I have a client whose grandparents sold thier land, and the land has been turned into a subdivision. My client (the granddaughter) has bought a lot where her grandparents trailer was located. The lot has two 3’dia. oak trees on it where my client used to play when she was a child.
My problem is that the driveway will pass only 11′ from the base of one of the trees, and the corner of the garage will only be about 20′ from the tree.
I can work on the garage, but I have little choice on the driveway.
Also each tree covers about a 60′ dia. area.
So, what do you all think. When I worked for an arborist a long time ago, his opinion was nothing under the drip line. However, I don’t have that option.
Replies
Try some of these links. I don't have time to preview them for you, but, IIRC, some of them deal with your dillema.
SamT
Agricultural Engineering publications, Explore MU Extension
Forestry publications, Explore MU Extension
http://www.umass.edu/bmatwt/publications/ articles/preserving_trees_during_construction.html
TreeLink The Community Forestry Resource
Is the issue that the driveway will be paved? Can they consider a non-paved drive way? (Like the grass one shown in the latest FHB)
Us Oaks are pretty hardy fellows. We'll live but we don't really like to have our toes stepped on that much.
JLC had an article about saving and building around trees a couple of years ago that would be worth your while.
If you damage a few root hairs near the drip line, you might have to do some extra watering and feeding along there and maybe do a bit of pruning above the next year. the soil compaction where the driveway runs would try to choke out some roots so that is my area of concern. Presuming that the worst traffic and compaction would be during construction, I wonder if it would help to elevate the soil there a couple feet for the duration and then scrape it back down as a final grading measure. most of the compaction would take place in the upper new cover that way.
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Three years after building a new house my huge maple trees were showing fall colors in July. I called an arborist out to look. He said it was disturbance and compaction of the soil around the trees. The house was over 100 feet away, but topsoil was piled at the base of the trees for one winter, then regraded within a few inches of the old elevation. He said such damage as "early color" as he called it typically shows up 3-5 years after construction. Then he asked how long prior was the contruction, and I said, three years.
He said certain trees can be very sensitive to soil compaction, and an elevation change of only 3 inches can kill certain trees. Elderly trees and trees of certain species are more susceptable.
Something else that can damage trees severely is trenching. Digging a narrow trench 15' from a tree might not sound like much, but in effect it would be severing a third of the roots. That can kill a tree.
You'll certainly damage a substantial fraction of the roots by building 20 feet from the tree. And a driveway 11 feet away sounds really bad, too.
Your trees are so valuable, both in land value and sentimental value, I would not hesitate to spend $100 on an arborist and get a professional opinion. It may very well be that building will mean loosing the trees. Your client needs to hear the risk from a professional so she is not disappointed 3 years from now.
I've tried to save trees on many occasions with little success if they are disturbed in any way, even beyond the canopy. The exceptions are some weed trees. The trees may take time to die and falling limbs may damage property or people. After the tree has been cut and the stump ground and filled an indentation will soon develop. Old trees may already have some health issues. I would recommend exhausting design possibilities if you have to do heavy site work around these old souls. A neighbor recently lost his grand old crimson maples to road widening. The trees were cut and new well developed 6"-8" replacements were placed. With good fertilization these new trees will soon be looking spectacular. They are also more disease resistent and nursery developed for optimum growth. Expect to pay some bucks for large specimens and planting.
It's starting to sound like I might be wwrong on this - or we have healthier trees here, except for the white paper birches - all it takes is a wheelbarrow of soil movement to kill them.
I was just thinking that there might be more knowledgeable folks on this Q over the fence at the Fine Gardening forums.
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Roots generally extend to the edge of the outtermost branches. So if you look up and see branches from that tree its probably safe to assume youre standing on roots.
Like the other poster said, disturbing the soil or covering the soil can and will stress a tree. Some trees are able to adapt, some cant.
That driveway will probably kill the tree, not fast but over a few years. That garage might or might not, it depends on the soil type, the grade and your nutrients in the soil. Even so youll probably need to fertilize on the opposite side of the tree from the garage with a root building fertilizer (i think its potasium) this can promote root growth on the opposite side. Dont place it near the garage as the roots can break through and attack your foundation.
depends on the tree species ..
and even each tree can be different.
Call in a specialist.
as mentioned .. the construction involved can and will differ too ...
full basement vs compacted driveway ...
Call in a specialist.
The "general rule" ... anything disturbed under the canopy can lead to disaster ...
BUT ... sucessful construction cane be done within the canopy ...
and construction well away from the tree itself ... depending on the species and root structure ... can kill a healthy tree.
Call in a specialist.
Jeff
Buck Construction Pittsburgh,PA
Artistry in Carpentry
Sounds like you're doing the project so the root system is going to be stressed. Will the tree survive? A firm , maybe. Cut-into the dripline, but only as needed. Avoid compacting the soil outside the constuction footprint in the dripline. Do not cover the root system within the dripline, tree's breath through their roots. Cut back the tree about 1/3, if possable. Water frequently. Good luck.
Another couple of things my arborist said when he looked at my damaged trees: Even trees need water in dry spells. Since their roots are deeper than grass they need a really good soaking to do any good. After watering a while, check with a trowel to see if the water got deep enough. Failing to water a tree already stressed from construction damage can push it over the edge.
I asked about trimming back some branches. He said don't, it's a common misconception, even printed in some gardening books. It's the leaves that make every drop of food for a tree. Cutting back branches to improve the health of a tree is like cutting out part of the stomach and intestines of a malnourished person to perk them up; it's the wrong thing to do. Trim only damaged or dying branches. Fertilizers can help a little bit, but it's just as easy to overdo it, especially with high nitrogen fertilizer.
If you must work around these trees, put up a big fence around it and don't let anything go on in that area -- no vehicles, no material staging, no grading. Nothing but mowing the grass and watering.
It would be interesting to hear what an arborist says when he visits your site.
Several years ago a former partner and myself bought a Big John tree spade from a nursery who told us for best results to cut back the trees. With deciduous we did so with good results. However, the tree was shocked and after 5 years was verily larger than a smaller tree planted at the same time, but you did have an immediate large tree. We did not cut back coniferous trees and planted them even in the summer with few losses as long as you didn't expose their roots to air and watered religiously. So, I'm going on my personal experience for cut back, but would defer to the pro.Never serious, but always right.
Have to absolutely agree the driveway will kill the trees, probably even if it is not paved or even graded, as driving over the soil will damage the roots, most of which are really right under the soil. Does the client really need a driveway and garage!? (I am anti-car, or at least favor almost any tree over a driveway anyway).
I would actually put it to your client that if she wants the driveway the trees go now or later, and she has basically has to choose one or the other.
I bit my tongue (HARD) to not post on the Clearing the Land thread but I must post now.
What kind of oak is it?
Oaks, hickories too, are notorious for hating root disturbance of any kind. 3-5 years after root disturbance especially if no extra babying is done will sound the death knell. No heavy equipment on the roots, don't pile soil on top of the roots-ESPECIALLY if you aren't going to remove it pdq, no material stacking either. A tree roots are concentrated in about the top 6inches to one foot of soil extending AT LEAST out to the dripline (usually even further-in general about 2x the height of the tree).
If your client really wants to save these oaks, put up those bright orange hurricane fence things around both trees AT LEAST as far out as the dripline. Get cardboard or b&w newspapers (all plastic strips removed), lay that down to cover the grass and put about 6 inches of wood chips on top of the cardboard. It will kill the grass, stopping competition between grass and tree roots but there's enough airspace in the chips WHILE their decomposing to not hurt the tree roots. Go to a decent nursery and price a tree the same species and size as the ones she's got and put an ENORMOUS sign on that fence.
YOU BACK OVER THIS FENCE-YOU WILL BE CHARGED $XXX,XXX.XX
People pay BIG BUCKS (at least in my neck of the woods) for a lot w/mature landscaping and big trees. And then they totally screw things up.
Urk, sorry....off my soapbox.
Who says Rhinocoat should be limited to truck beds? Cost estimate for coating the inside of a windowbox should be forthcoming next week.
HEY STOP THAT! <G>
(Biting your tongue, that is.)
We all learn from different points of view, and especially the ones we don't agree with.
Besides, you never know -- some of us who get paid to wipe out everything with life in it would be a whole lot happier if we could find a way to preserve it.
DRC
Besides, you never know -- some of us who get paid to wipe out everything with life in it would be a whole lot happier if we could find a way to preserve it.
Digressing slightly, had a few acres to clear after losing an argument with the customer that it shouldn't be done at all. She found a couple of squashed turtles and was very upset.
I explained that I'd dispatched dozens/hundreds/thousands of small critters in doing her bidding. Seems that before I'd shown up with the heavy machinery, she'd traversed the area telling all the little denizens to find new homes. And the turtles apparently hadn't listened. Left me speechless.
PAHS Designer/Builder- Bury it!
Almost forgot the thread: I once observed an attempt to save a large oak near an addition. Machinery was eschewed in favor of shovels and wheelbarrows. Construction costs rose better than $50k to "protect" the tree. 2 yrs later it was dead.
Edited 4/5/2004 8:07 am ET by VaTom
I found this pic a while back, and thought it was interesting. I never knew tree roots grew this way:
View ImageVote Democrat - it's easier than working
This is definitely a subject where one answer does not fit all questions.
Different trees have different root structures. A lot of what has been already mentioned is in regard to oaks and maples, so I'll add my two cents starting there.
Oaks, in general, send down a single tap root. A monster root that goes straight down into the earth and anchors the tree. Off of this tap root extend secondary and tertiary root systsems, but in general, the root stucture of an oak is more "vertical" than "horizontal". Some other trees with tap roots are white oak, hickory, walnut, and butternut.
Compare that to a Maple. The root of maples are almost all surface roots. They exist, for the most part, within the top 12" to 18" of the surface of the soil, and they extend way out horizontally. In general, the root structure of maples is all "horizontal" with very little "vertical." Very much like the "YES" picture in Boss Hog's previous post. Ever mow grass under a maple and scalp the surface roots? Some other trees with surface or flat roots are maples, birch, and spruce.
Some trees are in between. Kind of a hybrid between Tap and flat. These are trees like pines, basswood, and red oak.
While tree root structures are initially somewhat species-specific, a tree will adapt to it's location. Water table, hard pan, etc. I had an oak that was blown over in a wind storm. Pretty shocked, as those tap roots usually anchor the tree quite well. When the tree tipped the entire root structure was pulled out of the ground. It turned out the oak was growing over a huge chunk of ledge buried about 30" deep. Couldn;t form a tap root, so it modified with laterals. Still, the laterals weren't enough to anchor this 28" oak in heavy winds.
Piffin mentioned birches being knocked dead with a wheelbarrow of soil. Several people have mentioned maples being killed by surface soil compaction. Both these trees have shallow root structures, so they're more susceptible to soil disturbances near or under the drip line.
I have found oaks and hickorys to be more resilient. I tried saving as many as I could when I built my house, figuring if they lived, great...if they died, I could drop them later. I'm glad I left them standing. Lemme see if I can post a few pics...
Pic #1 shows an oak that's about 15' from my house. The foundation hole ended up maybe 11 or 12' from this tree. The crown extends maybe 12-15' over the roofline of my house. The tree survived being assaulted by the house construction. Then, to challenge it again, I built a bluestone patio around the tree. I did a dry patio over compacted stonedust and installed a few hundred feet of perforated pipe under the patio to try to help with water and aeration. Amazingly, the tree survived and is thriving.
Up against the house in containers are eight "paper" and "clump river" birch trees, I just bought them this morning. I'm going to make a "birch path" on the leaf-covered hill in the background of Pic#1. I'd like to mix the trees, but likely the the river birches will go nearer the lake and the paper birches will be towards the house-end of the path. With them being shallow-rooted, I'll locate and construct the path to honor the eventual size of the root structure of those trees.
Pic #2 shows another oak that's in the middle of a parking/turnaround area, Cars have been parked with 3' of this tree since I built my house. I almost took it down last fall when I relocated a part of my driveway. The driveway in the background of the picture was moved laterally, relocated about 12' to the left. This one may come down eventually, just because it's smack dab in the middle of things.
Pic #3 shows about 600' of my drive as it goes out to the street. The tree on the near right is another oak, the ones further in the background to the left and right are hickory. The drive gets regular use with everything from cars to delivery trucks to construction equipment. Several trees along the drive are within 2 feet of the edge of the drive, they are all tap root trees ans they're all doing fine.
The driveway is macadam...about 4" of recycled asphalt spread and compacted, then hot liquid asphalt is sprayed over that, then chip stone is spread and rolled into the whole shebang. It's a hard surface, but maintains a bit of 'rustic' in its look.
If you really traumatize roots, no matter what type of root structure, you can indeed kill the tree. Especially if it's under any stress to begin with. If, however, you infringe on it slowly, trees can sometimes adapt.
Still, I suppose the best advice I can give, which others have already mantioned, is to contact a knowledgeable arborist.
Edit: while I shrunk the file sizes of the pics to about 75-80kb, I forgot to shrink the physical image, or pixel size. Sorry!
Edited 4/5/2004 11:45 am ET by Mongo
thanks for the confirmation. I've seen oaks withstand more abuse than birches, by far.
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
Let us now add Willow (Salix spp) to the discussion. I've only had experience w/Curly Willow but I would extrapolate my CW experience to all willow species.
Curly Willow planted too darn close to the house. A load of dirt was brought up the neighbors driveway and dumped in the backyard, right up against the Curly Willow. Pile o dirt came up about 3ft from the ground against the tree trunk. Do you think the willow died? No of course not. As the dirt was removed and moved to where it was supposed to go, I finally came to the portion (the last part of the pile) resting against the tree's trunk, um, about 1wk or so after the dirt was initially dumped. The willow had sent out roots....3ft off the ground, into the dirt pile.
I wonder if trees/shrubs that root easily will do this also. Shocked the heck out of me.Who says Rhinocoat should be limited to truck beds? Cost estimate for coating the inside of a windowbox should be forthcoming next week.
gee, I wish I had picture for ya too see..my buddy in NC has LOTS of bamboo all over his place...
one day I was there and he says..take a look at that..pointing to a pile of bagged top-soil..a pile 3 and a half feet tall...like 8 bags..
there was a green spike like asparagas poking up smack dab in the center..sticking out 6 inches or so..I figgured somethime rooted in the top bag...NO WAY..it was a bambly-boo shoot coming up through them ALL..incredible..
I looked for a differnt parking spot for my truck..I figgured it may be jacked off the ground by the time I would be ready to leave..View Image
Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
Repairs, Remodeling, Restorations.
It's a hot button issue for me. I end up rating and raving, screaming at the monitor, frothing at the mouth, breathing gets difficult, heart rate increases, hair stands on end. Ugh.
It's not a pretty sight, so I try to avoid that kindof discussion.Who says Rhinocoat should be limited to truck beds? Cost estimate for coating the inside of a windowbox should be forthcoming next week.
It is generally said that cutting back the foliage will move the development of new feeder roots back towards the trunk. The problem with this approach is that it takes some time for new roots to develop.
If you have the time, you could cut back maybe a third of the branches to the desired drip line, and prune about 1/3 of the roots(also at the drip line). Several months later, trim another third, and so on. New foliage will develop closer to the trunk, which is a good indicator of how much 'healing' has gone on. Anyways, I have had some success with this approach. If the trees are otherwise sickly, this could push them over the edge.
Oaks do not tend to topple from cut roots due to a big tap root, but the tap root is only structural, and not for nutrition.
I TEND TO AGREE W/ YOUR FORMER EMPLOYER,THE ARBORIST, NO DISTURBANCE IN THE DRIP AREA. IN MY EXPERIENCE, AND IN MY AREA (MIDDLE GEORGIA) TREES DON'T LIKE THEIR BRIGHT RED CLAY SOIL DISTURBED. SEEMS IN THIS AREA CONIFERS ie; SOUTHERN YELLOW PINE ARE MORE RESISTANT TO DISTURBANCE THAN ARE LARGE HARDWOODS,ESPECIALLY WHITE OAKS. I WOULD SUGGEST SAWING AND MILLING THE TIMBER INTO SITE HARVESTED FLOORING OR TRIM. AT LEAST THIS WAY YOUR CLIENT COULD ENJOY THE BEAUTY OF THE WOOD INSTEAD OF GAMBLING ON THE TREES SURVIVAL.
Sometimes the best planing doesn't always work out.
From http://boortz.com/nuze/200404/04052004.html
"AN UPDATE ON BELINDA'S TREE
It's gone. Cut down.
For those of you who aren't up to speed on this saga...Belinda and her husband chose this particular lot for their new home for one reason. The tree. A 58 inch oak. That's diameter, folks. The house was positioned on the lot for the tree. The driveway was designed around the tree. The tree was a neighborhood landmark for generations. Last Thursday some moron on a Ditch Witch was digging a trench for a power line. He dug close to and around the tree on two sides ... severing roots as big around as my thigh. By Friday afternoon city officials had decided that the trenching meant that the tree was surely going to die, and that it was now so unstable that it had to be removed immediately. That removal was scheduled for this past weekend. Isn't it amazing how one cigarette-smoking idiot (I know, that's redundant) can do so much damage out of sheer ignorance and laziness?
This Belinda's now-famous tree. It was taken down this morning because a contractor dug a trench for a power line and severed the root system. Unbelievable."
The Before picture
http://boortz.com/images/gallery/belindas_house.jpg