I am 50 (almost) and have been knot challenged all my life. But maybe someone can help me out. I spent a lot of time in lumber yards when I was young and one of the workers had a great way of lashing loose trim together. With one piece of twine, I think he used to put a loop in one end and then faster than you could follow he tied a knot that when the working end was pulled cinched up as tight as he wanted. I believe that it could not be easily untied and was usually cut.
I’ve looked in knot tying books but can’t seem to find it. I’m sure it is just a different application of a common knot.
Replies
Des,
This is an overhand knot. It is the simplest knot you can tie.
View Image
For what you want to do, double over about a foot of the end of the jute and tie an overhand in the doubled part. That will give you a loop at one end of a piece of string.
Terminology: an end of a line with no knots or other fancy stuff is called the bitter end.
Lets assume that you have laid a 6' piece of jute on the ground (with a loop in one end) and have stacked a pile of branches across that length. Stand astraddle the pile facing the jute with the loop on your left, and squeeze your feet together to bundle up the pile. Now kneel on it to shrink it some more.
Grab the loop and the bitter end and feed the bitter end thru the loop. Pull the bitter end snug to the bundle and place one foot on the bitter end just below where it starts thru the loop. Pull mightily. Move your foot and repeat till the bundle is as tight as you want. Tie another overhand knot in the bitter end around the loop.
Take a minute now to look at the pic above. Pretend the knot is real loose. Stick your left index finger in from behind to the left of and parallel to the bitter end. Curl your finger. Your finger represents the loop in your jute after you have tied the bitter end off.
This system is really simple and easy, but you don't want to have to try and untie it.
SamT
go get yourself a cookbook that shows you how to tie up a roast.
It's the same knot you are describing.
I don't think this in the one you're talking about, but my favorite knot is the "taut hitch", a sort of adjustable knot. Great knot for all sorts of HO and construction stuff -- lashing stuff together, tying up a sagging pipe (did I say it was adjustable?), tying down tarps (why it's called a "taut hitch"), etc.
Unfortunately, while my hands know how to tie it, I can't describe it very well. But it's not very complicated.
I bet you're talking about what my dad taught me as a "farmer's hitch." Pinch off a loop of rope, twist it three times, pull a section of rope from below the loop through the loop, and pull the new loop tight. Then you can run the loose end of the rope through the loop to cinch down tight whatever it is you want to cinch, but there's no "knot" to undo later, just untwist the rope.
Like you said, hard to describe, but does that sound anything like the know you're talking about?
Mike
No, that sounds like a logging hitch.
Just did a google search--looks like what I was taught is actually a trucker's hitch. It's a great knot, and when you do it really fast you can impress newbies standing by.
I searched for farmer's hitch and logging hitch but didn't come up with much.
Mike
Actually, what I was thinking of was the timber hitch:
http://www.42brghtn.mistral.co.uk/knots/42kttimb.htmlHere are a bunch of hitches, but I don't see my taut hitch:
http://www.42brghtn.mistral.co.uk/knots/42ktmenu.html
Ah, here we go:
http://www.troop7.org/Knots/Tautline.htmlAnd a bunch of them:
http://www.troop7.org/Knots/
The tautline hitch is what I learned as a Magnus hitch or adjustable hitch. It's in Clifford W. Ashley's book of knots. IIRC, he found it in an 1850's British Navy document by a guy named Molesworth. It can be adjusted in either direction quite easily. Its primary use was securing cargo on sailing ships. It's also the knot you tie to form a large loop in the line you throw to a man overboard. He can adjust it to suit.
The other really useful knot I got from Ashley is his constrictor. I use it to attach ties to power cords and hoses.
As for bowlines jamming, I've never been unable to untie one, even in lines that have parted under the strain. If you follow the standing part to the knot, you come to a loop that goes most of the way around the standing part. Just bend the standing part away from this loop towards the small gap, and push the loop up the standing part, and it releases. This is called "breaking the neck" of the bowline.
-- J.S.
Des,
I think you most likely mean a clove hitch. Try looking for it online and see if it will work for you.
-Kit
SamT's suggestion works very well and is easiest.
If you need to cinch these bundles down real tight, the Trucker's Hitch will provide mechanical advantage. This hitch is also used to cinch down lumber or boats onto roof racks. You need pretty stout twine or cord as the mechanical advantage will break or saw through the cheap stuff. The trucker's hitch is a more stable variation of the farmer's hitch.
Edited 4/17/2005 8:03 pm ET by Pierre1
Trucker's hitch is my favorite for tying a load down too. Use it more than any other
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I believe the only difference in a hay hitch and a truckers hits is an extra loop through the loop. If the tension is heavy an extra hitch takes the stress off the rope and also allows another pivot point like block and tackle. The double hitch takes more room that is normally no problem on a load of hay or a full stack of lumber. Ive done a lot of both with a lumber yard and being on a farm.
Tim
When I want the trucker's hitch 'pivot point' or loop to be more stable, I tie it as a figure-8, then thread through and pull hard. Final tie-off is with several half hitches, with the rope end tucked under the tight hitch. Bomber.
Safety tip: Nylon rope - I use recycled climbing rope to tie lumber loads - stretches in the rain. So if you tie off with a dry nylon/perlon rope and it's raining, the rope will stretch out as it gets soaked. After awhile the trucker's hitch loosens...... Polypropilyne does not stretch when wet.
Confession: I've always got several lengths of rope coiled in the van. 11mm (7/16") perlon for most loads, or to pull up material onto a scaffold. Also have 50' of 5/16" low stretch caving rope that I use as a control line for crane operations. I've used rope to lower a 150# Greenlee tool chest out a barn loft door, controlling the rate of descent with two wraps on a stout roof collar tie. I've hoisted appliances up the outside of a house, using a Z-drag setup anchored to an overhead beam.
If a rope can solve a problem, I'm all over it like the knot-nerd that I am.
:-)
Tim, this is the knot I know:
http://www.isu.edu/outdoor/knots.htm
(First one, labeled Drivers Hitch)
Is that the one everyone here is calling the truckers hitch?
Mike
Good illustration.
The knot is upside down for most ties. With the other end of the rope attached to the truck or trailer you are pulling the line taught all the time over the load. So that business end of the knot is above the hand. It is done with one hand in an instant . When that knot is done , loop it again through the loop for an added hinge. I notice it has several names. It was first known to me as the hay hitch with the added loop. That hitch is pulled down normallyusint your natural weight to achcor it . A double hitch will often take up as much as 3 to 4 feet on a load of hay . That and the length of the double hitch takes some room to apply it . Of course the business end of the rope is attached under you to the truck or trailer and that end is the end you are holding with the free hand untill its looped through to make a loop shoe tie . A simple knot or a double clove will never slip but it wont untie with out being cut. Some ropes such as 100 percent nylon wont hold in a half hitch from the loop such as half a shoe tie. Cotton ropes work really well with polyester blend as they are softer and less resilent in a knot.
Tim Mooney
Go a little further afield and look at The Shipping News by Annie Proulx (the book, not the movie). Each chapter begins with a knot that is more or less thematic to the story. She credits a book on knots that I can't recall.
That would be the Ashley Book of Knots, by Clifford W. Ashley. I've got a copy - about 600 pp. of knots.Andy Engel
Senior editor, Fine Woodworking magazine
Other people can talk about how to expand the destiny of mankind. I just want to talk about how to fix a motorcycle. I think that what I have to say has more lasting value. --Robert M. Pirsig
What did Ashley put in that pipe of his'n to come up with all those knots? A great reference book, arguably the best of the lot.
A pretty cool book of mine is an original 1908 US Navy Bluejacket's Manual, leather bound. Full of old-tyme sailing ship stuff, ropework, old naval artillery data, discipline, signals, etc.
US Navy captain Johnson gifted it to my grandfather during WW1, at Halifax harbour.
Trucker's hitch is very handy. So is a double trucker's hitch, especially for tying a bundle such as this poster wants to do.
Not sure I have the name right, it's just what I was taught. Simply two loops instead of one and the rope end pulls them both together. You can use a bowline in one end as the beginning loop.
Reading back over this, I have no idea if anyone will know what I mean. The visual spacial doesn't translate well into a verbal description! (A picture is worth a thousand words?)I'm thankful for the loyal opposition! It's hard to learn much from those who simply agree with you.
I try to be helpful without being encouraging.
Your two loop idea would work fine - it mimicks a two-pulley hoisting system. The rope between the two tied loops would of course slacken as you draw the bundle tight. Have I got it?
You have it.I'm thankful for the loyal opposition! It's hard to learn much from those who simply agree with you.
I try to be helpful without being encouraging.
A good knot is one were the rope pulls against it self to tighten the grip of the knot, but when that pull is no longer there the rope can be untied easily. That is the difference between a "square knot" and a "granny knot". The granny knot is extremely hard to untie, even when tied for a short period of time, if it can be untied at all. The square knot can be untied even when it is used on a cloths line rope that has been in the weather for many years.
Two of the best sources that I know of for knots is:
The Boy Scouts Handbook
The Navy Jackets Manual
Names of knots can differ between one trade to another and one part of the world to another. But it could be the same knot that every one is talking about.
What I know as a "truckers knot" is this:
I fasten one end using a bowline(sp) knot (you will find it in the BSH) then thread it threw and around what ever. When I go to tighten it all down I go to a part in the middle of the rope and make a loop, then using the knot that was pictured in an earlier post (this knot used in this way is not a good knot) I use that loop to tie a loop in the rope. Then I thread the free end threw the loop and pull it until I have the desired tightness. When I have what I want I use a "sheep bend" (BSH or NJM) to tie it off.
Dane
I will always be a beginner as I am always learning.
I fasten one end using a bowline(sp) knot
I can still remember Chief Warrant Officer Potter ("you can call me Chief Warrant Officer, you can call me Mister Potter, BUT DO NOT CALL ME CHIEF!!!) in our basic seamanship class at Kings Point.
"There are no holes, there are no trees, AND THERE ARE NO RABBITS at sea. You WILL tie the bowline [pronounced "bow-lynn"] correctly!"
Marine Engineer
bowlynn is one of those magical mystery knots. For dozens of times, you cannot seem to get it right, no matter what...
Then, once you get it nailed ( or bent) down right, You can't figure out how NOT to tie it right
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
they showed us how, if we fell overboard, and someone tossed us a rope, how to tie it to save our lives. Assume you're right handed, you grab the rope with your right hand, pass it over your left shoulder and around your back, then tie the bowline onehanded with the right hand, while holding the rope, ahead of the knot, with your left hand.What's good about the bowline in this situation is that it won't slip, so it won't, under tension, squeeze you to death.Marine Engineer
Knot geek 2 chiming in - truckers hitch is the way to go - two "overhands on a bight" - one on the end of the rope, one in the middle, and mechanical advantage like explained before, tied off with half hitches. Loop the rope before the first hitch and you have a quick release for later...
But if you want to untie it later, the cadillac of knots for the middle of the return rope is the butterfly hitch - check any climbers knot source - and a regular bowline for the end of the rope. Once you learn these you are set.
BTW I did a knot tying lesson with my 8 year old last weekend by the campfire - it was a great time - as though he were learning the hidden secrets of manhood - i love doing things like this with my son!
Knot nerd to knot geek:
Hey Brian, my kid and I also tied knots together. By the time she was ten y.o. (bragging alert) she could tie her own prussik knots and use these to climb unaided out of vertical pits (caving). We were both proud of this achievement.
BTW, I too love the butterfly...learned two ways to fashion it, same great knot. You're right, excellent for a trucker's hitch application.
The guy that taught me how to tie knots was left handed. I am right handed. Yep I tie my knots using my left hand still 35 years later. My wife never could figure that one out.
I bet you learned how to make a bows'ns chair too. Scrap, scrap...paint, paint
DaneI will always be a beginner as I am always learning.
I bet you learned how to make a bows'ns chair too. Scrap, scrap...paint, paint
negative on the Bosun's chair. I ain't no onionhead. Would've like to have learned that one, but ... those deckies keep their secrets.
Marine Engineer
I tie the one handed bowline to wow the Boy Scouts. Lots of fun, that.Andy Engel
Senior editor, Fine Woodworking magazine
Other people can talk about how to expand the destiny of mankind. I just want to talk about how to fix a motorcycle. I think that what I have to say has more lasting value. --Robert M. Pirsig
Great technique, the one-handed tieoff.
Hopefully, they don't go full speed ahead or drop depth charges while you're bowlined in. ;)
"The granny knot is extremely hard to untie"
I agree that some good knots have the characteristic that they are easy to untie after being loaded. As long as they don't untie themselves on their own, or when the load or tension is momentarily released.
Here are some examples:
The clove hitch, a favourite of mariners, is a good example of an excellent knot that is relatively easy to work loose once the load is off it; however, it may also loosen itself if the load is momentarily released, unless backed off.
The figure-8 loop is very stable in all circumstances, and is easier to untie than the overhand loop.
However, not all good knots are easy to untie after being loaded.
The bowline, rightly favoured by mariners, is difficult to untie after it has been loaded. Taking two or three wraps first, for example around a bollard or yard-arm, then tying the bowline is a good way to make it easier to untie.
The grapevine knot is always difficult to untie after being loaded, which is why in caving applications the double-back figure-8 is preferred to tie two long ropes together when needed to rappel into a particularly deep pit.
WRT the granny knot, I find that it usually slips on itself very easily. This happens because the granny's coils do not exercise enough friction on each other, nor do they intersect each other at a sharp enough angle to pinch-lock against one another.
The reef knot holds tight, but it can easily flip itself open if one of the loose ends catches, best to use it to tie off parcels that you don't care about.
I would never rely on a granny knot or reef knot for safety or reliability.
Bottom line in knot theory is that a combination of friction from parallel forms and pinching from cross-over forms is what makes them reliable. All knots should also be backed off by one or two half hitches, where safety is at issue.
Knot-nerd
Pierre,
>>The bowline, rightly favoured by mariners, is difficult to untie after it has been loaded.
That's strange. The knot I know as a bowline is the knot I use when I want to be sure that I can untie it after a load. I even use it with logging chain.
SamT
Sam, I'm not dissing the bowline. I love it, and believe it to be one of the safest knots. I've dropped 300' pits relying on it to keep my rope anchored.
The bowline I know is the bowline learned at Scouts. Used it later in sailing. Same knot is used in caving, which is a wet muddy environment. Maybe it's the wet that makes it so persistent.
Sam, do you tie yours with a special variation, like doubling up the 'rabbit hole'? Sorry 'bout that bunny hole Marine Engineer. ;)
Edited 4/17/2005 11:33 pm ET by Pierre1
Sam, do you tie yours with a special variation, like doubling up the 'rabbit hole'? Sorry 'bout that bunny hole Marine Engineer. ;)
no problem, as long as that bunny remains a landlubber.
Marine Engineer
Same here. back bend ####bowline and it comes right apart.
and a granny will untie itself under load
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
Sam - when I speak of the bowline being difficult to untie after it's been loaded... I mean LOADED:
Such as pulling a vehicule out of a ditch, or adult cavers rapelling down - and jumarring up - deep pits. The load on the bowline includes the yo-yo-ing motion of the humans on the rope, which does a good job of setting the knot. So does a 30' sailboat pulling at it's moorings all week.
Such loads far exceed the pressures exerted on a bowline tensioned by a load of lumber on a roof rack - unless you run your truck into a concrete wall.
knot nerd
Pierre,
Oh.
I've only used it for things like pulling tractors out of the mud and breaking palm trees off at the stump.
Course, I used a chain for those heavy loads. A chain is a rather high friction 'rope' that doesn't slip too often, eh?
If I have to use a slippery line with a high or jerky load, I might bight the bitter end before tucking it in the last, ahem, rabbit hole. Mostly I don't use alpiners line for anything as I'm not a climber. I prefer a stiffer line with a high coeficient of friction. Makes knots a lot less likely to slip and easier to untie.
SAmT
Sweet. No end to the variables is there.
Your point is well taken and made.
You must remember that each knot was designed for a purpose. Using the wrong knot for the purpose can lead to trouble, as Marine Engineer pointed out.
DaneI will always be a beginner as I am always learning.
I'm a big fan of the "Hatchet knot"
You tie, and twist, and pull over, and go under, until it's good and tight. Then it takes a hatchet to untie it.
The bitterness of poor quality remains long after low pricing is forgotten.