I read the Mike Guertin article on installing cabinets “smooth and solo.” His approach is only slightly different from what I’m used to.
It seems like there are a few schools of thought, like bases first vs. wall cabinets first. Guertin does the wall cabinets first, and joins them together before fastening them to the wall. According to the article, he always uses blocking, even in a remodeling situation.
Guertin’s cabinet stand was absolutely pimp. It’s like $500. I’ve seen a couple different shop-made solutions that work pretty well. What’ve you got? I currently have nothing. I’ve used 1) ledgers, 2) bases first and jacks on the counter (not my cup of tea), and 3) metal track.
Replies
Which issue was this article?
Quantum materiae materietur marmota monax si marmota monax materiam possit materiari?
Issue? FHB 174. http://www.taunton.com/finehomebuilding/how-to/articles/installing-kitchen-cabinets-smooth-and-solo.aspx?LangType=1033&ac=fp
Solo hanging is different than havng a helper. In my region, kitchen cabinets are fully constructed, we don't use knocked down cabinets that have to be assembled. The individual cabinets come in boxes with the doors and drawers in place. After unpackaging, we remove the doors and drawers. If I have a helper, I gang the wall units on the floor and lift and install them as an assembly. If I work alone, I put the base units in first. Instead of jacks or ledgers, I built some simple stool/benches that are the correct height. I use a piece of plywood as a temporary countertop. It's pretty easy to set one or more wall units on the benches, adjust as necessary and screw to the wall. I also have a few pairs of Jorgensen cabinet claw clamps, they are a big help. It's great if blocking has been installed but in many cases we just find the studs.
Beat it to fit / Paint it to match
Instead of ganging cabinets on the floor, I use benches...less stooping over (I often use two benches--end to end--and gang 3 or 4 cabs):
Are you hanging that "gang" by yourself?
For kitchens like that one I never had any help, maybe that's why the NO GANG thinking that I have.
Of course I've seen you hang a bat house on the side of your house so maybe you can do it!!!
I'm sure its all about preferences but I feel I can attach them together hanging from the cleat just as easy, JMHO, that's why these discussions usually don't illicit any response from me, to many ways to do the same thing and none of them right or wrong.
Doug
Edited 12/27/2007 5:47 pm ET by DougU
Doug,
French cleat. Mounting cabs under a soffit or to ceiling. Can't slide in from end. Do you leave out a pc of cleat and slide them on each way, filling in the last pc w/o a cleat?
Or, are you using an applied later "trim" to the top of cab/underside of soffit? Or is there some other miraculous way this is done. I've only used the metal french cleat a couple of times in the past and didn't have this situation.
thanks.A Great Place for Information, Comraderie, and a Sucker Punch.
Remodeling Contractor just outside the Glass City.
http://www.quittintime.com/
Calvin
If I cant use a french cleat then I just use a plain(3/4" X 3" strip of ply) cleat, cabinets just slide strait in, you don't get the holding power of the french cleat but it will hold the cabinet up there with the same amount of strength, you just don't have that nice bevel(both on the cleat and the applied strip to the back of the cabinet) that a French cleat provides.
When I hang a box I don't drive the screws tight, that way I have some wiggle room to line the fronts up. Only after having the cabinets lined up(both front and back) do I drive the screws tight, of course plumbing as I tighten.
Doug
Do all your boxes have a recessed back to accomodate the ply cleat, or just the end boxes. OR is there a skin-field applied.
thanks.A Great Place for Information, Comraderie, and a Sucker Punch.
Remodeling Contractor just outside the Glass City.
http://www.quittintime.com/
Calvin
We build everything and yes, the back is recessed, 3/4". this might be a luxury that store bought boxes don't have but it does make it nice to have a full 3/4" to hang from.
In thinking about it maybe that makes sense why the gang building on the floor? If it has a thin back cleat or no cleat at all then maybe it does make sense to use a lift and gang build, I know that when I was installing cabs for the local trac builder I just held a box up in the air, sometimes assisted the hold with a 2X4 cut at 54", and screwed each box individually. Never seen a store bought cab that was all that heavy, maybe the corner unit but then 2 2X4's to hold it in place while screwing it off.
If I have say 4 boxes in a row that some here might gang build on the floor I hang my cleat, notch out the sides of the cabinets for the cleat(only the inside sides of the two outer boxes and both sides of the two inside boxes) then throw all four up on the cleat and start lining up and attaching.
More often than not we put decorative end panels on our outsides of the boxes so its possible to actually cut the side notches for the cleat on the outside of the end boxes. You have to end the cleat someplace so I leave it short of my final width and let the side of the box hide the cleat.
If the boxes don't get a decorative end panel then our sides will have an additional 1/2" added for scribing. A 3/4" cleat will still hold the box in place while you mark the scribe, well almost, sometimes if the wall is a little wacky then you have to drive a screw part way to assist for the scribing.
Doug
How high do you hang your uppers above your bases? I just read something which said there are more new tall counter top appliances, so wall units should be higher.I usually use 18", and I can't say as I've seen any any of these new tall gizmos... &, I install like cal for exactly the same reasons... the floor appliances rule<G>
What the hell, you change your name again!
I usually set my uppers 18" above the lowers. We sometimes do some funky stuff and then that number changes but normally 18" does it.
I'll have to go back and read what Cal does, didn't pay that much attention to how anybody really does it, so many ways and as long as the cabs are where there supposed to be who cares how they got there. I'm not trying to change anyones mind on this. I have my way but its not etched in stone, its not unlike me to do it a totally different way on occasion, I'm pretty flexible!
I still cant for the life of me understand anybody putting the lowers in first but .........what do I know.
EDIT, Ok, I went back and read what Cal does! My comment still stands on the lowers first but again, who the hell am I?I have a print of everything that's going to go on when I go to install cabinets so there isn't going to be any surprises with appliances or any other thing, this is why you figure stuff out ahead of time.
I understand what Cal is saying but we build/design everything we do so there is not going to be any hidden surprises. Even when I installed cabs for the trac homes I still hung the uppers first, of course there were probably never going to be anything other then standard appliances in these kitchens.
Before I even look at the boxes I have everything laid out on the walls and floors so I know where everything is going. I know where the high spots are and I work accordingly.
Maybe I'm spoiled with the blue prints but even on the jobs that I take on I have everything figured out ahead of time. Installation is the easy part, I do not believe in "figure it out as you go" wastes to much time.
Doug
Edited 12/28/2007 8:09 pm ET by DougU
I set my uppers in pretty close to my lowers.
And I use polygrip to hold 'em. Just the thought of screwing them in makes me cringe.
But hey, maybe if I fixed 'em in there with drywall screws, I could enjoy some peanut brittle, and a nice hard Granny Smith to go along with it!
Doug, I do them bottoms first but I also lay out every unit, top and bottom before the first unit gets set so theres no difference there. Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
I still cant for the life of me understand anybody putting the lowers in first but .........what do I know.
I go either way.
I prefer to do uppers first ... but it seems 60% of the time ... the layouts say running bases first is gooder.
just thot of one example ...
open run out of a corner.
that corner was set by the cooktop cab in the center ... so the CT cab had to be centered first ... then work that wall. OK ... now we got the corner set.
next ... an off center, to the room ... window.
sink base has to be centered on this window ... so set the SB ... and work left ... to the corner ... add the filler.
no filler on the right side ... so run the bases tight.
now ... the uppers ... float between the window trim ... and the slider.
but ... they "should" line up at the end ... 'cause if not it's stupid.
expecially with a bracket down to the CT to be added later.
so ... I'll run the bases first ... 'cause they gotta go where they gotta go ...
and set the uppers ... starting from the far right ... so that plumbs down perfectly ...
and hopefully the other side comes close to where the designer guessed they'd end!
best designer I ever worked with threw in 1.5 inches of filler on each trapped run ...
so U could plan for an even 3/4 each side ...
and by the time the drywallers were done ... no one would notice 5/8th one side and 7/8th on the other!
also worked too much with another designer ... how hated filler strips ... so she never planned for or ordered then ... 'cept she also must have hated tape measures ... as she never learned to read one.
lotsa fun installing cab's an inch too long for the wall. Luckily they were face frame's ... and I have a planer .... an 8th to a quarter off each side can add up!
Jeff Buck Construction
Artistry In Carpentry
Pittsburgh Pa
Not sure how my name changed, didn't even notice... must have been the "Christmas Eve Hard Drive Fiasco"I don't really care how anyone else installs, either. Most of our installs are stock with fillers... no room for french cleats... and so poorly planned out, it's a surprise a minuit... keeps life interesting<G>... just like this name changing thing, ha!
As a general rule, I like to see uppers set 18" above the countertop rather than 18" above the lower cabinets. Depending on the countertop thickness (1 1/4" - 1 1/2") the clear distance could reduce to 16 1/2" or less (especially if there's a light rail extending below the box) which never seems like enough space.
Jeff
decent cab's made outta ply as opposed to cheaper particle board sides ganged up like that ... stripped of the doors / drawers ... don't weigh much at all.
my preferred method is to gang as many as possible.
helps my in remodeling these old houses with old plaster walls ...
one big unit helps eat the little waves easier.
I've strung so many together at once I've had to build a "lifting platform" ...
either bases ... or build L brackets off the wall so I can deadlift ...
then reposition my hands ... then take a deep breath for the final bench press.
then again ... my buddy once told a customer "Jeff is good at kitchens 'cause he's built for them ..."
they asked ...
he said ... "U know ... short ... kinda square ... like a base cabinet!"
just then ... the electricians helper walked thru ... tall / thin kid.
Joe looked over and said ... "see he's good too ... look how "wiry" he is"".
Jeff Buck Construction
Artistry In Carpentry
Pittsburgh Pa
Should have used a block & tackle, like those piano movers, for that bat house. ;o)I either just gang two or three cabinets when working solo, or gang each run up and do the lifting when a helper can stop in, or I gang the cabs up on those 1x8 boxes I set the wall cabinets on top of--then attach the whole run to the wall.Ganging up large runs is not the best approach if the wall leans out much at the top and the cabinets run up to the ceiling or soffit--no way to get shims in at the top of the cabs.As you said, plenty of ways to do this stuff.
When I was younger, I would assemble all walls together first and lift as s unit after first getting the screws started in the right places to hit studs. Then I would lift to hit a ledger at the top of them, jam a pole or two in under, then discover that my screw tool was just out of reach and stand there cussing at myself while holding them up with one hand and reaching for the tool with my other....
Welcome to the
Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime.
where ...
Excellence is its own reward!
LOL that sounds about right!
I always work alone. Always set bases first, so that I can quickly get the solid surface boys in to template. My thinking also is that the bases dictate what goes on above. I base this on all the major appliances sit on the floor. To me, adjustments can be made on the wall units easier. Of course with remodels, you need to know what's going on with the space b/4 you start. Walls 8' off the floor can be vastly different from whats down below. And pre-existing soffits present another interesting condition.
After setting bases I lay a pc of 3/4 sheet goods on them and build uppers in banks I can handle. A long time ago I would set each upper box, and build off each one. That was time consuming as I often had to loosen a previous box and re-shim to get the one down the line right. I also used scabbed together platforms that I could shim off of.
Now I set the boxes together on the temp top, a few at a time and fasten them to each other. Lift them up and place them on the Little Hands from Fastcap. Take a few more and add to that. Screw them together and lift with the Little hands into the final position.A Great Place for Information, Comraderie, and a Sucker Punch.
Remodeling Contractor just outside the Glass City.
http://www.quittintime.com/
That's pretty much how I do mine. The Little Hands are fantastic!
I do the bases first for another reason: It gives me a place to set my tools where I can reach them without wearing a tool belt, or bending over to pick them up off of the floor.
I do the same as you and Cal. I hate bending more than I hate anything.Well, maybe mud..When I did a lot of commercial tenant work, my portable workbench was the exact height needed between the base and the uppers. I'd do like Cal, set some plywood or plank and set my work bench on top of that. Each upper would just set on the workbench as I tweaked it in place. All my tools and shims and screws were in the tray in the bottom of the bench. Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
All my tools and shims and screws were in the tray in the bottom of the bench.
I like that idea.
Do you have any trouble getting the bench out from under the cabs once they are hung?
Nope, I just pull it.Remember, I said I "tweak" the cabinet into position. That means I'm usually shimming the bottom of the workbench or the cabinet with some cedar shims to tweak it into it's perfect position. Clamps pull it in tight and perfect. After screwing, I simply release the shims and move the bench under the next unit. I do this because I'm weak and lazy. Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
That's what I thought might work.
Sounds do-able, especially as I have a weak mind and a lazy eye.
that sounds better than a limp wrist on a lazy susan
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
no arguement there
Anything like this?
Nope.My tool bench is usually about 2' long and 1' wide 16 to 19" high with a bottom tray. Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
I make my boxes 19-1/4" high (to allow 18" from bases + 1-1/2" for the top - 1/4" for shimming) and 34-1/2" long (long enough to span across stove openings and can be turned on end to match base cabinet height (handy for a cabinet stand in and for supporting countertops if you need to slide the top out to bolt up a miter, etc.).I have three of these boxes made up out of 1x8 or ply rips.Your tool tray sounds handy.
see the red thing. I bought that from an auto part house going out of business sale. paid $20 for it. it used to put pallets on shelves.
The tool tray is something that I always put on these benches. I use the bench for my everyday work. It is my stool to reach the top plates, it carrys the active tools (nail puller, etc) and it is the perfect height to make cuts. I usually whip these benches up quickly on a job and most often just leave them onsite at night. I couldn't remember the height needed for cabinets because it's been awhile since I set any. I think I make the benches seat high (20") and whack an inch or so off when I need them to set the uppers. Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
I like how you thought that one through. I'll be stealing that idea if you don't mind ... just got off the phone with a remodel request.
Doug,How do you handle the french cleats when the wall leans out at the top? One kitchen I did had about an inch difference between the top and the bottom of the 54" tall uppers. One wall leaned in, adjacent wall leaned out.Steve
mm
Do you know that if you put a cleat up and the wall was leaning out by 1" that the cab wouldn't stay up there? I don't but my guess is that even under those conditions you could still hang the cab from that cleat and maybe you wouldn't want to let go of it but the majority of the weight of the cab would rest on the cleat which would allow you to put a screw or two in it. I'm sure you can give me quit few scenarios that a cleat wouldn't work but somehow I'd find a way to get it up on the wall, done it for 30 years and haven't been stumped yet!
Hell I've just held the cabinets up in place and screwed them to the wall, that's the way I did it all the time on the cheapy cabinets that went into track homes.
Doug
Doug,I've done cabinets with french cleats a couple of times and the walls were pretty plumb so it wasn't a problem, but I do a lot of work on really crooked houses.I'm sure the cabinet would probably stay put, but my question was more one of dealing with getting it plumb. When the top of the wall leans in, no problem, just shim the bottom of the cabinet out, but when the top of the wall leans out, the cleat holds the cabinet tight to the wall at the top. How do you shim the top out and get it plumb?Steve
How do you shim the top out and get it plumb?
OK sorry I didn't read it correctly.
If the top has to be shimmed out I might just put a temp cleat under the cabinet so that I can rest it on the cleat, then shim the top out to plumb. Or, I guess one could also screw the bottom first and then the weight of the cab is being held up by the screws allowing you to shim the top out. I think either one of these methods would work.
I'd do anything to avoid using a lift, that includes using my back!
Doug
Doug,I usually do the temp ledger underneath as my standard installation technique (uppers first). But the couple of times I've done the french cleats I've liked them. I was just wondering if you had a special trick for that instance, like maybe shimming out the wall cleat or some such. Maybe your non-french cleat would work if the lean was less than say 3/8 of an inch...Steve
Edited 1/12/2008 9:35 pm by mmoogie
Since the majority of my work is done in new high end homes I don't come across walls that are out 1", 3/8" would be unheard of.
I do use the non-french cleat more then the french though. Seams that we go back and forth on installing the beveled piece on the cabinet box which obviously has some bering on whether or not I can use it.
I do recall using one single 3/4" cleat with a 3/8" or 7/16" piece to fur it out further, old house remodel if I recall. Just doesn't seam that I see the scenario that you mentioned come up to often, If I recall it's usually the other way around and as you know, that's an easier problem to deal with.
Doug
I'm routinely working on timber-frame houses circa 1830-1860. No sheathing, only claps. It's not at all uncommon for them to be racked at least 3" in 16- 20 feet of height. I've even built cabinets with a big taper built into the box to accommodate the slope in the wall. Funny thing is how little you really see it when all is said and done.Steve
It's not at all uncommon for them to be racked at least 3" in 16- 20 feet of height.
That would certainly make me reconsider my policy on putting them together on the floor and installing them as a whole unit, with a lift no less!
I guess I don't deal with extremes like that but it does force one to re-evaluate their methods.
I've even built cabinets with a big taper built into the box to accommodate the slope in the wall
I would think that you could still use standard size boxes but make up the difference with finished end panels?.......... just typing out loud here. You obviously deal with more of this type of stuff then I so I'd have to bow to your practices.
Doug
not sure if I've ever posted this story here ...
but I usually run a ledger along the wall(s) ...
working one as a sub ... I ran my ledgers ... coming out of a corner ...
then did the usual.
cut a 2x about 3ft ... lopped 45's off each end and tacked it across the front.
then proceeded to lift and set the big corner cab and shim the sides and front ...
using that "extra" 2x to help shim the front.
one of the trim carps that worked for the builder came by and just stood there ...
I'm wondering ... OK ... what'd I just screw up?
then he looks right at me ... says ...
That's Genius!
30 F'n years and I never thot about doing that!
told him I thot about it years ago when I set my drill and screws on the "other side" of the room as I stood there holding up a cab with one hand ...
Jeff
Buck Construction
Artistry In Carpentry
Pittsburgh Pa
The time I tapered the boxes was an unusual case. (no pun intended). The walls leaned in quite a bit, I didn't want the cabinets getting too far forward for some reason I can't remember now, and I needed full depth at the bottom of the cabinet for some large plates, so to maximize the depth at the bottom and still keep it only 12 inches off the wall at the bottom, I tapered the carcass in at the top. I was young. I don't think I would do it again under the same circumstances. I think it was only a 5/8" difference...something I would just live with having spent so much time in old houses now.This thread has been really great. A lot of great ideas out there. Working mostly alone for the last 15 years, I get kind of stuck in my habits. This is a great place to broaden your perspective.Steve
I've always put the bases in first so I'd have a solid bench to work from and a place to set my tools for anchoring the tops.
Best tool I've used for the top cabs. is a cheap, automotive scissors jack. For that amount of weight a screwdriver will raise the jack. Lets me fine tune the height with almost no effort. Paid about $16 for the jack.
I once watched a cabinet pro do the top cabs first with the help of two adjustable paint roller handles. He had put rubber crutch tips on both ends and could adjust them with one hand while holding the cabinet with the other. He raised the cabinet, grabbed the handles and shoved them in place. Worked well for him.
Brad,If you like how it works, post back here...that would be good to hear about.Another idea is to make one box 1-1/2+" smaller in width & height so you can just unscrew the center support of the bigger box and the two boxes nest together for transport or storage.I sometimes need the shorter box for a lower soffit, and I keep rips of different thicknesses of plywood to make the boxes match in height if I want two boxes on the same job.I started with one standard box, then had to cut it down for a job and built another standard box later and made it long enough for the two to nest. Then I built another and have three now.This week I used the boxes turned on end to hold casing and trim while staining and finishing. They hold trim on all three levels (the boxes are just right of the miter saw).
They are well thought out in that you can get the quick jack by squeezing the .................squeezer,
or turn the tube for the fine tuning.A Great Place for Information, Comraderie, and a Sucker Punch.
Remodeling Contractor just outside the Glass City.
http://www.quittintime.com/
And that was back when it was a yankee screwdriver.Most of our cabs are custom now and made up all one unit at the shop and plenty of manpower to install. seems like we often do bases first now for some reason.
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
Bases first fo the countertop template can be made. There's plenty of time to install the uppers while waiting for the countertop.
if I know the framers I will do uppers first (or if I framed it)and then lowers much easier than trying to work over bases rather than having my hammer hit the bases everytime I turn around, marks them up too much. Usually it is a two person job.. but we will screw a 2x4 to the wall at upper height and sit them on that.
Sometimes lowers make sense to get everything to line up when walls are out or square and plumb. Counter guys can come in when everything is set.
Biff
I thought you worked for a cabinet company(installer)?
There are about as many ways to hang cabinets as there are to have sex, none of them are wrong.
I'd never think of installing the lowers first(on traditional upper/lower cabinets) but if someone else does then so be it, don't make either of us wrong.
I also don't see the need to use a lift or gang build them on the floor, don't make any sense to me but again, whatever works! I doubt either method will get the cabinets up on the wall any quicker. I have never tried the gang build because its counter to my thinking and I've never seen anybody else do it either.
My first thing to do is find the high points and go from there. I don't install any cabinets that are not built by us anymore so of course my methods reflect that.
I like to use a french cleat or in some cases just a strait cleat that I can hang my boxes to while I screw them in place. I measure ahead of time to find out where the studs are so that's not a mystery to me when I get the box up in the air.
And the most important thing, use the right screws to hang them, I'll let you determine what the right screws are! We don't need to start that shid again :)
Doug
"We don't need to start that shid again :)"LOL, I was wondering how long until somebody did!
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
I was project manager for a company that renovates kitchens and baths. I'm completely familiar with how their cabinet installer does it. That's why I asked how *you* installed cabinets. :-)I'll add that he thought installing bases first was silly. That definitely put me in an awkward position when it came to rushing him so we could template for corian or granite. He never ganged cabinets, but used stands to install one at a time, and plumbed them in place. His stands were simple shop-built things with a foot at either end. To tweak a cabinet, he'd kick the bottom foot. ;-)Anyways, there's plenty of ways of skinning this cat. That's why I asked!
Edited 12/27/2007 10:06 pm ET by Biff_Loman
For entire kitchens, my preference was to do all the mark-up & such the night before (after shooing all other trades out). Then, I'd arrange to hire up a linebacker-built sort of lad for the heavy lifting.
For remodel work (or less than "entire kitchen") I'd hire two, since there was a lot more "stuff" to work around. (Pre-installed tile backsplash with ornate, one-of-a-kind, irreplaceable tiles still up there on "gives me a twitch just thinking about it" scale).
I've pretty much always been uppers & talls, then bases--after I learned about french rails, it's the only way I'd use.
Oh, yeah, there better be a special spot in perdition for the laminate man who talked the customer into the admittedly spiffy inlay job that the laminate guy "helped out" by preinstalling the laminate up on the wall (this was coved splash and top in one). Laminate man needed more windows open while working contact cement--he hung his laminate in one fell swoop across the wall--covered up j-boxes, a plumbing stub-out and the vent for the hood . . .
I know that guy,..... when did you run him out of Texas?
when did you run him out of Texas?
Which one, laminator or linebacker? <G>
(Last I heard the linebacker was selling insurance in Kansas after 2-3 years on scout team in nfl; and the laminate guy is still down near Dripping Springs but does "earth art" nowadays.)
Laminator glued the top 10-12" of plastic (which he had intricately made up in a zowie-way-too-cool pattern) to the wall, then put in s/r screws every other stud . . .
That's what it took to get the plastic to "lay down" right over that hank of 12/3 that would not jam into it's box (this was the lead to the transformer for the l/v lighting <sigh> . . .
Other than the two-day seance of measure twice, then quija-board again before cutting, that was really a smooth job. The "oh we only need you for the cabs" job with the pre-installed splash probably stole more of my life through stress. HO "gc-ed" that job oh so very well. Tile person had no idea that floors might not be level. Or that countertops might be more than 5/8" thick--even though we gutted this kitchen, exactly one wall at a time, about 4 weeks apart . . . Occupational hazard of my occupation not being around (sorry Bubba)
I always install them right side up.
But I once had a sub do a kitchen install, and he later populated this forum spewing all kinds of venom, and he got some of the uppers upside down. Musta been some kind of dyslexia.
On the upside down/right side up-how do you tell the difference? Finished bottoms, swing of door as shown on print?A Great Place for Information, Comraderie, and a Sucker Punch.
Remodeling Contractor just outside the Glass City.
http://www.quittintime.com/
good Q.
unless something special is ordered ...
uppers are up / down universal.
just flip them and reset the shelf hardware.
and it's no big deal to have to do an unplanned flip / flop / fill ... when the designer orders the wrong door swing.
flip the cab ... flop the doors ... and fill the holes.
never my prefered ... but have to cover someone else's a$$ all the time when working with k and b dealers ...
Jeff Buck Construction
Artistry In Carpentry
Pittsburgh Pa
In frameless work, Calvin, you know it when the doors don't go on correctly, that the box is on the wall upside-down.
The hinge plates are typically placed to make the doors sit with a 3mm top reveal, with zero at the bottom. That is when the door has no light rail overhang.
When there is a light rail overhang, as there was when Mr Observant screwed up, the situation is made worse.
Take a look here, and you can see what I mean. The view is a wireframe of a wallcab for which the door o'hangs the bottom by 32mm.
View Image
I've worked several frameless, but never have had the overhanging doors that become your light rail.
I would probably notice right away that something was up, but would have no doubt been in on the situation well in advance of the hanging. However, I would not know that the top and bottom hinge on the box would be in a different spot. I would have expected the locations to be the same. I see how you just can't switch sides for the doors on a frameless as the hinge plates go in the drilled shelf holes and do blow up when installed.
thanks for the explanation.A Great Place for Information, Comraderie, and a Sucker Punch.
Remodeling Contractor just outside the Glass City.
http://www.quittintime.com/
When I build them, as you can see in the section in the post, earlier, the nailing cleat is at the top.
Furthermore, the bottom edges of the side parts are edgetaped, but not the tops.
But Mr Not-So-Observant made his silly little error hanging a job we did with cabs purchased from Crystal, and they do not abide by my precepts.
ALL doors, however, are "balanced," which means they are unhanded.
Sorry, that earlier pic did not clearly show the cleat. This may help. I removed one side so you can see it sort of as a section.
View Image
upside down/right side up-how do you tell the difference?
Well, in a quality box, you probably can't, true enough. If the shelves will only sit on the adjustable shelf pegs in Australia is a good clue <g> . . .
Sadly, some of the, ah, less-expensive, mass-produced un increments, prefinished, boxes, your first clue is the door won't go back on right (because that Monday they ran off 1300 "Windsor" (square raised panel in faux mahogany gloss finish) W1830's, the carcass press was not quite right, and they all have 3/32 of 3D racking built in.
Even more fun if their door operation was having a Monday, too <sigh> (had some days when the cardboard box was better than the "cabinet" we were hanging . . . )Occupational hazard of my occupation not being around (sorry Bubba)
I set uppers first, then bases. With a good set of blue prints and carefull layout what could go wrong. But that's my opinion, and like DougU said everyone has there own way.
I usally work alone or request the older carpenter to help. Young ones tend to turn the job site into a production fast get in and out type of thing. Or they can't set there coffee cup down for fear of losing it!
Three months ago we were building a house next to a production builder. His trim guys hung their cabinets gang style, and had them done in four hours. We hung the same amount in three days. When we finished our house, went next door to re-hang theirs.
Like DougU said everyone is differ.
Nailer
Re-doing someone else's work - that is a classic anecdote.
I can recall one instance in which a crew of framers - young guys - in a remodeling project had to uninstall a simple vanity of ours. They couldn't get that single base cabinet re-installed and the door adjusted properly. Or they couldn't be bothered to try.
They couldn't get that single base cabinet re-installed and the door adjusted properly.
Everybody has their specialty, and theirs just happened not to be the fine art of doing any kind of cabinet work.
Why didn't you step up to the plate, and offer to do it for them. Show 'em how.
Then, you coulda shown them what a crossover kind of carpenter you are, and offered to cut their next roof frame for them, the one with the bastard hips, octagon dormer bumps, and eyebrow dormers.
;-)
"They couldn't get that single base cabinet re-installed and the door adjusted properly. Or they couldn't be bothered to try."They could set it if they were told to and had the right tools. Most likely, they were told to remove it, and fix something in the rough frame. They probably were told to leave it loose becuase the trimmers would re-install it.I probably have been asked a few hundred times for my framers to do a task that is a trimmers job. I ALWAYS say no. I learned the lesson the hard way back in the 70's. Framers are accustomed to bullying things around and that usually ends up as a disaster. I myself refused to do the trim work, even though I knew what to do. The reason? All my trim tools are back in the barn, not in my truck. Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
All my trim tools are back in the barn, not in my truck
I wish I would stop running into "carpenters" who think that framing tools are trim tools . . .
(think 3/4" shoe cut with a 40-tooth wormy . . . )
Something to do with what they learned "coming up"--which appears to happen less and less anymore . . . Occupational hazard of my occupation not being around (sorry Bubba)
Whoa, struck a nerve with the cabinet thing.
What got missed in my message is that the framers were all young guys, just like the young guys Nailerman mentioned. They told me they could handle it. I had to go, and later the homeowner called and said it wasn't quite right. ;-)
Nailerman's post triggered a memory, is all.
Crossover carpenter? No way. I don't like heights - I'm happy to stay in the kitchen. Making the kitchen, that is.
I used to work for a kitchen dealership installing and learned that carefull layout of both lower and upper cabs are key before a single cabinet is actually set. I've always taken the time to evaluate how level and square the room is, if the trim goes to ceiling, if there are tall cabs, if the window and doors fall where predicted, etc.
Once all that is established, I decide on a height for the top of the base cabs and run a level line as needed (laser is nice too). then I set the talls, panels and bases. We mostly worked in pairs so moving stuff around and holding up cabs were not too bad. MY co worker and I would set a kitchen (cabinets only) then go and set aother together, then we would split up and finish the detail work and trim solo.finally we would team up again for appliances. Anyway, after the bases were set we would hang the walls simply using legs cut from 2x4's to establish the corect height abouve the base for the wall cab. shift them to thier final position and screw em to the wall. Never pre assembled just cause I'm not a burly guy so lifting is not my strong suit.
I read that article Mike wrote and thought that would be the way to go but never had access to that type of lift. maybe someday.
"it aint the work I mind,
It's the feeling of falling further behind."
Bozini Latini
http://www.ingrainedwoodworking.com