I’ve got one small 20a circuit in the utility in this remodel that’s pesky.
I’ll crawl under the house tomorrow to see what I can find in the circuit, but what’s usually up when both the neutral and hot are hot…???
There’s no ground to this circuit, only 3 outlets I can find. I’ll look for junctions tomorrow under the house…
I discovered this problem by trying to install a GFCI in the first outlet in the stream and it would not reset.
It’s wired right in the box.
?
Replies
check to see if it's 220V feed to something...
check other outlets to see if it's cross fed..
it may be part of a switched leg..
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming
WOW!!! What a Ride!
Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!
Edited 11/27/2007 8:48 pm by IMERC
Mmmn,
Good tips. I ripped apart all the other outlets to see which was downstream- er than the others... nothing crossed and not 220 at the box. No switches i can see...
I can only guess there's a j box under the house with something screwed up in it...
Thanks,
Pat
If there is no ground leg on the circuit, what did you connect the ground terminal on the GFCI to?
You said that both neutral (actually white is neutral only in a 220V circuit. In 110V circuit it is the called the grounded wire) and hot wires are hot. How did you test them to determine that they are both hot if there is no ground - volt meter, neon test lamp, non-contact voltage detector?
Is there a load running on any other outlet on that circuit? If so, the "hot" white may be due to current flow completing that circuit.
In 110V circuit it is the called the grounded wire
First time I've heard that. I thought green or bare was ground in 110."Put your creed in your deed." Emerson
"When asked if you can do something, tell'em "Why certainly I can", then get busy and find a way to do it." T. Roosevelt
"(actually white is neutral only in a 220V circuit. In 110V circuit it is the called the grounded wire)"The voltage does not matter (120, 240, 460), for most people it is still called the neutral. But, the NEC no longer uses the word neutral in article 200, it is the "grounded conductor". For us old timers, white will always be "neutral", along with Switzerland.GFCIs can be used with no equipment ground conductor. They even include little stickers to apply if no ground is present.Frank DuVal
I'm under the impression that a GFCI can still do it's thing without a ground; However, I did ground from the panel to the first box when I had that part of the wall open.
I determined it was hot when the GFCI wouldn't reset. I have a simple 'beeper' that detects current when held close by. It goes off on both black and white.
I can't find any load downstream yet--which would account for current on the white--I'll be looking today.
Thanks
"You said that both neutral (actually white is neutral only in a 220V circuit. In 110V circuit it is the called the grounded wire) and hot wires are hot."
I've never heard that before either. Not even in the few books I've read on wiring houses, where I learned most of what I know (limited certainly) have I read that the white wire in 12/2 w ground (for example) is called the 'grounded wire.' That sounds really confusing, when I always thought the 'grounded wire' was the bare copper ground...
In NEC terminology, the wire that is the white or gray wire in residential construction is termed the "grounded conductor" - but almost everyone just calls it the "neutral". What is usually the "ground" in residential construction - the green or bare wire - is termed the "equipment grounding conductor" in the NEC. The term "neutral" does appear in the code in reference to multiwire circuits where the "neutral" may actually be neutral under some circumstances (and the term possibly appears elsewhere in the code).
I'm good with neutral and ground, I guess. As long as folks know what the hell I'm talking about!
Thanks
My starting point would be flipping breakers to determine which and how many breakers it takes to kill the power to both of the wires. This will help provide you with a starting point for troubleshooting.
If it takes two breakers turned off to kill all power, you have at least narrowed the possibilities to everything which is dead when those two are turned off.
Please clarify the cable size / type which supplies the box in question. Are you seeing old romex with just a black and white wire? Metal armored (BX) with just a black and white? Conduit?
Also method you used to determine the voltage at both wires. Meter, neon tester, etc.
You said the circuit was "in the utility" in this home - do you know that the 3 outlets worked properly before the remodel project started?
Jim
Never underestimate the value of a sharp pencil or good light.
Nothing unusal going on herre. Just an open neutral.And there is a load, such as light, that is connected hot to neutral after the break in the neutral.There might or might not be other problems. But they would show themself AFTER the open neutral is fixed..
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A-holes. Hey every group has to have one. And I have been elected to be the one. I should make that my tagline.
Bill,
Those pesky lightbulbs can be problematic.
Hopefully he will find it on his crawling expedition today.
I was trying to steer him a bit - if all power stops with just one breaker off, it at least narrows the field some.
Jim
Never underestimate the value of a sharp pencil or good light.
However, IIRC he never indicated how he determined that it was "hot".If he used a non-contact tester then just the open neutral running next to another hot wire can trigger it.For example, a couple of NM cables run through the same joist holes is sometimes enough. And the other cable could be on a completely different circuit..
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A-holes. Hey every group has to have one. And I have been elected to be the one. I should make that my tagline.
I know - I asked that question also, as did someone before me - never got a response.
I have a non-contact tester that is extremely sensitive - has a "gain" switch which, if turned up to the max sensitivity, will cause beeping anywhere within 6" of a live 120v line. Just about useless inside of SEP - beeps non-stop even when turned all the way down. Meter works much better there.
Jim
Never underestimate the value of a sharp pencil or good light.
Sorry--hit the hay early last night. Yes--non contact tester to determine current. But still--the GFCI will not reset on that circuit--and that's because of the open Neutral, no?
Gotta go to work.
Thanks
Yes, if the neutral is open then the GFCI does not have power between hot and neutral and won't reset.And has been mentioned the non-contact testers can sometime give false readings. In a case like this the with an open neutral running next to an active hot wire that can give a false reading even if the best non-contact testers.Common term ........ technical termNeutral - The Grounded wire (white or gray) because it is grounded via bonding to the ground electrodes at the transformer and at at the service entrance."The Ground" - Equipment grounding conductor (bare or green).And if a nail or screw cuts into a cable it can cut through one of the wires. But unless it crosses between the hot and neutral it won't cause the breaker to trip.Also check the neutral connection for that cable at the panel.Another place to look is where the cable enters the box or leaves the panel. Sometime the connector clamps are too tight. Also in old boxes they often did not leave much slack in the wires so often then have to be really pulled on. The combination can cause a wire to break.But if you have any upstream boxes check those connections. Specially back stabed receptacles. They are the most likley place to have problems..
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A-holes. Hey every group has to have one. And I have been elected to be the one. I should make that my tagline.
Edited 11/28/2007 11:00 am by BillHartmann
Thank you Mr. Hartmann. Always very helpful.
Pat
is this house old enough to have knob and tube wiring.....
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming<!----><!----><!---->
WOW!!! What a Ride!Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!
no
Bill, Good info as usual.
Jim
Never underestimate the value of a sharp pencil or good light.
Bill,
You need to pick up a copy of the 08 NEC. Article 100 has changed somewhat. The definition are now standardized throughout the code, and has taken some of the grayness out of ground, grounding, grounding conductor, and grounding conductor, equipment (EGG).
A Neutral Conductor, The conductor connected to the neutral point of a system that is intended carry current under normal coditions.
Grounding Conductor. The conductor used to connect equipment or the ground circuit of a wiring system to grounding electrode.
Ground. earth
Gounded Electrode Conductor. A conductor used to connect the system grounded conductor or equipment to a grounding electrode or a point on the grounding electrode system.
Although the neutral does go to the neutral point or midpoint on the transformer, it is no longer referred to as a ground anywhere in the 08 NEC. It is a current carrying conductor only.
Me thinks it is going to take a new generation or two of electrician to clean up our nomenclature.
Dave
So they are going back to the older definitions..
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A-holes. Hey every group has to have one. And I have been elected to be the one. I should make that my tagline.
I was wonder what the "neutral points" did a google.http://forums.mikeholt.com/archive/index.php/t-78067.html"JJWalecka
06-06-2006, 06:33 PM
I thought that I read something regarding the definition of the Neutral conductor. I have searched but to no avail.A definition that I found is such:
Neutral -The grounded junction point of the legs of a wye circuit. Or, the grounded center point of one coil of a delta transformer secondary. Measuring the phase to neutral voltage of each of the normal three phases will show whether the system is wye or delta. On a wye system, the phase to neutral voltages will be approximately equal and will measure phase to phase voltage divided by 1.73. On a center tapped delta system, one phase to neutral voltage will be significantly higher than the other two. This higher phase is often called the "high leg".Grounded Conductor - A system or circuit conductor that is intentionally grounded, usually gray or white in colorTechnically speaking:
Would it be wrong to refer to the white or gray conductor installed to a device or lighting fixture as the neutral?
Is term neutral pertaining to the grounded conductor?Thank you,Justin J. Walecka
tom baker
06-06-2006, 06:59 PM
"Technically speaking:
Would it be wrong to refer to the white or gray conductor installed to a device or lighting fixture as the neutral?
Is term neutral pertaining to the grounded conductor? "A neutral is not always a grounded conductor and a grounded conductor is not always a neutral.
A 120/240 3ph 4 wire high leg service has a grounded conductor that is not a neutral.
A 120 volt circuit has a grounded conductor but no neutral.
I use the term grounded neutral conductor.Understanding what a grounded conductor is important. There is an entire article in the NEC on it, Art 200....
rattus
06-06-2006, 10:37 PM
Tom,I would argue that the grounded conductor in a 120/240V service is a neutral if we consider only the 120V legs. If however, we consdier the entire delta circuit, there is, as you say, no neutral.
JJWalecka
06-07-2006, 07:12 AM
Tom Baker and Rattus,Thank you for the feedback on my potentially inane question.
Not sure were I'm going with this... If I said install the neutral to the receptacle would that be incorrect. Technically speaking.Justin J. Walecka
bphgravity
06-07-2006, 10:59 AM
Possible addition to the 2008 NEC:5-36 Log #1554 NEC-P05 Action: Accept in Principle
(100.Neutral Conductor and Neutral Point)
__________________________________________________ _____________________________________________
Submitter: Technical Correlating Committee on National Electrical Code¯
Panel Meeting Action: Accept in Principle
Add the following (two) definitions to Article 100 as follows:
Neutral Conductor. The conductor connected to the neutral point of a system that is intended to carry current under
normal conditions.
Neutral point. The common point on a wye-connection in a polyphase system or midpoint on a single-phase, 3-wire
system, or midpoint of a single-phase portion of a 3-phase delta system, or a midpoint of a 3-wire, direct current system.
FPN: At the neutral point of the system, the vectorial sum of the nominal voltages from all other phases within the
system that utilize the neutral, with respect to the neutral point, is zero potential.
Panel Statement: The revised wording removes the term “circuit” as was pointed out in the TCC ballot, there is no
definition for a “circuit conductor” and the “neutral conductor” could be in a branch circuit, feeder or otherwise. The
revised text also establishes a differentiation between the “neutral conductor” and the “equipment grounding conductor”
which are in fact both ultimately connected to the neutral point of a system. The differentiation is that under some
normal conditions, the “neutral conductor” is expected to be current carrying while under normal conditions the
equipment-grounding conductor is never a current carrying conductor."So if there is no longer a Grounded Conductor what do you call the conductor on a corner Delta which does not have a neutral?.
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A-holes. Hey every group has to have one. And I have been elected to be the one. I should make that my tagline.
Bill,
I just posted the definitions.
I'm still trying to figure them out.
It seem that in the past each article committee could add, use or modify definitions as the wrote thier article. some of the conflicting issue were later ironed out in the final version, but some differences remained. Now article 100 is suppose to be the holy grail that all the other committee use for terms and definitions.
Maybe by the 2011 code version I'll have a little better understanding of the 08 :)
Dave
My starting point would be flipping breakers to determine which and how many breakers it takes to kill the power to both of the wires. This will help provide you with a starting point for troubleshooting.
If it takes two breakers turned off to kill all power, you have at least narrowed the possibilities to everything which is dead when those two are turned off. Good advice--did this already-didn't mention that. Only one 20a breaker controlling the circuit. I really expected to find another circiut mixing in...
Please clarify the cable size / type which supplies the box in question. Are you seeing old romex with just a black and white wire? Metal armored (BX) with just a black and white? Conduit? It's 12g Romex with no ground. Just black and white.
Also method you used to determine the voltage at both wires. Meter, neon tester, etc. I used my little non-contact voltage det. beeper after the GFCI I was trying to put in didn't reset.
You said the circuit was "in the utility" in this home - do you know that the 3 outlets worked properly before the remodel project started? They worked, indeed, but I did not ascertain that they were 'properly' working.
Thanks, Pat
Jim
Never underestimate the value of a sharp pencil or good light.This is good advice.
you have a nail or a piffin screw in one of the legs...
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming<!----><!----><!---->
WOW!!! What a Ride!Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!
Seriously?
Wouldn't this cause shorting and trip the breaker?
Pesky nails--pesky piffin...
My recent post on what screws for nice cab uppers really got the piffin screw thing going strong.. didn't expect 70 posts on that!
very well could be and you have a live short...
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming<!----><!----><!---->
WOW!!! What a Ride!Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!
Is a live short worse than a dead short? What about a live long? Would that be twice as bad?"Put your creed in your deed." Emerson
"When asked if you can do something, tell'em "Why certainly I can", then get busy and find a way to do it." T. Roosevelt
tuffer to find and smell worse..
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming<!----><!----><!---->
WOW!!! What a Ride!Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!
was working on a sub panel...
turned off several breakers...
took the wires loose...
at some point I got bit touching a disconnected wire...
so the chase is on...
started looking for a back feed...
found a host of some really MacGivered togethered stuff...
but the back feed refused to go away..
eventually I found it in the swamp cooler...
somebody had added a cleaner pump and routed it's plug in wire so that it rested up against the blowers drive pulley... the pully rubbed thru the wire's insulation till it took off the insulation for the hot, nutral and ground... there bares were laid up aganst the pulley...
when I pulled the pump the hot ground wire and back feed disappeared...
esentially the house got rewired looking for the problem...
these pics were typical of the make ups found... there were many that were far worse...
ya should have seen the ones behind the drywall...
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming<!----><!----><!---->
WOW!!! What a Ride!Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!
Geez, you want everything!
The connections all had wire nuts - some even had wire nuts and tape.
Don'cha know boxes cost money! Next you'll want the boxes anchored and probably a cover for each one too..........
I plead ignorance - what is a swamp cooler? - fan blowing over a wet hay bale?? I know it has a pulley driven blower - and may require a cleaner pump - past that I am lost.
Jim
Never underestimate the value of a sharp pencil or good light.
Desert air conditioner.
OK.
A follow up question, if I may: Do the mechanics of a "desert air conditioner" differ from those of say a temperate zone or tropical air conditioner?
Jim
Never underestimate the value of a sharp pencil or good light.
Swamp coolers work on an evaporative principle. Water is pumped over a mesh and air is blown through it, cooling the air and humidifying it. So they really only work in a desert environment. When there is very low humidity they are highly efficient.
Thanks - IMERC beat you to it and I was typing reply when you posted.
I type slow!
Jim
Never underestimate the value of a sharp pencil or good light.
the cobled together 2 and 3' pieces to make a run were cute too....
swamp cooler.....
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evaporative_cooler
cleaner pump is a add on gimmick....
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming<!----><!----><!---->
WOW!!! What a Ride!Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!
Thanks for the link - now I know 1) what a swamp cooler is and 2) why I have never seen one.
DE is always humid, therefore swamp cooler = useless.
RE: tape only connections - at least it looks like it wasn't that old cloth friction tape that turns into iron in 50 or so years.
Did they mix and match those 2' sections of cable? You know --- 2' of 12, 6' of 14, etc.?
Jim
Never underestimate the value of a sharp pencil or good light.
Did they mix and match those 2' sections of cable? You know --- 2' of 12, 6' of 14, etc.?
yup...
and threw in some zip cord when they could...
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming<!----><!----><!---->
WOW!!! What a Ride!Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!
Darn, I forgot the zip cord option - the 18ga is the #1 favorite around here because:
- It's skinny and easy to hide under the baseboard.
- Available in several different colors to match the door trim paint, this only makes a difference if it all can't be hidden under the baseboard.
- Can be "properly" secured with a office stapler OR (my favorite) a thumb tack between the conductors. "Iffen ya use that fatter cord (14 ga), ya hafta to use a nail er a carpet tack cause the thumbtacks don't hold so good - they're too short, ya know?"
- It's the cheapest.
- Always available by the foot at fine retailers everywhere - big boxes to Mom & Pop hardware stores.
Jim
Never underestimate the value of a sharp pencil or good light.
BTW... the tape was to hold the wires together 'cause there weren't any mechanical make ups under thos wire nuts...
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming<!----><!----><!---->
WOW!!! What a Ride!Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!
> ... esentially the house got rewired looking for the problem...
Sometimes that's the right approach. When a place is that screwed up, either fix everything or walk away from the job.
-- J.S.
Niiiiiiiice....
At least they used wire nuts.
I worked on a place for a nice couple. They had some plug in fuses in one box. The fuse kept frying so they just put bigger ones in.
They had a 30amp screw-in fuse on a lighting/plug circuit that included the bath and a bunch of outside garbage lights and plugs on the patio.
Bzzzt!
Just a note on the GFCI: they work by comparing the current in the hot wire to the current in the neutral (grounded conductor) wire. If the difference exceeds a few milliamps (5 I think), then it trips. The logic is that if the supply and return currents aren't equal, then some of it is going somewhere else, and that isn't proper. The difference is usually going to ground, and if that is through a human body there can be serious consequences. If you still are trying to find the problem, keep in mind that the GFCI is tripping because of the difference in the current between the two wires.
Some of the non-contact power sensors work off of capacitive coupling to a voltage, so no current has to be flowing for them to register. This means that you can get a misleading indication of voltage through a high-resistance load or short.
How went your crawl and have you found / solved your problem yet?
Jim
Ahhh yes! Up from the depths. House has a terrible crawlspace... all sorts of contorting thru grade beams and pony walls, pipes.. Then you've got the mud, 30-year-old cat ####.. you know.
Underneath I found a box upstream from the first box in the room. In that box I found a a neutral--taped black and wire nutted to the hot from the box. That would usally tell me that neutral is to be hot. I unwrapped it and found the casing on the wire nicked. Must have been wrapped to protect it--then confused later.
I put things right, installed my GFCI, fed the downstream outlets from it and things are just ducky!
thanks for all the input.
Perfect! Splains everything.
Question? were you a nice guy and rewrap the nicked insulation with white tape?
I try to be nice to the "next guy" because, frequently, the "next guy" is me.
Can't say as how I would blame you for not rewrapping with white from your description of the crawlspace. Chances are I would not have entered with the white tape with me.
JimNever underestimate the value of a sharp pencil or good light.
I ALWAYS think about the next guy because, like you, it's been ME so many times! I fixed the insulation problem by yanking enough cable into the box to cut off the old janky casing and old corroded connections, strip them new and put everything back together right.
I'm not an electrician, but I do a lot of electrical in my remodeling tasks. Usually I move electric, add circuits to bring things closer to current codes (like this time adding a second 20a circuit, dedicated microrangehood and DW circuits to the new kitchen) or splice into a circuit for new lighting and switches. I put a lot of new doors in place of old windows and there's usually a circuit running under the window that has to be moved up or down to crawlspace. I'll tie into that for exterior lighting and a sw.
One thing I always do if things are getting confusing is write in sharpie on the cover of my new box what is contained within. I know I'd be happy if I crawled back in somewhere to find a nice, neat j-box with "Back Bedroom lites/plugs/Patio door light" written right there for me.
I learned almost all my electric from books. I reserviced and rewired my previous house b4 I started out as a contractor. A friend was walking thru the house, "You did all that electrical?" He asked.
"Yep."
"Where'd you learn how to do that?
"Books, mostly," I said.
"Yeah, I guess books don't go 'BZZZZZZZNNNNNNNTNTTTZZZT'", he said, holding up an imaginary book as if it were shocking him.
Cheers,
Pat
Good man!
I write all over j-box covers also. Back sides of switch and outlet covers also.
Pet peeve on notes left by others -- read something like "Chip's bedroom, bed wall outlets." Like that is really helpful to the next guy! Well at least I know the box controls some outlets in some bedroom on some wall - better than a total mystery.
Jim Never underestimate the value of a sharp pencil or good light.
I saw that on a recent one. It was just as you say, "scott's bedroom."
cheers,
Pat