A customer wants to replace his old dark oak stair rails and bannisters with horizontal wires. He’s checked with the building department and they’re legal, so we’re digging deeper into the idea.
Has anyone done this in a residential application? I’m concerned about anchoring the posts (probably 2″ x 2″ square tube) so they will handle the tension in the wires. I’m also interested in how much tension the wires need.
I can build the hell out of a barb wire fence, but this needs to be pretty as well as strong. – lol
Replies
Tension, I have them tight enough so that you can't squeeze them together enough for them to touch by hand. And run the post down to solid blocking or a joist. The post can't be strong enough. Kids love to stand on them or "attempt" to slide down them on their feet.
"It is what it is."
Cable Rail from Feeney Wire(?) in Oakland. They have several systems.
John
Feeney is kinda local to Dave, you're right. Their service sucks though. You can also try Wagner industrials out of Wisconsin- they're super helpful. Their product is "Ultra-tec" cable rail. They'll ship un cut or measured cable, pre-swaged or un-swaged, whatever you need. They've got posts too. They've got cool fittings that can be hidden in the post if you want minimal hardware showing. http://www.wagnercompanies.com 888.243.6914
You do want those puppies taut. the 4" ball rule, and all. you'll need intermediate spacers at least every 42".
k
Edited 3/28/2008 12:05 am ET by KFC
I've had good luck with Feeney's service--what problems did you have with them?
Well, this just got greatly simplified. The HO sent me a 36 page pdf document from a company called Ultra-tec (http://www.Ultra-tec.com) in Carson City, NV. I haven't read it in detail, but after a quick pass thru it, it seems to address most of my questions.
I had some real specific questions, and the guy I spoke with on the phone at Feeney was really annoyed to be answering questions and not making a sale. Unhelpful to the point of being rude. I mentioned this in an offhand way to my stainless fabricator, who echoed similar experiences.
To contrast, when I asked the same questions to a Wagner rep, she happily gave me her best guess, which ended up being pretty close, and she also referred the question to a tech, who called me back in about 20 min. with dimensions to the hundreth of an inch. There were a few questions, but the pressing one at the time was head protrusion on the end posts, which I needed answered to give specs to my fabricator for gate clearance before I could get the ball rolling. They also answered my q's about the 'ladder effect' code issue in a real straight way- "here's the date the code changed, some BD's aren't up on it, check 1st, you may decide to not buy our product, etc... "
I think if I knew all the answers already and called in an order, Feeney might have been fine. But if you want detailed info that isn't in the catalogs, not so much.
k
A couple of comments regarding this thread:
1) Wagner Companies simply markets Ultra-Tec on their website - it is not a division of theirs. Ultra-Tec is located in Nevada.
2) That being said, seems all these cable railing discussions are stuck on either Feeney or Ultra-Tec - probably because they are the guys who have the biggest presence at the trade shows and/or advertise the most. For a better variety of fittings go to Johnson Architectural Hardware at http://www.csjohnson.com and Hayn Enterprises at http://www.haynlines.com. These are manufacturers of a great variety of hardware. Both company's roots are in the sailboat industrywhere they have been doing this sort of thing for years (up to 50, in fact!). In fact, Johnson is the manufacturer of most of the fittings that you see on the Feeney website - NOT the do-it-yourself stuff mind you - but the turnbuckles and fittings that you see under the 'custom cables and fittings' tab on Feeney's website. Personally, I won't install fittings that isn't attached either by swaging (read "the 100% correct way") or crimping (read "almost correct way - holds reliably, but doesn't look as good"). I'm planning on keeping my liability insurance premiums where they are now, thank you.
3) Either way, there is a whole world of hands-on guys that can work with you and serve your needs - from your local sailboat rigger to shops (like my own) who can help you decide on what type of hardware to use, can fabricate cable assemblies to your measurements, or, if geographically possible, travel to your job site and measure themselves. In some cases, I have been asked to do installations on site where it was desirable to pass the cable through the smallest hole possible in the intermediate posts, yet still attach an end fitting by swaging (I've made my swager portable with a custom cart). Both Johnson and Hayn can give you a list of dealers in your area if you give them a jingle.
Phew! I've been meaning to get all this off my chest for some time now. I feel better now.... off to work!
thanks for the two other sources. I'll check them out. I did already know Wagner is just a retailer of Ultra-tec- they have a lot of other good products too, and great service.
I wonder how the original poster's railing is going?...
k
Check this out. All from the hardware store.http://moderninmn.blogspot.com/2007_03_01_archive.html
I've seen the wires anchored with turnbuckles.
Instead of wire, try running some cattle panel by him. You can sandwitch it between 1X rails and cap it with a nice rounded piece, and kids can't squeeze through the 6X6 openings.
6x6 is not up to code. And in San Jose, you're more likely to have a client that wants something sleek and modern. If you want a screen infill check flynn enslow in SF. You may want to check with your BI in any case- horizontal cable is legal, but there are differing opinions about the ladder effect, and it depends how up to date your department is.
k
Don't have any "code" out here in the sticks. You can do pretty much anything you want to do as long as it doesn't kill too many people or livestock...
heh heh. how many is too many?
I've done the wire mesh thing with 2x4 wire too, that will pass code. It looks pretty good sandwiched between 2x2's under a 2x4 top rail- you get a nice 1/4"+/- reveal. That was an outdoor deck in the funky berkeley hills tho. For some reason I'm picturing this guy's client a dot commer client, stainless steel everywhere, nice clean lines. That's another reason the Ultra tec is cool, the tensioner is mostly hidden, so you don't have a lot of turnbuckles showing. Also, the head of the fastener only protrudes about 1/8" from the post. The Feeney system has a 1/2" cap nut that gets covered with plastic, it isn't as clean looking.
p.s. (and i only learned this recently myself- if you click on your (or anyone else's name, a window opens up where you can put personal profile info. then I'd know where you are. where are "the sticks"?)
Sounds like a good system. The "sticks" are in central Texas in Bastrop County where a lot of cockfighting corralls are made outta the 2X4 wire. ;-)
I don't do "profiles," 'cause I think they're mostly BS...
It's not one of those "hot 19 yr old coed" profiles... you can just put your general location, that's the main thing.
k
How about welding 2x2 angle between the posts as a top rail? Then you can tension as much as you like w/o any racking problems.
Seems you have a resource for the wire and a couple of solid solutions but I have to throw in my 2bits.
Your concern about the cable tension and posts supports is very valid. Tension should not be at the violin strings level but it will need to be near that, which goes to the support posts. You mentioned removing an existing oak system and replacing with 2x2 steel posts. I hope you can get some serious anchoring into/through the wood framing. And I'm sure that an exposed bolt/fastener head will not be appealing to the Owners. Interesting problem.
I just checked the Residential Building Code (can I hear an Amen!) and the Commercial one for guards and the commercial require a horizontal resistance to a 50lb. force on the top "rail" but there are no noted requirements at the residential level, probably your local BD will comment.
That goes back to the 2x2's. The wire will flex and transfer the load into the posts, hence the solid anchoring. Depending what you find I think your supplier will understand the situation and can provide you with solutions.
Hope this didn't create more confusion for you.
ciao, ted
No confusion, Ted. In a previous incarnation, I did a lot of work involving structural steel. - lol
My mention of 2" x 2" square tubing for the posts was preceeded by the word "probably" since the actual sizing will depend on the calculated loading from the wire tension as well as what we decide to do for anchoring.
The HO asked about welding the tubing to a plate which would be lag bolted into the floor. His eyes sorta glassed over when I said that we would have to figure out the pull-out forces on the lag bolts and the bending moments at the welds to know if that can work. Personally, I'm thinking that we'll need to build some kind of pocket under the floor and thru-bolt the bottoms of the posts to the pockets.
This is still early in the planning stage and we're just gathering information right now.
Dave, you read my mind about the thru-bolts.
If there was a budget for it I would suggest that the welded construction base of the post (I would offer a 2"OD steel pipe as a bit "softer") have the thru bolts welded to the underside. Thus no visible fastener and a single piece.
A lot of the final installation is going to come down to the appearance that the HO is looking for. Are they going "contemporary", or just looking for the contrast. Just curious.
I just tried to attach some shots of a house I did up in Detroit. I pushed hard to have the stairs with the cable system but the local building dept. wouldn't allow it. And the whole thing was supposed to be in tubular steel but......
It goes from the basement up to the second floor. Fun project.
Hope yours goes well.
ciao, ted
WHOA, headstrain!!!!!!!!!!! Sorry I didn't check the scan alignment! t
Edited 3/28/2008 1:10 pm ET by dirtyturk
Mr. Dirty,
nice work! I actually like the perforated look. Why didn't they go for cable, out of curiosity.
k
Little background here. Young lady wanted, and mostly got, a very contemporary house. And a lot of vertical. 9'0clg in lower level, 12'-0"clg at main, 10'-0" on second with about half in catherdral. A lot of brushed aluminum, stainless and steel. All the doors are 8'-0"high...did I mention she's 5'-1"?
The original intent was to have the stairs in all tubular steel structure with stainless steel posts through which we would run a cable system that is used on sailboats. (She's a sailboat person). Kind of mimic a mast and guy system like on her boat. The stairs start at the lower level and go up to the second floor. We wanted to cable hang the entire thing from the roof.
The local building department went eight ways from nowhere when we submitted the drawings with the engineers calcs and all. What you see is a sad concession to them. I still like it but...got a big no on cables.
ciao, ted
When was that? I think the ladder effect prohibition was removed from IRC in 2001, but some BD's haven't caught up yet.
Any way, you did nice work. Not everyone wants that look, of course, but that's a nice example of it.
k
Thanks for the kind words. The project started in '97 and we finished in early '98. The young lady sold it off about 2 years ago and I never really had a chance to do a full walk-through.
The wire rail was the easiest part of this house but that is another story.
These Code folks do see danger at every turn. I can't blame them sometimes but.....
ciao, ted
I'm surprised that they're actually code allowed thinkign of the roll under issues.... but I think there will be a significant problem with the posts sagging due to the tension over time without some serious beefing somewhere somehow. Even if you can get it tight enough at the completion, I think there will be sag issues later as the posts bend towards themelves.
Maybe a buck at each end of 1 vert post and horiz 3"dia 6fter fence post and some #4 smooth wire to twist in between?
John -
I've seen this done in circular corrals and the posts were set at an angle with the wires passing thru holes bored thru them. One end of the wires was anchored to a post and the other end tied to a ratcheting device so the tension could be adjusted as necessary.
Yes, slipping under the bottom wire can be an issue. Several years ago, I lost a nice colt who slipped under a bottom wire. I had him with a trainer who had a wire corral and the colt slipped in some mud and slid under the wire cutting a really deep gash in his chest. It took a couple of months of serious doctoring before he healed up, and he was un-rideable after he healed.
Oops, now i see that the HO did check with the BD. Ignore my concern on that. Is there a 2x2 top rail? that takes a lot of the moment force out of the base, right? esp. if the posts are thick walled tubing and don't flex too much.
k
Call Mike Baker at American Metal Specialties, Inc. in Tacoma, Washington- Out of state (888) 372-9344......Local (253) 272-9344......Fax (253) 627-3843 or email him at [email protected]. Web address is http://www.cablerailings.com
Mike is a good guy and they ship quickly- he's always good with advice too. I live in Canada and have bought a lot of stuff from him over the years and have always been happy with both his product and service.
The earlier post about kids climbing them or sliding on them is right on. If your client has small children or grand children around they should consider another option. Climbing them is often irresistible. For that reason they are not legal under our building code, and I am told many others.
Anyway Mike sells kits to be used with both wood or metal posts- but you are right- they have to be well anchored- I would recommend lag bolts into a double trimmer (minimum). If it is a joist supporting the post it should be doubled and blocked back one or two joist spaces. Good luck.
As long as you use a solid top rail as big or bigger than the posts you'll be fine.