I got to wondering this just the other day.
I have been doing some trim piecework for another contractor on a 1mil+ custom home, everything from installing cabinets to fabricating fireplace surrounds and suana kits.
Also been hanging doors and installing hardware, etc.
I usually do these tasks associated with my own projects, and I have a notion of how long certain things should take. When I hire these tasks out to another carpenter, I am able to judge that carpenters relative speed. I can say that carpenter is fast, or slow, and so on.
But, how to judge my own speed?
Is this like driving, where all others are judged by my own standards? You know, anyone driving faster than you is a maniac, and anyone driving slower is an idiot?
Maybe I’m neither fast nor slow, I just am.
Forsooth.
Replies
<How do you know if you're slow?>
Yoooooooooooooouuuuuuuuuuuuuuu tyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyypppppppppppppppe
liiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiike thisssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssss.
Forrest - glad to help
I'm not really following you around the forums.
I think the plain answer is, you bid it, you're progressing, if you translate dollars into some kind of hourly target, is it where you were shooting for?
I mean, as long as you're hanging and casing at least 30 doors in a day, you're good, right?
j/k :-)
Real trucks dont have sparkplugs
30 doors would be a slow day.:-)
I know yur not following me, and I appreciate the input. You're just here on a rare occasion when I feel like talking.
The money aspect of the job is covered, I just got to wondering if others on the job considered me to be 'slow' or 'fast'.
Made me think of an older man I knew on a job a long, long time ago on a job far,far away. He was a friend of the contractors' that was brought in to help trim out some townhouses because the contractor was a little behind.
I remember us young bucks thinking the old guy knew what he was doing, but was a tad slow at it.
The 'old guy' was probably about 60, and I can see that from here now.
Made me think, is all.
Last door I hung was at the rate of about .3 doors per day. I think the price of the door was over 8k.Mike Callahan, Lake Tahoe, Ca.
I am a carpenter for about 25 years now and the best line I heard on this topic was from one of my mentors. He was asked by his boss "how many doors can you hang in one day" He replyed ONE and if that goes well two and if that goes well three etc... In other words quailty and speed don't mix.
If you are making money tour speed is fine.
Doing OK on the money, and, on the things that I specialize on, I am faster than the contractors' crew.
Some of the younger guys think thay could have put the sauna together faster, tho.
The young guys always think they can do it faster. They also are the ones that have to go back when the boss makes em re-do something. Experience has taught me to move really fast when I am scrapping, sweeping and cleaning, and real slow when I am filing a rough edge on a laminate top.
We all find our pace and others will have an opinion on it, but does it matter so long as the client is happy?
Who cares whether anyone thinks your slow or fast. I love what I do and make a good living at it. I do it at my pace and do it with quality and pride. Most "fast" guy won't last long in the trades. Either quality is low, attitude is bad or they of to other ventures that won't last long either. Just ask the women you know if the would prefer speed or quality.
Russell
The HomeOwners Handyman
Allegan, Michigan
"Welcome to My World"
Don't know if I really 'care', it was mostly a rhetorical question. I go at the speed I go at, and you don't need to redo my work.
But, the guy that's paying almost always wants things to go quicker, until things get messed up.
I just had an observation about perspective, how things look different depending on where you stand.
Einstein knew this.
Thats cool. I did'nt mean it to sound like a nasty retort, but it did did'nt it. Sorry.
Russell
How do you know if you're slow?
You never hear a gunfighter ask this in the sphaghetti westerns...
So you must be slow
;)
Welcome to the
Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime.
where ...
Excellence is its own reward!
Well, there are books that will tell you what a person should be capable of doing in one day, or what should be expected of them. The Means Book of Construction is one of them. Maybe you want to guage off of that.
To my way of thinking though, it's all subjective to many different things. Doing the job right, what obstacles are there, is it new construction, new to old, restoration, conservation, the types of materials you are working with etc etc.
A big percent of what I do is restoration, and in that type of work speed is not really a factor.
Used to be I was slower when it came to the type of work you're describing, but then as time went on I got faster because I became more efficient, I had a system and I learned how to think in terms of production instead of piece-meal. Also my tools got upgraded and that made a difference.
I still can only go a certain pace though because otherwise the quality of work will suffer and that ain't happening.
I was reading some posts over at JLC and there are guys who huff & puff about being able to install PH doors in 6-10 minutes, soup to nuts. Yeah....bully for them and bull. You and I both know what that's all about.
I'm curious about the speed too, but it doesn't matter to me anymore because I have a lot of people who want what I do because of the way I do it, not because of how long or short a time it took.
A hundred or even more years from now when people are looking at your fine craftsmanship, they won't even know how long it took to do nor will they care. All they'll know is that there were some damned fine carpenters back then who knew their craft and took the time to do something right.
Jer,
Great post,thank's. I have gotten a lot of jobs in the past, because I don't "bull & Jam" . I go at the pace I feel comfortable with, to get the job done right, attention to detail, and no collateral damage..my clients respect that, and have no hesitation paying for it.
Dennis
Your post pretty well describes my feelings on the speed issue.
I am unwilling to sacrifice the level of quality in my work, and I seek out those that appreciate quality workmanship. It seems there are enough of those types around to have made a career for me thus far.
I guess I was just musing on the ride home about how difficult it can be to judge your own relative speed. The quality of your work is tangible and evident, and you can 'see' if you did well. But could you have done it more efficiently (ie - faster)?
Heck,
You're alright,, most self employed people tend to be very self confident. (many of them unjustifiably so in my opinion)..
Your speed varies depending on the quality of work that you do and the difficulty encountered..
Production trim work.. say in an apartment complex or townhouse porject sets standards for that type of work but high end work to a higher standard must of course be judged on a differant basis..
I saw the results of one trim carpenters work on a multimillion dollar home.. it was a litney of what not to do and how to cover up mistakes. The contractor and home owner were both pleased as punch because it was done on time and under budget.
I spent about 5 minutes pointing out major flaws quietly to the contractor and his face got whiter and whiter as he began to see some of the things I pointed out to him plus more on his own..
Luckily the home owner remained in the dark but years later I noticed that house remained on the market for years when the market was burning hot. Apparently other saw it as well.
Doors reveal a lot.
One of the first things I look at in homes the grandkids and I "inspect" in the many subs going up around here is the finish on the hinges.
95% (either PH or on-site, about the same) have burrs from the router still on and painted over, this includes some $2 mil houses.
A house can tell a story, if you know how to read them, I agree.
I can't help but 'inspect' houses the same way.
But a $2 mil house ain't what it used to be...
Lately I have thought this as well. And I have come to a few theories.
If I am by myself and in charge of no one, I get through things very easy and quickly.
The more guys I have on site, the less I get done but more work gets done as a whole by the group.
I have squeezed down to me and one other full time guy, with a part time. I get alot done this way. My billable hours go up and I am not babysitting and pointing fingers.
I miss the days when I had a good chief on site, I got tons of things done without having to plan ahead that far, because the chief had all the cards already laid out. Now that I am the chief I can see why some days he didn't get alot done.
Woods favorite carpenter
FKA- Stilletto
"How do you know if you're slow?"
Oh, I know. I just know.
When you are as slow as I am, there is no doubt about it.
Rich Beckman
If Blodgett took a pin hole camera pic of me working, the image wouldn't be blurred at all.
So if I look up the word slow in the dictionary, I'll see your picture, not blurry?
:-)
well, i'm not slow......
and... i'm not fast..
i think i'm half-fast...
and of course...
if you are a jack -of-all skills... it's hard to be a master of some
so you have to discount .... if the total job has 15 doors.. does it make sense to sub it out to a door hanger
or do you just have you and your crew knock it out in a day... or two days ?
a typical remodeling job doesn't lend itself to the most efficient trim carpenter.. better off with a generalist.. and getting it done right usually beats getting it done fast
i face this dilema all the time.... when do you do the roof with your own crew... and when do you bring in a sub?
when do you lay your own oak floors .... and when do you bring in a sub ?
when do you frame your own job... and when do you bring in a sub ?
siding.... kitchens... painting... drywall....... we do it all ....... SOMETIMES
the only thing we don't do on a regular basis is excavation, electrical & plumbing
but we're not fast at anythingMike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
"So if I look up the word slow in the dictionary, I'll see your picture, not blurry?"
Yup. Well, in the better dictionaries.
Rich Beckman
"I started studying physics as a way of answering my questions in philosophy. When I was in high school, I developed a nice theory of how extrasensory perception might work. But then I learned that it violated the special theory of relativity. I realized that unless I learn physics I may come up with all sorts of ideas that will sound nice, but always I will be talking nonsense"Andrei Linde, professor of physics, Stanford University
Instead of speed, what about efficiency. Does the work flow smooth?
Ive got both speed and efficiency, just not much of either.
I'd say that "slow" is only relevant relative to the established schedule. I was used to managing an installer who would work at a tearing pace for 6.5 or 7 hours a day. No lunch, no breaks or anything, and moved (and thought) fast. But god help you if you needed more progress that day. So is he fast or slow? ;-)
I've asked myself the same question.
In reno work, what with the time spent scoping out, measuring and correcting for site issues (i.e. out of plumb in two or more planes at once, not only out of level but multi-level....), surprises in every cavity, and so on.... it "obviously" takes time to get good results that fit in/blend in with the rest of the house.
If at the end of the day, when I stand back to take in what I got done, and what I see pleases my eye and my heart - then I KNOW I've been slow. If I priced the job right, even better. If the customer sees the value for money, better yet.
In the matter of speed, an educated realistic customer with an eye for quality work is always an asset. :-)
I think 'slow food' as opposed to 'fast food', and obviously from other's comments we are not alone in that respect.
Edited 12/8/2007 11:07 pm ET by Pierre1
When I was younger, I had the good fortune of meeting Carl. He was in his late 50's and he was as good as they get.
One day a few of us were kicking around some thoughts about speed, quality of work, satisfying the boss and/or ourselves and other weighty issues.
Carl hadn't said anything so I asked him what he thought. He looked at me for a second then said..." Just do your work, everything else is ka-rap."
God I miss Carl.
The truth of his simple statement has held up these last 30 years.
buic
As long as your speed is faster than your age, you're good to go.
Beat it to fit / Paint it to match
"Maybe I'm neither fast nor slow, I just am."
The truth is that every human being has certain attributes that make them good and fast at some things and not others. We are what we are and we are what we strive to be.
Michael Jordan might not have been the fastest player in the NBA, but he certainly was the best basketball player. When you translate that analogy into the carpentry trade, you see the dilemma. Does fastest equate to the bestest?
So,the answer "how do you know if you're slow" is actually a pointless question and rather meaningless no matter how you answer. If you are doing self analysis for the purpose of comparisons, you would have to compare your speed with your contemporaries and then create some form of handicapping for quality.
Each person has their own nature, own drive and own definition of what slow, fast, and quality are so your answer is not easily answered.
Are you slow? If you are, are you okay with that or do you want to be faster?
I suspect many carpenters don't really want to face up to those answers unless they are fast. The slower ones immediately switch the discussion to quality as if to say that fast carpentry cannot = quality carpentry. Quite often, that's the truth but realistically, there is a fastest person in the world and there is the carpenter that puts out the highest quality. In theory, those two people might be the same but I suspect that it would be two different people.
Personally, I prided myself on getting things done and prided myself on delivering everything in high quality. At one time, I could frame with anyone but only if I was in control of the entire sequence because my speed came as a result of my specific systems. Our crew was considered fast and we generally hit all marks on quality.
It's okay to be slow, if you are, and since you're working piecework it should be okay with the boss too.
Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
Can't speak for others.
But if I am spending more time redoing things I did quickly then I am going to slow.
I think its the old "Tortoise and the hare syndrome", .
I once worked wth a clown who was extremley fast, but he often made mistakes that really slowed down the job.
I remember one time on a remodel, he framed up a wall in about two minutes, and when he went to stand it up it was about 1/4" too tall.
Being in a hurry, he grabbed a mall and tried beating the wall in place and ended up breaking a floor truss. He pulled me from my job and we spent the next six hours trying to repair the truss.
I know it would have probably taken me about fifteen minutes to build that same wall, and then he would have chewed me out for taking too long.... because he was the foreman!
I swear I worked with him. Was his name Frank? :)
I'm neither fast nor slow.
I'm just half-fast.
Kreuzie
You are slow if you can't go faster than me... I'm in those dictionaries that didn't have fast enough cameras to capture Beckman's pic <G>
Winterlude, Winterlude, my little daisy,
Winterlude by the telephone wire,
Winterlude, it's makin' me lazy,
Come on, sit by the logs in the fire.
The moonlight reflects from the window
Where the snowflakes, they cover the sand.
Come out tonight, ev'rything will be tight,
Winterlude, this dude thinks you're grand.
One of the joys of working at most types carpentry is that efficiency and self awareness can become one.
Aiming for a better organized approach, applying skills with clearly focused care...it all supports efficiency of thought and movement, a relaxed and contented condition in which to work.
a relaxed and contented condition in which to work.
Got that right. I can umph up a few degrees and kick some azz speed wise if needed but why?
If someones doing this solely just for the money then they need to rethink their lifestyle as there are a lot of easier ways to make a dollar.
be souly
so what'sn yer soul?
I'm slow, my mother once told me I would be late to my own funeral.
Work is time and details.
"I can umph up a few degrees and kick some azz speed wise if needed but why?"Why not? Walk through a mall and notice that there are all kinds of people. Some lollygag, some stroll, some walk with a purpose, some are manic, some are depressed. Do any of these folks need to apologize for who they are and what they do? Of course not. The same goes for a construction site or any job for that matter. The challenge for those that want to be fast is to balance their "need for speed" with the need for quality. One of the things that I always preached to the speed demons was that they couldn't count the job done if they left a nail out anywhere. I can't comment on what speed means in the world of trimmers. Nor can I comment on what speed means in the world of remodelers, but I do know what speed means in the world of framers which quite often involves a continuous loop of the same easy repetitive processes. Money is made by quickly standing up large numbers of relatively easy frame walls and there isn't any measureable difference between the slow framers quality and the faster framers quality. In the end, it's all pretty much the same if the correct procedures and standards are followed. It's the mental game that separates the two meaning: I've worked with slow framers that would leave a wall out of plumb 1/16" and I've worked with fast framers that know they can tweak that 1/16" in an instand and THEY DO IT! A speedy framer will walk at a pace that is in sequence with the overall tempo of the entire operation. Often, the tempo is an important element to MAKING HIS JOB EASIER! Slower tempo framers don't quite understand this statement but it has something to do with inertia....get the load moving and don't let it slow down. We used to hump huge trusses and huge beams in the days before cranes and the wise boss always demanded that the correct tempo and effort be maintained because we all know that it's easier to keep a load moving than it is to get it started.That thought process pretty much sums up the entire framing operation.I have other thought regarding framers who build walls 1/4" too tall...but this post has gone on too long already. Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
I have other thought regarding framers who build walls 1/4" too tall...but this post has gone on too long already.
That's ok, just start another post.
be the postman always knocks twice
Most framers have a very hard time finding the balance between perfection and slop. They tend to apply finish standard to procedures that call for rough frame standards. An example of that is rough openings for doors. I've seen guys freak out because they have a rough opening 1/4" too small or too large. They can't seem to get it through their minds that the final frame will float in the rough and its ALLOWED and intended to be inexact.In the case of the remodeler framing a wall too long...that indicates to me that he was too focused on getting that frame wall too tight which is unecessary if it's a non bearing wall. Framers tend to be embarrassed if they don't force a framed wall in. I've seen it far too many times when framers get into basement wall situations and think they need to hold up the joist. The ironic thing is that often the ceiling will drop 4" and it would be far better construction to drop the entire frame wall 4" too and brace it to the ceiling above the suspended ceiling. There are times when things need to fit perfectly snug....like piston rings. Non bearing interior partitions rarely need to be framed that tight. When they do, it's probably not cost effective to prebuild them because of the variations normally present in remodeling jobs.The key to speed for framing is in learning the balance between quantity and quality. No one cares if a part buried in the wall is hand planed smooth, so a competent framer doesn't pull out his jack plane on every piece. Nor does he treat each phase of a rough frame as a finished frame. It's okay that some finish carpenters apply their mindset to their efforts if they are framing but it's wrong for them to look down their noses at framers that truly understand their role in the construction of a fine house. Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
I can appreciate that. Sometimes I'm prone to getting lost in tiny town with something that doesn't have much impact on the whole picture.
The balance between quantity and quality is a needed trait to be learned.
Bob's test date is tomorrow
there isn't any measureable difference between the slow framers quality and the faster framers quality
I don't buy that. I am slow. I have done some work in pretty much all of the trades, and will probably never be fast in any of them except one. I can frame very fast. If I were young and making a living at it, I probably would.
Now I am a bit old for that. I'm not saying that there are not a lot of framers out there who do a higher quality job than me, but I have never personally met one. I have heard of them, and I have worked with some of them - but I don't really think that their quality was as good as what they advertised.
When I have framed for speed, quality suffered, although I think my quality was still higher than the quality of the people I was working with. I put my emphasis on quality, and it fits my view of life.
Don't get me wrong. This is not about bragging. I truly believe that high quality framing is within the reach of most people who do it for a living. In the real world that I have experienced, the problem is in the attitude. Quality takes effort - physical and mental. It does not necessarily translate to more money for the person who does it because of a world view. In fact, generally, I think most bosses will be all over someone who takes a moment to do something "better". Quality only seems to pay when the boss demands it, and when the boss has enough success and reputation to make quality pay.
Finally, I will say that I have known several framers who demonstrated a capability to do the highest quality of work, in my opinion. Every one of them produced work that any hack could have done. They had the skill, but not the mindset.
Posted in another thread but I caught a couple of points in the article I thought applied to the "am I slow " .
http://www.jlconline.com/cgi-bin/jlconline.storefront/475c5750003340c127177f0000010543/UserTemplate/82?s=475c5750003340c127177f0000010543&c=14d42b07598e873f4d542806ef8df204&p=1
They can't get your Goat if you don't tell them where it is hidden.
I thought that was an interesting arcticle, thanks for posting the link.
I used to tell my crew that the way to learn to do quality finish work is to learn to pour a foundation square, level and plumb and most importantly CARE that it is. Finish carps are asked to be magicians every day . But 90% of the magic wouldn't need to be worked if the preceding work was done with an eye to the work that follows. Couple of months ago I had to deal with a pair of wood windows set in a corner above a kitchen sink. Windows were separated only by a 4" column at the corner, stone facing applied to exterior to bottom of sill, cement board siding, ext trim applied and painted above stone. Windows were 1/2" out of level to each other. Skirt, sill with ears,parting bead, head , crown all had to align. Took me 5 hours to fake the discrepancy into something that fooled the eye. To do it I had to dismantle part of the window itself and rebuild it after shaving or adding the needed slivers. Framers, stone masons, drywallers, siders all passed the problem on without a thought about it. I can still see the out of level and so would anyone with the "eye", sad that it took what it took to fix an error that would have taken 3 seconds to catch if someone had just looked or maybe if they did notice , say something and insist it get fixed. I set no speed records on that window. Same house had numerous places where the crown over the doors projected out into adjoining walls or cabinets. Some instances the crown prevented cabinet doors on an adjacent wall from being opened.
Each such location took time to think a solution up for, change the detail and regroup. All time lost. Sheer lack of foresight and planning costs a lot of money. It isn't a perfect world , but it gets better when everybody cares about the next guy.
They can't get your Goat if you don't tell them where it is hidden.
That JLC piece was a good read. Thx.
Jobsite life would be easier if the trades respected one another's needs a bit more. The cost of adapting finish materials to out of square/out of plumb/out of plane framing errors add up quickly.
"Quality only seems to pay when the boss demands it, and when the boss has enough success and reputation to make quality pay."
Lots of worktime in the real world behind those words.
I'm an artist, not a technician -
"there's enough for everyone"
Being the terrible business person that I am I never really timed myself on anything. I kind of figured how much money I wanted, how long I thought it would take (usually way off) and give an estimate.
One time when work was really slow and I needed work bad I answered an ad in the paper foor a "high-end trim carpenter". The guy asks me, "In a typical 12' x 12' room how long would it take you to hang and case a prehung door, closet door, base, and window casing?" My answer, "ummmm, uhhh, I don't know, maybe half a day."
His reply, "huh, you're way off buddy, try two hours." I guess I realized then that I was slow.
That's okay that your slow Ted because it fits your preferred method of business perfectly. It just don't fit into the other guys model and that's okay too. The question I have is this: when I add up the number of parts in your theoretical 12 x 12 room, there aren't that many. If you do the division it seems that a couple hours would be plenty. Lets break it down for fun in minutes. Tell me which item I'm way off on.set prehung door 5
set other door 5
precut 12 casings 12
nail 12 casings 24
cut 12 base pieces 12
nail 12 base pieces 12
cut 4 window parts 8
nail 4 window parts 16
smoke joint 5
total less than two hours.I don't trim much so I don't know which of these values aren't correct. This would be my guess. Tell me which parts I'm way off on. Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
No spec on the closet door, but, 5 mins seems rediculously optomistic.
That takes up the time to enjoy the doobage.
At that point why even go to work?
;-)Remodeling Contractor just on the other side of the Glass City
Jim, FWIW: Prehung- 5 min . if opening is plumb and square , adjacent walls are in plane, rock is cut right to rough opening (not hanging into it, taper hasn't wiped a dollup of mud off into the opening), Trimmers nailed securely and flat with nail heads flush to wood surface not hanging out, not twisted. Add minutes for each of the above conditions if not met. I allow 20 minutes a pre-hung interior, from start to finish including lock sets, and thats when I have my "groove" on Other door- hard to say : double bi-fold, 6' opening?
Same conditions as above for the opening (same deduct for items not correct), plus cut and assemble head to sides, stand, shim , nail,pre drill header, cut track to length, set upper track , plumb down and set pivot points after cutting shim blocks beneath them , place pivots into pre-drilled holes in door (assuming they are pre-drilled, if not lay out and drill door for pivots), set doors into opening , adjust for even reveals, place center closure springs in upper track , drill , and place "keepers" at 1/3 point on both doors, drill doors for handles, cut and place 3/4 trim around the door and header to hide reveal and track.
By-pass a little less work , pockets a whole lot more. 15 minutes + , You left out the closet shelf, pole , sockets, and shelf supports, each takes a few minutes assuming studs or blocking was placed where they should be. That assumes a single shelf, pole, double or triple time if more shelves and poles. Install of base and cutting of base depends on out of square corners left by framers, rockers, scraping excess mud from behind base so it lays flat , shimming it where needed, need to plane bottom of base to hit floor, coping inside corners. But 25-30 minutes is good if conditions are good, if not add minutes. Window surround and door trim , meet all the same conditions for the door openings, plane to match surrounding wall surfaces, plus add for cutting sill with ears, parting bead, head, crown with mitered corners, apron. Not that what you say can't be done but it depends on pre-existing conditions and scope of work. Oh and I don't smoke the doobie so I will gain speed as the day goes on , not lose it.
;-)
They can't get your Goat if you don't tell them where it is hidden.
For me I think it'd probably be more like:Hang 2 doors and case: 1 hour.
Base room 1 - 1 1/2 hour
Window 30 minutesSo actually maybe three hours give or take. This is assuming sheetrock is flush to window jambs (hardly ever is) door rough openings match width of door jambs (again I hardly ever find this condition either) No huge gobs of mud at bottom of wall that need to be chopped loose. And standard tract house casing. Like I said I'm a slow poke. But that doesn't matter anymore because I don't do it for $$ anymore. I just tell other people how to do it.
"I've seen guys freak out because they have a rough opening 1/4" too small or too large. They can't seem to get it through their minds that the final frame will float in the rough and its ALLOWED and intended to be inexact." From your previous post on framing.
"Lets break it down for fun in minutes. Tell me which item I'm way off on."
"set prehung door 5 set other door 5precut 12 casings 12nail 12 casings 24" Etc.
Maybe you're off on the framing. If it isn't precise it adds time to the trim work, lots of time. While the size of an RO can be off by as much as 1/4" without serious consequences, the manner in which most other components fit together can make the trim carpenter's day long and miserable, particularly if he's working for a guy who thinks and pushes like you.
Like when the header and the jacks don't line up. That happens to lazy framers a lot, when they don't want to go get their pry bar to raise the header off the deck before nailing it.
You want maximum efficiency from the trim guy, give him framing that's precise enough so that things fit in the way that they were engineered to do.
or the plate line is off with the wall out of plumb...
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming<!----><!----><!---->
WOW!!! What a Ride!Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!
We don't walk out of houses with jacks and headers not lining up. I demand that they be fixed immediately when spotted. They ALL are spotted on our final "clean up" walk through which is done as we do our "punchlist" on the last day. That is basic carpentry 101. Every carpenter fails at it at some time in their career. My guys get their correction on their first wall. I'll pleasantly give them several more corrections before they get their walking papers. Getting things flush is basic fundamental carpentry...we get ALL THINGS flush unless it's physically impossible. If that is the case, steps are taken that satisfy the basic needs of the frame. There are times when 1/4" are huge and times when 1/2" slop is fine. Good framers understand those times and their differences.
Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
That is basic carpentry 101.
OK, how about culling/grading your studs off the unit? How many grades, what determines which are which, and where do you use each?
Edited 12/10/2007 9:14 pm by Hudson Valley Carpenter
One other thing I often see overlooked... crowning all the studs in the same direction.
I have no idea what unit your are talking about.We don't cull studs. We stand up the walls, then straightedge everything and fix the ones that don't meet the plane tolerances. We expect that the drywallers will do this same process again after the lumber drys out. It might be a lost art for drywallers to check for planing of the walls but the best sheetrockers used to go around and do this before they started rocking back in the days when all the trades were skilled. It's unthinkable that a house that is framed out in the weather, with damp lumber will stay true trhough the drying out process. Those member that are locked into other members tend to stay much straighter but a single member, like a stud, sometimes moves as much as 1/2" in the drying process, so I find it to be a waste of time dealing with it while we are framing. If you need to cull your studs, you might start thinking about finding a better source of lumber or simply order straight studs. If your framers can't figure out how to straighten a job after it's drying, or your sheet rockers cant', I'd suggest using steel studs. That's my 101 lesson and I'm sure our mileage will vary. Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
"I have no idea what unit your are talking about." Jim Allen
That's interesting, and pretty much what I expected from him. Anyone want to tell Mr. Allen what a unit of studs is? I'm done with his jive act.
Wow!! If those are your times, Im definately not slow, probably a couple speed zones below slow.
After 5' Id still be taking off the wrapping that was stapled to the prehungs.
Your times seem extremely quick to me/ for me. Are you thinking that everything is set in the room and ready to go? Have all measurements and layout (reveals for trim, locating studs, etc.) already been done?Live by the sword, die by the sword....choose your sword wisely.
Wow!! If those are your times, Im definately not slow, probably a couple speed zones below slow.
Remember, Blue is a framer, don't know that he can do this stuff in those time allotments.
IF he can actually do it in those times then he can probably earn $10-12 an hour trimming out those cheap azzed trac homes that they are putting up all over the Austin area!
Doug
Those are not my times. I'm a framer and I'm very slow at trimming. I'd certainly be shooting for those times though. Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
Don't shoot for those times.
It's a whole different world at the other end Blue.
If you give half a damn about doing things right, common sence would tell you that it takes longer than 5 min to hang a door.
Remodeling Contractor just on the other side of the Glass City
Why should it take longer than five minutes to hang prehung door?I've hung many of them and I don't know where all the extra time is needed. Maybe I'm doing something wrong. You tell me. Here's what I do.I nail the hinge side tight with one or two nails. Of course I'm shooting them in with air. Since I've already checked the rough frame for plumb, I then check the margin for uniformity along the top. If it's perfect, I shoot a nail into the strike to hold the strike jamb while I retrieve some shims. I then shim it in a few places and check for uniformity. If its all perfect, I continue shimming and nailing. I think chop all the excess shims off with my power saw, knife and hammer, or whatever. I nail the hinge side securely.On most head jambs, I don't shim or nail if it's under 36". I don't mind putting shims up there but I don't think they are necessary. I'm not trying to save the 30 seconds that it might take to put them in. I prefer to have less holes in the finished trim. All of this takes me more than five minutes because I don't trim every day for a living. If I did, I'd certainly be thinking about how to streamline the entire procedure. I'd have a small cart on wheels with my nail gun and shims and mitre box. I'd be a door installing fool and each one would be perfect. Should I add more shims on the head jamb? Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
So, could you hang 96 doors in a day?
That's only 1 door every 5 minutes for an 8-hour day. And then after you streamline the process, maybe you could ramp the rate up to several hundred per day. You could single-handedly hang doors for an entire sub-division all by yourself in 1 day!
Yeah, I'm being smart-alecky, but I think you're over-simplifying. There's a lot more to hanging a door than driving a few nails through the jamb. Unless, of course, the door is being hung on a a television program. In that case, it takes all of about 17 seconds.
Don, if there were 96 openings lined up and 96 doors standing next to them I probably would be shooting to go home early. I'm not saying that I would succeed, I'm only telling you my goal. That's how I'm wired. When you add the setup time for tools, sorting time for finding the correct door, transporting the door, cleaning up and storing tools, the time spent on each door probably triples or qusruples but when you analyze the actual times spent on each part/phase of hanging a door, it's not really that much time. So yes, I believe a carpenter could hang 96 pre hung doors in a day if he had a laborer staging them and doing all the laborer type work. That is the premise of mass production. That was our premise for putting out high quality, fast framing. Do what you do best and do it your bestest.
Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
You would make a perfect mobile home plant carp.
They can't get your Goat if you don't tell them where it is hidden.
" You would make a perfect mobile home plant carp."Thank You.I'd be perfect at that job just like I was a perfect porter on a used car lot when I was 18. I looked down the line and knew I had to get all those cars washed and got down and dirty and got the job done. I was a perfect welder when I was asked to fabricate steel stanchions. I inherited a huge pile (years worth) of scrap cutoffs of varying lengths and got the entire mess cleaned up in a few short months. I ended up making so much stock that they had to lay me off even though no fabricator had ever been able to keep up with the demand.If I was a surgeon, I'd be focused on opening them and closing them. If I was doing your job, I'd be focused on getting it done faster and better. Striving for efficiency and perfection is a virtue, not something to be afraid of. Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
but there is no need to over do it...
go fishing every so often...
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming<!----><!----><!---->
WOW!!! What a Ride!Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!
Striving for efficiency and perfection is a virtue, not something to be afraid of.
Efficiency isn't a virtue, though economy of energy expended comes close. Perfection is a worthy goal but only if it's part of a path that leads to where all virtuous acts aim.
Neither of these are virtues when used as you do, to promote yourself rather virtue itself.
I don't understand how you came to the conclusion that I strive for efficency and perfection to promote myself. I work like I work because I am who I am. How many people have benefited from my efforts? You might be surprised if you stopped to analyze it. Why does a man walk? Why does a man talk? Why does a many eat? We do these things because we do them. When I shift into work gear, I work. I don't care that the guys across the street smoke while they're working...I don't have an extra hand for that. I don't care that the guys across the street skip a few nails to get done faster: I don't consider them done. I don't care that the guys across the street build something out of level or plumb: I don't consider them done and I know it takes a lot longer to build things wrong. I've experienced a wide variety of tasks in the field of carpentry and I always gravitated back to rough frame carpentry, probably because it was a great fit for my personality and temperament. It contained all the routine elements that a person who likes to accomplish large volumes of easily recognizable progress would love. A trimmer doesn't understand this just like I don't understand how a trimmer would spend all day in a room installing an oak paneled study and fret over a crack that an atom wouldn't squeeze through. His goals are different than mine but I don't begrudge him his place in life and I refuse to apologize for mine. Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
Neither of these are virtues when used as you do, to promote yourself rather virtue itself.
I'd rather read Blues' posts and learn something than listen to your sanctimonious hot air.
Still waiting to build Blues' circular stair wall with a stapler.
Joe H
FWIW I got curious what my estimating books had to say about setting pre-hung doors. 3 books, average time estimated .4 hr. That is 24 minutes a door. That is 18-22 doors an 8 hr. day. The claim being made here is 5 minutes or 96 doors a day. Now I will give that estimating books tend to be on the slow side for the times given for labor performed, but they generally aren't too far afield from reality or they wouldn't get used by both sides of the industry. I am fairly certain that nobody consistently beats the book's times by a factor of 4 1/2 -5.
They can't get your Goat if you don't tell them where it is hidden.
No one's claiming it. I've stated that it's a goal.I'm just wondering though which part of the equation is wrong. Does it take five minute to shoot a couple nails into the strike jamb? Does it take two minutes per set of shims to get the strike jamb lined up? Tell me how long you think each part should take and why it should take that long. Everyone wants to focus on the total time, but no one is speaking up about how long each component takes.How long do you think a prehung door should take to be hung? How do you arrive at your numbers? Have you ever stopped to consider how long each step of the process takes?
Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
""Have you ever stopped to consider how long each step of the process takes? "" Yes ""How do you arrive at your numbers?"" Real life experience doing doors all day long for days on end for at least part of my work experience. Which happens to also be where the writers of estimating books get their data. Real life people hanging doors have records kept of how long the task takes. This is done repeatedly until enough numbers are generated to arrive at a reasonable conclusion. How did you arrive at the 5 minutes per door? ""Does it take five minute to shoot a couple nails into the strike jamb?"" Nope, but it often takes ten to remove the excess rock , re-align the sole plates across the opening and figure out just which way the door framing is twisted and how to best compromise . Putting the nails in is the easy and fast part. ""How long do you think a prehung door should take to be hung?"" Just as long as needed to get it set properly and no longer.
I already stated and clarified my time and the work involved. I also pointed out what problems occur in real life door hanging that the door hanger , not the framer, has to contend with.
They can't get your Goat if you don't tell them where it is hidden.
"Nope, but it often takes ten to remove the excess rock , re-align the sole plates across the opening and figure out just which way the door framing is twisted and how to best compromise ."I rest my case. Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
Jim, But of course. To quote Sancho: "Your Right", How stupid of me to think otherwise.
They can't get your Goat if you don't tell them where it is hidden.
I think I'm good and pretty fast...but I only average about a door an hour to do all that needs to be done:Check swing and door sizes. 5 min.Prep openings and open door packaging 10 min.Hang door 10 min.Case door 15 minKnob set 5 min. That's 45 min and any of the above can double if something is goofed up...not uncommon in my world. I think Blue's numbers are nuts. I do fine with my times.Add set up and take down tooI have a trick to deal with rock proud of the trimmers. I'll take pics and post sometime.
>>I have a trick to deal with rock proud of the trimmers
Is this it?
View Image
No. But have at 'er!Hijack!I have a no mess method (no rock cutting):Cut a bunch drywall shims to just under stud depth (3-1/4" for instance--fits between the rock).The opening pictured here needed one shim for the bottom hinge, 2 at the top hinge and 2 & 1/3 shims at the middle hinge.If the rock is really bad, add another shim or two to all hinge locations (my level has top middle and bottom vials at typical hinge heights if the level is tight to the head).Hammer tacker works...narrow crown stapler even better.I preshim all the RO hinge sides like this in the entire house, before I set the first door.
basswood, Nice system. My painter would like that . My very large hands sweat and I am always leaving finger smudges on stain grade trim after cutting rock. Painter gets a kick out of when it doesn't pizz him off and I can never blame it somebody else on a crew because he can always identify my prints by the spread of the fingers.
They can't get your Goat if you don't tell them where it is hidden.
Thanks...it does solve the proud rock problem and is just as fast and less messy than the alternative. Sometimes I just use the little pieces of drywall shims to just get flush with the rock then use cedar shims as usual from there.We carpenters do get our mits all over the work...hands like geckos. ;o)
Oy, okay, we don't hang many split jambs any more since there's been a trend away from hollow core to solids, and I've got our gcs trained to recognize that flat jambs shim better than splits. Still talking pre-hung.1. We go through the door delivery and compare it to the actual ROs2. Visually inspect doors and jambs.3. Set aside anything questionable4. Call super re any missing and/or otherwise forked up units.5. Smack all door frames and toe screw tops and bottoms of jacks to headers/plates, and run 3 1/2" screws near all hinges and latches.6.Git out the sawzall! Cut back all rock and bottom plates cause of whacking, smacking and screwing.7. Make sure all previously laid flooring will be covered after all the pre-mentioned cajoling.8. Laser all openings to cut off jambs accordingly. Carpeted we just use 3/8s shims on the highest. Cutting the jambs includes taking off the packing...with some doors, this takes 15 min9. Hump the door into position... it's not always next to where the truck dropped it off10. Set the door, and shim tightly at head. Open it up, take out the cardboard spacers, open the door and see how well the hinge screws are driven... then fix them.11. Shim the warped jambstock to the twisted and non-coplanar ROs.12. Case the sucker, which, depending on co-planararity can involve anything from a minor sheetrock tenderizing to a major sheetrockectomy. Square edged stuff is the worst to accomodate, but dang, seems like what most folks are going for.13. Have I mentioned clean-up yet? I didn't think so. Framing re-adjustments, over-hanging rock, rock-tenderizing, to shims, it all adds up in my book.13. Sand the casing since it's mostly flat.14. Spend an hour and a half on a poorly
cast but really expensive Omnia handset...Jim, I know that if you had framed the house, I might finish a door in half the time, no sarcasm, I've met Jim, he's for real, but there's only one of him... I figure 1hr 20min on a simple swinging door from when I look over the plans till I walk away from the house... it's the sheet in between that costs<G> Winterlude, Winterlude, my little daisy,
Winterlude by the telephone wire,
Winterlude, it's makin' me lazy,
Come on, sit by the logs in the fire.
The moonlight reflects from the window
Where the snowflakes, they cover the sand.
Come out tonight, ev'rything will be tight,
Winterlude, this dude thinks you're grand.
We gotta get you into better frames Holly. Too bad I've laid down the tools. I can't help you now. Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
I like the idea of those type shims, but I've never seen them in MI. I'd certainly find uses for stuff like that. How do you deal with the inevitable twisted stud. Your flat pieces wouldn't take up the weird angle that often presents itself. Thinking out loud, I'd probably use your system if the studs were square to the drywall and use the tapered shims if there was a twisted jack. My second thought would be to pull out my power saw and "true" up the jack where those shims would land. I'm sure I'd try all those systems for a while till I settled into some rhythm. Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
--"How do you deal with the inevitable twisted stud. Your flat pieces wouldn't take up the weird angle that often presents itself. "I use the drywall shim stock to get out past any drywall pround of the trimmer, then correct the twist with tapered cedar shims.I still use cedar shims by the bundle. If the rock is not entruding on the opening I still favor the dense cardboard drywall shims on the hinge side as they do not compress under load of heavy doors.Drywall shims are available at most drywall supply shops and here I get them at Menards. they are handy for lots of stuff.
Very good tip Basswood! I normally like to nail the hinge jamb tight to the stud but that entails cleaning the inevitable excess drywall. YOur system accomplishes my goals in a cleaner manner. Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
Thanks.Perhaps I should submit it as a tip to FHB, or at least post in a new thread...kinda buried in the "Slow" thread.
It would be a good tip. It would also make a great photo article: simple to understand and easy to do. I like the idea of drywall shims but I've never seen them. The rockers used to walk around with routers and shave the high spots. They'd put heavy glue on the low spots and just float the board over them. In MI, we don't put any nails in the field on the walls. All the nails are hidden under the tapered seam tape.Construction adhesive will bridge 3/8" and the old guys know how to take advantage of that feature. Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
Here, even with glue, you need at least on fastner in the field, on each stud.I use the drywall shims on walls where cabinets and counters are going--quick and easy way to get a nice straight wall. Also a good way to make tapered butt joints--just shim out the studs on either side of the joint and the butt joint disappears.Ironically, I seldom employ those standard uses of drywall shims. I improvise.
I budget one hour per door to hang and trim. I'm not nuts, I'm just breaking down the actual hanging. You think it's ten minutes and I think it's five minutes. At least you are being honest about what your times are. I've never really set the clock on how long it takes me and I've probably only hung a hundred (maybe two hundred) or so, so I really can't tell you that I'm an expert at it. Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
I'm not here to argue (though I'm willing to if I think it will benefit someone), I'm here to learn and share what I can.I am not a production grunt...I described myself, earlier in this thread, as a production-minded craftsman. I hang a few hundred doors each year. The next house I trim has 33 doors and the one I just finished this week had 20.I usually hang the doors before the finshed floors are in, but I hang the jamb at finished floor height (so the hardwood floor guy or tile setter doesn't have to bother with a jamb saw--unless the floor is not level--then they get to cut one side). This allows the door to clear an area rug, runner, door mat, etc. with out me having to go back and cut down a door.Many jambs are so crooked that they have to be shimmed at the hinges, strike, top and bottom and several places inbetween...so the reveal/gap is even. My customers care about these details.I also sort stain-grade trim by color and grain, grain match miters when possible, and glue, cross-pin, and clamp miters. So it is clear, I am not going to win a race. But I also have call backs on only 1-3% of my jobs.I price my jobs to reflect the care I take to do it right.Here is a pic:
Excellent joint! Nice grain matching too.I didn't specify what type trim but I was envisioning paint grade. I would imagine that stain grade installations such as yours would take longer. I've spent time matching grains too and it can easily get up into hours, not just minutes. Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
Go back and look at my questions and look at the answers. I asked about how long it takes you to hang a door jamb and you answer about how long it takes to prep a door jamb. Okay...how long does it take to prep a door jamb? How long does it take to nail that hinge jamb? Once you start answering these questions in a forthright manner, we can get down to the nitty gritty of the discussion. I'm not saying that there aren't extra services rendered during the trimming of a house, I'm just trying to discuss the actual time it takes to hang a pre hung door. I didn't include rough frame prep, so I'll add another minute for that.The thing that I find interesting about this topic is that most people have never broken down each individual step in a process and thought about it from a time perspective. Quite often, in a discussion on any component in the building process, a time is tossed out that is sometimes ten times what I think it is. Upon further discussion, it becomes apparent that the other participant in the discussion is thinking about a lot more steps and procedures than I am. They fail to understand that I'm just trying to discuss some particular item at it's core level....not all the hoopala that surrounds it. Once a component is broken down and discussed at it's base stages, the topic can then be steered into specific time saving methods that produce higher quality installations but it's really hard to get to that discussion because most folks get defensive rather than discussing the ideas openly and objectively.I think a prehung door takes about 5 minutes. I still don't know how long YOU think it takes. I can explain my thinking step by step but I'm waiting for yours or a discussion about why my steps and their times are flawed. Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
I just wanted to throw out that contractors ask you these types of questions when you apply for a job.I called a contractor a couple of years ago and applied for a job in the paper for a finish carpenter. I wanted to work part-time and at my own convenience (all day one day then 1/2 day the next, then I'm not available for a couple of days)That was a mistake on my part. I assume many contractors are not looking for that type of employeeBut I remember the contractor asking me "have you ever hung a door?"And I said yes when I was in college I hung doors in a brand new apartment building and I got pretty good at it.He said "how long does it take you to install one door?" and I said "Gee I don't really know".I didn't want to exaggerate and I wanted to give him a conservative estimate and so I said "I guess it would probably take me about an hour"He said "You would never make it as a finish carpenter" He said "we have to move fast".I thanked him and said goodbye and I appreciated that he was nice enough to spend some time talking to me.But those are the kinds of things you get asked when you apply for a job.
Your right of course.98048.48 in reply to 98048.40
They can't get your Goat if you don't tell them where it is hidden.
And being right then it should be easy for you to explain this post in which you add up the time for trimming a room without accounting for any of that prep time. It is this post:
http://forums.taunton.com/tp-breaktime/messages?msg=98048.40
that started the ball rolling in terms of your issuing a challenge in terms of times for tasks, in the case of the post it was "trimming a room". Why don't back up and define what "trimming" a room entails to you.
Your a carp, You arrive at the site in the morning. Boss says " trim that room" Now list every task that needs to be done to complete that job, and time needed for the task until the room is trimmed.
BTW as long as were getting specific here I think the words have changed from "hanging " to "setting " and have at times been used interchangeably.
They can't get your Goat if you don't tell them where it is hidden.
I listed the exact things that a previous poster mentioned. I attached a number to each item. It's all theory anyways so I didn't think I needed to correct the previous poster and tell them that they might be missing some things. I fully understand that one room might get done in an hour and another might take two weeks. Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
I'm just wondering who's going to prep your doors for you so you can hang 96 per day. I haven't really seen that done anywhere, so naturally, I assumed that it was a part of your incredible estimate.
Because the word "incredible" is often used as hyperbole for effect or praise (that hamburger was incredible!), I will say that as I have used it, I mean unbelievable, or, in other words, impossible to believe.
On another note regarding one of your former posts in this thread: If you were a doctor, opening and closing them up production-style, as only Frederick Taylor, you, Larry Haun, and a few others would advocate, I would definitely rather face my disease with only a prayer than go to you for an operation (why not skip the anaesthetic (a time-waster) - and make it vivisection, like in North Korea). Anaesthetic - we don't need no $#%@*&% anaesthetic. On reflection, I believe that if you think that way, you could never actually get into medical school.
Sasquatch, what do you mean when you say "prep your doors'?The premise was installing prehung doors. I laid out a very specific explanation and a time frame. It didn't include any time for prepping a door. If there is door prep needed, that obviously would require more time.I challenged anyone to look at each step that I have detailed and tell me where I'm wrong. I'm asking specifically how long any challenger to my statement explain how long they would need for each step of the operation. I'm not hearing anything other than hyperbole. The question isn't about 96 doors, its about one door.How long does it take you to position a pre hung door, shoot ten or fifteen nails into the jambs and shim it all so the margins are correct? Its okay if you say fifteen, twenty, or even thirty minutes. I just want to know. If I ever hang another one, I'll time myself and even shoot a video. I'm fairly confident that it wouldn't take me more than ten minutes and be very close to five. Extra time would be allotted for unusual conditions. If the bottom plates are off the snapped line, I'd have to walk to my truck to get the 12# adjustment tool. If the rough opening is too small and the prehung door frame won't slide in with adequate adjustment room, I'd have to consider a fix. If the floor is unusually out of level (I've worked primarily on wood decks and rarely ran into this issue) then I might have to consider some adjustment on the jamb lengths. Realistically though, most openings only need a quick scraping with the side of my hammer. I don't care if they are severly twisted because I'll take up that issue with my shimmming technique. I dont care if the jacks are out of plumb up to 3/8" because I'd just shift the prehung unit to one side (I do that anyway) and leave all the remaining space on the other side for the adjustment. I'm okay with disagreement but I'd like to have a more honest discussion and that starts with facts, not emotionalism. Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
I try to avoid emotionalism too.
I am not being emotional here. Frankly (not referring to your former employee), I try to stay on the humorous side of things. I know that doesn't always carry well into my posts. I really don't want to depend on a :) or a ;) or many other clues to instruct my readers on how to interpret my posts. That would be like a laughtrack in a sitcom, which I see as a very bad thing. I'm old-fashioned in that way, although I do use emoticons rarely.
OK? ;) :) :)?
Now that we have that behind us... (:
I think maybe there was some confusion here. We started out in one place, and ended up who knows where! We were reading and writing about times without being specific about what we meant. Some tempers started to rise. People who would otherwise risk their lives to defend those they disagreed with were suddenly on high alert and in defensive/offensive mode. It was starting to get unpleasant. I started to run for cover!
You didn't move to Austin for that.
Door prep is an inherent part of door installation. Better foundation, framing, and drywall makes for less door prep. But you still have door prep to deal with even if everyone did their job just right. For instance, I have installed a number of doors that were themselves less than perfect. The worst part is trusting the manufacturer, considering modern methods, and finding out they sent you a POS - primarily because you wait until everything else doesn't work to check out the door assembly. Taking that apart and making it right is no easy task - add an hour!
I am presently in a long-term renovation of a house that was poorly framed over 20 years ago. As I have replaced doors, I have had to spend from about an hour to three hours to correct each door. I could have done this to production standards in maybe one fourth of the time, but like to get things optimal.
Here are some things I had to deal with on just one door:
Wall not plumb
left and right portion of wall near door not plumb, yet at a different angle
neither of the jacks plumb in either direction
varying wall thickness - partially due to poor stud selection (crowning) sloppy drywall to cover the problem, and lack of attention to detail (slam in those nails and go on to the next thing - getrdone!).
This is not about you being wrong. You are right, as is everyone who has posted here. Now where is the common ground?
You have been challenged on your numbers. I think this may be a case of everyone looking at the same elephant from a different perspective.
But maybe we are not on the same frequency, since I have always culled and crowned all of my lumber (almost always). There we have an honest point of agreement worthy of discussion, or maybe not.
Sasquatch, Good post Thank You. I see that some of the dilemma is that those who have done finish for a living simply consider the term " hang a pre hung door" to automatically include every part of that project. Jim wants to break it all down and we have a hard time doing that because on a one by one one basis it is difficult to do as there are no two openings the same. be the same as asking how long to put a rafter up? To get an accurate answer a whole lot of questions about the roof have to be answered first. Started out with "Trim a Room" Then some numbers got tossed out in a challenging manner. But no clear picture of the scope of the project was ever agreed upon.
They can't get your Goat if you don't tell them where it is hidden.
Sasquatch,
Great post!
Dennis
Sas....now were getting somewhere! I like discussing things like this for the sake of the discussion, not to make myself look good or bad or to make you look good or bad. We all are what we are and we all do things differently. I accept that.I also don't put in near enough lols or ;)'s. I prefer to keep my humor hidden for those clever enough to understand it. I'm one of those "dry" humor type guys.I understand that remodeling will pose incredible challenges in many ways when we are talking about hanging a prehung door. In fact, it often might be much faster to custom hang the doors and build in clever angles that will help to create an illusion that a door is plumb when in fact it might be a weird angle.So, lets talk about your messed up rough opening. If this is a new opening, I'd probably make the walk for that 12# adjustment tool. I'd cut me a block of wood and put it to work. I'm not opposed to putting a level on the opening, seeing the opposing leans and swatting the hell out of the rough plates without giving it more than ten seconds thought! I've "adjusted" thousands of rough plates in my day and just because they are cloaked in drywall doesn't give me any pause. If the jacks are a parallelogram, which is likely if they didn't get the wall plumb at one end, then of course the studs will have opposing leans. If the lean is severe, I use the 12# adjuster to plumb one of them at the bottom. This causes the drywall to be hanging in and the bottom plate to be hanging over. I'd probably use my sawzall to trim the drywall and zap the extra hanging plate too. This adjustment sounds like an extra three minutes, not counting the walking time. Keep in mind that these are theoretical times for the fixes but I can also say with certainty that I've witnessed trimmers who have fussed with openings like this for an hour or more simply because they DONT carry a 12# sledge or are opposed to using one and then attack the opening from a different point of view. Like I said in the opening paragraph...we aren't all cut from the same cloth. Personally, if I was trimming in a house that was framed by hacks, I'd probably go around and adjust every opening as the first step in the trimming process. Of course, since I've always been a foreman of some sort, I'd probably delegate this adjusting phase to a rookie and I'd give him fair warning that I didn't expect him to fuss with any opening for more than five minutes. I'd then show him how to do the first one and when it took me three minutes, I'd allow him double that. Oh yeah....I also carry a 16# sledge for the more difficult pars. I haven't worked on concrete to often but I imagine I'd need a heavier blow if they used cut nails.How did you approach your adjustments on the openings that you mentioned? Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
When I have framed while working for myself, every opening was square. This may be incredible to you, but is nonetheless true. About three years ago, on a new house, the guys installing the garage doors commented that my rough openings were perfect, and that that never happens to them. On an addition I did about two years ago, the gutter guy remarked to the HO (home owner - just so I don't get accused of violation of political correctness) that my transitions to the house were amazingly right and that he was used to making adjustments on every addition to make the gutters look good. When the HO told me about the compliment, he was happy for the independent validation of my work, and I was too.
There are many other stories. I was building for a realtor and taking a little longer to build the house because I fired my crew for incompetence. The realtor told some other builders in the area that I was too picky. We parted as friends after that house. I don't understand the great rush. I take a few days extra. Three other houses in the cul-de-sac where I built that one sat empty for a year. Mine was the first one to be occupied. The difference in my framing were only noticeable to the trained eye once the other trades did their work. I do think that if a tornado hits that street, my house will be standing. The reporters will say that it was spared. I will know different. Whenever I am in the neighborhoods, I go by projects I have built. I take great pride in knowing that they all look great and that long after I am dead, they will stand and look good.
Finding the market to be bottom-line-oriented well below my standards, I have stopped 1) working for others, 2) having others work for me, and 3) building for others, in that order.
Now I am working my way forward in a less stressful way. I worked on my last home for over a year, just improving hack work, upgrading plumbing and electrical and so on. I cleared $55K after paying the realtor - would have sold it myself but was pressed for time. That's tax-free, bottom-line money. It went into the down payment on my current home. When I am finished with the reno, I will sell it and clear about $60K. For two years part-time work, that is good money. How many houses do you have to build to clear $60K after taxes? At that point, I plan to use the money to buy a lot and build a new house I have been designing. Of course, it will definitely have location, location, location as well as lots of curb appeal. It will also be the best-built house on the block. I may just stay in that one. In any case I will not have to pay on a mortgage at that point.
To answer your question; I never allowed my crew to use a sledge except to nudge a new wall into place. Many is the time I have told someone to put the sledge back in the box and fix the problem instead.
On my current house, the door strategy was to use tapered shims. In some cases, I had to taper the back of the casings or route an inside edge so that the outside would fit over the door jamb and still look straight. I have the tools and the skills and the time, so I do the best reasonable job possible without actually resorting to cabinet-making standards.
I do not have the skills to be a good cabinet-maker. But I am enough of a cabinet-maker to be an outstanding framer. Of course, that does not leave enough room to be a very successful businessman. That does not matter because it is not my goal to be remembered as someone who was great at making money.
Great post.Remodeling Contractor just on the other side of the Glass City
"When I have framed while working for myself, every opening was square. This may be incredible to you, but is nonetheless true. "What is it about my posts that lead you to believe that I think that it's hard to get openings square?!I certainly can say the same thing about our openings in new work because the openings are square because of the system and technique used to frame walls and then straighten them up into houses. It takes MORE TIME TO FRAME THEM OUT OF SQUARE! Getting all the openings square is carpentry 102. 101 is just showing up.Sometimes I think I'm operating in a parallel universe. When I was framing I didn't know any builders that would pay us if we didn't get things plumb, level and square. When I envision using a sledge to move a wall, I'm assuming the drywaller accidently rammed it and somehow moved it 1/4" off the line or something like that. I can say with certainty that I've never walked out of a house that I've roughed leving one edge of the dooway outside of the line by that much but if I did, I'd expect the door hanger to bang it back. It only takes one hit, maybe two. Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
Jim, Can you give a short explanation of how you framed your walls that makes clear the difference in your technique from those that the rest of us see in action or use? Just a simple one story house, nothing fancy. It is what makes your way different and so fast/accurate and special is what I am looking to understand.
They can't get your Goat if you don't tell them where it is hidden.
Yes, I can explain. Its fundamentally an easy task.We put two plates together, and mark both edges of the door opening with a square. When you nail the studs, the openings are automatically parallel. You do that to every wall and after the entire assembly is standing, you plumb every corner both ways. After every corner is plumb bot ways, you straighten between every corner on both the top and bottom. That's it. Theres nothing more, nothing remarkable. When you put your level on any opening, it will be plumb within 1/8". The bubble will be very, very close...certainly close enough to hang a door without incident or pause. If that 1/8" bothers me, I bend over and give it the man's whack and viola, it's exact. I think maybe the difference is that I've never framed on concrete. We always have a square, level base (our deck) and it's just not that hard to get everything plumb, level and square. To get an outside wall out of whack it takes a major mistake and when that happens, we take the hour to fix it. I've done that...stood up a wall and found that I had hooked the tape wrong or something. It's not an easy fix. It's much easier to do it right the first time and in most cases, if I've squared a wall up wrong, I immediately see it when I start to lay my first sheet, which we do before we stand it up...so it's a very easy fix. Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
Thanks, All the same stuff the rest of us do. Secret must be in the straightening . How do you do that ? Nail to the line snapped on the floor? String line the top plates? Before or after trusses/joists are set? Maybe hand select perfectly straight stock for all the plates? Door headers....
Cut them to length using a jig for square and length so they are all perfect and won't throw the door opening off a bit one way or the other?
They can't get your Goat if you don't tell them where it is hidden.
Headers are a walk in the park DT, all you have to do is be set up for them.
I got a system that works everytime for headers and their kings and jacks.
I gang rip 4 sheets of 7/16 OSB to 8" wide. This gives me all the header fill material in a few saw cuts for an entire house. Unless it's abnormally full of glass.
Then I lay one 16' 2x12 on the saw horses, then two 8' pieces of my header fill, then another 2x12 header. You have a loose header sammich laying on the saw horses.
I make sure both ends are in line and shoot one nail in that end. Then I measure for my header length. Using my big 12" speed square I make my line and then nail off the header I measured staying 1" from my square line. Then before I cut I put a starter nail on the other side of my square line. Then I break out the Bigfoot and cut the header sammich to size and it's perfect everytime.
I continue this until all my headers are cut. I have a list of lengths and usually spend 2-3 hours on an entire house full of headers. I am doing this while the crew is laying out plates and make PT's and corners.
After the headers are made I nail all the kings on, nothing out of the ordinary there. Then I slide a jack up to the header and make a line using the bottom of the king. Using the saw make the line disappear and you have a perfect jack each and every time. No tape and no square, you'd be amazed at the speed and accuracy.
By mid afternoon I have all the windows and doors built, minus sills. I put those in after the assembly is nailed to the plates.
All in all we spend an entire day doing prep work, but the next a whole floor lands on a subfloor. Thats when HO's love you.
Woods favorite carpenter
FKA- Stilletto
Edited 12/15/2007 12:44 pm ET by MattSwanger
Matt, I do pretty much the same. Depending on what we have to use for headers. 2 x 6 walls require the same approach. They are the norm here. I don't have a Big foot, I have a 14" beam saw so I can cut a 6x with one pass. Same concept, different tool. When standing walls do you and Jim remove the sole plates before or after standing walls? Put trimmers in before or after standing the wall? I am trying to learn what Jim does that is so much different that his houses do not require the finish carp to have to deal with any of the issues that all the rest of us seem to. Maybe it is that I haven't run across many who could reliably cut every cut perfectly square and exactly on the mark all day long when in production mode. Heck I have a hard time finding enough straight stock to lay a header up without fighting crown, twist, and variation in thickness that all affect the final product, and I sort my lumber looking for that stuff I do use.
They can't get your Goat if you don't tell them where it is hidden.
By trimmers do you mean the cut stud that bears the headers weight?
If so those are the ones I slide up to the bottom of the header and mark at the bottom of the king. This gives me a square line that is exactly the length I need. I make the line disappear with my saw blade and it's perfect fit. I nail them in before I even nail them into the wall plates.
My frames seem to turn out good. I frame them with the thought that I might have to trim them, because more often than not I do.
I tell the sheetrock hangers to not glue and screw around windows and door assemblys, I cut a piece of scrap stock to use as a test jamb and shim the board to fit the test jamb. Then I screw off their board through my shims. Takes a few minutes but plaster can be very uneven so I try not to fight it and this works for me very well.
I've gotten alot of compliments from subs that follow me, doesn't make me special though. I have made mistakes before and I have had to fix them.
Woods favorite carpenter
FKA- Stilletto
Matt,
Yes those are the trimmers. i am just asking questions to find out what if any thing is different in the framing techniques. I like the idea of the gauging block for the windows, that would work like the old plaster grounds that were placed and wet plaster finished off to the ground. Always gave a good tight fit for trim if the plasterer paid attention. Tape seams falling into the window openings is always a problem. And yes, framing as if your trimming it will help alot! One of the reasons I am an advocate of the ground to spit and polish state. If you have to face your own screw ups and " Close enoughs" as you progress through the project you figure out that it isn't close enough until it is in the condition you would want it to be in when you return for the next step.
They can't get your Goat if you don't tell them where it is hidden.
"One of the reasons I am an advocate of the ground to spit and polish state. If you have to face your own screw ups and " Close enoughs" as you progress through the project you figure out that it isn't close enough until it is in the condition you would want it to be in when you return for the next step."
Now if more people could just understand that simple idea!
A number of framers I know here leave the trimmers out until after everything is framed, then they go around with a skil saw and cut plates out of doorways using the edge of the sole plate of the saw as the 1 1/2 guide for the width of the trimmer. I have done it and it works , but for me to be happy with that way I always toe nail the trimmer to the sole plate and then into the header.
They can't get your Goat if you don't tell them where it is hidden.
It's hands down the best way to learn the "full" trade not just specialize in one thing. I have had to face too many "can't see it from my house" "close enough" BS to make me think twice about making sure a frame looks like rough furniture.
This resounds in almost all aspects when I frame because we install the siding, roofing, trim and cabinets in many of the homes we frame. Others had a hard time catching our price. Becaue we built it and know where every stud is in the place.
Almost like heaven to a carpenter, to walk into a home and know where to find lumber behind sheetrock. Searching for it is non existant.
I am not any speed demon, most here would be cashing their check when it came time for us to sheath a roof. Theirs pass inspection like ours. Whats important to me is that I know I did the best I could on every single nail when it's all said and done. All I do know is our work is through and complete, my trim jobs go very easy and relatively hassle free.
I score the plates at door openings during the layout stage. About 3/4" saw depth on the bottom. Then when I go to cut them out my sawzall blade doesn't hit the subfloor. Probably a waste of time to most, but it matters to me.
Through bolting stringers is another thing I do, haven't seen anyone else do it. But I sleep great at night knowing that nothing is going to move. Probably a reason I had a rep from the State of Michigan stop by and take pictures to try to update codes. Maybe, maybe not.
Woods favorite carpenter
FKA- Stilletto
Matt, I have done the scoring of the bottom plates as well. Still use it on slab builds. That is quite a compliment to your skills to have a state rep come by and take a tour . Kudos to ya.
They can't get your Goat if you don't tell them where it is hidden.
You have any questions about your accuracy on frames, ask the guy who is installing the fiberglass batts in the walls.
They will tell you if everything fits as it should.
I still mark both sides of a stud on my plates, if I can't convince a stud to be square to the plates it gets get into pieces elsewhere. If the stud can hit those lines and stay there I don't want it there.
Woods favorite carpenter
FKA- Stilletto
Whenever I build anything, I create a CD with pictures of all the framing. This is given to the HO to be used as a reference for the time when it will be needed to save money, time, and resources.
I am just completing a year-long project of rebuilding a master suite in my home. I have over 300 photos of the entire process. This will be given to the new owners when we sell. It is so easy with a digital camera.
I have even taken extensive pictures of houses being framed in my neighborhood. Because of legal issues, I am careful with what I do with these photos.
On my street, I had one of those situations where I liked the framing on a new house, so last year at about Christmastime, I gave a CD showing the complete framing photos of their house to my new neighbors.
I hope, since the framing was well done, that the pics will only be used to make future modifications easier.
Without a doubt pictures make anything later easier.
One day I was crawling around 18" of blown cellulose insulation to measure for trusses for an addition project and thought it would be nice to know who built the trusses so I didn't have to measure like I was.
Right then I decided to staple the site delivered truss package right above the attic access hole in a zip lock bag. A just in case time capsule. It will make someones life easier down the road, whether its an additon or a tree damages a house the package is right there for quick reference.
Woods favorite carpenter
FKA- Stilletto
More people should think that way.
We've finally solved the mysteries of framing rough openings in new work to tolerable levels. I suspect we all agree that it's not really that hard nor would one man's technique take any considerable amount more time than another. The entire discussion morphed from the question of how long does it take to hang a prehung door in new work. Again, I think it's been established that the time differential for new work vs remodeling can be substantial. Anyone other than a rookie understands that. My question for remodelers leads me to this? Given that the rough openings can be as much as 1/2" out of level and the frames can be leaning so substantially that a pre hung door would be a problem: why would a remodeling carpenter use a prehung?! Wouldn't it be much simpler for a remodeling carpenter to start with wider jambstock and simply scribe the jambs to the existing walls? Then, by carefully taking measurements from the narrowest plumb measurements, simply custom cut a slab door down to easily hung proportions? It's been a long time since I've hung my own doors but I don't remember that it was all that difficult when I had all the correct tools: smooth planes, butt templates, door knob drills, chisels etc. In this day and age of better power tools, I suspect that it would be even easier. I haven't done much interior finish remodeling since the 80's so forgive me if I'm asking the wrong question. I did hang my fair share of them early in my business career simply because it was what I thought everyone did and I could save $10 on the parts vs pre hungs. Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
Edited 12/16/2007 2:00 pm by Jim_Allen
Actually, I do prefer to make the whole thing from scratch. This is what I am doing now. I buy solid doors, rather than the foam core crabp. The sound of the door as well as the sound it cancels out makes it a good investment - kind of like hearing the door close on a quality-built automobile.
Sometimes, you get into a situation where you have bought a door and started to install it and then find out the problem is too big.
On one door last year, I found it easier to remove the casing from the frame, recut the angles, and reinstall so that joints were tight. Only a very picky person with a square or laser would be able to discern discrepancies. With poor framing, it often cannot look good to make doors square, plumb, etc. You have to achieve a compromise that looks good to the eyes.
Furthermore, cutting the door with your EZ or Festool to be out-of-square to look good would be my last resort.
Finally, 1/2" out of plumb is probably standard and often exceeded in my experience. This does not apply to older houses.
I did an addition a while back where the neighbors got involved in progress and critiquing on an almost daily basis. This was rural job. The 84 year old farmer who helped with pouring the foundation and was there for much of the project to keep an eye on the work remarked that my project was the only one he had seen that was square and plumb. He said also that when he had had someone in his house a few years ago to do some work, the tradesman had remarked that he had never before seen a house that was truly square and plumb all around. The house was about 100 years old, I think.
They used to have a different standard.
I can walk into any new house with you with a level, a laser, a plumb bob, or whatever - and I will point out problems that should not be there. They will be visible to the naked, trained eye - the measuring devices are only necessary to prove the eye's judgment.
You don't need me for this. Just walk into a new McMansion in Austin, any McMansion, and pull out your PLS. Take a few sightings when the agent is not looking. Then tell me about the state of framing.
I've only walked through a couple of houses in the rough here in Austin. None of them would pass muster back in MI. There were obvious flaws that weren't acceptable. Also, I have watched a lot of different carpenter crews put up houses around me and I can say with certainty that they would not be allowed to finish a house back where I came from. If they somehow fooled a builder into letting them start a house, the builder would soon run the entire crew off on the first day. I feel like I went back in a time machine. These guys are hard workers but they continue doing the same thing without experimenting to see if something else might be easier. I don't understand that. I've experimented with every phase of the rough frame operation, even things that I knew were very fast and efficient. These guys struggle every job in the same way. I'm flabbergasted and I know they aren't making any money doing it.
Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
I forgot to mention that I have never encountered a rough opening that was 1/2" out of plumb in any direction unless it was part of a major mistake like someone nailing a partition on the wrong side of a line.
When I hear talk about openings being 1/2" out of plumb, it's hard for me to comprehend because when I'm walking through my house doing the final checks, I am surprised when I put a level on anything that is even 1/4" out of whack and of course I fix it because that's what I'm doing: looking for stuff to fix. If you are seeing stuff 1/2" out of plumb on a regular basis, you obviously are working in an area where basic framing concepts and training is absent. Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
It's all about the money. Hacks willing to work for nothing, builders who don't care hiring them and getting away with murder, financers who don't care as long as the house sells. Poor training and poor tools.
I watched one house being built two years ago. It was undoubtedly the worst house I have ever seen. The levelness of the livign room was off by over two inches from one wall to the other, The windows were crooked and the ones in the front were not lined up with the roof. The siding was pieced together terribly. It was a Gaudi. The house sold, perhaps two months longer on the market than the others.
It is my opinion that the drop in quality is a direct effect of the ever increasing transient nature of our society.Used to be that a house was bought with an eye to living there for decades (I grew up in the house my dad grew up in). Nowadays, everyone figures they are going to be moving again in a few years.No need to build for one hundred years anymore, just so long as it doesn't fall apart until the next sucker, I mean owner, has it fifteen years from now (if that long).
Rich Beckman
Oh, and it's the same old story
Ever since the world began
Everybody got the runs for glory
Nobody stop and scrutinize the plan
Nobody stop and scrutinize the plan
Nobody stop and scrutinize the planPaul Simon, 1973
I think you have identified one of the major problems. But, even if that is a reason, it is no excuse.
As a guy I once worked for said:"There are no excuses, there are only reasons in which we are not interested."
Well, I never heard him say it, but management between him and I often attributed the phrase to him....
Rich Beckman
Oh, and it's the same old story
Ever since the world began
Everybody got the runs for glory
Nobody stop and scrutinize the plan
Nobody stop and scrutinize the plan
Nobody stop and scrutinize the planPaul Simon, 1973
Edited 12/17/2007 10:28 pm ET by RichBeckman
"There are no excuses, there are only reasons in which we are not interested."
I love that! It reminds me of a story. I'll try and be brief...
I overslept and got to school late. Got sent to the principal's office. There's a line of other late students waiting to see him. When it's my turn, he asks me "what's your excuse?". I said I didn't have an excuse. He looks at me like I'm being a wise guy and waits, so I said "there's a reason, but it's not an excuse" (I'm laughing now just thinking about how ridiculous that sounds). But I was serious.
Exasperated, he says "ok, what's your REASON". I said "I overslept" Keep in mind, I'm actually serious. I'm sure he thought I was playin' him. I got detention as deserved and expected. Of course I did, because I didn't have an excuse... only a reason in which he wasn't interested.
"Poor training and poor tools."I think you confirmed that we are working in parallel universes. In MI, I've driven through subdivisions and seen as many as fifteen cranes and that many Skytraks on framing jobs. Just about every framing contractor has (had) one or the other or both. In fact, one of the first questions the builders asked was "how large of a crew" and "Do you have a lift?". Without both of these, they normally wouldn't bother getting your bid. Of course, in MI, I don't think there's much of anything anymore other than cranes parked. Mine is. Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
This is a good way to use up the wall braces at the end of the framing process. I have felt the same way as you about the toenailing, because no matter how many nails you put into the jack studs (trimmers), they just don't feel secure enough to handle a door over many years of use.
In my mind, the jury is still out on this.
The secret is in cutting all parts from a theoretical perspective. Also, throw away the level and simply measure everything parallel. If the deck is level, then everything should be parallel to the deck. That means, the top plates are level, so everything should be measured from the top plateIf the outside walls are squared up, then the outside corners should be plumb. We measure everything parallel to those points. Heres a picture of a squared up wall, getting sent up to be set to a snapped line. Everything about it has been built from a theoretical perspective. The installed overhang has been built and firmly attached and it provides incredible rigidity to the top plate. It takes considerable effort to move the top plate out of straightness and keep it there when the 12" soffit system is stabilizing the wall from the side. You are looking at a 32' wall and it will flex underload but will want to return to it's originally built position as soon as the forces are released. Once this is standing vertically, the most it will be out of alignment is about 3/8" in the middle. One simple push with a small brace will straighten the entire wall. 98 times out of a 100 I can do this by eye with no problems. A quick check in the middle of the wall, with a level, after straightening confirms that the wall is in alignment with the bottom snapped line. Of course, care must be taken to snap straight lines and that sometimes is the bigger challenge when working outdoors. The key to getting a uniform straight and plumb job is getting the outside walls perfect. The pre-installed overhangs make that job significantly easier but it's not rocket science either way. When I'm straigtening, by eye, I ask for and get adjustments as small as 1/32" because it just doesn't look straight till it is. I've often mentioned that I don't make too big of a deal out of culling studs, but I DO MAKE A BIG DEAL OUT OF CULLING TOP PLATES!!! I insist that both top plates be relatively straight: no s curves allowed, no matter how slight. We use the bad stock on the bottom because it can be toenailed back and forth to the line. All straightening is done before joists are set.We do our door and window headers in place. I used to build them all on the bench like Stilletto but I abandoned that when I switched from hand pounding to nailguns. Now, we frame the studs and lay the header stock on top of the framed wall, lining up one end with the king stud. I use my manly framing square to mark a line with the opposite king stud and then cut the header without moving it. It should drop into place if I've cut it right. I slap a filler in and slide the next piece on top of it and repeat the process. After pulling everything up tight to the top plate, I nail the parts together and 99% of the time, it's a perfect fit. The bottom sills are cut in the same way. If we have layed out the king studs wrong, that opening will be wrong forever because we don't pull out our tapes for cutting the headers and sills. We do measure our cripples and cut them all the same. This insures that the sill will be parallel with the bottom plate. If the king studs are straight, I normally eyeball my header cuts and eliminate the use of the framing square. The straight studs provide me with a visual that works for me. If the studs have a bow in it, even if it's slight, that visual prevents me from making a square cut. Don't ask me why....I can't explain it, all I know is that is how my motor skills work. I think it's important to understand that our procedures work because we have done them day after day, every day of the year. We don't install shingles one day and frame the next....we frame every day and because it's all very simple mechanical processes we all quickly become very adept at it or we move on to different carpentry careers. If a framer can't cut a simple 2x4 or 2x6 stock square, by eye, there is something wrong with his saw or blade...it's that simple. Occasionally, a bark edge will fool the motor skills but in most cases it's a very simply executed cut...and it works. Most of us can spot a header out of level by 1/8" without giving it second thoughts. We all can see cuts that are out of square too. A cut that is 1/16" out of square on a 2x4 is plainly obvious. We'll still nail it in, but we aren't ignorant to it. Fun discussion...it brings back memories. Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
Ok. Nothing new there. Never had the pleasure of a perfectly flat deck to work on , and I have striven to get them that way. Imperfect materials , bit of excess glue, crown in the joists, PT not being lazered into plane. Different dimensions on the rim joists. It is an imperfect world. add any or all of them up and one corner may be out 1/8" +/-, stand the wall and that mutiplies by the height of the wall. Short walls (less than 4' long) will magnify errors into a lot out of plumb.
The prefabbing overhangs is quite common when called for. I have done headers your way as well, and watched as it didn't quite drop in so the carp smacked it into place spreading the kings, or it fell loosely in and he brought the king stud over to it with a smack of his 8 lb helper, or he wasn't really as good as he thought and his cut was 1/4" out of square across the 4x12 so that spread/closed the kings. When laying out door /window openings do you use the trimmer(inside of opening) as the key point or the king stud? Lumber variations here can mean up to a 1/4" in the RO depending on the lumber. Nail two 2 x together , does that mean a total thickness of 3' , or 3 1/4 ", how about opening requiring double trimmers each side? that can mean a loss of 1/2" in an opening. Do you take this into account when doing the layout? FWIW I have met a lot of framers who made the claim of being able to cut a 2 x4/6 square by eye. Not one of them could do it routinely and perfectly.
They can't get your Goat if you don't tell them where it is hidden.
"FWIW I have met a lot of framers who made the claim of being able to cut a 2 x4/6 square by eye. Not one of them could do it routinely and perfectly."I think that pretty much sums up your skepticism. Perhaps if you'd toss your squares away for two weeks, and use a saw like mine, you'll turn into a believer. I haven't squared a 2x4 with a square since the 70's. My first boss wouldn't allow me to place a mark on a 2x4 and I've never let a rookie do that either. Once you get over the hump of believing in yourself anything is possible.Do you think Picasso measured every stroke of his brush? Carpentry can contain a lot more art than you believe. Knowing how to deal within tolerances is all part of the game. We don't run all the rough frame lumber through a planer and jointer, so dealing with the inconsistencies of rough dimensional lumber becomes a mixture of art and science. That's my approach. Point by point:
"Never had the pleasure of a perfectly flat deck to work on , and I have striven to get them that way. Imperfect materials , bit of excess glue, crown in the joists, PT not being lazered into plane. Different dimensions on the rim joists. It is an imperfect world."I don't understand how an imperfect deck due to crowned joist affect anything that I've discussed. If a deck is 1/4" out of level from one end to the other, it won't have enough effect on our processes to warrant discussion. In the days before lasers, I used to haul out my transit and shoot every deck after it was framed. I also rely on rain puddles to clue me in to low spots in the middle of the decks. It's very effective indicator of problems."add any or all of them up and one corner may be out 1/8" +/-, stand the wall and that mutiplies by the height of the wall."We just framed our first walls on unlevel Texas slabs. As soon as the wall was stood, a quick check with the level indicated that the outside corners were out of plumb. Since we knew we framed the wall in a perfect square, the unplumb corners told us that the slab was out of level. We framed all the outside walls, tying them together in theoretically correct assembly, then went back and shimmed up the perimeter till the corners were plumb. Steel shims and grout "fixed" the poor job by the concrete guys. In the days before I owned a transit, I used to stand up the outside walls, then shim the deck up to it till it was plumb on the corners. To this day, we still trust the walls as being true and straight and shim the deck up tight to it. "Short walls (less than 4' long) will magnify errors into a lot out of plumb." Short walls are also the easiest to replumb. I haven't met one yet that didn't yield to the 12#er."The prefabbing overhangs is quite common when called for."The prefabbing of overhangs is almost always called for and are an important component to keeping the wall rigid and straight. There are very few instances where we wouldn't pre install the overhangs."I have done headers your way as well, and watched as it didn't quite drop in so the carp smacked it into place spreading the kings, or it fell loosely in and he brought the king stud over to it with a smack of his 8 lb helper, or he wasn't really as good as he thought and his cut was 1/4" out of square across the 4x12 so that spread/closed the kings."I've never framed with a 4x12 and I'm sure I'd adjust my thinking if I was using them to create a perfect joint while optimizing my speed. The spreading of Kings, of a very small amount is meaningless. If a rough opening is supposed to be 36" and it ends up being 36 1/16" inch, it won't affect the setting of the window in any way if it is a wood framed window. In the rare instances that we've set windows without jambs, it becomes more critical to create a rough opening that is truly square. In those instances, we would not force a window open that 1/16" and would double check the RO after standing and make necessary adjustments because the rough opening is not really a rough opening, but rather a finish opening that is getting a layer of drywall. It's important for roughers to understand what finishes are going to happen and adjust their thinking to meet the needs of each frame. If a header is cut too short, I set it aside and make the next cut correct. No one is perfect and I certainly won't claim that I am. I can say that it is rare indeed that I will make that same mistake twice in a row. So, the correct part gets dropped in first, then the filler and then the "short" piece. Yes, there is an 1/8" gaps that is hidden behind the exterior sheathing and I admit that it's not perfect but structurally, its more than sufficient and I'm not losing any sleep over it. When the wall is stood up, we all see a tight fitting joint and I'm the last person to ever see that slight, meaningless indiscretion. I call that "balancing quantity and quality". I have had days where for some reason, I have trouble cutting the headers by eye. I simply pickup my square on those days and mark them. I think it has something to do with bio-rhythms. "When laying out door /window openings do you use the trimmer(inside of opening) as the key point or the king stud? Lumber variations here can mean up to a 1/4" in the RO depending on the lumber."In my system, the kind stud is meaningless. It represents a secondary mark that locates the king but the critical mark is the inside of the last trimmer. I've trimmed headers that required as many as SIX jacks, so the cumulative gain (it normally gains because of moisture content) can be significant. On most window and door openings though, the rough opening will be well within tolerances even if the trimmer is 1/8" fat. I'm somewhat anal though and I will normally smack the two parts over to align the trimmer perfectly. In my layout system, I use fat black magic markers for the center of studs and switch to thin accurate marks for critical layout components such as openings, partitions and other layout marks. "Nail two 2 x together , does that mean a total thickness of 3' , or 3 1/4 ", how about opening requiring double trimmers each side? that can mean a loss of 1/2" in an opening. Do you take this into account when doing the layout?"I don't see much lumber that causes two components to grow 1/4". That would cause me to evaluate the entire lumber package. I suspect that I am used to a much higher level of quality of rough lumber than what I hear about here. Double and triple trimmer are most used on items like garage door headers and I typically add 1/4" on the theoretical header layout for the king studs. An opening that is 1/2" smaller than theory would be rejected as incorrect and whoever framed it would be asked to fix it. The lessons laid out here would be explained in detail. I've never worked with journeymen who couldn't get the roughs right after one simple lesson. Michigan has been known for having fairly competent framing crews though. I worked with some very sharp people over the years. In the olden days, we actually earned a good wage and took pride in our work both production wise and quality wise. When I started, we were all required to carry 80 grit sandpaper for our exterior joints. Joist can easily combine to be a bit thicker because of their cupping tendencies. Care must be taken to use the best pieces for headered floor openings to insure that we have decent shaped headers to mate with intersecting components. I think this is one of the most common areas of mistakes for young framers.Excellent questions. Understanding those issues, and making allowances for them, go a long way toward avoiding the problems that they can create. That is the fundamental difference between framers that think about their work and framers that let the wood out-think them. I always told my framers that I wanted to work with guys that could out-think the dead wood. Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
""In my system, the kind stud is meaningless. It represents a secondary mark that locates the king but the critical mark is the inside of the last trimmer."" Ok , so how do you align the inside trimmer with the mark on the top plate if the top of trimmer is up to 11 1/2 below the top plate? You said you cut your headers between king studs, that would mean they are nailed in place already . Do you assemble the trimmers to the king before cutting the header? And do you cut doorways out before or after raising the walls. I see that we do the same with short walls, correcting the out of plumb caused by uneven/unlevel decks with a sledge hammer. Wracking the wall itself out of square to make it plumb.
""Do you think Picasso measured every stroke of his brush?"" No , but I don't remember ever reading a discourse by Pisacco ( Who I don't remember as being a "Cubist" in his art anyway) on how to hang doors or frame a building square, level and plumb either.
If you could refer me to a place I could find such a discourse I would be happy to read it. The reason the questions might be good ones may be that I have been doing this as long as you have, or longer. I have dealt with this stuff a time or two before. I have some small idea what to look for when it comes time to figure out why the corner is out of plumb, or the top plates are level , or the wall isn't straight. Or in the case of of dropping a header into an opening by using a hammer that I end up trying to hang a door into an opening that is wider at the top than it is at the bottom and one or both trimmers are not plumb despite the fact the wall has been plumbed at it's ends. ""I suspect that I am used to a much higher level of quality of rough lumber than what I hear about here."" Perhaps.
Although I know the mills here ship a whole lot of product back there. Had to explain to my brother who deals trusses in Detroit how to pronounce the companies names correctly. For example It is Wil "lamb" ette , not Will"a" mette.
They can't get your Goat if you don't tell them where it is hidden.
"Ok , so how do you align the inside trimmer with the mark on the top plate if the top of trimmer is up to 11 1/2 below the top plate?"I think you are referring to the possibility that the trimmer studs might be fatter than 1.5" due to swelling during the rough frame phase. We rough our headers in 2" wider than the finish door. Because of the thinner jambs, it leaves an opening that is approximate 5/8" of play after subtracting the 1 3/8" of finished door jamb thickness. A rough frame would have to shrink quite a bit to miss the tolerances available in our system. When we start our outside wall framing system, I quickly find out how fat or skinny the trimmers are. I don't make it a specific step to verify the trimmers thicknesses so I'm working on the assumption that they fall into their normal range of 1.5 to 1.6" thick. There are several ways that we build our rough openings, so the problem of fat trimmers might be dealt with in several different ways. Lets assume that our most prevalent method (on an 8' wall) calls for us to already have the header nailed up tight to the plate and when we go to install the jacks, we find they are so fat that they would violate our tolerances for rough openings. A rookie might just nail them in. I would reject them and use a full length stud from the same lift that we've already framed the wall from. Why would this matter? Because I instantly know, when I handle a stud whether it is a normal thickness or a fat one. I don't need a tape to feel this difference. If I started framing a wall and found that all the studs were fatties (I have never experienced this), then I would mentally make the adjustment when I was nailing in the king stud. I'd simply move it off the layout 1/4" in anticipation of the jacks being fatter. For various reason, I OFTEN make these mental adjustments when I'm framing. For instance, when I lay out a bay with a three jack header, I might layout all the marks as theoretically accurate, for some reason, then simply move the king stud 1/4" or 3/8" off layout when I'm framing. I can't elaborate as to why but I know I do it often. Our other common method of framing a window opening (on 9 or 10' walls) involves me cutting the trimmers to a set length and nailing them onto the king stud before assembly into the wall opening system. I do this primarily because I can't reach to the middle of a stud assembly to nail the two parts together because I'm short. When I nail the stud assmembly to the plates, I line up the inside of the trimmer and ignore the marks of the king altogether. The guy nailing at the top plate has to be aware and look down to the bottom plate to see how much offset he must make when he nails the assembly to the plate. For me, this is a normal routine procedure. If I'm ahead of the game and the king assembly is nailed before the bottom, I'll see this before I begin the cutting operation and use my hammer to open up the king before I use it as the basis of my header length. I think it's necessary to understand that once we decide to use the king as our measuring tool, we also have to become aware of how the thicknesses of our stock will affect us. This isn't rocket science but I think it falls into Carpentry 103 framing techniques. Very good questions though. I would pray that every rookie framer that I work with would ask those type of questions. It indicates a mental involvement with the entire process in a way that will lead to very fast and efficient, quality framing.We always cut our bottom plates after everything has been aligned on th floor and securely fastened. I'n not sure that we are talking about the same 4' wall situation. We don't knock walls out of square. If they were leaning, that would mean that they were built out of square and when we take out the hammer, we are squaring them, not un squaring them. Nowadays, with walls sheathed in solid OSB, they better be square before they get raised because a hammer doesn't really change them. It might lift the end on a small wall. I was thinking back to the days of foam walls with metal windbraces or further back to Celotex and let-in 1x6 bracing.Like I said, we work on level decks and if an outside wall is showing signs of leaning, it's normally a simple task to shim under the deck to level it up. Those situations tend to show up on basement walls poured in the coldest times of the winter."Or in the case of of dropping a header into an opening by using a hammer that I end up trying to hang a door into an opening that is wider at the top than it is at the bottom and one or both trimmers are not plumb despite the fact the wall has been plumbed at it's ends."My question back to you about that is this: why do you need perfect rough openings to hang door? Isn't that the purpose of leaving extra space? Do you really care if you have 1/4" of shims on the top and 1/2" on the bottom? Lastly, I've never heard of willamet or whatever you are talking about. We used to get most of the framing lumber from Canada. We had very good doug fir joist and rafters and good spf studs and plates. We can't get doug fir, or spf joist here in Texas. All they carry is yellow pine. I stopped seeing yellow pine joist in the late 70's. Frank was introduced to yellow pine this month for the first time. The only yellow pine we ever saw was #1 yellow pine 10 1/4" stock used for stair tread stock.Thanks for the fun conversation. I like discussing systems and techniques far more than politics. Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
just for your information. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Willamette_Industries Yeah , my questions aren't bad for not ever having built in Michigan among any of those better crews.
They can't get your Goat if you don't tell them where it is hidden.
I guess I was saying I do it without the sledge.
I'm a finish guy...my "club" is a 10oz. Ti model.I also leave the sawzall in the van...if I have to go back to the van for it, someone is getting back-charged. 8>{
Thats a fundamental difference between a finish carpenter and a rough framer. You guys think it's beneath your dignity to move a bottom plate onto a snapped wall line and we do it every day for a living. If we are thrust into a trimming phase, we don't know that were not supposed to fix the frame at it's fundamental level and we just do it without comment. If there is something so wrong that it requires the board to be removed, we'd also report that to a superintendent and ask them how to proceed. I've had to go back and move entire walls, with mechanicals already installed so I don't get too excited when a wall has to move 1/4" to get it plumb. I know for a fact that I can plumb it in two whacks...or about ten seconds but I'd fuss with a door for much longer than that trying to make it look good, or I'd have to hang it out of plumb and then bend the hinges to keep it from swinging open or shut. I prefer the sledge adjustment but I acknowldege that it's not always possible especially when remodeling. Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
I'm just messing with youz. Waz worried that this thread was about to die...arrogant trim guy talk is just as provacative as setting door hanging records.I gotta go play in the snow (I know you are green with envy) ;o)BTW another tip from trimland. The wood blocks I use to smack stuff around are 12" long pieces of hardwood handrail. Gripable by design (of course) and tough. I could offer more ideas about the use of handrail cutoffs...sounds like another thread again.
"" You guys think it's beneath your dignity to move a bottom plate onto a snapped wall line and we do it every day for a living."" You know Jim it is your propensity for posting comments like that one that just keep me coming back for more of your wisdom.
They can't get your Goat if you don't tell them where it is hidden.
Sorry, no harm intended. I'm just making the point with as few words as I can.I've listened to many, many trimmers with a prima donna attitude that don't think they should have to whack a bottom plate over a 1/4" or so. Instead of just getting down to business and taking care of business, they invest their energies into whining about every detail that they think should be done differently. Of course, they give no weight to the situation at all and don't take into consideration that there have been 100 people in and around the frame after the framers have left. I'd say, that more trimmers bitch about framers than give them their due, so when I come across as less than enamored with trimmers in general, it's probably because of my real life lessons learned out there in the field. I have been looked down upon many, many times by an old fart of a carpenter who thought that framers were trash and trimmers were the princes of carpentry. Respect is a two way street. Just because we have mud on our boots doesn't mean that we are idiots. No one's perfect but we all can respect each other's efforts. If a trimmer wants everything perfect about the frame, the windows set, the drywall and everything else, I'd suggest a new line of work, or just do everything themselves. It's obvious that a lot of you guys do that and more power to you. I'm just offering ways to work within an imperfect world. I'm an expert in that! Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
So, do your replumb the wall or hang the door in an unplumb wall? I replumb the wall. It takes a minute to walk to the truck and ten seconds to set a block down and slam it. Once I know that the walls will need adjusting, I walk around to every opening, with my block and hammer and fix them all before I do anything else. This would take about five minutes, maybe ten on an average 1600 sf house. Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
In a house that is over 20 yrs old, you don't replumb the walls, as this would weaken the poor framing that is already there. You must be flexible, grasshopper! Allow the walls to remain as they are. If you loosen everything up, it will look good for a while - until seasonal changes, wind, and usage turn your correction into a cardboard-like interpretation of proper framing.
On new construction, you do what it takes to get plumb. You should not ever have to mention a sledge in Carpentry 102, except to move an un-nailed wall carefully into optimal position.
I can't help but think of a guy named Frank, who was one of the most positive framers I have ever met. He would risk his life (needlessly) to complete a job. He was FAST. He was the man to call when things would not fit.
I noticed that he liked to smash top plates down with a sledge to make the corners meet. The rookies watched him up on the ladder and nearly swooned in admiration. In every case, this resulted in a destruction of one of the top plates to make it go down. He was a hero to the super. He got-r-done! Unfortunately, he ruined the structural integrity of every corner that he influenced.
"I was building for a realtor and taking a little longer to build the house because I fired my crew for incompetence. The realtor told some other builders in the area that I was too picky. We parted as friends after that house. I don't understand the great rush." There were very few times in my career that I worked for builders that didn't care about their schedules. Those builders were usually disorganized and I normally wouldn't do another house for them. It's not a "great rush" but time is money. If a builder plans on getting the house framed in ten days and it take thirty, it obvioulsy sets back the entire schedule. Quite often, the ducks are lined up and when the schedule gets moved that much, it's impossible to line them up again. As a contractor, I've also found myself thin when I fired imcompetents but it was also my responsibility to hire new competent help. I suspect that your builder/realtor didn't like the fact that you didn't have a normal sized crew. Crew size was always an important issue with most builders I worked for. When carpenters were scarce, the builders didn't have leverage and they accepted smaller crews but in most circumstances, in their minds, larger crews get things done faster...at the same square foot price. They make more money becuase they have less carrying costs and can build more houses in one year. Its simple economics. Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
I don't know if its entirely realistic, but I like the way you think.
96 doors in a day,
at that rate of production,
and my standard rate per door,
and after paying the laborer,
and 2 weeks vacation,
I would net $1.5 million per year.
Gord
Actually, it's not realistic for two reasons. 1)No one has a continuous stream of 96 doors available. 2) If they did, there would be a slew of guys willing to do the deal for hourly wages. Also, your theoretical profits didn't account for all the other factors that have been presented. The theory of 96 doors in one day assumes that those doors are next to the opening, unpacked, and the openings reasonably correct. Of course, we all know that that's what apprentices are for so your net pay would be 1.5 million, less one rookies wages. Now...just start looking for builders that build houses with multiple doors in every wall. Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
Joe, I almost got a picture thread of that technique on the last one I did. The camera man wimped out though and the picture sequence was useless. I wasn't on site for the last few circular stairs that we've did. If we do any here in Texas, I'll be sure to do a picture show. The basic premise is fairly simple to understand. On a 14 riser stair system, I design the stairs to have an tread measurement of 7". I do that so I can use 2-2x4's for the framing members on the inside of the radius. I then grab a pile of studs and drop them onto the floor very close to their final resting place. On many 14 riser systems, the unit rise is something like 7.66, so I enter than number in the memory of my calculator (the cheap $4.99 version). If the first rise is 7.66, I subtract my thickness of treadstock and that is my first "stud height". I mark that number on the notebook (the stud in the wall where I'm working) and then I start hitting the plus memory button. As each sum spits out, I write that number down.After I have my list of stud lengths, I start cutting....the longest stud first. I cut two of each size. The drops become the shortest studs. 13 studs will usually be enough to cut the 26 parts of my wall. After I get them cut, I push them all against the adjoining partition with them lying flat on the floor and bunched all tight. I have them all in order. I then pull out my wide crown staple and stich the pairs together and stich them all togehter. I staple them about 8" oc. There are staples flying everywhere! After they are all stiched together, I grab a helper and we stand the wall up and position it on the circular layout line. That's it...The inside wall is done ready for the risers and treads. When you push it up against the header at the upper deck landing, everything is perfectly aligned and ready to go. If you've miscalculated anything, you know it before you've invested any serious amount of time in the process. Note: before starting this process, the center point, along with the spokes of the arc should be stretched out and marked on the farthest walls of the stairwell. You can then plumb up from those marks to locate the other supporting members of the treads and risers. The inside portion of the wall takes about ten minutes tops unless you make the mistake of stapling the wrong side of the wall which won't allow the wall to stand up because the staples cant stretch. Been there, done that....I had to cut all the staples and push the studs up against the other foyer wall.Thanks for your interest. Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
I'd rather read Blues' posts and learn something than listen to your sanctimonious hot air.
OK, Well just don't trip over your tongue on the way to the ignore button.
WHY would you aim for those times?Remodeling Contractor just on the other side of the Glass City
I happen to believe that the trades are still skilled. I really want to find the framer who ever came back and replaced all the studs that are out of plane/plumb after the plumber, electrician , security , phone, and entertainment and HVAC are done because a drywaller wants them to. As I said I can hit 20 minutes a door, I didn't tell the whole story . That 20 minutes is with a pre-hung, pre- bored H.C. door unwrapped + ready to go , guns out, casing pre-cut by supplier, door, casing and all hand tools gathered and placed in strategic locations, lock set unpacked . Doing all that must happen off the clock in the 101 series of houses.
They can't get your Goat if you don't tell them where it is hidden.
Where are the doors? Are they in the room or am I picking them up? Are they ready to be installed or do I have to trim jambs?
Is all of the trim in the room? Is there a miter station there too or do I need to set it up? Is it one-piece casing and baseboard?
What kind of window stool? Does it need returns? Same question on the apron.
Am I working alone???
I could go on, but I think you get the point. There are too many factors for a simple answer of 2 hours. And 2 hours to trim out a room sounds more like production work than "high-end" carpentry.
If I were pressed to answer, I would probably have answered much like you, about 1/2 day. When told that I was way off, I would know that we were not a good fit because I don't do production work.
I agree , the question is one I would reply to with a question of my own. "How much does a car cost?"
They can't get your Goat if you don't tell them where it is hidden.
This is a good thread.
Moving fast is pointless if it is not done efficiently. If you jump out of the truck and go right to work, but have to stop in mid-stride to run back out to the truck to grab another tool--or worse--to the hardware store or shop...you maybe fast, but you are a FAST FOOL.
Save wasted steps and motions...like this:
Take time to set up thoroughly for the job, so what you need is at hand. This makes you "faster" in the long run.
The cutting station and materials are set up as close as practical to the areas where the stuff is installed--LESS STEPS.
I like to gang-cut "fresh," square ends, on the entire trim package and precut as many left and right hand miters as possible--at the start.
Pre-shim the hinge sides of ALL door openings at hinge heights before hanging a single door.
CAREFULLY measure everything you can, do the cutting, then install everything at once (since it all fits perfectly the first time ;o) ). Make several "recuts" on a single trip, etc.
When you find that you have trapped your air hose behind the door jamb you just nailed securely in place...QUIT for the day.
Do it right, instead of twice.
Try to keep your name off the punchlist entirely.
Do your work like you never want to go back! (no call backs)--so if you do go back it is to do more paying work, not to fix something.
Find sneaky ways to look faster than you are:
Do the less obvious or hidden work first, so when it looks like you are done...you really are (rather than spending hours or days "dinking around" when people think you should already be done).
This follows the logic of: Do the siding in the back first...finish in the front so by the time the neighbors all know you are there...you are gone--"Man, that went fast and looks good too!"
Get to the job before other subs so you get to:
Hog the best work area.
Work with out interuption, at least for a while.
Leave early.
dang, is that a voice of experience talking or what!!!
don't worry be :o)
I forgot to mention the earlybird gets the best parking place--LESS STEPS.If several subs are thrown in at once...you really want to get there first. Unload everything you could possibly need, then park park far out (or it's "Hey Dude, can you move your truck." when you are in some contorted position on top of the scaffolding nailing up crown).
When I studied business in college, we looked at a theory of Japanese businesses in industrial design, similar to working efficiently(there's a japanese word for it), but it involves reducing physical distances between workstations- layout and walking being very important.
When I worked for the Smithsonian building exhibits however, I was asked by co-workers to slow down, it was kinda like any gov't job where you're given plenty of time to do a job-museum quality was the goal and speed was not coveted- a difficult transition from private industry.
Now that that I'm out on my own, speed is very much a factor in cranking out jobs for dollars. And it's much more relevant. Compared to some others, I probably take a good deal longer figuring out the best approach to built-ins and cabinets, but experience and good production speed keeps me competitive.
Expert since 10 am.
Edited 12/9/2007 2:17 pm ET by jackplane
That Smithsonian gig sounds cool. I'm all for museum quality, but I like to make good time too. The Japanese are now schooling Americans on efficiency and quality.Much of their philosophy came from Americans like Demming (TQM) etc. that were ironically ignored by American industry. Even now, Toyota listens to it's American workers on how to build a better car and implements the ideas that work--quickly.I try to improve both the quality and efficiency of what I do--continually. I like to think of myself as a "production-minded craftsman."...be double speaking.
Great post, although I always started the siding on the back so I would have learned how, by the time I got to the front.
Sounds like you and I could work on the same house and get along fine.
--"I always started the siding on the back so I would have learned how, by the time I got to the front."That too! I always have that in mind as well, since I seldom do siding.It would be great to work with a bunch of the folks here. I worked in your state (CO IIRC) in the 90's (Loveland).Glad you liked the post.
You left out quality and quantity. If you have alot of work that is standardized you can tool up and push production without lowering quality. But if things aren't standardized or if there is only a few of them production drops way off.
i know people who brag on their speed but are short sighted. Their quality of work and person skills are lacking.
but you can't teach them that. I figure they are just not to bright. If people want to hire them go ahead.
it it what it is. and takes what it takes.
I had a painter ask me if I thought he was too slow.All I told him was "NO JUST AGGRAVATINGLY THOROUGH!"He did good work though and thats whats important.
I probably can feel your "pain" more than most of the other posts..we both have the same windows..not counting 2and 6" jamb extentions that will vary 1/4" from top to bottom window after window..8' door framing out of plumb 3/8" ..cabinets ordered from measurements BEFORE the rock was hung.(I cut 8 face frames 1/8"@ so the appliances would fit) ..done the same two jobs before..cut 1/2" off the back of a 96" pantry cabinet plus took the 1/2" rock off the wall behind it so I could hang the door ..the trim on that side is a bit skinny..the house before framed ALL the openings for the 8' doors at 96"..so for all those fellows who can hang and case 15-30 doors a day..only in a perfect world..
Each item that you mentioned would be an extra charge. All times that I mentioned assumed normal conditions. Extra charges would be billed at $65 per hour. Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
Jim,
Can't speak for Pilgrims situation but in mine I was on payroll to a general contractor who revised the original plans, had an in house framing crew (Who set the windows)and finish crew and had his project manager stand right there when the cabinetry was measured and laid out. GC insisted on the crown being done above doors and windows because he wanted the look. This is despite of being forewarned that it was going to take extra time and the final project wasn't ever going to look good because of the screw ups. Now who do you think payed that $65.00 an hour extra charges?
They can't get your Goat if you don't tell them where it is hidden.
Your situation sounds like a business relationship failure which are very common in Carpentry. It really has nothing to do with the premise of this thread though. Figuring out how to collect the money for extras is something that needs to be solved in the business folder! Good idea for a thread? I've been burned... Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
"normal" asked an old guy about that once He told me "Normal is a setting on a washing machine"
They can't get your Goat if you don't tell them where it is hidden.
--"for all those fellows who can hang and case 15-30 doors a day..only in a perfect world.."Hey, I hung and cased ONE door today! I even put a knobset on it. I also put base in ONE room too. It took 3 hours, including set up and the trim was recycled so I had to pull a bunch of nails before I could start (cut one nail with a $100 blade too :o( ).It was a short day so I got to do some long overdue organizing in the shop...nice.
Speed Kills!
A Job well done never needs to be redone"!
Were getting blasted with SNOW! both in the Mts. & the Big City! Man I Love Winter!
Yesterday the 10"rule was in effect! My Buddy came by the house & drove me up for some Freshiees!..........
Awesome!
Some people know how to live.
We even got snow here!
What year were you born?
There's yer answer. ; )
"Doubt is not a pleasant condition, but certainty is absurd."
~ Voltaire
That's one of the reasons I started wondering. ;-)
Good thread.
I've been thinking about this subject a fair amount lately, including today. Doing aluminum wrapon windows at an old house. Got to the end of the day, looked around and said what happened? Told the helper he wasn't moving fast enough. :-) He agreed.
Conclusion? Tomorrow's another day. Maybe we'll do better. If not, maybe the day after. Like Mike Smith says (sorta), I may not do another siding job for 6 months, or it may be in 3 weeks. I might be doing a foundation, or flooring, or cabinets or plumbing next week. Then I'll be slow again while I get back to speed. Oh well...
If you enjoy what you are doing and your bills are paid, don't worry about the other guy. (Most of my work is on my own stuff, and when it's not, I'm working directly for an owner. Speed is not my biggest concern.)
Don K.
EJG Homes Renovations - New Construction - Rentals
It would seem that there is no real answer. Fast for me is slow for some. Complexity of the task, and level of quality desired, enter the equation.
I feel that I move at a good pace, and I make few mistakes.
When I am thoroughly engrossed in a task, time just flies by. Some days I get to the end of the day and look around and think that a lot was accomplished, other days are a struggle from beginning to end.
Some days aren't long enough for what I want to get done.
I usually work on my own projects and my expectations about time are the only ones I need to worry about, and I am usually pushing myself pretty hard.
This project that I have been working on is for another contractor, who was being pressured to get-r-dun. That's why I was brought in, to help meet a deadline. I originally came on the project to install $50k worth of cabinets. I was given all of the trickiest projects (read - time consuming!) to complete. Tasks that took precision and experience, and a large assortment of tools.
The more tasks I was able to complete, the more they asked me to do.
I guess that's why the time issue came to mind in the first place.
An 80YO lady beats me to the finish line.
Runnerguy
and some days if they use their walker they have an unfair advantage over us...
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming<!----><!----><!---->
WOW!!! What a Ride!Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!
When I think of slow I think about the movie "Office Space" where the guy was driving to work and he was in traffic. Cars were barely moving.
He looks over on the sidewalk and watches an old man with a walker as the old man passes him and pretty soon the old man is way up ahead of him
How do you know if you're slow?
ya gotta cut yurself loose from the cobwebs at the end of the day..
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming
WOW!!! What a Ride!
Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!
I thought it was the cobwebs slowing me down..
How do you know if you're slow?
a Dick and Jane book is advanced learning fer ya...
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming
WOW!!! What a Ride!
Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!
Run Spot, Run!
I'm slow. I know this because it's not in my nature to be the fastest. I like to assess what I've done and ponder my next move. Not to excess, mind you, but I still do it. Wild horses couldn't make me speed up, either.
Since hanging doors is the example: I could never survive hanging doors at the (my) maximum rate. I'd underperform, probably get fired. If not, I'd quit.
Repetitive tasks make my mind wander. I make absurd mistakes, sometimes costly ones. Wrong man for the job.
I love puzzles and head-scratchers when the pressure's on. I guess it goes without saying that I'm drawn to remodeling, and my limited experience in new construction wasn't the best.
"Repetitive tasks make my mind wander. I make absurd mistakes, sometimes costly ones"LOL!! Yeah.As soon as I've done it enough times to be good at it, I've done it enough times to be bored with it and screw it up.
Rich Beckman
I fully understand how you and Biff think and I will not be the one to tell you that you are doing something wrong. I'm wired different though when it comes to repetitve tasks. I'm like a time studier shifting my focus onto streamlining the process and turning the entire process into a mental challenge. To me, there was never anything random about putting together a house whether I was framing or trimming. Biff mentions that he prefers the challenges of a remodel and again, I understand that. In fact, I've known for many, many years that it takes two different mindsets to effectively remodel or effectively build new. When hiring I always screened for experience and weighted the two skills as different depending on what I needed. Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
I refuse to work under a gun.
If the client wants to rush me or keep looking at his watch, I pack up and move on to the next job.
I don't need the hassle.
People hire me for my work not for how fast I can "get r done".
I aint no McDonalds.......I'm more like an Olive Garden with a 45 min wait.
MJC Woodworks
"Gentle to the touch, exquisite to contemplate, tractable in creative hands, stronger by weight than iron, wood was, as William Penn had said,"a substance with a soul.'"
Eric Sloane