in HOA lingo)Problem here is that 10 people will have 10 differing opinions. If a person wants to use a lower quality material that may need more regular maintenance, that is their choice. But now this is where the HOA comes into play to make sure it stays looking nice.
My wife and I moved into a "Planned Family Community" 2 years ago because it has By-Laws and Covenants that we thought would protect our "Quiet Enjoyment" as well as the "Value" of our home. Well as someone else said, those By-Laws and Covenants are only as good as the HOA Board Members enforcing them.
I immediately joined the ARC (Architecture Review Committee) when we moved in. First thing I found was that 80% of the people in a community do not submit the required applications and after that, most do not know or care about the Covenants. This was my first indication that what I had hopped for had a major flaw. If anyone does something that is not approved or out of specs from an application, it is now up to the Board to enforce the rules not the ARC in our community.
Well after getting fed up feeling like the ARC was an after thought, I got on the Board to try and "make a difference". After 1 1/2 years of pissed of neighbors and more than one threat of physical violence, I called it quits. When you have a Board of 5 and only 2 that care, it is a lost cause. Not to mention homeowners that do not care about how what they do impacts others. Before this home, lived in a community with no rules and we had cars on blocks, yards that NEVER got mowed, junk piles, rotting wood, and other things that made hard to re-sell. At least with an HOA, you can go after a true rats nest if it gets bad enough.
I think that Covenants and By-Laws are a good thing to keep a community from going into disrepair, but we do not live in a perfect world and some people just do not care if what they do impacts their neighbors. In a perfect world, if all of the rules were always enforced Covenants and By-Laws would keep a community beautiful for a long long time, but as is the case with many rules, people have their own interpretation at times.
My hat is off to any HOA that can run a tight ship and not have ticked off and homeowners up in arms all the time. Being on an HOA Board can be a thankless job!
It is also very very hard to have an HOA in a community that has housing vales that fall into a wide price range. Someone living in a $130k home may have different financial priorities than someone in a $280k home.
In our community we have 2 main groups of people in the lower price point homes. Those just getting by, and those just starting out and saving as they keep an eye on move up and out because so many lower priced homes seem to lack being well maintained. In almost ever case where a home was looking bad at the lower price point, the family was struggling to make ends meet. Not bad people, they just did not have the extra money to spend in the yard etc. I sat across from more than one family that just did not have the money to re-seed a dead weed infested yard etc. It is a fine line between trying to protect others property value and understanding the financial hardships that people may be facing.
If all works out in life, our next home will be on at least 3-5 acres. Not so that we can do what we want when we want, but so that the actions and tastes of others do not impact us while I or around our home.
CW
Jeff, What a great story !!!!
Your Bro sounds like my kind of people!
"Walk softly and carry a ... small blue eyed child?"Buck Construction, llc Pittsburgh,PA
Artistry in Carpentry
Well my friend, have you ever felt as though you're the only narcotics officer at a biker rally?
I'm sorry you asked a legitimate well meaning question and opened up a forum for bashing HOA s. I happen to have mixed feelings for them myself. First of all I think they are a necessary evil. I certainly don't want my $350,000 house sitting next to some piece of cr*p with vinyl siding, a bright silver steel roof and a nasty little aluminum shed sitting inside a yard fenced with wire farm fencing and six inch posts. On the other hand, many of these posters have valid points about the people in charge of these organizations getting way too anal and pretty much ruining any home improvement experience for anyone else in the neighborhood. it's a grey area for sure.
Now on to your question...
Kudos to you for wanting to keep the quality of your neighborhood up by insisting on superior decking products! I'm about to make some enemies here but here goes: Cedar and redwood both suck as a decking material. they both rot, fast, regardless of how much or often you treat them. And don't tell me about your own deck that's been there for 30 years and still going strong. That's old growth wood and it doesn't exist anymore. The new stuff they are selling is soft and yummy and the bugs love it. Treated wood is ugly and eventually warps, splits and winds up giving you splinters if you dare to venture out onto the deck barefoot. Not to mention the reports (unsubstantiated, officially) of people getting "burns" from handling this new treated stuff. Imagine how sensitive a baby's skin is compared to your's as he's out there crawling around on the deck. Composites are (IMO) the only way to go. I'm afraid I really don't have enough of a broad knowledge base regarding the percentage of wood etc. in any of the major brands to give a legitimate opinion on the 40% thing, but I think you are on the right track. What about handrail materials? are you specifying anything there? Right now, unless you want to spend major bucks on iron, the only non-wood alternative is vinyl, and I think it's still in it's infancy with regards to what's available. I certainly haven't seen a brand or product that I've liked, both from an installer's viewpoint as well as with regard to asthetics.
Sorry I wasn't more helpful, good luck.
Whether Cedar or Redwood are suitable decking materials is not the issue. Having some watchdog tell you that you can't spend 2k on a bunch or RW or cedar for a deck on my house that I paid for, am paying the taxes on, maintaining etc. is the issue. As far as wood goes for exterior decking, other than Ipe, they are the only readily available choices around here.
Architects write specifications for projects for owners that want to ensure quality materials and workmanship in the work they are paying for. HOA's shouldn't have the same liberties.
I agree fully with the need to keep property values reasonable, but a RW or Cedar deck sure isn't going to affect them. I'm also in full agreement about treated lumber, which I couldn't really disagree with the exclusion of that as a suitable material for decking due to the properties of the treatment. Although it is still the best choice for deck framing, and my 18 mo. old kid wont be crawling around under there anyway.
ColeCole Dean
Dean Contracting
To "Freestate_1". I guess that you are not as your handle states, a freestate. I would think that you are going a bit too far in specs for deck materials, if the deck is wood do you spec that it has to be harvested from more than 250 miles from the development? This would help to insure that the local trees would remain. Once again, IMHO you are going to far.
I'm not sure if I agree with the 40% wood ...
I say 45% ...
or maybe 35% ...
OK .. how about we both agree we have no idea what we're talking about here and that we both just pulled our percentaged out of our a$$?
what a joke ...
Like the other ... good concept on paper ... too bad the people making up these joke laws don't actually have a clue as to what they are regulating.
Why does it have to take paint or stain?
Hey .. what's the difference between paint and stain?
How about solid color stain ... where's that fit in?
What's wrong with the white aztec someone else mentioned ...
What ya got against a nice white board that'll never dull or flake?
Oh yeah ... which trex doesn't loom like wood?
and which colors?
The textured stuff? or the flat.
Why doesn't the grey trex look like wood with a grey stain??
I have lotsa questions .....
none of them matter though ... I'd never live in a place with HO Association where some accoutant by day tells me which building products I can use on my own house ... I'll just go away now ....
Jeff
Buck Construction, llc Pittsburgh,PA
Artistry in Carpentry
>I'd never live in a place with HO Association where some accoutant by day tells me which building products I can use on my own house
When I moved here and started building, they established an Architectural Committee intentionally stacked against me. They picked the third guy for the committee--a businessman--be/c "he's moved around a lot and lived in a bunch of houses". Too funny. They shoulda picked a lawyer, be/c they established the committee 6 months after I was in ground, and then tried to apply the committee to me retroactively. Don't think it works that way...
Cloud,
When we went b/4 the hysterical committee with the elevations for the house, all I could think of is that they just want to make sure someone doesn't build a geodesic dome.............or concrete dome for that matter. I live in an area with anything from company shacks through victorians and on up to 60's brick ranches. But no domes, period. And at 500 ft back, you can't even see itRemodeling Contractor just outside the Glass City.
Quittin' Time
I feel like a persecuted group! I wonder if there's federal protection for such a disadvantaged group. Maybe my neighbor's actions against me can qualify as a hate crime. Maybe we can get quotas for domes...a certain number must be built in each community to qualify for fed aid! Coooooool!
Actually, it's one reason I don't use that term anymore. Not with appraisers, or insurance people, or real estaters, or permitting people. Only say "insulated thin shell concrete". A very insightful appraiser of one of my designs just beat me to the punch by saying, "I won't list it as a dome, be/c it's not one. It just has a more modern adobe look." Good for her!
To the original question, to my knowledge, composite decking has not been around long enough to say what is bad and what is good. Trex, as far as I know has the most history, about 12 years, and I think it's a great product, but even then, I've seen Trex decks in the "natural" color that looked kinda dingy. That particular one is about 10 years old. I do recommend and install the product for customers though and have built with 2 other brands - which seemed OK to me.
I think there are people here who abhor vinyl railings because of they may have a tendency to sag, and I, for one, feel they are most always flimsy - well, even that's out the window now because I saw some Fairway (brand name) vinyl railings at the building supply the other day that have extruded aluminum in the top and bottom rails...
As far as what looks like wood, and what doesn't, I think it's somewhat personal preference, and if all the builder types here don't seem to have a good handle on what is and is not quality in the way of composites, I just can't see some Home Association setting standards...
With respect to staining and, especially painting a composite product, that is the whole reason for buying composite - so you will not have to paint or stain, and that is also why it comes in different colors...
One of the last posters reminded me of these: why not write "performance specifications" where instead of saying what materials are required, you say what they shall achieve, e.g., "deck material shall be pleasing to the eye and shall show minimal signs of wear or weathering after x# of years. Decks shall be free of splinters and shall show no signs of fading. If such materials are not used, the Homeowner shall be responsable for maintaining the deck to meet these requirements." Something like that. Then you are always ahead of the curve, if new and better products come out, they can be used because they fit your requirements of specified performance even better.
In the best case, people will maintain their place properly. In the worst case, the "standards" become a way for one set of neighbors to try to intimidate another neighbor. We're on a mountain where people don't exactly have lawns. One guy got passionate in one meeting about forcing people to keep the grass cut by the road to a specified depth and height, etc. Wanted to hire a company to do it if it didn't meet his standards, and then put a lien on the house. Seemed suspicious. A week after the meeting, his house went on the market. Ah ha! He knew that all along and was just a self-serving idiot.
Vague standards like "show minimal wear" are just more reasons for one person to control another. "No fading"? Everything fades in the sun, including composite decking and stamped concrete.
I guess the first thing a HOA has to decide is what they wanna accomplish, and how authoritarian they wanna be. Anything goal beyond making sure the place isn't a pigsty and that houses don't fall into disrepair really ups the authoritarian level and makes it a less hospitable place to live, be/c it gives a neighbor yet one more reason to stick it to another neighbor.
I like the idea of performance specifications. The problem - or a problem - is that they often seem to be custom designed for arbitrary and capricious enforcement. The inspection committee looks at a deck belonging to the HOA president's butt boy and says, "Yep, looks pleasing to my eye." Then a month later, they look at an identical deck belonging to a guy who has made himself odious to all the neighbors and decide his is not pleasing to the eye, and the guy has no grounds for appeal.
If the standard isn't quantifiable, it's not really impartial and objective, it's just pretending to be.
What you say about performance specs being subjective is true, and I thought of that when I wrote my reply. Hard to make a statement about "appearance" that is objective though. I suppose with fading you could define a certain percentage of the original color or some such thing. Gets crazy. On another subject in here, someone was talking about the crazy laws in Cal. to force paople to save energy and such. Again, the idea is admirable, the execution is the problem.
With Trex, fading is part of the finished product, although, the color is supposed to stabilize after a finite period of time - don't remember but I'm thinking 6mo to 1yr, which would obviously depend on weather conditions. Some colors don't fade much - some fade a lot. Matt
> is that they often seem to be custom designed for arbitrary and capricious enforcement.
Exactly. And that's a certain setup for future conflict.
Imagine my delight when I log'ed in this mornig and saw that there were 34 "responses" to my question. I could hardly wait to see what useful advice my virtual friends on Breaktime had for me. Imagine my disappointment to find that there were only a few that actually attempted to answer the question put forth. To those few, my thanks. You are the folks that make Breaktime such a useful resource.
To those who weighed-in just so you could unload on HOA's, well, you're providing no service here. If you want to bash HOA's, then start another thread. It's certainly a lively topic and will no doubt be an interesting read. But, hijacking a thread is bad form.
Ya know, there's a big difference between telling you in numerous ways that something's a bad idea, and being of "no service". It appears that in the opinion of many here, myself included, that setting HOA standards for composite decking is a bad idea from the get-go. Sorry if that's a disappointing answer.
Isn't hijacking a little harsh? Don't you think a more PC stance such as "borrowing a thread" would make every one feel better? Most of the comments aimed at the HOA's are giving you information you need. Simply, most of us don't like the interference. I have yet to meet anyone in a HOA that I need to controll any aspect of my life or tell me how to spend my money. If this is out of a need for controll, Don't attempt to practice it on us (ie: the rest of the world). That said..............
If you feel you must write a spec for decks on your neighbor hood, why not write a level of maintenance statute instead? Standards and materials are so varied and constantly changing making any requirement written today destined for obselecence. If it meeds the standards of code (assuming you are in an are with a building code) you will find this works much better.
"But, hijacking a thread is bad form. "
Appearantly you don't know how things work around here ...
anyways .... anyone else have a nice story about birdhouses?
Jeff
Buck Construction, llc Pittsburgh,PA
Artistry in Carpentry
OK, guys. This wasn't meant to be a referendum on HOA's, or whether they have the right, legal or otherwise, to place guidelines on decks. My HOA does have the legal right, and it currently requires the use of redwood or cedar. If that sends you into an apoplectic seizure, then go vent on another thread. So, please, no more rants or stories about how you ran into some control freak ARC.
Maybe, just maybe, I can get this thread back on track. It's worth a shot.
I have received an inquiry from a HO about the ability to use composites, and would like to accommodate the request by providing them with some guidelines of acceptable materials, if possible. Maybe ALL composites are superior to wood? Perhaps ALL composites are POS? Perhaps my friends at Breaktime can lend some guidance of what to look for and what to avoid in composite decking? The objective remains the same; ensure that any alternative materials will result in a quality product that looks good. That doesn't sound too unreasonable to me. Thanks to all with earnest replies.
Edited 8/23/2004 1:34 pm ET by Freestate_1
Sorry... but what you are asking is like asking what the prettiest wood is.
Composites vary HUGELY in quality. If the current standards include redwood... then almost any of the composites would be superior. That is my opinion... I have made a lot of money ripping out old redwood decks that have not been properly cared for.
The standard of stain or paint acceptance is not a good requirement. As has been stated.. there are high quality products that cannot be painted or stained.
The standard of wood content is also not a good idea... as some of the new plastic materials are far superior to anything available.
Why not just require the deck to be "built to an aesthetic standard" and require the deck to be "maintained according to the product manufacturer's recommendations"? Each material has it's own maintenance standard and can be easily accessed for reference. The initial product is far less important than maintenance in the overall appearance, over time.
I can empathize with your intentions (don't agree with them, but I empathize)... but to attempt to regulate the initial product is one that I fear is misguided in the end result desired. At least I am assuming the requirement is to produce a good looking deck that will not be a blight on the neighborhood.
FWIW, it may be helpful if you post some pics of the deck "look" that you are trying to achieve. If the houses are ultra-modern architecture... my suggestion would be one product. If the houses are colonial... another... and so on.
I'm getting the feeling that there are not many fans of HOA's
We have a native run HOA here in town and people are paying some huge bucks to live there. I personally couldn't live there if I were paid. One of the requirements is vinyl siding...the whole neighborhood looks like a full scale, pastel, Barbie Playland set complete with Barbie and Ken cars out front. My only comment is that these people knowingly gave up a chunk of their homeowner rights to live there. Sacrafice the individual for the sake of the whole. If they want it, it's their choice. If the HOA wants people to use solid gold deck boards and someone knowingly accepts this and buys a lot, well, so be it.
"the whole neighborhood looks like a full scale, pastel, Barbie Playland set complete with Barbie and Ken cars out front." I thought you were going to say, "...complete with Barbie and Ken out front." But that wouldn't have been very nice. But the cars probably can't be out front, can they? Isn't there a rule that they have to be in their garages? ;-)
>My only comment is that these people knowingly gave up a chunk of their homeowner rights to live there.
The interesting thing is that (here, at least) most people don't realize what they are giving up. Most never even read the covenants. When you buy, the covenants are "sold" as a positive way to ensure the continuing quality of the neighborhood. Only after you're in, given the nature of people operating in groups, do you see that all too often they are used by one group to control another. The silliness I've seen has never been about quality, and only been about pettiness. Doesn't mean it's that way everywhere, and in a neighborhood of mansions, I'd also not be happy to see a shack, but you really have no idea how zealous or laissez faire they are until you're in.
Rich from Columbus, thanks for the on-topic, thoughtful reply. Guess I'm heading down the path of not making any specific restrictions on composite material.
WayneL5, the bad outcome that I'm hoping to avoid is a deck that becomes a "blight on the neighborhood" as someone colorfully put it. Such a deck could result from inferior materials, shoddy construction, or a combination of both. No one has said that brand "X" or type of composite is unquestionably bad, so it it doesn't appear that my goal lends itself to restrictions on material.
OK, I've finally gotten the advice I was seeking while trying to avoid being drawn into a distracting, but entertaining debate. No I'll jump into the pool:
To all the "live-free-or-die, HOA's-are-the-devil's-work" hysterics crowd, thanks for the fun. It is amusing to me that you are blind to this huge logic hole in your argument. You trumpet the virtues of self-determination and freedom of choice, and then in the same breath, shout down people's right to CHOOSE what kind of neighborhood they live in. Evidently your idea of freedom of choice does not apply to the CHOICE to buy a house in a neighborhood with an HOA.
And don't give me the tired old argument that some people don't know about deed restrictions when they buy their house. If they are too feeble minded to do the research, well, I have little sympathy. Ignorance is no excuse. If you don't believe me, try that line of reasoning with an IRS auditor, or perhaps a judge.
No doubt there are examples of HOA's run amok. I'm not defending crazy Nazzi-esque HOA's. If you like the idea of HOA's, there are plenty of neighborhoods that offer that option. If you don't like HOA's, well, exercise your right to buy/build in an area with fewer restrictions. We all get CHOOSE what's best for ourselves. It's all good.
WayneL5, the bad outcome that I'm hoping to avoid is a deck that becomes a "blight on the neighborhood" as someone colorfully put it. Such a deck could result from inferior materials, shoddy construction, or a combination of both.
If that's the goal, and I'm not going to get into the argument about whether the goal is a laudable one or not ;) , then your current restriction on only allowing redwood or cedar is an interesting one. Both are "high-maintenance" decking materials that can look very weathered (which i guess some people would say looks bad) if left unprotected after a few years. Do you have rules about how the decks must be maintained ?
Really, PT wood and the composites have the best chance of continuing to look the same as when they were installed over the long term.
I assume the local city/county inspectors would take care of the shoddy construction part.
For the composites, all of the manufactors have specific installation guidelines, At the very least, you could require that these be followed on any installation.
That's it!
You've crossed the line ...
I absolutely forbid you to live in a HOA Plan!!
Dammit!!!
JeffBuck Construction, llc Pittsburgh,PA
Artistry in Carpentry
I think you are on the right track.
FWIW, I think one of the main reasons you have run into such a freight train here about HOAs is because many of us have had projects that have become nightmares because of the HOA... an HOA that we had no idea existed... and we CERTAINLY did not sign on to the "requirements" that they entailed.
I can relate a story that may give you some insight. We had a job to install a second floor balcony/deck over an existing single story portion of the house. Plans had been approved by the HOA, the building dept of the city... permits were pulled. All is good, right?
Nope!!!
Get to job on the start day. The guys and I are getting unloaded and along comes the HOA rep. Turns out the HOA has restrictions on our trucks being parked on the street. Cool... "where would you like us to park?". Parking lot at the rec center FOUR blocks away!! Nothing in the contract to compensate for that!
Materials delivery. HOA rep comes by and makes my guys move materials to rear of house ,,, RIGHT IN THE WAY of the construction process!! (only place that was "out of direct view of the street") Nothing in contract to accommodate this!
Knew about the restrictions on work being done before 9 and after 6... cool. But did the guy have to be there 1 hr before quitting time to be sure we were done "right on time"? My guys started wrapping up at 5, just to avoid dealing with the guy. Nothing in my schedule to allow for that!
Time to put up temp stairway to get up on roof. OOPS! "No exterior stairways". OKAYYYY... the plans clearly showed a stairway on the final drawings!!! had to wait for 5 days to get a ruling. NOTHING in my schedule OR my contract to deal with the delay on APPROVED PLANS !!!
Guy from HOA used to like to hang around the job to be sure we "did it right" [cough]. I showed up one day... he is under the deck assembly AS IT IS GOING UP via crane!!! Nothing in my liability insurance policy for THAT !!! I threw him off the job for being an idiot and for violating OSHA and my liability regs (no outside persons on site). Even did it nicely.
The pip-squeak tried to get the permit pulled for my "horrendous action" of throwing him off the site... as he had a legitimate "right" to be there because of the rules of the HOA.. "Horrendous" would have been if he had that assembly had fallen on his head after the chain broke!! IF he would have lived.. I am sure that I would have been in court so fast that it was not funny!! the guys at the building dept laughed him out of their office... and told him to stay away from the job-site, as it probably was a violation of OSHA for him to be there. I never did try to get an opinion from OSHA on the "yea" or "nay" on that one... but at least it got him outta my hair... for a short while.
Ahhhh, the crane!! We had to have a crane to lift the assembly to the roof (hindsight, we would have built it in place... but it seemed like a good idea at the time!) "Noise restriction". Yep.. he tried to make a case against the crane being there for noise. That was the reason I went to the job in the first place that day... to deal with some idiot complaining about the noise from the crane!!!
It finally got to the point that I asked the guy to meet with me so that we could work out a compromise. I took him to lunch and we began to talk. Turns out that the guy wanted a deck on his house that was similar... so he thought it was a good idea to hang out and see how it was done... so he could DO IT HIMSELF on his house!!!! Nothing in my contract FOR SURE to include training a behind-head on how to build a deck that it took my guys YEARS to learn how to build... and several thousands of dollars for my customer to get drawn up by an architect and approved by an engineer!!!
Needless to say.. I told the guy that if I saw him on my job-site again, I would have him arrested for trespassing. He gave me no further trouble after that.
Bottom line... I was able to bill a small amount of the extras on that job. But in no way was it enough to deal with the hassles I had to put up with. Hassles that I DID NOT SIGN ONTO, nor know where in existence. I lost my proverbial behind on that job, and almost lost every guy on my crew. Only because I did everything I knew how to do to get them to stay, was I able to salvage them.
Now... when I go into a job that has a HOA to deal with... I double my price and ask to meet with the HOA rep. If I am going to deal with the hassle... I am going to put a full-time person on the job, just to deal with the BS and allow my guys to do the job I pay them to do. Thus far... I have gotten every job that I have bid double on (6 of them). Apparently, most of the other contractors in my area have caught on to the cost of doing business in a neighborhood that has a HOA.... because I have yet to hear that my bids were too high in comparison.
Sorry for going off on a tangent and ranting... I tried to contain myself in earlier posts (actually taped my fingers together once). But you had to go and defend the HOA without explaining how it effects the contractor who does the work.... and it got me a bit upset.
Have a nice day, and again... my apologies. Oh yea... PLEASE do not become a HOA like this one was!!!
Edited 8/24/2004 7:58 pm ET by Rich from Columbus
Rich, what neighborhood was that? I really want to avoid it. as it is an Irish sounding suburb is making my life miserable with THEIR mistakes. I never thought I would find commercial work so much less irritating.
Yes... it is in that Irish sounding town... actually just north of it, but it is still covered by the city of the Irish.
The building dept is not that bad, as long as you sit down with them and get to know their own little quirks. If you are used to Cbus... and then go to the Irish-burg... it IS culture shock! LOL
Exhibit A, submitted by Rich: "HOA Gone Wild" (not as entertaining as Girls Gone Wild).
What a nightmare. No excuse for that kind of meddling.
at least not with their clothes on ....
JeffBuck Construction, llc Pittsburgh,PA
Artistry in Carpentry
Fellas, I have been doing work for condo and home owner association since 1983, and successfully. There is an intelligent way to work “with” them as opposed to “against” them. Unlike many, I don’t consider them to be PITA, but instead, a tremendous market, and a market where you’re presold after doing just a couple of things for them.
In addition, I currently charge at least double the rate of most of my competitors. I also have had associations who stopped using me because they could get cheaper contractors, call me after a couple of years to ask me to take on their associations’ problems again. I recently told two such associations that I was not currently taking on any more clients.
One thing I’ve learned is that one should not just drop off a Proposal. For any work over about $2000 or more, I ask to make a presentation at their next Board meeting, or at the least, to meet with 2-3 Board members. At that meeting, salesmanship takes over and I’ve yet to not be awarded the job after one of those meetings. The way one handles himself at those meetings is what determines how they feel about you, no different than with any private party.
Sure there will be a jerk; there will be the know-it-all, and there will be the ignorant person, but by and large, a professional can and will address any and all questions asked of him.
My point is this. Before being so quick to condemn any associaton, first question your own sales tactics, attitude toward them and realize that they are after all, customers, those stupid ignorant people who, if given the oppotunity, will sign our big pay checks.
In yesterday mail I got a check for repairs to four different 2 story roofs. The material cost me about $40, and I had less than four hours, including travel time, into the total of the four roofs. My invoice was $872.00. You do the math.
For years I’ve advised that the #1 priority for any contractor is to create a very positive WOW! brand name for his company. And for years, my advice has been ignored. My son specializes in remodeling high rise condos and often does work for their respective association. He is probably one of the most expensive remodelers in Naples. His net profit is triple our industry average. He simply cannot handle all of the incoming calls he’s getting so he has to turn them down.
Everyone tries to save a buck, whether they are a cheapo association or filthy rich, but most people will still pay a premium for top notch service and professionalism, but that professionalism must be shown, proven and exemplified in every single “contact” with the public. In fact, you must reek of professionalism if you expect to get the monies that professionals can demand.
The association being discussed here is not the kind you're discussing. Or, at least, mine isn't like yours. The association transacts no business. It has no money. It enters into no contracts. It pays no bills be/c it does nothing.......except exercise control over the neighborhood. It's pretty simple. Board of Directors appoints an Architectural Review Committee. Any project of any sort that involves a change to a house or property gets brought before the committee. Following the standards set forth in the covenants, it either approves or denies the proposal. Usually the covenants have enough ambiguous phrases that the committee can approve/deny anything at all and never have to give a reason. The only appeal is to the board of directors, which appointed the ARC to begin with. If people are reasonable, the process can be fine. If people wanna be unreasonable, they can make it a nightmare for someone they don't like. And alternately, they can approve complete trash if it's for one of their friends. They can be the most petty and anal people you can fathom, and you have no recourse. Such as, here there's a guy who wants to put a lein on the house of anyone who lets the grass within 2' of the road grow to more than x". And he'll go out with a ruler if he has to. Why? Because he can. It's just the nature of people when they get a little taste of power.
Cloud, I'm aware of the crazies, and expecially those who exercise power plays just becasue they have it.
In fact, I was scheduled to make a presentation to a Board meeting and combination Archetectural Committee meeting - unusual, but time was a factor.
Anyway, knowing in advance which person was the power play gamer, I nipped it at the beginning of my presentations by asking what the purpose of the meeting was, to address a request as being reasonable, unreasonable or merely for the typical high school bully who wanted to exercise power at the expense of other people's lives. I had a great relationship with this Board and had encountered this woman before. The bottom line was that she never said a word, I assume because she didn't want to validate the validity of my question.
You must remember, at 62 I'm just too old to play BS games by shallow people of those with low self esteem, the bully or whomever., and it's not unusual for me to let other know that. Life is simply too short and no one is going to contribute to the shortening of my own. Th enice thing about handling myself in a no nonsens manner is that I get tips in advance either by a Board member, Committee member of a property manager, so I never get ambushed. I prepare and I usually go overboard in my preparation.
In fact, it's also not unusual for me to start a presentationby sayikng: "If there are any members who subscribe to the philosophy of short term,, albeit lower quality, repairs, minor or major, because if so, there is no point of my presentation because I simply don't do half baked work. Furthermore, regardless of what the years it is, I have have never found steak selling for the price of hamburger.
Sorry if I misinterpreted this thread. I just wanted to let my peers know that done correctly, "associations" be they condo, home owner, or any "committee" represent a tremendous source of high margin markets.
I've never appeared before mine be/c they only established it after I started building. My atty advised me that that grandfathered me in. Took the HOA a while to accept that, but they really didn't have a choice. But I've seen them operate with others, and apparently they do have time for bs and petty games and intimidation and the "old boys network" stuff. Also seen some operate w/ regards to projects I have, and it's a real hit or miss exercise. Depends on how much or little they like wielding power. Because remember, they're essentially answerable to no one.
Cloud, if you think about it, they also have a non paid, thankless job and have to listen to complaints from every cheapskate, nitwit moron that buys in their association plus that guy who thinks he's a big shot and expects everyone to cater to him .
While working on them I have owners tell me they should not have to pay me to replace or repair their front door jamb that's rotting, or torn lanai screen; the association should. I usually reply that I'll pass their suggestion on to their Board or Prop. Mgt. Co, but to then expect their monthly maintenance fee to increase - since there are no free lunches other than at a homeless store front. That usually stops the whining.
Associations can be are often are real PITAs, but with the right approach and service, they are great sources of income. And once sold on you, they often, like 80% of mine, never ask for prices in advance, just fax you a work order to fix this or that and Invoice them. Then 2 -3 weeks later you get a check. And these are "perpetual" customers who do not have to be sold each time like the private market.
Then you start getting calls from the unit owners are are aalso already sold on you and it takes off after that. As yo probably already know, associations are like little cities within themselves. Once you get hired by one unit owner, the calls start coming in from others in the same association. I evne do an occasional freebie for mine letting them know it's done at no charge because of my appreciaton of their business, and boy, does that go a long way to obtaining their trust.
Anyway, let's face it. Unit owners and their Boards are really no different than us contractors. We have our own cheapskates, power players, know-it-alls, morons, sleaze, and PITAs. So what else is knew?
As before, we're talking about completely different things. In my case it's people who own their own house and land in a development. The board has no job except to have a mtg once a year and approve or deny someone's house plans. There is no prop mgmt company, no maintenance fee, no office, no nothing. No one complains to them be/c there's nothing for which they are responsible. This is not a condo assoc. This is a homeowner's assoc in a development single home lots. No income is possible from them. People maintain their own property just like any other single-family home. Apples and oranges.
OK, that's like my place. Except the association does handle our landscape sprinkler system and our roads, ponds and lakes - that's it.
The other thing is that we have to apply to them to approve our ext. paint color, any additions, roofing color - basic archetectural issues. We almost bought a condo but I talked Barb out of it. When we first moved her we rented one and one day I had my hook up to check my oil and some guy came over to tel me I couldn't work on my car. I asked him who I had to get written approval to check my oil, and if I also had to get approval to check my tire air pressure? He left in a huff. We call them "Condo Commandos."
Sonny
This is not a case of a HOA looking for the right product to use at their club house or some common area.
Instead they are looking to right specs about what individual home owners can use on the deck in their own back yard.
Sonny:
Re your .61 post, where can I go to read more of this kind of thing? Specifically, the last 3 paragraphs.
Thanks,Matt
In my 31 years as a contractor I think I read about two trade magazine articles about working for associations, but the content was basically superfluous, I have to say I know of no place to go.
I’ve been successful due to various reasons:
1. My general attitude toward my customers.
2. My own perception of professionalism and it’s exhibition
3. My particular use of visual aids
4. The research I do for new products ad application methods.
5. My approach of 1st determining their problems cause, and then
suggesting options with pros, cons, and prices of each.
6. My no nonsense approach.
7. Finally my many years of working with association, and as important, learning how to think as they do, their concerns, etc.
Anyway, marketing to a specific type of group is like studying a career, which is actually what target marketing is. I guess I’d have to write a paper with an organized format to post something valuable for you.
If you want, you can email me and we can start a dialogue about this market.
Thanks Sonny. I started a seperate thread in the business folder called "projecting a professional image". BTW - I don't deal with associations - only individual homeowners.
Matt
Well, "blight on the neighborhood" is difficult to right a specification about. Here are some thoughts.
As for shoddy construction, that ought to be covered by building code. If you have codes and inspections in your area, and building permits are required, then I think that is sufficient. If a structure complies fully with code, then it is safe, not "shoddy", and reasonable to expect of a property owner.
If there are not applicable codes, then you are in a position to write structural and workmanship requirements, which is difficult (professional committees take years to hone wording). In that case it may be wise to add the requirement that decks must be constructed to a particular code that is already established and widely available, which you specify.
As for materials, pressure treated lumber would be required for the structure, because the synthetic material are not strong or stiff enough to be structural. But, for the surface, you can allow, for example, certain species of wood that you specify (excluding pressure treated softwood), and any synthetic or composite deck surface. I believe any of the available materials are good looking and durable, and would allow them all.
On the other hand, deck surfaces are not in public view, so it's improper, in my opinion, to regulate them. Rather, if you had regulations such as a requirement that the underside of a deck (or balcony) must be finished (that is, the structural members out of view) or the perimeter be covered with skirting which essentially blocks the view (and you can list acceptable materials, for example, wooden or synthetic trellis, plantings, and so forth; or you can list prohibited materials, for example, plastic sheet, trailer skirting, panels embossed with faux stone, and so forth) then I think it will go a long way to proscribing designs which are unsightly. I can picture a raised deck having a finished underside, while a deck close to the ground be wrapped in trellis.
My hometown had restrictions that applied to "within view of any public street, walkway, right-of-way, or navigable waterway". I think it would be reasonable to apply standards to structures within such a view. I think it unreasonable to apply aesthetic standards to structures out of public view.
Relax,
Noone, as far as I can tell is shutting down anyone's choice of living standards. Most just don't condone the actions of HOA's. Myself included. Do you honestly think you can pose a question to a public forum, and not receive ANY off topic responses? No body hijacked your thread, they just voiced their opinions. If you want specific answers, I guess you should look elsewhere, because judging from the responses here, nobody wants to aid and abet the powers that be to dictate their actions. I guess my only question is: Why the hell do you care what your neighbor puts on his deck? A composite deck can be built so bad that it would make a professional cry, up next to a well built wooden deck. Live your own life and quit worriying about everyone else, what they CHOOSE to build, they will live with.
ColeCole Dean
Dean Contracting
It comes down to what type of bad thing you are trying to prevent with the regulation. The best regulation is specific enough to ban the bad outcome precisely and completely, without restricting in any way any similar event which does not result in the bad outcome. So, your regulation should ban the outcome, or any method guaranteed to produce it. Banning a method which might or might not produce the outcome is oppressive.
What bad possibility are you trying to prevent? Perhaps we can help narrow the regulation to precisely achieve the result.
Yeah, you got clobbered and deservedly so. Most here are serious craftsman who unlike HOAs, appreciate architectural detail and differences. HOAs have all but taken over Southern Cailifornia and Phoenix Arizona and have kept many an attorney employed.
Looking for help in constructing a quality project and you've come to the right place. Looking for help to control your neighbors and subdivisions, you've come to the wrong place. Pretty simple.
MES
Precisely.
ColeCole Dean
Dean Contracting