…will you allow a foundation to be before you call the concrete guys back? I’ve gone as much as 2 in., but I didn’t like it.
Andy
“Never try to teach a pig to sing. It wastes your time and annoys the pig.” Robert A. Heinlein (or maybe Mark Twain)
“Get off your dead
“Everything not forbidden is compulsory.” T.H. White, The Once and Future King
Tips for picking the right paintbrush based on paint type, surface, and personal comfort.
"I have learned so much thanks to the searchable articles on the FHB website. I can confidently say that I expect to be a life-long subscriber." - M.K.
Dig into cutting-edge approaches and decades of proven solutions with total access to our experts and tradespeople.
Start Free Trial NowGet instant access to the latest developments in green building, research, and reports from the field.
Start Free Trial Now
Replies
Hi Andy, I tell them beforehand I will accept no more than 1/2".
You can deal with more, but why should you? It's not rocket science.
Don't know if I would call them for my next project.
All good points.Andy
"Never try to teach a pig to sing. It wastes your time and annoys the pig." Robert A. Heinlein (or maybe Mark Twain)
"Get off your dead #### and on your dying feet." Mom
"Everything not forbidden is compulsory." T.H. White, The Once and Future King
Yeah, tell them within 1/2" square and they'll make it 2" out of level.
There is no absurdity that human beings will not resort to in order to defend another absurdity. -- Cicero
good one Dan!
Well, we do have to preserve order in the universe.
Andy,
"How far out of square will you allow a foundation to be before you call the concrete guys back?"
Well Andy, that's a function of how much you still own him. . . ;-)
http://www.constructionforumsonline.com.
It depends on how much weight is on this wall, a little decoritive bump out. Or a wall with trusses and a point load on it. Either way if you can afford the time you should try to get him back regardless.
I thought you were the zen deck king now. What are ya doing worrying about the squareness of foundations? LOL
1.5"
C'mon Andy, we don't wan't to talk about out of square stuff here............give us the back story!!
Who screwed up what for who and how much?
Let us at him!
[email protected]
Which begs the question: 2" in how many feet? 2" in 10' is a tear-down and re-pour; 2" in 70' is a negotiation....
I've knocked 20% off a concrete sub's bill for being 1½" out of level over 30 feet; I simply billed him back for the extra time it took me to grind and shim to get the frame sitting level (it was a pour-under and we had to drop the existing house back on it).
Dinosaur
How now, Mighty Sauron, that thou art not brought
low by this? For thine evil pales before that which
foolish men call Justice....
it bother me to hear post like this, we pour within a 1/8 square every day, and with in 1/4 in ten feet level. Its not hard to do, you just got to want to do a good job.
That's what I was sayin.
'Me not built for pretty - Me built for strong' TM
I check personally for square and level or have someone I can depend on do so. Also never let anyone use your transit, or let it out of your sight or possesion.
I check for square and level before I write the check.
'Me not built for pretty - Me built for strong' TM
I bought my own level , so nobody at my company can even ask to borrow.
If I'd had you pouring that foundation, there wouldn't have been a problem. Where the heck were ya when I was taking bids? ;o)
The guys who did that job were the low bidders: $10/linear foot of form plus cubic. I didn't know them but they 'showed' well on the meet and could schedule it within a day of my excavator finishing up. So I went for it.
But besides what I mentioned, there were other issues I didn't see until it was too late: old, torn-up forms that left the walls looking like the back side of the moon; worn out lock plates for the ties, so the forms spread in places and ate up more concrete; they hired a guy with an ancient 3" pump and everytime it clogged they dumped a good half a yard on the ground uncoupling the hose to clear it; stuff like that.
All in all, I spent about 2 weeks fixing what they poured. Maybe I've learned to be leery of guys with a low price and a wide-open schedule since then. Ya think...?
Dinosaur
How now, Mighty Sauron, that thou art not broughtlow by this? For thine evil pales before that whichfoolish men call Justice....
This brings up another thought. I see a lot of people asking questions like this and I have to think that a lot of these problems could be avoided by having a frank discussion with the concrete guy before anything gets poured. I realize that a lot of framers don't get in to the process until it's too late, but expectations must be laid out, and agreed to, before the concrete is poured. The guy or gal that's paying for this must make it clear what is expected as far as tolerances. Some people are just used to doing shoddy work and getting paid for it.
I think you would probably see more attention to detail if the contractor knew he may not get paid and could be liable for a teardown. As someone else said, this is not rocket science. You need to attend to details right from the start or it creates problems all the way up the line. I always check forms before anything gets poured by another contractor and I've found lots of mistakes which were corrected before the trucks ever showed up.
I can't think of anything worse than having to tear out concrete in a situation like this.
Thanks for the replies, folks. Yes, I'm writing about decks these days. No, this has nothing to do with decks. Believe it or not, there's no back story. The question is hypothetical, caused by reflecting on some of the jobs I've done.
And as Dino says, there's a big difference depending on the distance. I just ordered a copy of NAHB's Residential Construction Standards Manual. That should answer the question and contribute greatly to my geekery.
BTW, I did my own foundation last time, with ICFs. Dead level, and within 1/4 in. on the diagonals for a 28 x 40 rectangle.
Andy
"Never try to teach a pig to sing. It wastes your time and annoys the pig." Robert A. Heinlein (or maybe Mark Twain)
"Get off your dead #### and on your dying feet." Mom
"Everything not forbidden is compulsory." T.H. White, The Once and Future King
We have the NAHB guidelines and use them in our Contracts, but I don't really like it.The standard, at least in our copy (3rd edition) is a triangle with legs of 12' and 16' shall be no more then ±1".That's akin to your 28'x40' slab being off by 4-3/4". I feel that is too much.We've never had an issue arise, to my knowledge, that required invoking the standard, but I've always felt funny knowing that a savvy client could see examples like the one above or the accepted 3/8" out in 32" standard for plumbing walls.
Jon Blakemore RappahannockINC.com Fredericksburg, VA
Tolerances should always be the limits of what you can measure. For instance, on a 30' by 48' foundation with a tape which measures to the nearest 1/8", then the dimensions would be 30' +/- 1/16" and 48' +/- 1/16" since you can easily guess or see the halfway point.
The diagonals must also be the same.
~Peter
Not to bust your bubble, but you might be a little dissapointed with the NAHB Construction Standards. I thought their standards where a little low. Hey, maybe Im better than I thought.
Once you get it, would like to know what you think of it.
For out of square, when does it becom a structural stand point? How much of your bottom plate/ mud sill can you have hang over the foundation before you lose bearing strength?
Live by the sword, die by the sword....choose your sword wisely.
Odds are I will be disappointed in their standards, which I would guess are mainly developed to ease the lives of NAHB's main constituency, big tract builders. Not that I'm cynical or anything.How far can you hang a floor over a foundation? How big a cantilever will that particular floor system support for the given load? Most houses I've built could easily have been cantilevered a foot beyond the foundation, so an inch or two doesn't worry me at all from a structural viewpoint. Aesthetics is an entirely different question.Andy
"Never try to teach a pig to sing. It wastes your time and annoys the pig." Robert A. Heinlein (or maybe Mark Twain)
"Get off your dead #### and on your dying feet." Mom
"Everything not forbidden is compulsory." T.H. White, The Once and Future King
I got the NAHB Guidelines the other day. You're right about the standards being low. Some are reasonable, but OMG. No wonder builders get a bad rap, if NAHB's standards are the way of things. There's not a poster on Breaktime who turns in such poor work as NAHB would pass.Here's an example - They allow 3/4 in. of standing water in a crawlspace. Another - Drywall cracks greater than 1/16 inch are considered excessive.Another - Wood framed walls shall not be more than 3/8 in. out of plumb over 32 in.Andy
"Never try to teach a pig to sing. It wastes your time and annoys the pig." Robert A. Heinlein (or maybe Mark Twain)
"Get off your dead #### and on your dying feet." Mom
"Everything not forbidden is compulsory." T.H. White, The Once and Future King
Andy,
When I first started working, the framing crews here at Pioneer (who were hourly) did the foundations, flatwork, framing, siding and a few of them could trim. And they did all pretty well. They are all gone now.
Since '03 we haven't done many (1 or 2 total) foundations, but last spring we were getting slow so we did the two foundations for two presales we lined up.
It was myself and Matt and we did two fairly large foundations. They were the same Mascord plan with just a few differences. http://www.mascord.com/plan_details.asp?PlanID=22158A&PlanGraphicID=3577&np=true http://www.mascord.com/plan_details.asp?PlanID=22158
They were about 70' by 58 or 59'. Matt had never done concrete work and I was rusty. We set them up very quickly and poured them and they were really accurate. I wasn't so confident. We checked square with a 200' tape and the PLS90 and they came out really accurate. With laser tools being less expensive, I don't see why foundations end up being off so much so frequently.
Fast forward to this summer and we did two frames on subbed foundations. The first was right on. The second was out 1 3/4" and it wasn't a large foundation. 59' x 38' or something roughly.
The next job we do, we'll be doing the foundation.
Jasper
View Image
Lot 30 Muirkirk
Willard
View Image
Lot 35 Muirkirk
Did you use plywood for the forms or rent form panels or what?I've thought about doing some foundations before, but, other than using ICF, I can't come up with a good plan of attack.
Jon Blakemore RappahannockINC.com Fredericksburg, VA
We have quite a few of the MDO 2'x 8' panels. In 03' we set up 5 footings and poured (placed) in an afternoon. 2 of them were basements. I think we had enough panels to do 1 basement and 2 of the 2' walls. I can't remember, but we've practically got enough panels to go into business as foundation guys.
As long as its 2' walls or less than 8'. I haven't been the lead guy on basment walls, but I think we could do it without too much trouble.
Tim, I've read your stuff for years, and that kind of accuracy must be second nature to you. I once worked on a house where the mason got the garage walls 4 in. out of parallel. Long story, but we fought that all the way up to the roof shingles. In the end, nobody but us tradesmen new.Andy
"Never try to teach a pig to sing. It wastes your time and annoys the pig." Robert A. Heinlein (or maybe Mark Twain)
"Get off your dead #### and on your dying feet." Mom
"Everything not forbidden is compulsory." T.H. White, The Once and Future King
It is possible to build a 4 sided trapezoid (As opposed to the rectangle it was supposed to be) that has 2 sides of the same length , two sides of unequal lengths( By 1' )and still have the diagonals measure the same and no 90 deg. angles. And yes it is possible to frame on top of that mess and hide it. Don't ask where the foundation guy is buried. I sent him looking for Hoffa and he hasn't returned yet.
Edited 10/1/2008 12:45 pm by dovetail97128
Timuhler,
"With laser tools being less expensive" can be a problem, too.
Last year, I poured an ICF foundation and then left town for a couple of weeks. We checked the level with an optical autolevel twice before the pour - two different setups - and once after the pour, just for fun. We got the same result every time - + 1/8" (Integra-Spec - no settling when you pour)
Along comes the framer with his shiny new $14 Chinese laser torpedo level and announces to the homeowner that my work was off by something like 2" over 30' amd he has to spend unspeakable numbers of hours shimming the floor framing to make it good.
I never did go back to check it out. It was a done deal by the time I got back to town and it seemed a bit pointless.
I have never yet seen one of those cheap lasers that was accurate within any reasonable tolerances over much more than its own length.
Ron
I'm with you. That is why I used the phrase less expensive. For $300-1000 you can get a good tool that is accurate. Lasers aren't so expensive that you only see them on commercial sites.
So if I was a framer or concrete guy, I'd buy something like the PLS 360 for less than $400 and have nice flat foundations that are level.
To get square, I'd buy a cheap Construction Master calculator to get pefectly square or if I was doing stepped work, I'd buy the PLS90e
My point was just that lasers aren't out of a professionals price range.
They allow 3/4 in. of standing water in a crawlspace.
How much could another inch of gravel cost, fer cryssakes...?
Another - Drywall cracks greater than 1/16 inch are considered excessive.
I think that's defined as a level 1 finish.
Another - Wood framed walls shall not be more than 3/8 in. out of plumb over 32 in.
Man, I'm gonna sell my levels and buy a few kegs of Guinness with the proceeds. I can do better than that by eye while blind drunk....
Dinosaur
How now, Mighty Sauron, that thou art not broughtlow by this? For thine evil pales before that whichfoolish men call Justice....
I once made a guy take out and redo a foundation wall because it was out by 1 1/2" over 16'.
What was the old adage:
Foundations to 1/8"
Framing to 1/16"
Trim to 1/32"
Cabinetry to 1/64"
You're tough. I'd give more leeway with foundations and framing. Foundations in particular create time issues. Generally, I'd rather hang the floor 1/2 in. or an inch over the foundation in a couple of spots than wait for demolition and repair of the foundation, with its attendant cold joints. Plus, I think of the waste. We tend to think of error being cumulative in terms of distance. It is, but so is lost time. Two days here, a week there, and pretty soon you're talking real delays. Andy
"Never try to teach a pig to sing. It wastes your time and annoys the pig." Robert A. Heinlein (or maybe Mark Twain)
"Get off your dead #### and on your dying feet." Mom
"Everything not forbidden is compulsory." T.H. White, The Once and Future King
Unless it is spelled out in a contract it is open to litigation. If it is spelled out, you could ask the contractor to redo or you could renegotiate the price, either way with a contract you would have the upper hand.
I don't disagree with your points Andy, but if you demand an 1/8th the form kickers might give you 1/4. The guy I apprenticed under was very tough. If ever leaned my level up against a wall or dared place a chisel bevel up I was back to stacking lumber.In the case of the foundation job, I went to great pains to lay it out. I was on vacation for a week, so the tear out did not affect the schedule. Believe me, I'm the first to echo the adage that time is money. Hope all is well on your end, have not seen you around much.
Every project is different - a calculus of time, money, and quality. So yeah, better is better. I haven't been around much. It's too easy to spend time I don't have here, arguing rhetorical points that have no real importance, so I cold turkeyed for a year or so. I slip in for one or two now and then, though.Andy
"Never try to teach a pig to sing. It wastes your time and annoys the pig." Robert A. Heinlein (or maybe Mark Twain)
"Get off your dead #### and on your dying feet." Mom
"Everything not forbidden is compulsory." T.H. White, The Once and Future King
We would accept an inch as one could have the sheathing set in on one side or out on the other.
I have fought a lot more but the time it takes follows you everywhere the whole job.
Now if i was to frame i would want it perfect as most roofs are trusses and if there ordered before one would have a hard time adjusting..
I have seen many people mess up because the excavator piled the dirt in the middle and they could not diagonal the foundation..
They all came up with fancy math that never worked.
A few guys told me there tapes were only 100 feet so they could not diagonal, i told them tape 2 together or use a string
String stretches too much. And at over 100 feet, you're gonna need a small winch to pull all the catenary slack out of a metal tape measure. Measure the same ±140' dimension four or five times with a tape measure and I'll betcha get four or five different lengths, all ±1" to each other.
Dinosaur
How now, Mighty Sauron, that thou art not broughtlow by this? For thine evil pales before that whichfoolish men call Justice....
True but you could do it to get close go back halfway and and run 2 diagonals
The more times you measure each diagonal, the more accurate your average will be, assuming identical measurement conditions (same two guys; same tape; same temperature; etc.).
Measure each diagonal 7 times. Knock off the high and low numbers in each series. Add the remaining measurements together and divide by five. You now have two equally accurate averages to compare with each other, even though you still don't know the actual distances from one corner to the opposite one.
But you do know how much difference there is between the diagonals. Which is what you wanted in the first place, right?
Dinosaur
How now, Mighty Sauron, that thou art not broughtlow by this? For thine evil pales before that whichfoolish men call Justice....
I just never trust anybody to burn an inch on the tape, Somehow they forget by the time they walk from one end to the other;]
Andy,
My shop slab (19' X 44') was poured out of square, but the opposing sides were parallel- I had a parallelogram that was shifted off square by exactly 3 inches. I figure it had something to do with mis-communication on which side of the form board to hold and read the tape. Plus, the steel columns that support the garage door beam were set equally off.
Anyway, I was naive and figured that it wasn't that big of a deal and just dealt with it and you would not believe the number of times I cursed myself for not getting it corrected before framing. Everything, and I mean everything was a problem to work out with the exception of perhaps the painting and the stucco.
Some years later I shared this story with the steel fabricator that made the columns and his reaction was a very surprising "Why didn't you call me?" I wasn't expecting that since it wasn't his fault that the concrete sub set the columns wrong. He said he fixes his columns after installation all the time and in my case he would've just welded an off-set saddle to compensate for the 3 inches. Then all I would have to do is saw cut the thin pie slices on the short sides of the slab to get it square again. Of course, there may have been a few anchor bolts that would have to be put in place with epoxy and my shop would have been 6" shorter- big deal!
To answer yur question, though, the tolerance is truly relative to the dimensions you're dealing with and others have already given you good input on that. So, 3" on a 19' X 44' definately qualifies to be fixed.
I had a concrete guy who had been calling me for almost a year, ever since his excavator buddy told him I was good to work for.
I finally gave him a shot ona small porch I had to do. I didnt use my normal flatwork guy because this job had forms, and this "contractor" had his own, turns out they were rented but that is a diff story
The day I dug the footings for him (something about hauling a machine up to the job) I had my laser out and my guy was shooting for bottom of footing the whole time I dug. When supposed contractor set his rebar and called for crete I got worried. No grade pins, I was leaving with my laser, and he didnt have one in his truck.
I loaned him my laser, told him to lock it in jobbox when he left, and headed on my way. I went back a few days later to check the progress of walls before they got poured and noticed that he just simply "shot" crete in the footing hole and only somewhat struck off the top. All the forms for walls were set when I got there and there were two guys working from opposite corners with 4' levels to get a line for top of walls inside the forms. I decided to check things for square and discoverd that on a wall setup that was 12 x 24 he was out by 1 1/2" He said it'd be close enough for the porch overhang to hide it. I insisted he fix it before it was poured.
He left, I finished job is the short run of the story.
Why would anyone not strive for an excellent end result and give any tolerance. I can work with something being off, been there dun that, don't want too. Do it right to begin with.
I have also learned to not care about how they sell themselves but to talk to other contractors or customers they have worked for.
I once built a garage 32x80 ona slab that was 5" out of square. Boss at the time said that we didnt do the concrete wasnt our job to make it right. Fought it all the way through finish. Roof had metal on it, as did walls, make that S*** line up! I strive for an excelent job and it starts with the footings and basement walls.The bad news is you've done exactly the right things to be exactly where you are today.
"IdahoDon 1/31/07"