Hello,
I have a bid for a framing job for a custom house (mine). I looked at the framers work but was not very impressed. Here were some observations:
- purlins put in crooked or with 1/8″ – 1/4″ gaps between studs
- gaps in top plate intersections of up to 1″
- sub-floor sheathing nailed every 12″ rather than 6-8″
- bowed jack studs and corners not nailed tight together
- sheathing for hipped return at barge rafter end with 1/2 = 3/4″ gaps to wall sheathing
Would you consider this within the acceptable norms for house framing?
What other factors would you use to judge quality framing?
Thanks,
Roger <><
Replies
The short answer is no.
Some things I look for:
I look at how many nails are used to attach the rafter to the ceiling joist. More than 5-6 is bad.
I look for tight fit between boards and straight lumber used in the walls and ceilings. I can't tell you how pissed I get to see a crooked joist amongst a whole ceiling of straight ones. Same for studs.
I also look for in-line framing, and inspect the fitment of the rafters to the ridge plate.
I check to make sure the framer placed joists so they won't be cut by plumbers for drainage lines. I also tell him beforehand to lay out the joists with that in mind.
I love to see blocking for trim.
I will admit that I'm new to GC'ing, and that I've never been a framer. I can cut boards and nail them together, but I AIN'T a framer! That's why it's important for me to employ a knowledgable one.
Roger, it looks like you've been inspecting the work of a hack. #5 might not be that critical, but I like my framing nice and "crisp." Purlins in a nice, straight line, tight to the studs. No gaps where wood meets. No "shiners' where the nail missed the stud or rafter. Everything should be square, plumb, and level, but good framing should be pleasant to look at, too. Some things work just as well with a small gap, rather than being tight, but to me a good framer takes pride in his work and he wants anyone to be able to look at it and not make the comments you're making here.
I would also look at the condition of the jobsite. Are there drink bottles and lunch trash laying around everywhere? Is the lumber laying all over the jobsite, rather than stacked in an orderly manner? There are a lot of hacks out there, but when you walk on the jobsite where a good framer has been, you can see a difference. Nice, tight work, and a nice, tidy jobsite are good clues to look for.
Thank you God for Life, Love, and Music
My better sense tells me to leave this alone .
Framing doesnt have to be pretty and is not the gauge of quality. Believe it or not.
An inspector judges strength by codes. You cold have #1 framer fit outstanding joints that will be covered up with roofing , siding , insulation board , insulation, drywall , paneling , etc. He also could fit in headers tightly that dont conform to load calculations. He also could leave out bracing and and carrier support in needed areas. He might as well use wrong nailing patterens to top it off , but hey, hes got a trim saw on the job and he USES it .
#2 framer rocks and rolls but puts framing that supasses code and actually over builds. Bracing and added support out the wahoo. Over sized headers and all carrier support is over sized. Hurricane strapping in tornado country. You get the picture .
Now if the wall peices are not flush for trimming and drywall , then thats bad . Its simple enough to ask for more nailing of decking. Theres not enough room here or time to mention everything Im thinking , but framing should be judged by code.
Sometimes you see every thing tight and pretty, plus its over built . Be prepared to open your check book.
You are right to judge what you want to see because its your money and after all its your house . We also know that bids are not always equal for several reasons at least. You have to make your own decsion , but a good building inspector can control code issues if hes knowledgeable .
Tim Mooney
Edited 2/17/2005 9:51 am ET by TIMMOONEY52
Roger,
Combine Tim's comments with Matt's and Moondances', and you've got quality framing. Tim will get you by, but the others bring the quality up.
SamT
My "gut feel" is to keep looking for a framer. His price was the lowest so far. I presume he is working under a business model of quantity v.s. quality work, because most folks will go with the lower price.
Thanks for the "in search of quality" tips.
Roger <><
My "gut feel" is to keep looking for a framer. His price was the lowest so far.
I gotta feelin this aint over yet.
Now ya gotta find a framer you like . Then find out what hes gonna cost ya .
Then you will be weighin in "heavy weights" again.
Tim Mooney
On the last big job I came in four times higher than the low bidder. The cheapest is usually not the way to go if your looking for quality
I'm going with Hammer on this.The low bidder is going to bang it together and get out. But then again, you want this under-roof in good time. Bowed studs will show in the sheetrock, a gap in top plates won't. Sloppy floor nailing will show up as squeeks, a crooked perlin block will be a crooked perlin block.
I didn't do it....the buck does NOT stop here.
I've also been trying to stay out of this one, but oh well, I don't know how to control myself.
I judge quality frames in this way first. Does the frame support the loads? Does the frame allow the walls to be installed straight. Is the frame nailed tight so it won't squeak.
There's too many variables. I'm also one that will use scraps up and sometimes it might not look as pretty, but it will be functional and as strong as someone using 10 or 20% more lumber.
If I was the homeowner, I'd follow my instincts. Your instincts might drive you to want to see things overbuilt. I wouldn't hire a guy that put too much lumber into my house because my instincts tell me something different.
Since you don't feel like this guy's work is up to par, it won't be for you. YOu might as well be happy and comfortable with the guy that is going to frame your dream.
blueJust because you can, doesn't mean you should!
Warning! Be cautious when taking any framing advice from me. There are some in here who think I'm a hackmeister...they might be right! Of course, they might be wrong too!
Well said Blue.
As a structual building inspector for the city, my answer is to find another framer. I would not approve framing that is as you discribed
depends on the job. Sometimes I use peices that are a little of scrap just not to waste material, if it means an inch short in the top plate, the drywall should have no trouble bridging that gap. It is called 'rough' framing. That said when the house is complete a well framed house won't squeak. The floors will be level as well as corners. Your tile, trim, cabiniets, hardwood ect will all benefit. Don't be to quick to judge over something that 'looks' funny. I would definitely take a level an check out the walls floor. If he's got problems there I would definitely be suspicious
me ...
I'm more a trim carp than framer.
I'd go broke if I only did framing ...
that said ... when I frame my own stuff ...
funny how the doors slip right in and I don't fight the cabs or crown?
I'm picky. Most "real framers" would ... and have .. said too picky ... the framings supposed to keep the place from falling down. I say BS.
Someday when I'm building subdivisions ... maybe I'll have to realign my thinking ... till then .... I'm thinking about the trim guy ... because that's me.
Luckily on my small scale projects ... if I don't do it myself ... my costs to get it done "my way" aren't so much that I can't pass it all along to the customer.
I've said it before ... I like Blue ... but I'd bet I'd never be happy paying him .. and he'd probably be smart enough to walk away from my job in the first place. He seems to be very good at production framing .... I'm bad at production anything.
That's nothing bad against Blue ... just wanted to point out that two "good guys" can have two different ideas on how things should be done.
I'm thinking you better start looking for a smaller/slower framer and expect to pay a bit more than his usual top price.
Jeff
Buck Construction
Artistry in Carpentry
Pgh, PA