OK,
Just moved to RI, have a house with a different type of heating system than I’m used to seeing. It has a natural gas boiler, then routes the water to a condenser where the forced air is heated and then distributed.
Seems like an extra step here. Either heat the water to a hydronic system or have a gas furnace directly heating the air to be distributed.
Just curious about the system, going to rent this house for a while and then move so it’s not that important.
++++++++++++++++++
“Where will our children find their enjoyment when everything gets itself done by steam? Frederick Law Olmsted, 1850s”
Replies
It would be interesting to know if a NG to water heat exchanger is more efficient than a NG to air exchanger. If so, I can see the logic of such a system. All heat energy added to the water circuit will stay inside your house.
Scott.
Always remember those first immortal words that Adam said to Eve, “You’d better stand back, I don’t know how big this thing’s going to get.”
That's what I was curious about, too. Just seems like an extra step.++++++++++++++++++
"Where will our children find their enjoyment when everything gets itself done by steam? Frederick Law Olmsted, 1850s"
Yeah, it's not the most simple or efficient technique, but not (necessarily) that bad. An advantage is that it permits the boiler and air handler to be separated by some distance, and it permits multiple air handlers for zoning.
You might also see the system used where there some use of hydronic floor heating.
It is the most popular method of climate control in commercial buildings.
"If men are so wicked with religion, what would they be if without it?" Benjamin Franklin
I could see that for larger areas, but for smaller areas with the cycling it would seem less efficient. Just wondering how they sold the owner on the system.++++++++++++++++++
"Where will our children find their enjoyment when everything gets itself done by steam? Frederick Law Olmsted, 1850s"
There are several reasons that this makes sense.Multiple sources of heat. Easy to combine with solar or wood fired boiler.Mulltiple zones. The other zones can also be hydro air or hydronic or radiant.Maybe be difficult to vent a furnace where the air handler(s) are.Easy to combine with AC.Same boiler can also supply domestic HW..
.
A-holes. Hey every group has to have one. And I have been elected to be the one. I should make that my tagline.
Thanks Bill,
The multiple heat sources aren't a factor, but it looks like adequate fresh air was.
The air handler seems to split into multiple zones, but there's not multiple hydro air (nor radiant, baseboard, etc). That's why it seemed to be an unusual use.
Good news is that it seems to work and I'm only here one winter, so it's not my system to worry about long term. New filters already on order.++++++++++++++++++
"Where will our children find their enjoyment when everything gets itself done by steam? Frederick Law Olmsted, 1850s"
Unless the system was cobbled from spare parts it was probably built by someone who was of an industrial bent and likely is built to last. I wouldn't muck with it unless it was in bad shape or really lousy efficiency.
If your view never changes you're following the wrong leader
Oh, I'm renting, so no way I'm mucking with it. Just curious as I hadn't seen that system before. I'm a transplanted Texan and not familiar with all the heating systems out there :-)++++++++++++++++++
"Where will our children find their enjoyment when everything gets itself done by steam? Frederick Law Olmsted, 1850s"
I actually have one of these systems that was installed 10 years ago. It allowed me to replace the existing oil fired furnace and electric water heater with a oil fired boiler that heated water that then was used to heat the air indirectly as well as water for domestic hot water. This allowed me to heat water by oil with the added benefit of having a water heating system that is guarenteed for 25 years. It is 10 years old now with no issues. I would be close to replacing a direct fired oil hot water heater at this point. You can also increase or decrease the temperature of the water used to heat both the water and air. The air is not scalded as it would be in a furnace and my experience is that the house doesn't get super dry. These are my experiences with the system, more $$ initially but I think I'd do it again.
Minor point: You can't "scald" air, and the type of furnace has nothing to do with the dryness of the air (though poorly sealed forced air ductwork can contribute to infiltration and subsequent dry air).
If your view never changes you're following the wrong leader
Minor point: You can't "scald" air,
You know, the guy said it doesn't scald the air when he was installing the system. When I was composing my reply I was considering, for the first time, that it probably wasn' true. However, there is something intuitive about air passing by very hot metal that leaves one to think it would be scalded as opposed to the less severe jaunt through a air handler heated by hot water. In any event, thanks for the clarification, it makes logical sense. (as opposed to the other kinds)
It's a common misconception. But the absolute amount of moisture in the air isn't changed by heating, only the relative humidity, and the relative humidity changes the same (goes down) regardless of the type of heat.
If your view never changes you're following the wrong leader
I'm seeing the benefits of having lots of hot water available. No gripping from DW about not enough hot bath water.
Do you find the operating costs to be lower or about the same as the more common single family systems? Just curious.++++++++++++++++++
"Where will our children find their enjoyment when everything gets itself done by steam? Frederick Law Olmsted, 1850s"
Kind of on topic, I'm throwing around the idea of running a loop from my fireplace to a hot water coil installed to a conventional NG forced air furnace.
Any experience or thoughts?
From initial checking it looks like I could get anywhere from 100,000 to 175,000 btu while the fireplace is burning. ( nightly)
???Remodeling Contractor just on the other side of the Glass City
I have some comments from someone that has done this. Possilbly Art so I am directing this to him..
.
A-holes. Hey every group has to have one. And I have been elected to be the one. I should make that my tagline.
That's called hydro/air correct?
Is th op calling the heating coil a condensor correct?[email protected]
Only if it's a steam system.
If your view never changes you're following the wrong leader
Hydronic..........?
Hot water coil with air forced through the coil rather than being heated by a flame or electric coils.
Perhaps I have the terminology incorrect.
You see similiar technology in gas sation repair bays and ware houses all the time hanging from the ceiling. Hot water coils with a fan behind it.[email protected]
Hydronic would be the more common term for the system.
Any time you heat water to distribute heat is referred to as hydronic.
Hydronic is the base, wether it's radiant floor, baseboards, or coils in a ducted system.
"If men are so wicked with religion, what would they be if without it?" Benjamin Franklin
It came to me........hydro air. I know a lot of folks that love this type of system although I understand it is pricey.
Thanks.[email protected]
I was just replying to the question about whether you could call the coil a "condenser". Answer: Only if it's a steam (vs hot water) system.
If your view never changes you're following the wrong leader
"..question about whether you could call the coil a "condenser". Answer: Only if it's a steam (vs hot water) system."
The answer to the question is no, under all circumstances. A steam coil is never correctly refered to as a condenser. Technical accuracy is important to professionals, so there is no ambiguity about which they speak. I realize that the original poster is not a professional and understood the function of the coil to which he referred. I understand that you are not a professional either.
The word "condenser" in the HVAC world has a very specific meaning, and while steam might actually condense inside of a steam coil, it is not a condenser.
I'm thinking radiator. I knew when I phrased it that neither evaporator or condensor was probably correct, but then forgot when I was typing :-)
++++++++++++++++++
"Where will our children find their enjoyment when everything gets itself done by steam? Frederick Law Olmsted, 1850s"
"Heat exchanger" is always safe.
If your view never changes you're following the wrong leader
It is the most popular method of climate control in commercial buildings.
In the NW, heat pumps are the standard. Even in skyscrapers. There they use a hydronic loop, with tempered water, cool in the summer cooling season, warm in the winter.
The tempered water runs to the HVAC, where the heat state is mechanically altered.
Systems which run cooled or warm water to an airbox with a simple heat exchanger, and no intervening heat pump are considered obsolete in the NW.
Edited 11/25/2007 11:27 am ET by McMark
That's strange, I'm in the NW & do skyscrapers.
I will say on all my highrise resi buildings it's heat pumps, but the last 6 commercial ones I did had a boiler, & a chiller to provide either hot or cold water depending on the season.
"If men are so wicked with religion, what would they be if without it?" Benjamin Franklin
But the boiler and the chiller temper the water. That water then runs in the hydronic loop to HVAC heat pumps, which either scavage or dump heat into the water depending on the thermal season.
So the water is not a "stand-alone" system
WaMu s that way, as is Columbia and newer buildings
OK gotchya, I didn't think those vav boxes had that ability, I thought they were a simple coil.
You worked on WAMU?
Were you there for the big sanican walkout?
"If men are so wicked with religion, what would they be if without it?" Benjamin Franklin
VAV are the old school, but the vast majority of positive or negative BTU's are thru heat pumps.
I wasn't at the WaMu, but I know about it
What was the Sani-can walk-out? Not being cleaned often enough?
Somethin about not being cleaned IIRC.
Plumbers & fitters walked off & local 32 threw a fit about the non sanctioned walk off.
2004 I put 54 vav's in at the Bremerton gov center AKA the Norm Dicks building some had 3way valves other had 2 way's.
You in the mechanical field?
Plumber, fitter, hvac--- union?
"If men are so wicked with religion, what would they be if without it?" Benjamin Franklin
You in the mechanical field?
Plumber, fitter, hvac--- union?
Not in the mechanical field anymore, but I spend all day walking around and staring at others work in the ceiling.
My dad was in 32 many years. Was sent to the Nationals at Purdue in '52, and took second. He taught for 32 from 54 to 67, then was President of the MCA from 74 to 78.
Small world.
Your dad worked for my great grandfather, who used to be the business manager of local 32 then became the apprentice coordinator in the 50's.
Your dad would have been one of my dad's instructors. My dad did his apprenticeship from 56 to 61.
"If men are so wicked with religion, what would they be if without it?" Benjamin Franklin
I'll talk to my dad about this today
Your dad worked for my great grandfather, who used to be the business manager of local 32 then became the apprentice coordinator in the 50's.
Your dad would have been one of my dad's instructors. My dad did his apprenticeship from 56 to 61.
Was your greatgrandfather Dale, Al, or Tom? Your dad must have been in class with Fred Volker, the PI in Bellevue.
Ever hear of Navarre Mechanical?
My great grandfather was Harry Busch----- yeah yeah I know I've heard all the jokes allready. He was the Business manager who brought the plumbers & fitters into one local.
Fred was my dad's apprentice.
My dad was Bob Wicklund
I have to see Fred tomorrow---- thanks for reminding me. ;-)
"If men are so wicked with religion, what would they be if without it?" Benjamin Franklin
My dad was Don McKillop, and he worked almost exclusively for Navarre Mechanical, but also University.
I had a boss named Mike Stidham who was a fitter, and went thru apprenticeship the same time as Fred. Mike also later taught, and Tullis was one of his students
Mark & Fred are also known as the grusome twosome ;-)
I've known em both for about 20yrs.
Your Dad's name sounds really familliar, but not sure if I can put a face on it.
If he's gone to any of the oldtimer events I'm sure I've met him.
"If men are so wicked with religion, what would they be if without it?" Benjamin Franklin
>There they use a hydronic loop, with tempered water, cool in the summer cooling season, warm in the winter. For residential use, if one could accept HV, there's Unico's Unichiller, which does this very thing.Now, what I find to be very forward-looking about these hydronic systems is that they can be cheap Off Peak electricity for heating and cooling through the use of heat exchanger tanks and ice-making equipment for residential use.In my area, the Off Peak rate differential for electricity is 6 to 1, and I have heard that there are places in California where it's 10 to 1 and increasing. Off Peak electricity certainly works out cheaper than gas or oil in our market, and the only thing that comes close is MicroCHP.
I own a small 4 story office building with a chiller/boiler... kinda a neat system... pretty simple... it'd be real simple today with pex.. vs the hard pipe mine has...
i have a 4 pipe system which means i can have the heat and a/c on at the same time... (something i don't do by manual over ride) basicly 2 coils in each air handler with a small 24v valve thats hooked to/controlled by each thermostat... lets cold water or heated water into their respective coil... blower blows over said coil to condition the air... pretty simple... i replace alot of belts motors and bearings... but it is a 1968 building and i'm the only one who ever maintained it (last 7 years) before that it was on it's own...
p
Do you work with hydronic heating? I'm a GC and a client ran out of money on an addition some years back. The original plan was to use baseboard units. The stoppage gave enough time for a concrete slab to settle (homeowner started project then called me). End result is that appears that client could solve two problems. Use hydronic heat with pex in the floor and get it back level with a layer of self leveling light weight concrete. Know anything specific about the leveling mix? I would like to see this client experience something positive. Tyr
No, just moved into this house on a fairly short term rental and hadn't seen the system before. Don't have any advice for you on systems, was just curious as a user.++++++++++++++++++
"Where will our children find their enjoyment when everything gets itself done by steam? Frederick Law Olmsted, 1850s"
I also have a similar system designed by Amana (HTM) and sold in the 80s and early 90s. The concept was a great one for efficiency with a one gallon boiler made to be placed outdoors. In addition to space heating through the glycol to air heat exchanger, all combustion gasses and potential emission problems are outdoors. It also heats domestic hot water and my heating costs on a superinsuated 3500 sq ft house are in the $100-$150 range for the worst winter months in Colorado (about 1/2 of the conventional cost). the biggest problem with the system was poor quality components. Amana actually paid many customers to replace the system with a new one. I have been happy with my installation for 17 years. Some day soon, I will have to search out a replacement.
Howie
Thanks for the memories. Nothing like working on a rocket system at -40 in a blizzard.
And for no pay because it was your fathers.
I gotta say as it gets colder here I like the feel of the heat when it kicks on. Be interesting to see how the gas bill treats me.++++++++++++++++++
"Where will our children find their enjoyment when everything gets itself done by steam? Frederick Law Olmsted, 1850s"