A 7 unit apartment house was converted to condos with all new electrical, plumbing, kitchen, etc. One of the condo owners had some additional electrical done and their electrician found several recepticles where the ground wire was not connected. And they also found a 14 gauge wire connected to a 20 amp breaker in the panel.
The folks couldn’t understand how these errors escaped the electrical inspection during the remodeling phase. I’ve not been on many inspections, but I don’t remember the inspector looking at each recepticle, checking each breaker for wire gauge and for that matter, checking light switches, etc.
Has anyone seen an inspector who checks each recepticle – not just for the ground connection, but also polarity? I suspect inspections are a function of how busy they are and the reputation of the electrical contractor. Is that a good assumption?
Replies
>>I suspect inspections are a function of how busy they are and the reputation of the electrical contractor. Is that a good assumption?
That is my experience.
We get what we pay for. Taxes pay for gov services.
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"Man's capacity for justice makes democracy possible, but man's inclination to injustice makes democracy necessary."
Reinhold Neihburh: 'The Children of Light and the Children of Darkness'
http://rjw-progressive.blogspot.com/
Edited 12/7/2009 9:56 am ET by rjw
Yes, I agree with you - and municipal governments are beign pushed to the wall to cut budgets. If they can cut police and fire, they can cut inspectors.
From your post: >> >>I suspect inspections are a function of how busy they are and the reputation of the electrical contractor. Is that a good assumption?
That is my experience.
We get what we pay for. Taxes pay for gov services.
<<
Not to be rude but have you bought many permits? We pay around $4k or $5k to get a permit on a small house. I've heard of municipalites near by that charge 2x or 3x that.... and even more in places like California. I'm not sure how much attention I should expect for $5k but I'm thinking it would be more than 5 minutes....
It is true though that there isn't much consistancy in inspections. In one city I work in they always remove the breaker panel cover and look in the box. Maybe even check a few connections too in there to see if they are tight. Then he moves on to random check a few recepticals and light boxes.
OTOH, in a county I'm building in right now, inspections are a joke. I had 5 houses inspections the other day that included electrical finals. He did check to see if the panesl were clearly marked.... Not that I want everything gone over with a fine tooth comb, but I'd like to avoid any electrical fires if possible...
IME they don't look at every single box, and yes, the reputation of the electrician has something to do with how hard they look. As far as grounding a plug, the inspector would not be able to see that after trim-out, so....
I agree and likewise it might be difficult to see if the polarity is correct also.
>"...and likewise it might be difficult to see if the polarity is correct also."<<Yes, but for about $15, anybody can buy a device taht is hald held, requires no batteries, plugs into any 110/120 volt receptacle, and has lights that tell good versus bad, and what the specific problem is.Like a disconnected ground, or reversed polarity.
I have one myself, from when I bought my last house.
I won't be laughing at the lies when I'm gone,
And I can't question how or when or why when I'm gone;
I can't live proud enough to die when I'm gone,
So I guess I'll have to do it while I'm here. (Phil Ochs)
Yes - Imentioned it earlier - mine is made by GB Instruments. Problem is the average home/condo owner doesn't have a clue about polarity and they look upon a ground connection as a nuisance. If they only knew how polarity protects them when they are using their curling iron!
What do you do if the power isn't on?
Rub two cats together?:)
BruceT
No, they've got to be dissimilar materials -- a cat and a dog.
A society that presumes a norm of violence and celebrates aggression, whether in the subway, on the football field, or in the conduct of its business, cannot help making celebrities of the people who would destroy it. --Lewis H. Lapham
Tell you what, hold on to this here cat and I'll bring the dog over.
>>Yes, but for about $15, anybody can buy a device taht is hald held, requires no batteries, plugs into any 110/120 volt receptacle, and has lights that tell good versus bad, and what the specific problem is.
There is an even better test device, but do we budget enough inspector time for her/him to check each outlet in a house?
We get what we pay for - in this case what we are willing to pay taxes for
"As far as grounding a plug, the inspector would not be able to see that after trim-out, so...."Not visually, but he could easily slip a three-prong tester into the outlets to test polarity, ground, and gfci function in two seconds.
BruceT
> As far as grounding a plug, the inspector would not be able to see that after trim-out, so...
For inspection, the devices should all be wired and the splices all made, but hanging out of the boxes so you can see everything. Basically the electrical system would be completely done except for tucking stuff into the boxes, tightening the screws, and putting the trim on.
-- J.S.
Makes sense, but I've never seen that. Sparky comes and trims out the job, complete with trim. How you gonna get him back yet again? I can remember just about once when I saw an inspector take trim off and check inside the box, maybe once or twice when they plugged in a polarity checker. They almost always open the panel.
That's what they had me do,
That's what they had me do, but I was building my own house, so I was always there. In the real world, you have a point. It would take another pass thru the house to fold everything into the boxes and put on the plates. It wouldn't take a master electrician and a truck, though. He could send the new kid with a screwdriver, and it would only take a couple hours tops.
-- J.S.
>>Not visually, but he could easily slip a three-prong tester into the outlets to test polarity, ground, and gfci function in two seconds.
And who is going to pay for the inspector to walk aroun d the house, find and test every outlet?
As an HI, I test a sample # of outlets as I go through a house (and try to get them all in a vacant house.
It is my opinion that it would take far longer than one would imagine to just test outlets throughout a house -- "2 seconds" simply doesn't convey the extent pof the task
Sometimes folks accuse me of being inconsistant, or of saying contradictory things. The topic of inspections is a great example of this ....
When I see a real hack job, or things done in unusual ways, I quickly begin to suspect that the job was done without a permit, or the accompanying inspections. It's amazing how many folks will protest that their work is far better than that of real contractors - yet go to great lengths to make sure no one ever checks their 'superior' work. Something Churchill said comes to mind: "Men seldom conceal success."
Still, fears of the incompetent notwithstanding, inspections can't be relied upon to accomplish much. Indeed, I really don't have that great of an opinion of inspectors as a group - and this opinion gets worse as more and more inspectors with real trade experience retire. Too many of today's inspectors have, as their claim to competence, a few seminars and passing a test.
Any contractor can tell you of outrageous stuff that was missed by inspectors; some even make a game of it, trying to see just how much they can slip past the inspector.
I like to think that I am conscientious, and try very hard to 'go by the book.' Fact is, my reputation with one town was such that I had folks within city hall reccomending me (unofficially). Still, when the city hired a new inspector, that guy came to a job and positively dissected the place; he wasn't going to let anything slip past him!
I don't begrudge him his dedication. I did find it amazing, though, what happened after the next meeting of the inspector's association. When the guy saw me there, and that I was on the board .... well, amazingly enough, he never dissected my work again. Even on a later job, where the customer had done much to ensure extremely close attention by the city, my work was not the focus of any extra attention.
With budget cuts, I've had the city send 'inspectors' whose main job was in the Parks Dept., and I've had to walk them through the inspection.
So, I'm just not impressed when I'm told 'it passed inspection.'
Thanks for you comments. I understand where you're coming from.
Has anyone seen an inspector who checks each recepticle - not just for the ground connection, but also polarity?
Yes, always. Every outlet is checked.
Really - that's terrific! That is very labor intensive, but certainly is the correct way to do the job.
with the plug in device. That'll do polarity as well correct?
I use one and it is great - GB Instruments. But I'm suprised at the number of folks including electricians that don't use them.
>>with the plug in device. That'll do polarity as well correct?
The "retail" ($3-5) ones won't find a bootleg ground.
It is my understanding that the really good ones will give false "positives" of a bootleg ground if the outlet is very close to the panel.
Around here, inspectors only check about 10% of the work done by licensed contractors, unless the contractor has earned a "reputation".
Homeowner permits are checked thoroughly.
I just talked to my plumber - all commercial work - and he said the same thing about plumbing inspectors. If you have a reputation as a good contractor who doesn't cut corners and doesn't try to pull something over on the inspector, the task doesn't take long.
Even though a lot of work isn't inspected, there must be a permit pulled for every job. In the case of the condo you describe, there should have been a permit for the job, and the contractor may be liable for correcting any deficient work. If they're still in busines.....
The developer is picking up the tab. Half of the units are occupied by first time buyers and the remainder are folks who have never dealt with these kind of issues. It's the lack of experience in dealing with the trades and inspection that has them befuddled. They think that having an electrical inspection means there are no problems when they move in - and they are having a hard time accepting reality.
I don't think it's out of
I don't think it's out of line for someone to expect work to be in compliance, especially after something as involved as a condo conversion.
I'd shit down the electrician's neck for doing crappy work, if he's around to be abused. The inspector, too bad, but as an owner I'd be raising hell with the local authority.
It's good that the developer is making things right. Which he should have done in the first place. But at least he's taking the high road, because he's the one who bears ultimate responsibility for the product he brings to market.
Man I must be in a pissy mood.
inspectors vary almost as much as tradesmen do....some are very detail oriented and others are not....some are reasonable and others not so much.....
I've worked with one guy who would check every outlet, every wire and get out a tape measure if your staple was slightly more than 6" from a box.
Others look at the general appearance of everything and if it looks professional assume it's well done.....for better or worse.
Everyone has their blindspots and at times I will ask a specific question of the inspector for an upgrade that I think the homeowner should do to get a response (second positive opinion)....other times I'll wait until the inspector shows up in a really good mood to pin him down on something we don't want to change but he may make us--often if they are in an especially good mood (hunting season, got lucky, etc.) many items on the fence will be allowed to remain as is.
It's like anyone in any portion of the industry--there are ways of working with them to accomplish your goals more effectively and some sure fire ways to tick them off and make your life more difficult. :)