Replies

1. 
   RW | Dec 11, 2005 06:13pm | #1

   No. You might get little bit of pressure drop at 150 ft, but it's not going to prevent you from doing your job.

    

   "If you pick up a starving dog and make him prosperous, he will not bite you. This is the principal difference between a dog and a man." - Mark Twain

1. 
   FastEddie | Dec 11, 2005 08:35pm | #3

   You might get little bit of pressure drop

   Not really.  In a closed system, the pressure is equal at all points.  If the gun is not firing and the compressor is not running, the pressure is the same everywhere.  The cycle time will be a bit longer.  And if you were running something like a air wrench or paint sprayer, where air is constantly moving through the line, then you might see the pressure drop.

     

   "When asked if you can do something, tell'em "Why certainly I can", then get busy and find a way to do it."  T. Roosevelt

1. 
   BillHartmann | Dec 11, 2005 08:47pm | #4

   "In a closed system, the pressure is equal at all points. If the gun is not firing and the compressor is not running, the pressure is the same everywhere. The cycle time will be a bit longer."The pressure is the same only in STATIC conditions. That is no air flow.Now your description of the resutls is correct. But as it discharges you have air flow and pressure drop. And the dynamic losses in the hose determine how long it takes to get back to static conditions, or more appropriately back to a usable pressure.But the important thing is not the static pressure, but how it works dynamically nailing the floor.

2. 
   joeh | Dec 11, 2005 08:15pm | #2

   Gun won't cycle as fast, you might want to put a reservoir tank of some sort closer to the house so the air supply is constant.

   Joe H

1. 
   WorkshopJon | Dec 11, 2005 08:54pm | #5

   Gun won't cycle as fast, you might want to put a reservoir tank of some sort closer to the house so the air supply is constant."

   Joe,

   Good suggestion, especially given they are only ~$20.00

   WSJ

1. 
   paul42 | Dec 11, 2005 09:06pm | #6

   I was wondering about the tank idea myself. I have the tank, I will find or buy the fittings I need.Thanks to everybody!

1. 
   calvin | Dec 12, 2005 12:03am | #9

   Get a two way splitter and put another gauge on it.  The stapler will run on lower pressure with bamboo, maybe 80 or so.  The finish gun you can use at the normal 95-100.A great place for Information, Comraderie, and a sucker punch.

   Remodeling Contractor just outside the Glass City.

   Quittin' Time

    

2. 
   Soultrain | Dec 12, 2005 12:05am | #10

   I might be dim, but how would a resevoir tank help?  Seems to me that the volume increase caused by adding the tank would increase the cycle time & wouldn't help with pressure loss at all.

   Do resevoir tanks do something besides hold air?

1. 
   BUIC | Dec 12, 2005 12:34am | #11

     A good tank has its' own set of regulators on it.  You can see the pressure in the tank and adjust the outgoing hose, same as on the compressor itself.

     When I do this, I'll set the comp. to 120, let that go to my tank, then set what I need right where I'm working. Great when you want to adjust the pressure a little, you don't have to go all the way back to the comp.  ...

   Buic

1. 
   Soultrain | Dec 12, 2005 03:05am | #13

   That makes much more sense.

2. 
   JohnSprung | Dec 12, 2005 11:29pm | #19

   > Do resevoir tanks do something besides hold air?

   Yes.  They hold energy.  Air compresses just like a spring compresses.  Both store energy. 

   With a nailer, you use the energy that the compressor took several seconds to store up in a fraction of a second each time you fire a nail.  The instantaneous horsepower during the time the nail is moving may be 10 to 100 times the actual motor HP. 

   The friction of a long run of narrow hose can slow the air down, which means you get a pressure dip at the gun just when you really need the oompf.  Air expanding from a nearby tank overcomes that. 

   This effect is so important that modern guns like my Hitachi 90 actually have an air reservoir built into the handle.  Maybe only a few cubic inches, but it's the reason that the instructions say that the air fitting must not contain a check valve, or there's the danger that it could fire one more nail after being disconnected.  That's why modern guns work better on long hoses than the 1970's ones did.   

   Bottom line, the OP's gun is likely to work fine without the tank.  He should try it, and if it bogs down, add the tank.  Another good thing about a local tank is that it can catch condensation and crud before they reach the gun.  

    

   -- J.S.

    

3. 
   MarkH | Dec 11, 2005 09:32pm | #7

   Can't you just try out a 150 feet of line and see what happens? I think you should be fine myself.

4. 
   QCInspector | Dec 11, 2005 10:58pm | #8

   If you have/or will be getting other air tools to use in the house that may use more air, then get a larger diameter hose (1/2"ID). It will act as it's own reservoir, and without line loss of a smaller hose you have the option of using sanders, grinders, and drills etc. Put a manifold on the end to plug several short 1/4" hoses into to avoid having to change back and forth when using multiple tools.

5. 
   dieselpig | Dec 12, 2005 02:38am | #12

   150' of hose on a decent compressor isn't a big deal at all.  Very seldom do I run a framing gun on less than 150'.  We run a 50' lead (3/8) with a three way on the end of it.  From there we branch out with 100' flex eels in 5/16".  All day every day.

6. 
   IdahoDon | Dec 12, 2005 08:02am | #14

   Wrap 500' of 1/4" hose around the house if you want to and you'll be just fine.  You're stapling flooring--not a rapid fire tool by any stretch of the imagination.

7. 
   TTF | Dec 12, 2005 10:00am | #15

   I put 1200 sf of wood in my house this year, all with my stapler. I ran 50 ft of electric cord (10 gage) and up to 75 ft of hose - it worked great.

8. 
   Hazlett | Dec 12, 2005 05:43pm | #16

    150 ft.  is  zero problem.

    I have run a 100 ft hose to a splitter---and then run a 50 ft. hose off of 1 leg of the Y and a 100 ft. hose off of the other leg of the why with Zero  problem. Done this many,many many times--- more often than not.

    won't cause any pressure drop----and in effect the extra hose is really acting like an extra " tank"

   running roofing guns wihich are firing constantly.

   Stephen

1. 
   CRF | Dec 12, 2005 08:09pm | #17

   When you guys say "slow cycling" are you referring to the gun itself or the compressor?

   My framing gun after a couple of hours "really slows down its cycle" meaning it shoots the nail, then acts like its stuck down and then will reset.  I have tried various amounts of oil.  Sometimes it seems to help and sometimes not.  I have taken it apart to clean, not dirty at all and noticed no brken parts.  Most of the time it works just great. 

   I've only had it about a year and it hasn't seen that many hours.  (Bosch Framing Gun).  Any ideas?

1. 
   Soultrain | Dec 12, 2005 11:01pm | #18

   The compressor.

   The longer the hose, the more air is needed to bring everything up to a given pressure which means the compressor will have to run longer to bring the pressure back up.

   Edited 12/12/2005 3:01 pm ET by Soultrain

2. 
   JohnSprung | Dec 12, 2005 11:33pm | #20

   > When you guys say "slow cycling" are you referring to the gun itself or the compressor?

   The gun.  Friction in the long hose slows down the flow of air, and therefore energy, to the gun.  Therefore, less oompf at the business end.   

    

   -- J.S.

    

1. 
   IdahoDon | Dec 13, 2005 06:36am | #21

   It seems there is a bit of confusion between air volume and air pressure as it relates to the function of air guns.  

   If the air pressure at the gun reaches, say 90 psi, then the gun functions at a certain level.  It won't matter if it takes 1/10 second or 2 seconds for the pressure at the gun to reach that level, it will function the same.

   With smaller diameter hose it takes longer for the pressure to build to that 90 psi than with a larger hose.  Also, longer runs increase overall friction between the hose and air moving within it, so that increases the time required to come up to that 90 psi.

   So, if you are firing a gun quickly, as with roofing, framing, some finish work, etc. then your hose should be selected to provide enough air to bring you to 90 psi as fast as you are shooting.  If it doesn't then you have slugish performance when shooting rapid fire.

   On the flip side, if you are shooting very slowly, it doesn't matter how small the hose is or how long the length of hose is, as long as it can keep the pressure up to 90 psi before the trigger is fired.

   The evidence to support this can be seen every time we plug into an empty compressor and start it up.  The pressure builds very slowly, yet that first shot is not sluggish, it's just like the second or third.

   Putting flooring down doesn't require a big hose because the time between shots is so long.  It takes time to properly possition the wood, place the stapler, shoot and reposition to the next fastener location. 

   With that out of the way, a great way to increase the amount of air the hose will carry is to possition the regulator closer to the gun.  The unregulated air travels through the hose faster than the lower pressure regulated air.  By moving the regulator further down the long length of hose, the gun reaches full operating pressure faster. 

   Good shooting  :-)

   Don

1. 
   Soultrain | Dec 13, 2005 05:53pm | #22

   "With smaller diameter hose it takes longer for the pressure to build to that 90 psi than with a larger hose"

   That's the only part I disagree with.  A larger diameter hose has more volume thus it takes more air to reach a given pressure, so cycle time would be LONGER with a large diameter hose than with a smaller one.

   The rest of what you said is true though.  Instantaneous pressure (such as when you fire the nailer) would be the same regardless of the length of hose.

   Small diameters & long lengths become a problem when CONTINUOUS pressure is needed since the friction reduces the air flow.  In these situations, you would want a larger diameter hose for long runs to help decrease the friction.

2. 
   IdahoDon | Dec 14, 2005 07:51am | #23

   That's the only part I disagree with.  A larger diameter hose has more volume thus it takes more air to reach a given pressure, so cycle time would be LONGER with a large diameter hose than with a smaller one.

   While you are correct if the hose is completely drained and refilled, keep in mind that each time the gun is fired a fixed amount of air is used, say 6 cubic inches.  With either size hose it's still the same 6 cubic inches going out and being replaced.  The advantage goes to the larger hose simply because of the reduction in friction so the incoming air flows into the hose quicker and tops off that 6 cubic inches faster.

   Outside of theoretical discussions, perhaps the most rapid fire tool commonly used in carpentry is the 7/16" crown stapler, which recycles fast enough to "machine gun" staples across plywood.  With 3/8" hose it works quite well, but with 1/4" the cycle time is longer, causing performance to be sluggish and the gun will sometimes not "machine gun" at all.

   Happy holidays,

   Don

9. 
   PeteVa | Dec 14, 2005 06:52pm | #24

   My main limiting factor has always been the amount of hose I have. The current project is 85' long, 40' wide and 35' to the roof ridge, several times I had 300' feet of hose strung over, under and around. I guess I'm just old enough that my finger moves slow and I've never had to wait for air even when we had 2 guns going for the shingles. I've never taken the time to work through all the math to figure out cfm and friction loss, probably take longer than the total of any delays I'd have if I could afford a mile of hose.

1. 
   dieselpig | Dec 15, 2005 02:55am | #25

   My main limiting factor has always been the amount of hose I have.

   I'll bet you say that to all the boys. 

   (Sorry... couldn't pass it up... you walked right into it.)