Son-in-law is having a home built ($180K) in a development where building codes are very lax by a slick developer who subs out most work. The ‘foundation’ is complete. We are concerned because the back corner of the house is off the footer (because the footer is very crooked) and is held up by a cement block pier instead. Also mortar is missing in many joints altho the sub has now parged over the blocks to hide that fact. The garage is a wing off the house and its foundation starts with blocks laid on their side instead of upright. Multi-sized blocks have been used with extra mortar to bring them up to level. All things put together make us want the whole thing bulldozed. Builder says none of these things are important; township doesn’t inspect til end of contruction. IS it important and any ideas as to recourse?
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Replies
Even if inspection are relaxed is there an adopted building code?
What does the contract call out for in terms of what building code will be used, what quality of construction, and if there is anything to prohibit him from being in his own inpectors?
Most home inspectors only inspect existing homes where they make assements on the general conditions. But they don't specifically comment on whether it meets code or not, because codes are constantly change and often it is unknow when the work was done.
However, some home inspectors are CABO certificed and do new home inspectors and can make several inspections at different parts of the construction.
Have him hire one.
documentation..pics and notes of who said what and when..then call the BBB..report to them, then keep on going higher in the eschelon of county,state govt offices..
Hang on, it could get nasty,,I'd tell the builder to STOP..right now, until an arbitrater can asess the situ.
Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
Repairs, Remodeling, Restorations.
Is there a bank loan involved? Maybe ask the bank to havbe it inspected. Or hire an engineer or architect for an hour or so, the sooner the better. Good documentation will be your friend.
Whenever you are asked if you can do a job, tell'em "Certainly, I can!" Then get busy and find out how to do it. T. Roosevelt
The foundation is very important. Heck of a lot cheaper to fix it now than later when a building is on top of it. . Call your county inspector and tell the story. They should inspect if you tell them this. There are also private inspection services. Don't cost a whole lot. You don't want to be holding a mortgage on something that may have major structural problems later on. It may hold up OK, but it may not. If the contractor did this, what else did he do? Other shortcuts? Make it clear you want it done right and will not accept sloppy work. Its your money.
I agree with Bob. You should alert the building department and insist they do a preliminary inspection. You are paying them also.
Posting pictures here will go a long way in getting your questions answered
more specifically. There are some great builders,carpenter,etc. here with tons of
experience.
I agree with what the others said, especially about documenting. One thing that often helps in photos is to place a ruler or yardstick in the photo to help get an idea of scale. I did that once when I though the brick veneer on some columns was a bit thin.
I would contact a lawyer familiar with construction law right away. Here's why. The builder is sloppy and bad. It's not possible to make such people better, they will resist all the way, and will hide everything they can get away with. So, you want to stop as soon as possible and get away from this guy. The challenge is to do it legally, and with as little loss as possible. Since you have a contract, you need legal help to get out of it without making a mess for yourself. Lawyers see this all the time, and know the best course of action for you.
Don't know where you are but you definitely need to get the services of an ASHI and ICC Code certified inspector to look at the foundation and provide any code violations that are present - sounds like you may have a (several) problem(s).
Let me know if you need assistance in locating an inspector.b
Hi Kent, I am a Building Inspector for the City of Fairbanks and this situation is exactly what we are here to prevent. Your statement that "Building Codes are relaxed" is a mis-statement. The Building Codes don't relax...it's the inspectors that relax. If I were you I would get a Structural Engineer out there and have him/her write up a report of the structural deficiencies (which it sounds like there are many). Tell the Builder that you will withold payment until these dificiencies are corrected and brought up to code. If a bank is involved, give them a copy of the engineers report...once they find out they are paying for garbage, they'll do something about it. If the builder beleives he's not going to paid for his work, you'll have his attention.
I don't even think its the inspectors who relax. The county is not supporting poor construction practices. Simply that in many smaller or rural areas they have no funding or staff for a set of detailed inspections. But, the county certainly would not want the liability associated with failure to meet codes due to their inaction. They could be sued and probably will be someday. I'd be very surprised if the county would not send an inspector and take appropriate action when the issue gets brought to their attention. Then they'll have an inspector out there every week. Or, they can require third-party inspections if they don't have the manpower.
The bank is another thing entirely. They're looking out for their money. They care that the property meets FHA or whatever other standards they require. They want it to be saleable in case of default and meet lending requirements so they can sell the note. My guess is that they'd be more likely to just withdraw the loan than to get involved in a fight with the builder. Less likely to be a help than the building inspector.
Interesting comment on the bank. Maybe they would pull out ... but wouldn't thay have some obligation? What if the HO threatened to walk off and give the incomplete house back to the bank?
Whenever you are asked if you can do a job, tell'em "Certainly, I can!" Then get busy and find out how to do it. T. Roosevelt
I'm no expert in real estate, but the details of the agreement that were signed are critical. There are so many ways to do this . For a regular mortgage, the bank does not hand over the money until all their requirements are met at escrow. This would give the people more leverage. Fail to do good work, no purchase, no money. Unless, maybe these folks got a construction loan that will get turned into a mortgage. Then they're on the hook for a big short term obligation. Much harder to pull out of that. Or, sometimes big builders have their own finance group and package a loan for you. Then you have a more binding contract with the builder. But, the beauty of the American system. You can always walk away and make them sue you. The bank would probably help a little. I'm sure they want things as simple as possible. But, they act in their interest, not yours.
If it were me, my first step would be the building department, then a lawyer and an independent inspection, and ask for help from the bank last. The building department help is free. The lawyer can cost some, but is a powerfull tool when you need it. Messing with the bank may create more problems than it solves. I wouldn't even tell them there's a problem until there's no other option. I'm pretty sure I know what will happen if you say "I might walk out on the loan". They can afford a lot more lawyers than I can.
On a typical three or four draw construction loan the banks around here do some type of inspection. It is more to see that x amount of work has been completed, rather than a quality of work or code type inspection. They want to make sure ole BillyBob really does have a foundation in the ground, not a new bass boat, befor they turn loose that first draw.
FHA/VA loans do require compliance inspections, generally through the VA loan office. Some of them are pretty good, others are just making sure it is not a bass boat.
Final conversion from a construction loan to a morgage loan is coincidental with a inspection/appraisal. Here the lending institute is making sure the loan is secure by an equitable amount of property, i.e. BillyBob did spend xxxx on a new house, not xx + a new bass boat.
You are so right about lending institution looking out for thier own interest.
Local or even state level code authorities are the first path to follow.
Dave
"Son-in-law is having a home built ($180K) in a development where building codes are very lax by a slick developer who subs out most work. "
The problem is that is all that we know.
There might not be a bank, at least not one that has a relationship with the future HO's.
We don't know who owns the land. From the little that we know it is just as likely that the developer is building this on his own lot.
We really need to wait for Kent to comeback with more information.
"We really need to wait for Kent to comeback with more information. "
True. Unfortunately, now I'm thinking about that bass boat.
Thanks to all for the input!! The kids have a construction loan with 3 'inspections' during the building process...and I'd agree they don't give a ---- about the quality or even know quality when they see it. The house is on a lot in a development where one is locked into using that developer/builder. She has a lousy rep according to neighbors and the kids tried to sell the lot unsuccessfully rather than build but no takers. They decided to move forward so they were out of limbo.
Re township codes. Guess what...this IS southern PA and this township had no code prior to 7/31. Only inspection is final one. A new statewide code is now in effect but this place is being built on a permit pulled prior to 7/31 sooooo whatever is IS. We are documenting with photos but it seems that there's no one who cares except us. Kids don't have the money to hire lawyers, private inspectors, or start lawsuits but it looks like that is the only way. I only hope the place stays up til they can sell it themselves!!!
And then someone else is ripped off instead...
"Criticism without instruction is little more than abuse." D.Sweet
Where in southern PA? You don't want to wait till later to make this right...from your description the foundation is in pretty bad shape, and it won't get any better from here. For a couple of hundred bucks now, you can get an engineer to come out and right up a report... I can maybe even give you a name, depending on where you live.
" Kids don't have the money to hire lawyers, private inspectors, or start lawsuits but it looks like that is the only way."
Can they afford an 180k house that maybe 100k OR LESS?
Don't forget that in most state the seller is required to disclose all known faults. They know all about these problems or they can be on the receiving end of the lawsuites.
For nothing to $100 they should be able to get a lawyer to study there contract and tell them what all rights and responsibilities that they have.
A resell home inspection will run $300-500. I really don't know what new construction inspections cost. And it will depend a lot on the local and how many inspections that they make.
But I am guessing $500-1000.
As bad as this they can not afford NOT TO DO ANYTHING.
For nothing to $100 they should be able to get
A copy of the plans to "their" house would be on my list of "worthwhile" expenses. Even if it took $20 & a twelve pack to borrow the super's set of marked up prints, the $2-3 per page for copies at the copy center would be a reasonable cost. It would also document what is supposed to be built.
If the neighbors are complaining, maybe the way around the cost of a lawyer is to create a class of folk who need representation.
I'd want to chat with the bank manager in charge of the note about this. Mortgages (in theory) are supposed to be set up to where the lender has little or no risk--that having lent $180K, that there is at least $180K of value. This turkey sounds like it will have to struggle to reach 40¢ on the dollar. The bank can afford lawyers.
I've seen operation like this a time or two before. The "developer" buys up some dead farmer's pathc just outside the city (townsihp) limits. Said paragon slaps together a "subdivision," and, when all the lots are bought, the set peice is offered p to the city for annexation (usually to get the city to put in utilities & maintain the slapdash roads . . . )
What's the city to do then? The VFD now has 157 houes where there were just 5 farm buildings. There are all of these new roads, some of which will now need traffic control (and lane changes, and crossing guards, etc.). Oh, and we have all of these new kids who need to be educated, too . . .
Oops, sorry, veered off into a rant--will get off my soapbox now . . . Occupational hazard of my occupation not being around (sorry Bubba)
Yes, when young and think there's 'someone out there who controls all this stuff', it's a shock that we can't go thru a model home in a development and buy what we see...thinking all is right underneath because 'someone' made sure it was.
After $2400 in legal fees trying to get out of this unsuccessfully, the kids are biting the bullet and moving forward. And yes, we THANK all of you for your input. We have been adequately informed, advised, & chastised. Cease & desist before we shoot ourselves! Happy building all!!
: )
Blessings to you and yours.
"Criticism without instruction is little more than abuse." D.Sweet
Kent - I am a litigation lawyer up in Toronto and do work in the contruction area. You have received excellent advice from knowledgable trades. I would suggest a few things for your kids:
- scrape together some money to have a reputable GC take a look at things and advise if all is as bad as it seems. I had a GC client kicked off a job as the homeowner didn't like the fact that he charged 10% overhead/profit. Apparently he was supposed to work for free. I mean no disrespect to you, but an outside perspective always helps. But I am not hopeful based on what you originally posted.
- scrape the money together to meet with a lawyer who is knowledgable in litigation and contruction law. This is a must if the GC's response is "oh boy". They need advice on the contracts (building and mortgage) and a risk anaylsis re: breaking the contracts vs. moving forward with this builder. Will it be better to walk now from a deposit versus continue and incurr the mortgage debt and potentially have a house that cannot be sold? Will they be able to force the builder to "do the right thing"? I suspect that they never met with a lawyer re: the construction contract before it was signed, so it may be heavily weighted to the advantage of the builder. That may or may not be a bad thing. The lawyer can advise.
- document, document, document. All conversations with the builder need to be documented (ie, handwritten notes) and confirmed immediately thereafter in a letter. Keep copious notes of all interaction with the township as well - follow the 5 w's rule (who, where, etc.). Lots of photos and video, all documented as to date/time and provide measurement markers as suggested.
- perhaps the lawyer can put the township on notice re: liability for lack of inspections and anything else he/she can hang a hat on in order to put your kids' hands in more than one pocket, as you may find only lint in the developer's.
These are a few things of the top 'o me head. Best of luck. Cheers, Paul
born an raised in SE Pa..wanna clue me in?
[email protected]
Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
Repairs, Remodeling, Restorations.
For sure, at least talk to a lawyer about the permit/code issue. If the township had no code of its own, I'd expect the statewide code to be imposed by default. Just because they had no code of their own (which usually is some slight changes to the state code, which is some slight changes to one of the standard codes) does not mean you can build any old piece of junk and sell it. For example, you can't leave live wires hanging out of the walls just because the township didn't specifically say the National Electrical Code was imposed. You may not get homeowners insurance if the insurer doesn't think the place was built to code.
A copy of the plans may not be much help. Local rules have a lot to say about those. Some require very detailed plans. Others will accept a scribble on the back of a napkin. Frequently plans show very little detail on some things. Builders often work from stock plans that are modified on site to suit the situation. I built a 2-story house once with full basement from plans that said 1 story with crawlspace.
Its worth a few bucks to get this resolved quickly. The bank will be very unhappy that they financed 180K on a house that appraises at $120K because of the faults. They can come back and sue YOU. With interest rates rising, home prices may actually drop. Your kids could be stuck with a real lemon. You need professional help here. There is a lot of risk.
I am also curious about where in Southern PA. I live the southern part of Franklin County near the Maryland border in a township where there were no codes prior to July of this year. There are a lot of homes in this price range being built in the development next to ours. We have been watching them being "thrown" up and chuckling about some of the "quality" of the work. Once these houses are complete, 99% of the owners will never know how many corners were cut until its too late. If this job is anywhere near our area, I wouldn't mind taking a look at it. Not that I'm an expert, but I could help refer you to some locals who are.
Kids don't have the money to hire lawyers, private inspectors, or start lawsuits but it looks like that is the only way.
do they have the money "not" to?
JeffBuck Construction, llc Pittsburgh,PA
Artistry in Carpentry
Curiosity more then any thing what did your son in laws lawyer say about the contract your daughter and the son in law was going to sign with the contractor? Did the lawyer make sure there was some kind of inspection to be done before contractor gets paid. Did their lawyer make sure the building standards were spelled out in the contract. If not why not? Did your daughter and son in law even have a lawyer look at the contract?
Many of you obviously work in well regulated areas. I work in Northern Maryland where codes and inspections are very tight. Until just a few months ago I could go 5 miles north, to southern PA where all you need to build a house is an electric inspection.
Ever seen footers on grade in a frost zone?
Ever seen overspanned floor joists?
Site built trusses?
But the best.....
A main girder supported by an old tree trunk in the crawlspace?
Do the drawings show the blocks laying on their side? How about walls running off the footing? Insist on getting what you are paying for,the blocks right side up on the center of the footing!
Sounds to me they didnt do enough research and hire a quality builder. Fault one. Fault two: they know something is wrong but arent really trying to fix known violations, such as not hiring a lawyer.
They need to document the foundation mishaps and future mishaps. Photos, photos and more photos. Talk to a contruction lawyer and then they need to do something.
Knowing the foundation is poopy what makes you think the rest of the house will be peachy.
If they arent willing to do something now about the house, then in all honesty. They will get what they deserve in terms of quality of a house. Someone else mentioned it, if they can borrow 180k for a house but cant afford to talk to a lawyer then well, what are they doing building a house.
Kent,
Have you considered hiring a project manager?
I normally would not recommend such a thing... but in this case, it may be worth the investment.
A project manager (paid by you) would work as your watchdog. He would oversee the building process and point out anything that is wrong... hopefully while it can be changed. If these kind of errors have occured... I can only imagine about the quality of the rest of the project without some kind of further supervision.
Your kids should not just "accept" poor workmanship. They should be big PITAs about any issue that is substandard. That being said... sometimes things are "OK" and sometimes they "look bad", but are not. From what you describe, obviously there are issues. As this goes along...there will be more issues (even if it went "normally"). A normal homebuilding process is contentious sometimes. Whatever they do... they should not give up on requiring the builder to do it right... even if that means picketing in front of the offices of the builder (extreme example... but you get the idea).
You may need some professional help to assure that your kids get the house that they deserve and have paid for. A project manager would at least provide you with a better perspective of what to "go to the mattresses" over.
One other thing. The architect "should" have very detailed specs for the house. You can get a copy of those specs (and a set of plans). If the builder veers off those specs and plans; take him to task and force the changes to make it comply.
Withhold authorization for payment (from the construction loan) to the builder if the changes are not made. He can only make a claim for a draw if the work is complete... and if not done to specs... the work is not complete (without specific authorization from both your kids and the architect).
As I type this... I also remember the "architect factor". Consult with the architect and make it abundantly clear that the house is not being built to specs. I am not sure what action the architect can take.. but if he is at least aware of the problems... he may be able to do something.
Of course, these suggestions are only MHO. You have done right by consulting a lawyer... don't lose contact with that lawyer. Now that you have spent the initial money... consultation from this point should not be as expensive.
Best wishes that you can work this out. I hate to hear these kind of stories.
I think I remember reading that the developer is doing the construction. He may also have in-house designers/architects, and then it would be futile to try to work through, or with, the archy. My guess is that the developer is trying to get maximum profit out of all phases of the project.
Whenever you are asked if you can do a job, tell'em "Certainly, I can!" Then get busy and find out how to do it. T. Roosevelt
Kent
I can tell you this, if you let the builder get away with it now, you'll regret it later.
When I built my new home, I was working a full time job away, so I hired a contractor to do the work for me.
I picked one with a good reputation.
That said, every friday, when I got back from work, I walked the construction site, took pictures and made a list.
First thing Monday, when the crew showed up, I went thru the fixes I wanted and any corrections.
If I caught any bad construction, I told them to fix it and not go on till they did, period.
Otherwise, I was sitting on the contractors doorstep right away.
I was there when every wall was layed out to be sure it was right.
A few surprise visits during the week also helped.
When they built the attached garage, I asked when they were planning to do it.
I was told when, and when I arrived, I found it built, and roofed. And it was wrong.
I almost made the builder tear it down.
You might say we had a meeting of the minds over that one.
Even tho I made him make a number of fixes to it, it still bothers me 20 years later.
Stick to your guns and make sure things are right now, or regret and pay for it later.
The local ski area has alot of developers.
You would be amazed at what the builders get away with.
Big bucks and lousy work.
Costs the owners a fortune later to fix.
DON'T let the builder continue till he fixes the problems now.
Jeff