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My two cents worth…My Policy…
Whenever…a bid or pricing has to do with the sale of a house…I see it as a service. I will provide the client with viable information for a fee. I dont get bound up AT ALL…on the phone…with someone running a fishing expedition. If the client is serious about information and pricing, I can meet them, tell them of the service I am providing, what it will cost, and then find out..whether they wish to proceed. Weeds out the looky loos…….and doesnt waste..my very precious time.
DN
Replies
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Stephen,
I think you're doing the right thing with these "non-customers" by doing what you're doing and telling them the truth. So what if they get %^&$@# off. From my personal experience in hiring different tradespeople in the renovation of my old house, I admire/appreciate people who call back and say they can't do my job because it's too small or they are too busy. A few years back, I had to have my furnace replaced. One heating company came out, looked at my headroom in my basement (low) and stated he will not bid on my job because he didn't think his equipment would work in my situation. He told the truth and didn't attempt to BS me. This guy/company gets a great referral from me when people I work with ask me about heating companies to obtain bids for their homes.
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But here "the truth" is "you're a jerk." Only the most disciplined owners would give referrals based on -that- truth.
The truth? You can't handle the truth! (Nicholson)
*Stephen,If you tell that secret again we'll be forced to take away your cell phone & voice mail (don't answer it on the boat, they can hear the motor).
*Stephen, people really don’t even i ask for references? Wow... Around here most of the tradespeople carry a brag book, a notebook full of photographs and letters, kind of like what you mentioned. I must admit, though, that most of the people I’ve hired have all ready been recommended by someone whose judgment I trust. And you are absolutely on the money about never knowing where an estimate or phone call will lead; some of my best jobs (and recommendations!) resulted from the most unlikely leads/calls, plus I’ve made some great friends. So much for conventional wisdom! I still believe in the old saying, “The customer is always right,” even though I may say it through gritted teeth sometimes. b Cookies from a TUBE?!? Me?! What nerve! Of course they’re from a tube, silly! Unless I’ve had time to make the real thing, which, I’m ashamed to say, is rare these days. Actually, the dough from the fake kind is good for PMS munchies, heh. As for that homeowner that made the coffee cake, does she need any decorative painting done? And, yeah, right, your wife doesn’t know where you are. We just pretend we don’t know, ‘cause it builds up your egos if you think you can pull one over on us once in a while. ; )Andrew, paragraphs? Huh? Have you ever heard a woman talk in paragraphs? We don’t pause for nothin’! Anyway, here’s your paragraph. ; ) Actually, most of the lawyers I know do surprising things in their spare time: art, poetry, carpentry, etc. Lawyers, as you know, spend most of their time reading, so they have to do something totally different in order to keep their sanity (I use “sanity” loosely here). And, no, I did not marry my plumber, but I did marry someone who does i not believe in “do-it-your-own-self,” thank goodness! My lawyer ex did not believe in hiring contractors unless it was absolutely necessary, which was never; I usually went ahead and hired them, though, before he killed himself: climbed on the slate roof of our 2-story house with a rope around his waist, which he tied to the chimney (lucky he broke only slates); installed a new breaker box, to replace the old fuse box, then “added a few outlets” around the house, two of which melted plugs - I don’t even like to i think about this one - I went to the Depot and bought lots of extra smoke detectors and fire extinguishers; caught his shirt in a circular saw and didn’t realize it until it almost ate his... well, you get the idea. Oddly enough, his carpentry was quite good, when he finally finished. Last I heard, he talked his new wife into buying an old house that “needs a little work.” The only thing that I’m still mad about is that he took most of the tools, including (but not limited to!) the Makita reciprocating saw, the belt sander, the circular saw, and one of MY really nice aluminum ladders - he always used old wooden ones, picked up at garage sales, one of which he was climbing down, when all the rungs broke, one right after the other, and... but I do go on. : )
*It did help. you were the first (i think) to mention the "wide range" method. I have used that one myself. It is a legeitimate statement, that leads into a qualifying grilling by youBlue
*I always kill the motor proir to answering!Blue
*Geez, your ex's problem was that he was/(is?) CHEAP. I'm ... frugal ... but I try to be sensible about it. When we moved down from Chicago, I argued we should do it ourselves (once again) and rented a truck plus friendly lunkheads on both ends to load and unload it. To prove I wasn't cheap to my wife, we donated the $2500 we saved to charity. (And deducted it.)I've tried hard to good work, these days I just push to work FASTER. Without losing too many shirts. Hey, his taking the tools gave you an opportunity to upgrade, right?Efficient, not cheap, and all IIIA fiberglass ladders, Andrew
*Flimsy ladders! You aren't doing carpenter work are you?Blue
*Steven, I would suggest that a lot of what you said could be concisely expressed to the people calling, to get you both on the same page. Then you could tell them you'd gladly make an estimate, for a fee. Make sure you can explain that it is an estimate, not a bid. (You'd be happy to do a bid also, but for a higher fee.) By that time you should have some feel for who you're dealing with, and how to clearly make the point that you have the expertise they are looking for, and intend to get paid for it. This can be done pleasently, briskly & firmly. (I keep telling myself) And it can be made to sound like "yes", which is what people want to hear. I also agree strongly with all the comments about how you never know what a cold call will turn into.
*fiyo,Good post, but a paragraph return every couple hundred words or so would help the eyestrain at this end.Steve
*Stephen,Hit that return key every now and then. Helps those of us with eyes over forty keep from going blind.Thanks,Steve
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You mean 1A, I hope.
*
ROB REHM, You are right, that was careless of me to let that little secret out of the bag.I am just glad that I didn't explain to andrew that "your materials are on back order" really means " WE spent your deposit check on lap dances at the stripper bar". Uh,ooops. Forget I said that. Stephen
*Once had to rip out a brand new tile job in a large kitchen--the maid had used some type of petroleum solvent to clean the tile.This was right after New Years Eve. The lady of the house had made all this food for her party, but none of the guests ate much. She was pissed!When we started the job, the lady would lay out plywood on the pool table. She put out all her uneaten food from the party. Each morning, she would say, "I'm going to my tennis lesson now, when I return, I better not find any food left".We were forced to eat creme puffs, turkey or ham sandwiches, brie with water crackers, different cheeses, homemade pies, etc. Literally, she would threaten us if we didn't eat.For 5 days it was, set one tile, eat a creme puff, set another tile, make a sandwich and down it with yet another glass of champagne. %-)
*Oops. I think I got the numbering backwards. :)
*One thing I wouldn't give the carpenters who did some work for us was alcohol. My wife offered them a beer, and I said no way on my clock! Y'all are careless enough with the nail guns as it is! And we were paying these guys WELL. They seemed to like the ginger ale.
*SteveYou too(o) eh???I turned down the brightness on my monitor as well. . . I have a theory that sean and the gang are trying to i glareus away with the whiter than white background.cheers/beers-Patrick
*I guess the Mac was the first to do the "page white" background and so I'm used to it. I hated it at first, to be honest. Try fiddling with the monitor contrast, too.
*Cripes. . . according to sean if it wasn't for you mac heads we'd still be gazing at calming "Sierra Beige". Whaddarip!!!
*? What did we do ?
*i "? What did we do ?"Typical Mac whining!!! Go over to the folder on "using Breaktime" and read Sean's pathetic excuse that the reason the board background was changed toi whiter-than-whitewas to accomodate users ofb older Macswho couldn't see some stuff. . . How the hell did they know what they were missing????Lookin for a reason to rant-Patrick
*Lets get the easy on the eyes background back!!!!Sean's scared of our nailguns he says...maybe we could e-nail him into a corner on this...Near the nails guns near the stream,Joilin up my enailer...
*Sounds like a boogerin' job forb JACK 'N BLUE
*Must be an older Mac than this one.Seriously, turn down your contrast. If you really want it your way, tell Netscape under Preferences ... Apearance/Colors to do the background in the color you want. Be sure to check "Always use my colors, overriding page."Copycat IE probably has a similar option.
*AndrewI had already played with my monitor's brightness and contrast, but other family users keep adjusting it to their needs, so your Netscape, which I use, suggestion is timely.Thanx
*Consider also setting up "user profiles" or whatever they call them -- then you can launch Netscape with your preferences active regardless of what other people do.I'm not a Netscape promoter, but have grudgingly learned about it. My computer is MS-free. NS 4.5.1 is cleaner that it's been in a while. Mac users, try iCab, a German browser that is runs happily in about 3 Mb of memory. They have it free at download.com. A curiosity, maybe more.
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A great way to avoid giving dead end estamates is to tell the customer that you have a waiting list and it will be at least a couple of weeks before you can even look at the job. To be honest, keep a list and schedule only certain times to look at jobs. If it is a good job, they will wait. Otherwise, it weeds out the dead ends.
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Randall, I used that policy awhile back. I quit doing so because I found it was a tool to create holes in my schedule, something I wish to avoid. It does have merit, though.
*I'm in, what do I gotta booger?Blue
*Lordy, Blue, it wasn'ti mewho was using those cheesy ladders! : 0On another note: whati isit between contractors and their customers? If you question them, or their work, you'd think they were getting the worst kind of personal insult! I try to stay out of the way, and respect the work, and all it entails, but sometimes I feel like I'm walking on eggshells! There's a book that's supposed to remedy this; can't think of the title, but both the contractor and the customer are supposed to read it. People who have used the method swear by it, say it makes things go much smoother.I'm curious: What is the going rate for painting an old 2-story frame house, 2 colors, 65 ft. long, 20 feet wide, about 35 windows and doors, and a wrap-around porch on the front and halfway around the side? (I know, I still gotta call for estimates, but I'm being lazy).Opinions on the following, anyone? My husband kept borrowing my Estwing, so I went out to buy him hisi ownhammer (he says, "What do we need two hammers for?"), and I happened to pick up a Plumb brand hammer. Well, I gave him the Estwing and kept the Plumb for myself - both were the same type and size - and I absolutely love the Plumb! Am I crazy or are these hammersi supposedto be good?And one last question: How do you guys add graphics to your posts? I asked Sean, but haven't gotten a reply yet. I tried copying and pasting, but it didn't work...Thanks!
*AndrewI've been experimenting with the background colour preferences in Netscape but can't get near that coulour of the old board, so settled for a lessi glareyoff white. . . it occured to me whilst I was playin that I was then influencing the background for every other page I would ever look at which isn't necessay. . .. would be easier if we could just pick a background colour for Breaktime, or if they would revert!!!
*fiyo,Go to the folder "Breaktime: Help Using, Ideas for Improving", then to the "How do you "attach" a diagram or photo to post" thread. That should get you started.Rich Beckman
*Adding a graphic is easy; the only problem is that you need to provide a home for the actual picture elsewhere on the Web. Sean says we will soon be able to send them to Breaktime just like messages.I haven't used my neighbor's Estwing yet, but do like the two Plumb hammers I have (one a waffle framer, the other a 20-oz. smooth). Another smaller one I despise. I threw away an old hammer than someone left behind -- i couldn't make it hit anything right! Balance must be a sensitive individual thing, and I will try the Estwing, though i wonder how much shock all metal sends to your arm? Currently my favorite hammers are a Paslode and Senco.Talking to contractors is sometimes hard. Some just aren't people-persons. Ever ask a doctor questions and get an irritated response, like you were questioning their judgment or trying to cheap out? Same effect. Not people I do business with, but I have more choices for doctors than contractors!-- AD
*Agreed -- personally I'd like more ready access to the browser controls. NS is unfortunate bloatware, and IE is not exactly sleek. I'm fiddling with a freeware preview German browser, iCab, than only uses 3 Mb of RAM and is surprisingly capable -- it is ridiculous that I have 64 Mb and feel claustrophobic. but I digress...Seriously, if your monitor has front controls, just turn the contrast down.
*Fiyo, I'm curious about this book you mention. Is it "House", by Tracy Kidder (about building a house from the perspective of the builders, the architect , and the customers)?
*Agreed -- personally I'd like more ready access to the browser controls. NS is unfortunate bloatware, and IE is not exactly sleek. I'm fiddling with a freeware preview German browser, iCab, than only uses 3 Mb of RAM and is surprisingly capable -- it is ridiculous that I have 64 Mb and feel claustrophobic. but I digress...Seriously, if your monitor has front controls, just turn the contrast down.
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fiyo,
Welcome to the madhouse! Come on up (out - whatever)to the gabfest - I'm gonna need some help slapping these boys around and drinking their beer. :-) I think we are working on the same wavelength, if not the same budget (student, not lawyer). At least mine is the ivory tower type so all the tools are MINE, ALL MINE (insert demonic laughter here) if he ever gets the old heave ho.
I like my cookie dough in ice cream, with rum sauce. Of course there is nothing better for PMS than a cold beer, hot tub, and someone else making dinner...
*
Painting....$3500 will be repectable low bid.
Near the stream,
J
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there are two quick ways to end the conversation. A) say you have a 500 dollar fee to give a roofing estimate (it will be applied to the cost of the roof if they hire you). B) quote them a silly high price (such as $40,000). If they complain, say you have not seen the house, but it they wish to pay your estimate fee (see A above) you would be glad revise your estimate.
*
Andrew
Had to re-adjust my background prefernces in Ns.back to default settings because it was really messing up the look of some other sites. . .. back to playing with the contrast and brightness on the monitor. . . it doesn't take long to get spoiled by the
i concept
of user variable preferences. . ..
b NOT!!!
*Plain and simple. I offer free VERBAL estimates. I charge 25 bucks for written estimates. The 25 bucks is applied to a signed contract if that comes about. The reason is twofold. First of all, too many people need insurance quotes so they can get a check and do it themselves and secondly, if I had to write out every estimate I do, I would spend a day every week doing so. Sometimes I even give estimates over the phone for those who are just shopping.I spend an incredible amount of time doing estimates written or not. Just one of the many wonderful aspects of being self-employed. Tomorrow I have estimates to go to from 8 AM to 3 pm steady. One per hour. Luckily they are all in relatively the same area (within 10 miles of each other) which doesnt happen very often at all.BTW, I need to send a bill for 25 bucks to the last guy who needed a written estimate. The bum hasn't sent me the dough yet.Pete Draganic
*You're too kind! Go for $50 if you're going to do the insurance adjuster's job.
*I threw in the towel too. Fortunately my eyes are used to lots of abuse.
*Define "ivory tower type" -- are we talking attitude or profession? What's your common denominator?Just being nosy.... and a bit ivory myself...
*I'm sailing.....
*Thanks, Rich, Andrew, & AJ! Andrew, the doctor analogy was great! By the way, should lawyers be included with doctors and contractors? ; ) Re the hammer thing: before I knew anything more about a hammer than that it could drive nails, and oftentimes my thumb, I bought a big, ol' heavy hammer; I got used to it and now that's all I use. I now have enough muscle in my right arm to throw a mean punch in a bar brawl. AJ, a bid like that would be an absolute dream! By the way, have you started work yet? ; ) Adrian, nope, not House; I will try to find out. Seems like it was mentioned in Renovation, by... damn, can't remember the author.Just kidding about the bar brawls. Ladies' luncheons - now, that's different...Patty
*Patty,Now I'm curious about my paint estimate....How much do you think or have you been told to expect as a figure to paint your home?...How bad is the existing paint, what percentage will need scraping to bare wood, how much sanding do you want to feather scraped areas, near entries and eyes or do you want the whole house perfect like it was newly built.Fill me in if you'd like....Available to paint worldwide after September.Near the stream,J
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Andrew,
Good for you for helping your neighbor. You don't have to justify your kindness as preserving your land values. It is just the right thing to do. For all that I continued the debate about what makes communities, and if it can be "designed", it is the PEOPLE who make the community in the end. Whether you like in a new or old neighborhood, tract, or enclave, you have made your place a little better.
Kudos,Lisa
*
I was kidding anyway -- I wanted to do it as a favor, but like many older folks I've known he didn't want any handouts. He insists he's going to pay me, too -- any idea what to ask that's cheap but not offensive? For 8 shutters out-of-pocket and materials come to about $170 ... another neighbor donated the paint because she wanted to pick the color! (The client said, sure!) My other problem is that a casual look around his house turned up a dozen things wrong, both aesthetics and safety .. not sure what to do. He didn't believe me that he needs a new service entrance cable, his must be 30 years old and is so UV degraded you can see through it.
I once found myself in the left turn lane behind a stalled car with this elderly fellow, who was waving people to go around from his seat. I walked up, saw he was on oxygen through a nasal cannula, and asked if he needed any help and he said, young man I'll give you $5 if you push me to that gas station over there. So I pushed his car across the intersection -- surprisingly no one ran me down, this was in L.A. I said forget the $5 and he declred, I said I was going to $5 and dammit I'm going to pay you. I took it.
*AndrewIf you do a decent job you should charge a decent rate. . . after all your taking food out of the mouths of all your local carpenters, G.C.'s and handymen you scumsucking slimeball do-gooder!!!On a lighter note (pun intended)i ". . . if you can see through his service entrance cable. . . "he must be way ahead of you cause he's obviously using fibre-optics.As far as the old coot with the stalled car is concerned I'd a told him that you don't risk your life to push cars for a lousy $5., so fork over some decent coin or F-off and die.And you probably thought all Canadians were sooo polite!!!Gettin giddy with the prospect of Spring!!!
*Oh, you're so hardened by all that cold. Come to America where it's nice and warm. On second thought, stay away, we got too many of you durned Canadians as it is!!!P.S. Not taking work away from anyone -- the work wouldn't exist if I hadn't volunteered. Actually, there a lot more work than workers around here.
*Lisa, Lisa, how did Ii evermiss your post?! What you need to try is some homemade bread pudding with rum sauce that'll knock you down before you finish eating the stuff! I agree with your PMS cure, but shouldn't someone else be cooking dinneri allthe time? You got to train that boy, hon! : 0AJ, A year ago I got a bid for 8,000., which included reglazing the windows and repairing/replacing the gutters (standard with painting in this area). Yep, it definitely needs sanding, maybe 20% (or less) to bare wood. No, it doesn't have to be perfect, but the last paint job lasted perfectly for 12 years, which is unusual in these parts; nowi thatI liked! The less often I have to put out large sums of money, the better! Of course, I want it to look gorgeous - is that too much to ask? ; ) I can e-mail you a picture of the house, if you want. Can't show it here, since I haven't figured out how to upload it to a non-existent web site, heh. Are you really going to travel to work after Sept.? Thanks! Patty
*Patty,You're killing me with the PMS talk since I'm a 40+ batchelor and don't here that talk too much! I guess I move on to the next wonderful partner before they dare yak of such things...To Travel and fun (work) on the road...yes I love to do it more as much as getting home after...It's a great way to see and really learn a little about others on the planet...Even the last gig in Jersey was fun to be back in the old lumber yard and breakfast diner joking it up with the owners and staff more freely than the locals even do...I guess I have less to lose, and that makes me willing to risk more.send the email of your home...Since you added the shutters and more sanding, I'm figuring $6000 max.Have a great Easter...Near the stream, doing tennis courts at blazing speed,J
*A.J., sorry about all the wimmin talk - I promise to cease and desist! : )Pictures of my abode are on the way!Patty
*
Yesterday I had a phone conversation that I have at least 4 times a week. It always goes something like this....potential customer is buying or selling a house,and would like an inspection and an estimate of what a new roof will cost.I reply that I don't give estimates on houses that are being sold because out of the hundreds of estimates I have given on homes being sold, I have NEVER EVER got a roofing job out of them.The" customer" then replies "well that doesn't say much for your public relations does it?"I then explain that the vast majority of my customers have lived in their homes for years and plan to continue living there for years. Price is not the primary determining factor with them,they are looking for neat,clean,long lasting roofs and pricing is secondary.Home sellers are generally looking for the lowest cost roof(which my roof will not be) and home buyers are looking for a very high estimate which they can use to dicker with the seller and hopefully reduce the sales price(then when it comes time to actually roof the house the buyer will take my "high" estimate and shop it around till he finds a lower price contractor.AT this point the the caller is ,bent out of shape, and says "I would never do business with someone like you " and they slam the phone down. So my question is how do I avoid upsetting these people?I fully understand the motivation of buyers and sellers,but I have no intention of subsidizing there transactions with free estimates that yeild zero return to me.If I actually did give these estimates, it would cost me about 5 hours a week( or at least a full month of working time each year)I am not trying to be rude to anyone,just efficient. So contractors,how do you handle similar situations? Homeowners, How can I politely refuse you without starting WWIII. Thanks for the help, Stephen
*Your not refusing an estimate, your refusing an opinion. Estimates are done with a reasonable expectation of work. Here you have no reasonable expectation other than offering an opinion based on your experience and that is a service. A service that the industry provides at a cost to the consumer.The request is impolite and unreasonable. To refuse is to be expected.
*You must be able to give a ballpark figure on a roof. Ask a few questions, size of house, number of layers of shingle on the roof, steepness of roof, no. of valleys, chimneys?, things like that. And then give a rough estimate that is high enough that you don't get hurt. If you normally get $85 a square, tell them $100 or more. Explain that is is just a rough number, and could change based on other factors like bad sheathing etc. but it should give you something to go on. Thank them for the call and hang up.I know easier said than done.
*I have the same problem, and am still wondering about that. Last week an old couple spent 3 1/2 hrs. discussing a new addition with me, they were practically choosing the paint colour (I had to keep bringing them back to the subject at hand, that all I needed to know was the design, not the tiny little specifics)... so now this week they think maybe they'll use the money to do some work on their basement, or maybe pay some bills off, or probably take a vacation to Mexico for all I know. I found this out by making a follow-up phone call just before I was about to spend another 3 hours or so pricing it all out. So I guess the follow up - pre-estimating phone call will be part of my routine from now on. Also, wondering about maybe ballparking estimates by figuring just the labour, and not spending any time working out the materials, since I have a pretty good idea of what the ratio should be. Does anyone else have a good method for doing quick estimates? But to get back to the subject at hand, I think what we need to do is a bit of creative bullshit... First, have intake forms with qualifying questions, get the name, phone # and address first thing. Ask a few questions, get a feel for what they want. If it's not worth your time, say "You need to have an estimate right away? I'm so sorry, but we're all booked up right now, we're unable to take on any new work at the moment, but if you can wait until (hell freezes over)...." Then follow up with a letter thanking them so much for calling (and not wasting your time) and appologizing profusely for not being able to help them out at this time, but call back (when they have a real job)!
*Hi Steve - I think you're giving them more info than they need. Maybe you could either tell them you're too busy and not taking new customers, or you tell them it will be a hundred bucks to have you come out and price it, refundable if you get the job.Lee
*Had a great, but wordy post all ready to send--but, NOOOOOO! Joe F is looking over my shoulder.My first thoughts are that you are giving too much information. That Ed said this too means we could be onto something here.You are putting yourself in the middle of someone elses problem. Seems you want the work, but resent getting beatup before you even get the job. This is what you should do: tell 'em a unit price--remember, this is retail--with a margin above the usual stuff. Don't be greedy, but be realistic. This is first phone call. Don't even think of going out there at this point.If a follow-up reveals they are interested in you, tell them there is a one time "consulting fee" of $75(or whatever you think is appropriate). This will show you are a professional and expect to be compensated for your services. Tell 'em this fee will be deducted from job when you get the job. Most will see this as reasonable. If they are scared-off, congratulate yourself for avoiding those customers.
*Tell them, that they are in luck. You are currently offering a special of 20% off. Charge them $100 estimate fee that can be applied to the job. Give them a 20% off coupon and bid 25% high. They'll think they are getting a bargan.
*Stephen, there is such a thing as too much honesty. Your analysis of real estate sounds dead-on (i've several times overheard people at Home Depot telling the clerk "we're selling the house, so we want to do it as cheap as possible" grr.) but you don't have to share it. I like the suggestions above of offering a "safe" figure. A lot of people think it's OK to get estimates where you have no intention of hiring the person, unfortunately. I think that's wrong, like going for test drives at a car dealership for the heck of it.Tire kickers -- don't kick 'em back.
*The giving of the ball park is a bad idea.Blue
*Stephen, you have properly identified the bane of salespersons, un fortunatly you are the sales agent and these types of requests are part of the territory. Since you are also the man in the field, you have to manage your time. You either have to hire a salesperson, and chase these leads, or prequalify them on the phone.Maybe you can ask them "if I come out and measure the roof, and give you a satisfactory price, delivering a satisfactory product, is there any reason that I can't expect sighned contract?"This might lead to a little more honesty regarding the true motivation about the request.Blue
*Wouldn't the caller wise up and start lying? Or does it just need to be pointed out to these folks (gently) that they're trying to profit from your unpaid labor?Ballparks are a bit risky -- but do stress that it is not an offer to actually do the work so they can't hold you to it (or think they can hold you to it).I like a "consulting fee," but it should be reasonable and good faith. I wouldn't agree to fork over $75, even if it is deductible from the job cost, to someone i might decide is a crook when I meet with him -- my crook-o-meter doesn't always work over the phone. Say, $25? Does it take more than an hour, assuming you're not quoting Hearst Castle?
*My two cents worth...My Policy...Whenever...a bid or pricing has to do with the sale of a house...I see it as a service. I will provide the client with viable information for a fee. I dont get bound up AT ALL...on the phone...with someone running a fishing expedition. If the client is serious about information and pricing, I can meet them, tell them of the service I am providing, what it will cost, and then find out..whether they wish to proceed. Weeds out the looky loos.......and doesnt waste..my very precious time.DN
*How aboutThank you for your call but right now I am very busy and rather than lead you along I could not posibly get to your estimate for at least two or three weeks. Let me give you couple of names of other roofers who may not be so busy. Let your competition deal with them.
*The people who pointed out that I am giving out more information than I need to seem to be right on the money.( I do run on at the mouth , as you may have noticed).As soon as I recognize the situation I should just say "I'm sorry,but we won't be able to help you with that.We have a long standing policy of not estimating roofs on houses that are in the process of being bought or sold but thank's for your call and have a good afternoon"THEN HANG UP THE PHONE. This way I am not drawn into a long coversation in which I am "forced " to justify my policy.I have been using a similar method to brush off landlords for years. (" I'm sorry, but our insurance only covers us on owner occupied,single family dwellings" this is not strictly factual, but it conveys the point without insulting the caller). I guess it is just hard to get used to the idea that honesty isn't always the best policy.After all ,I don't tell them how much I make off of each roof either. any how thanks for pointing out the obvious , which had completly escaped me. Good Luck, Stephen
*You avoid landlords for the same reason as house sellers?A renter all my life, ad
*Andrew,From many of your (informative and enjoyable) posts, I have gathered that you have done and are doing a lot of work on the house you are currantly living in. PLEASE say that you do OWN this house.Always amazed at the free labor (and materials) renters will give to landlords.Rich Beckman
*Yes. First place I've owned, and my mom never owned one herself. I've moved maybe 20 times and was reluctant to put much time into fixing things. Plus my skills were horrible, and i didn't even know it.Boy, it's been an education. I'm fortunate to speak to so many pros, more than I'll ever meet in a lifetime. My new neighbor, also a lawyer, is without a clue in the construction biz. A nice guy, he just paid $500 (LABOR ONLY) to have six feet of no-frills butcher-block countertop installed because he couldn't get anyone else to do it (business is booming) and "was afraid to mess with the plumbing." Heck, it's already PVC. The house has a lot of problems in design and upkeep. I think I might get some pickup work there... (PLEASE call me for the next countertop!)I have started to do some free work, now for an older neighbor whose house looks abandoned (I do have to look at it, after all) and soon for Habitat. I would be pleased if I could use some of what I've learned about the trades in my legal work, in a beneficial way.
*andrew,If you listen to yourself at all it's time to hang up your law degree and start swinging an Estwing fulltime...And where you live is booming from what I hear...Jump in...I know you won't regret it.Kid in a sandbox full of neat tools,Jack
*Andrew,please believe I am not trying to be snotty or an ego maniac with this explanation. I avoid landlords like the plague because I have found they are generally not what I would call "stand up guys".In addition,price is their only deciding factor. They will want the work done yesterday, in a driving rainstorm, and then make you wait 3 weeks till they collect the next rent checks to pay your bill.Now before all of the "exceptions" to this description enter the fray,let me just say that I am sure you are all fine people,honest as the day is long,and a credit to your profession.(I just haven't met you in real life)I simply prefer helping honest hard working homeowners who pay in full upon completion,rather than being taken advantage of by people who are looking for something for nothing. As polite and friendly as ever ,Stephen
*Post a pic of your toys, AJ, I'm dying to see. And what part of the ADKs do you live -- was it NY?Actually, I think a lawyer swinging an Estwing could do pretty well in court.This area IS booming -- two teardown "remodels" within a block or so of me, numerous additions (decks, dormers), rehabs (stairs, paint, trim), and other stuff where all I can see from the curb is the contractor's truck. I don't think I could handle working for a different "boss" (homeowner) every few weeks. You guys dream about misusing the Paslode, I'd probably do it. then how would I get paid???
*Yeah, I do know what you mean. the only great landlord I've ever had was the high-rise in Chicago, and we were paying for it, believe me. if something was wrong it would be fixed instantly, even at 3 am -- they had staff repair people, and with 900 units/55 floors there was always work somewhere. I only had one hassle -- there was something with the cold water to the sink -- but then we switched units (and what a nice move it was ... air-conditioned & inside all the way, elevator & no stairs). One thing I guess I can't blame the landlord for was that lightning bolt that hit about 15 stories below us. It deftly slipped betwen the grounding rods and entered this woman's living room, breaching the cold water main. She was not home, and I heard they real real nice to her. All her furniture was shoved against the far wall. We didn't notice it above, but every unit to the ground below was drenched.I'd like to be a landlord in this neighborhood as part of a reno-to-sale (I'm hoping after the stock market flattens real estate will skyrocket) but don't think i could do it. I'd want everything done right and I'd lose money or break even with the taxes, insurance, etc. Can't do the reno for the same reason -- unless prices REALLY go up. Plus I know what pr*cks tenants can be.....
*Tell them your insurance policy only allows you to work on homes ocupied by the current owners, call me when you move in!Blue
*when you here the scenerio tell em it's $75.00 for an estimate refundble upon signing a contract.
*As a homeowner and a big do-it-yourselfer (who's also smart enough to know when it's best to let the pros do the job!), and as one who has worked for a couple of contractors, and, presently, as a (very) small business owner (surface design, which means I do everything from custom-dyeing fabric to painting wall murals to decorative cabinet painting, and then some), I would like to offer so many viewpoints, that you’ll be sorry you ever asked! ; ) First, as a homeowner (of a 100-year-old house, which means I deal with LOTS of contractors and tradespeople), I have a few unwritten rules that help me decide who to hire: 1)SOMEbody had better call me back in a day or two, even if it’s just to say that they got my call. 2)I read up on whatever work I want done, so I can ask intelligent questions - AND so I can tell if someone is b.s.-ing me! 3)I don’t want to hear that they do the “best” work, true or not (everybody makes that claim). 4)I ask for references, or, if possible, to see some of their work (if they offer references before I even ask, that’s a plus). 5)I check those references. 6)I ask about clean up (I’ve had some problems with this). 7)They’d better not even THINK about condescending to me. 8)If it’s a major job, especially a job inside the house, I sometimes take photographs of the area. Not only does this help me explain what I want, it’s also proof of the condition of the area.After they’re hired: 1)Early in the day, I kind of, um, check the work by bringing cold pitchers of freshly-made iced tea to the work area (nope, I don’t climb up on the roof!), then I disappear again, til they’re finished for the day. 2)If I see a problem, I take it up with the boss at the end of the day, with a mini-punch list. If it’s something major, like they’re cutting an opening for a new door in the wrong wall, I simply scream at the top of my lungs. Just kidding, but I do stop them right there (yes, it happened once). 3) For the most part, I leave the crew alone; I know how annoying it can be to have someone looking over your shoulder or checking on you every 30 minutes, though some customers do it simply out of curiosity. 4)If the crew seems pretty cool, I sometimes ask if I can watch in order to learn something, and I promise to stay out of the way. If there’s any hesitation at all, I don’t do it. For this, they get chocolate chip cookies the next day. : ) As a business owner: One solution is to get someone else to handle the I-want-a-rough-estimate people. My husband has offered to make call-backs for me, but, so far, I haven't needed him; it's uncanny how, with time, you develop a "nose" for the, uh, something-for-nothing people and the just-curious shoppers! If you are really no good with people (I can do it, but, boy is it a pain in the butt), hire someone, if only a smart high school student, for a few hours a week - costs money, but it could be the best money you ever spent. The second solution is to tell people that the only way to give them a fair price is for you to come out and actually see what needs to be done, then you will give a them a rough bid (unless the job's so simple - ha - that you are able to give an exact bid); tell them, of course, that you charge $45. (or whatever works for you) for this service, which will be applied to the price of the job - DON’T over-explain or apologize; it IS a service - and, to keep up that good business karma, you'd better damn well apply it, without padding the price! : ) You will be amazed at how many people this weeds out! Also, you can plan ahead on how much time you are willing to spend per ALL estimates, so that you can keep your costs in line. My plumber and my electrician charged me $45. just to walk in my front door, til they realized I was serious customer! And they did NOT apply this fee to my final bill. (Hey, I just took twice as long to say what Rob just said!) Anyway, it's your time, and time is money. Personally, I avoid phone estimates like the plague, or say something like, "We can do a simple wash on 10 linear feet of base cabinets, provided they don't need to be refinished, and you remove all the hardware, and that could run you anywhere from... (here, I give a WIDE price range)." Of course, NObody ever wants anything simple, and I end up going out AND charging for my time. Actually, people seem to expect it. As far as p---ing people off, you never know when that person will talk about you to another person, who might just be the perfect customer! P.R. is a pain, but positively necessary. Sorry this was so long, but I hope it helped. Good luck!
*Hey, Andrew, real story: My ex, who is a lawyer, almost had a heart attack when our plumber gave his estimate. "My God!", he said, "I'm an attorney and you make more than I do!" The plumber then said, "Haven't you heard that old joke, the one where the plumber says, "Yeah, I used to be a lawyer, too, but I wanted to make more money!" Ha ha. Turns out the plumber HAD been a lawyer! (P.S. I kept the plumber and fired the husband.)
*Hey FIYO,asking for references is a pretty good idea. It rarely happens.I doubt a prospect has asked me for a reference more than 6 or 8 times in my entire career. I used to carry a list of safe references with me when giving estimates and no one ever wants to see them. On rare occasions a prospect will want to see a house with the color or style of shingle being considered but that is very rare also.You are also right about returning the phone calls( of course, in the case of the customer who started this thread,I went from "oh wow, I can't believe how quickly you got back to me " to " I would never do business with someone like you" in about 90 seconds.I always return calls because you never know when something the customer decribes as a small repair means $300-400 profit for 6 hours work.A lot of the time when customers are handing me the final check upon completed work, they will say" you know you are the only person who would even give me a price on this job" or "I was really impressed that you came when you said you would come,I figured you meant business and would do what you promised"This has happened on big jobs and little jobs. P.S. are those real chocolate chip cookies, or the fake kind you slice out of a tube? We once did a job where the homeowner had donuts and coffee waiting for us in the morning,brought out a coffe cake WARM from the oven at 10:15, and had a full deli platter and soda's for us at lunch time. She cost me a fortune 'cause the guys spent so much time eating and they were bloated when they tried to work. Keep on baking, Stephen
*A lawyer-plumber. That's a new one. I guess the two trades have a few things in common. Not a bad joke either.... Some lawyers I know are amazed that I like to swing a hammer so much, and not as a hobby. It is awful nice at the end of the day to have built something rather than produced a few pages of writing. It's a Monday morning and I can't wait to get to work. I like both kinds of work, frankly. Maybe two jobs is what i want.Sorry the husband didn't prove up to specs. Hope the plumber was. (Your post sounds like you married him! Myabe I'll put it that way when I tell the anecdote to others...)P.S. You have to hit return twice to get a paragraph break from this software. I'm assuming the first post was supposed to be more than one paragraph?
*What is it with contractors not returning phone calls? I thought voice mail and cell phones were supposed to fix this. My new neighbor, the newbie who paid $500 for a straight kitchen countertop installation (guess what -- no one else would even consider a small job), can't get any masons to call him back about the section of his chimney that is popping out. I gave him the number of a firm that I know is desperate for work -- judging from the four calls over the last year offering to fix my chimney -- while warning him that desperation is a danger sign. If he hires them I think I'll wander over to watch, now that FHB (or was it TOH?) has taught me all about repointing (yeah, right).He's a good potential client, but I don't think enough tradepeople are aware of the lean times that inevitably lie ahead. Plus all these frustrated homeowners are going to figure it's payback time.
*Andrew, you poor misguided soul.Cel phones and voice mail were invented so we could hang out at baseball games and pool halls while our wives think we are at work. Any other use is a mere bonus.Much the same way the internet was invented so that office workers could download free Porn on the job.The information superhighway is mainly being traveled by guys typing with one hand. Good Luck , Stephen