Been a while since I posted here. Mostly a fly on the wall. This discussion has been a thorn in my side at work for some time know. I do bath remodels for a small company. I’m a full time employee, so I get paid hourly. They are constantly on me for the amount of time it takes me to complete jobs. The scope of these jobs runs from direct replace to complete guts and relocate just about everything. I’ll use a bath I recently completely as an example, since it was, for the most part, direct replace. Here’s the breakdown:
1)gut whole bath to studs, redrywall with green board
2)replace tub,surround & toilet in existing location.
3)replace vanity w/ pedestal sink
4)remove existing floor(sticky tile, damaged luan) replace w/ 1/4″ luan and sheet floor
5)redo electric consisting of running home run GFI and adding three can lights
6)Replace trim around door and window, Beadboard 4′ up from floor
Now take this into consideration: All work done by 1 person (me). All electric, plumbing, drywall, mud, trim, paint, and so on. I have to pick up most of the materials. No help. I’m anal about things being done correctly, so they rarely have callbacks for my jobs. I’ll post how long it took me after a few, if any, responses.
Replies
I'm not sure what's going on the walls @ the tub or on the floor.
If you boss is putting green board at the tub he is a class A schmuck.
Anyway, 2-4 weeks (+-)
Eric
I Love A Hand That Meets My Own,
With A Hold That Causes Some Sensation.
[email protected]
I do a couple baths just like this every month. Usually it takes 7-10 working days. I don't do the plumbing, but a plumber would have it roughed in about 5-6 hours and would return for about a 3-4 hour finish when I'm ready.
You are right on, I hadn't ready your post before I replied with 50-60 hours, I don't think these guys work a full day!
Thanks, I could go on and on comparing how my time and James stacks up but if I didn't have this bathroom gutted and loaded on a truck in 3 hours MAX, I'd embarrass myself. The other thing that really stuck out was the accessories taking the five hours, which it can but usually small baths have a couple towel bars, a TP holder, maybe a hook or two, etc. but shoot I could do all that PLUS a full shower door in less than 5 hours, so I don't get it.But not to blast James, since he was just helping out and answering the question. We're all different, and I get paid by the job, not the hour, so I max out on efficiency and hard work. I don't fart around waiting for inspectors, EVER, or any subcontractors. I try not to waste time chasing materials but since all I do now is kitchens and baths, I've got lots of everything I need on hand, including cement board, drywall, plywood, everything.The way my jobs get screwed up is by change orders, or sales people who order the wrong stuff, or delays in getting it.I'll also say that these jobs USED to take me 3 weeks or maybe more before I got into strictly kitchen and bath remodels. When you do these all the time, it gets really simple to streamline things. I use the same subs over and again, we have our schedules all nailed down before we start, and tend to use a lot of similar product (fixtures, cabinetry, lights, etc.) so I don't very often need to read an installation manual. Everything is a one man show, and nobody here will believe that a complete kitchen gut job averages about 15-20 days, including some structural changes, all new flooring and cabinetry, countertops, tile backsplashes, whatever. Obviously some jobs are much more complex, but some of the simpler ones are 8-12 days on average as well. I'd have to count, but I think last year I did something like 8 kitchens and 15 bathrooms, all by myself.
Edited 2/9/2005 2:58 pm ET by Mad Dog
Thats exactly how we hold the time in check. We typically install the same products so we aren't fussing with getting used to new installation proceedures. We also purchase everything of size and special order in advance so it is on the shop floor ready to go.
We put everything down on paper and have the customer sign it and give copies to whoever is doing the job. Demo is 3-4 hours. We bring in a dump trailer and throw everything in it and have it off the job in 2 days as that is when demo and major work should be done. DanT
Three hours to demo?!It takes more than half that just to lay in protective floor coverings, and set up dust protections, etc.or do you guys just demo the whole house along with the bath?;)
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
I've come into jobs after guys like that have completed their work to fix floors, fix cracks in ajoining walls and also to do all the other work the homeowner was going to have the first guy do before they saw the mess that was made.... oh and even did the other guys punch list...... cheap and fast does not make good.
james
This thread is kinda sad ...
we're all tryingt o out-do the next guy ....
I can name that bath remodel in 5 days, Alex ....
Me .... what ever the longest estimate is here ... I'll add a day or two ...
then I'll take my time and make it nice.
I never shoot for "fast" ...
fast look like ... well ... fast!
Why is the focus here getting things done as fast as possible ...
Why not focus on finding jobs and customers where speed is not of the essence?
Lif Pif said .... all those quick demo speeds are BS if U do it right and tarp off all the walk areas and dust proof the work area ... then take your time moving the debris out ...
Glad I'm not 18 again and trying to kill myself to impress someone.
I only have me to impress with my speed.
Next time yer at a professionals office ... look close and see if they're rushing around breaking a sweat trying to do too many things at once ...
No .. they're sitting there calming doing their job.
Kids at McDonalds run around and sweat from standing too close to the fryer ...
I don't like to run around and sweat for nothing!
Jeff
Jeff Buck Construction
Artistry in Carpentry
Pgh, PA
Good point Jeff.Who Dares Wins.
There will always be some bosses who want more. No matter how good or fast you are, they want more. WHY would you kill yourself each day for nothing? So you can be a good sport and make more money for him? So when you get hurt he can hire a replacement?
I used to work for a guy who was getting that way. I did the work on my own, passify the customer if need be, organise subs, deliveries, run round after materials, get given all the weird and tricky stuff to do...................he still wanted more.
Twice he started to wind up about me not being on the job on time, as 'everybody else starts at......', until I reminded him that he didnt complain when I did 12 hours straight without even a slurp of coffee to keep me going, didnt moan when I ran all over town on my money to get stuff sorted, etc. That would shut him up for a while, then he would start again.
In the end i figgured if I was going to do everything except find the work, I might as well go the whole hog. I left and have been way happier since.
Tell the fella to politely shove it and go your own way.
Everything, 100% of it, depends on how you look at it.
DW
I would do it your way if I ever get into remodeling Jeff.
Of course you aren't going to sell a 4 week bath remodel in a 5 day neighborhood....but you also won't sell a 5 day remodel in a 4 week neighgborhood.
Remodelers have to know and cater to their clientele. I'd rather play around in the wealthier burbs.
blueJust because you can, doesn't mean you should!
Warning! Be cautious when taking any framing advice from me. There are some in here who think I'm a hackmeister...they might be right! Of course, they might be wrong too!
That wasn't my original point, to see who was the fastest gun in the west. It was to see an average time frame for the job described, done correctly. The first person I worked with when I was a wee pup always said "work smart, not fast". I've gone back and fixed many a co-workers blunder because they flew through a job.
Edited 2/10/2005 10:02 pm ET by FLIPMO82
I know ...
I was just following a train of thot.
Jeff Buck Construction
Artistry in Carpentry
Pgh, PA
Nope. I've got the door off and floor protect all the way to the exit done in 5 minutes. Then I've got 30 seconds to staple a sheet of plastic above the door opening and a minute to put a fan in the window and plug in the extension cord, which will give me temporary lighting and some power for other stuff too. Dust is mostly an exterior problem then.Anyway, the jobs are all different. I'm talking average small bathrooms, the kind that have just enough room for a tub, toilet, vanity,etc. These run of the mill jobs are so common the timing is almost down to a science and I'd lump the job we're talking about into that category. I'll assume the house has plastered walls so that I'm filling a lot of garbage cans, busting everything out but the ceiling, if there's not a large amount of lighting going on, though almost always a new fan/heat light type thing that will need more wiring, so an attic access is needed or ripping out more ceiling, but that isn't what I'm talking here.I'll break it down. I've already given the 6 1/2 minutes to secure the crime scene. Then I shut off the water, give that five minutes generously.Next, I'll sawzall a horizontal line completely around wherever the drywall needs to come out-all around the tub surround, and along the top edge of wall tile to be removed. Straightness pays, so you can get new drywall in easily. That'll take ten minutes even if I use up a blade.Then I bust out all the drywall or plaster and start filling garbage cans, taking a break to haul out the cans and bring in a load of tools or supplies. Bust off the toilet by the bolts and drain it down the hole. Sledgehammer the tub, careful around that drain, take it out in four pieces, and watch out for door trim on the way. That's about five minutes for the toilet, ten minutes for the tub, and let's say a half hour for the drywall or plaster or tile. A little more if there's @#$% wire mesh, and a bandaid. If a fiberglass surround, that'll take another ten minutes.Vanity and or pedestal, take a channel lock and twist/rip/break the supply lines and saw off or wrench off the drain. Faucet becomes a handle to rip sink off vanity top or take the whole thing as is. Each situation is different but they don't present much of a challenge. 5-10 minutes and it's on the truck or at the curb.Disconnecting vanity mirror lights, removing medicine chests, towel bars, all that stuff is another ten minutes maybe. Then pulling all the nails and screws from the bare studs, dealing with insulation, etc. probably about 20 minutes.Floor can be easy or hard, but even mud set tile in a mesh should be out in a small bathroom in a short time. 20 minute average here I'd say.Five minutes to scrape up and sweep. Plumber arriving soon. While the plumber is there, I'll figure out what to do electrically, and get measurements for firring out the studs, and plan what I need for flooring underlayment, drywall, trim, etc and plan to buy it all in one trip to the big box store or have it delivered from my lumber yard, depends mostly on job location. Small jobs I usually just buy more than I need or use what I have on hand and store the extra in the client's garage. Once the plumbers have the new tub set, I can start cutting all my firring and subfloor, and drywall and have it ready. If I have to buy it, that is a good time to make the run.In a few hours they have the tub roughed in with a new shower valve, the sink is roughed and capped off, and the toilet flange sealed and the line capped off. I check the level of the tub and they take off, leaving the afternoon to work on the walls or the floor.Next day the electrician will get his work roughed in, if I didn't get him to stop by the previous afternoon, depending on the complexity of the job. I'll help him and spend an hour or two pulling cable, stapling, running to the breaker panel, etc. so that the bill is minimized and he gets done faster. One of us is usually going to be in the attic so we'll connect the new ducting to the fan at that time. Rest of this day is getting surround installed if fiberglass, if the plumbers didn't do it, or cement board for tile, drywall on, and a coat of mud and taped. If I have time, I'll start on the floor. Third day starts with a coat of mud. Subfloor if not done by now is a simple matter. Then, if it's a tile job I'll get my layout and mix up a bucket of mud. Throw on another coat of drywall mud and it's close to being finished. Tile mud is ready, start setting as much field tile as possible, deal with the cut tiles later, unless a straight line cutter works, in which case I'll cut right along. I'm a pretty fast tiler, especially on floors without a pattern. I do the toilet flange all at once outside with a right angle grinder, and most other odd cuts as well. Considering how much tile work I do, I use a tile saw very infrequently, but it mostly depends on the tile itself. Usually this is a short day and if I have another job that needs some details finished I'll take care of that.Next day I'll finish the drywall first, put a coat of primer on, grout the floor and call the plumber to set him up for finish, which will be in two days. I can spend some time putting the hole for the fan duct through the sidewall, roof or soffit and finish that off, but today is pretty short too.If I'm painting the bathroom, I'll paint it the following morning. I'll measure and cut some of the trim, which would have already been finished earlier in the job if not reusing the existing original trim, which I typically do not like to do. Another easy day.Next day the plumber comes in the morning, hopefully about 5 minutes after I set the vanity cabinets if there are any. I can usually trim while he's working on the tub and shower trim. Then put on the electricals, lights, etc. By now I've talked to the homeowners and gotten locations for all the accessories and put them on. If there is a shower door I'll work on that while the plumber does the toilet so he can help me position the doors if I need it while he's there. I'll install the threshold and the door (which may need to be cut down) when he leaves, and caulk everywhere necessary before I go.That is 6 days, and some of them are easy short ones. You'd add a full day, maybe two for a complex pattern, if you have to tile the tub surround. That's how it goes if all the materials are the right ones, and are there to start the job. If you have to wait for various parts, and chase them down, there's your killer. And it does happen. But again, your work time is not that huge if you aren't let down by the other people. I do all the work except selling, ordering, delivering and picking up trash. No plumbing or electrical except helping those subs.Dog
PS-I just noticed that he was going to put down sheet vinyl and beadboard wainscoating. That should make it about a full day quicker than doing ceramic tile on the floor.
Edited 2/11/2005 5:00 pm ET by Mad Dog
Dog...your approach to small baths makes me think of my approach to 2500 sf production roughs. We/you hit the ground running and don't make no excuses for lack of production.
If it isn't getting done, either study the system and find the bottlenecks, or look in the mirror....
blueJust because you can, doesn't mean you should!
Warning! Be cautious when taking any framing advice from me. There are some in here who think I'm a hackmeister...they might be right! Of course, they might be wrong too!
Right. I don't really want to be there, and so as long as I'm stuck working in someone's bathroom, why not kick some butt, get it done and go home. My company would schedule a certain amount of days for this job, say 8. If I get done in 6, I don't have to tell them I worked ahead of schedule and don't have stuff to do. I go fishing.
I'm sure you do well on a production basis, but I also tend to think that you are optimistic about some of what you report.Keep in mind that I don't intend this as a put-down, just touching in with reality. I have read enough of yoru posts over the years rthat I know we could work together.And i do work in more high end houses where there are plenty of antiques and art on the walls that need protection.But when you report that you staple up the plastic in thirty seconds - you had to go get that plastic out of th etruck first.
When you report popping the door off fast, you still had to put that oor someplace.
When you mention a minute to put the fan in the window, you had to get that fan in first from the truck and get the curtain out of the window first...And I wonder - with all this ramming, runing and slamming, how do the casings on the doors between the entry and the job room handle all the dings? It helps to put some protection on them too.Not here to pick on you personally, but i have often seen jobs where guys go in someone's living room and set up the sawhorses right over the sofa and start cutting, or do the demo so rough that every nail gets popped on the other side of the wall....it gets sad, and that is what I see in my mind when I hear of guys who brag about how fast they can work. The slam bang method appeals to Blue, but I notice that he reports he could never survive in the remodel market. I think he is wise enough not to try it. People like someone who will respect their home and feelings about their property.
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
Piffin, you bring up good points, but you have to keep in mind that Mad Dog is talking about very simple standard three piece bathrooms. You're relating his experience to high end work and I think it's safe to say that there probably would be some additional time taken to protect antiques etc.
Basically the Dog is making the case for getting in and getting it done in the simply baths, using a regular routine that he's developed. Anyone that is interested in production would develop a good routine if they did the same type of work day in, day out. It's the repetive nature of the work that teaches you what tools to walk in with in the first minute and which steps are most important. There is tremendous time savings to be had by doing the right things in order, using the right tools.
I also want to say this. Sometimes it's better to use heavier hammers and quicker motions to get the demo process done. I worked with an old guy Andy, who thought that the slower the better, but quite often slower meant more damage. Sometimes speed is advantageous in reducing collatoral damage. Experience is the best teacher in this regard and I can assure you that Andy never understood that aspect of the process.
blueJust because you can, doesn't mean you should!
Warning! Be cautious when taking any framing advice from me. There are some in here who think I'm a hackmeister...they might be right! Of course, they might be wrong too!
As long as somebody is thinking about it, instead of focusing on speed rather than of the overall home...I understand production work. Remember I was a roofer for twenty years. Even in that, there is a world of difference between subbing shingles on condos or spec houses and re-roofing older homes in landscaped neighborhoods. I think HAZ has made that point in reporting that he doesn't even do new roofing sub work - only re-roofs near home.
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
Piffin, Blue--Some good points. I made the mistake of going into detail but not dealing with all the details. I guess it would have seemed boring to say that I hauled all my "protection" out of the truck before applying it, but yes it needs to be done.Also worth mentioning is that we ask the homeowners before the job starts to remove everything from the room being worked on, and anything of value adjacent to it, including pictures on walls near the room, etc. When I smash out the cast iron tubs, I check the lights in the rooms underneath it because I really wail on the tub. One time an electrician told me he could see the exterior wall of the house moving as I smashed it.Again, every job is different. This one is not high end at all, it's typically a '50's ranch house that hasn't been touched since it was goobed up in the '70's. The house will be worth $145k and the stuff inside you couldn't get $5k total at the inevitable estate sale that is happening all the time in the very same house, somewhere in the neighborhood, if you get what I mean. But sometimes the simple job is in a pretty cool house, and with the type of people who are particular, and clean, and have nice stuff. Yes I am more careful with that arrangement, but mostly it's a matter of sensibility. I've never done anything to protect trims, not sure what you mean--baseboard maybe? Door trims?I'm demoing a second floor bathroom on Wednesday. I could recap it for you here if you'd like.Dog
Piffin
I have often seen jobs where guys go in someone's living room and set up the sawhorses right over the sofa and start cutting
Just got done reading this whole thread! Wewww
I wonder how close that statement of yours is to the truth.
I started work for a guy down here in Texas and first job he sent me to was a well known musician.
Guitars all over the place, keyboards, other sound equipment, all kinds of music related stuff, Not a damn thing covered, and were in there doing a complete gut to the OPEN kitchen, master bedroom, and bath.
I couldn't belive it.
I wouldn't do that in a house full of gargesale/walmart furniture. Everyone's stuff deserves to be taken care of properly.
Interesting thread.
I think I'll stick to working on the bathrooms that you and Buck do!
Doug
It was a literaly true statement. When I moved here, the outfit I went to work for, sent me one day to pick up a portable tablesaw at one of their other jobs. it was winter and the sawhorses were right there in the living room and not a plastic or drop in site. They had pulled down the old 12"x12" cieling tiles ( You know what knid of dust lurks behind them!) without covering the books and stuff onthe mantle and bookshelves. Sawdust was all over the sofa, they were doing V-groove paneling in a room off to the side and never moved the bed out, or emptied the closet...I said something and the youngster running that job just said, "That's OK. They'll have somebody come in and vacumn when we're done."One reason I've heard for many of the jobs I get is that people have seen my jobs in progress and have seen those of other cobntractors and compared the neatness, and safety apparant. Those are the people who are willing to pay more too. The economy level HOs get to sawp complaints about the contractors who ruined their knick-knacks. Not meaning Mad-dog. he has a method to deal with it.
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
it takes me a half hour to remember where I parked the van each time I walk out for something ...
Plus ... my time ... and I'll bet Pif's ... includes running the corporate office at the same time .... I'm finally gatting back to busy here ... and I'm trying to not make the same mistakes that led to my "unbusyness" ... so I'm making and returning calls to set up other work down the road as much as possible ... while doing the days tasks ... and remembering and calling around for next weeks suppiles too ...
Jeff
Buck Construction
Artistry in Carpentry
Pgh, PA
Jeff
If your in the "unbusy" state I got about a week or two's worth of work for you if your interested.
I think I've seen you mention your desire to come back to Texas!
Austin isnt Houston though, so it might not be as fun. Then again, everybody that used to live in Houston that now lives here says that there's no way in hell they'd go back.
Doug
no ... I fixed the unbusyness ...
and am working hard to kee it that way ...
thouse I would like to see Austin ... one part of Tx I never made it to while doing my time. Plus ... I've seen some of your pics ... I'd even go back to Hou to get a hand in on that!
I'll call next time I'm slow .... though I'll need 4 weeks to fill your 2 ....
one week or solid drive time each way. A drive that I made more than once.
Jeff
Buck Construction
Artistry in Carpentry
Pgh, PA
Jeff
while doing my time.
Funny, thats what I used to say about the time I lived in Tulsa, OK.
I'm sure I will say it about the time I spent here someday!
Cant take a solid week to drive here can it? Hell I bitch about the 16 hr drive to Iowa.
I'm considering going to the FWW fest this summer, nothing better than Montana in August. Thats going to be one hell of a drive, I still want to get my 40 hrs in week before and week after. I want to save the vacation time for a trip to Ia.
Doug
I kinda just looked in here to see what all the hooha was about, I meanit's gettin long.........
30 second this, 5 minutes that..............yeah , phoey!
I don't pay a lot of mind to time. Quality is where we want to go. And clean. You gotta be clean. I vacuum almost everyday, all the way down the steps and out the door...........after I pick up the drop cloths!
Do this second floor bath in Olympic record time. Who was that guy? Must of been panting like a fool...............
Yikes!
These photos are from a bath I did late last year in a house built in the late 1800's.
The bath is from the mis 40's as evidenced from the newspapers we removed from the walls.
I had intended to do a photo essay on the remodel but.............
This bath took me 6 days start to finish!!!!!!!!!
Yeah, right...........I'd have to look it up, I know it was 2 mos. or more. Take your time, do it right, neat and clean, respect your clients home and their possesions.
EricI Love A Hand That Meets My Own,
With A Hold That Causes Some Sensation.
[email protected]
I am exactly in yur ball park. I don't get terribly concerned with the dust (we live in a dusty area. We do close off doorways but that is about it. I tell the people right in their contract that dust is part of the job and can migrate throughout the house. If I get a feel that this is going to be a problem they are not the customer for me as it leads to other whining. We vacuum every afternoon, and several times during the day, and it is clean for them each night. If you just show them you are trying to control it they always comment on how clean we are. One of the things I ask on first contact is are they planning a trip soon? We try to do a big job when they are gone. We don't have to worry about cleaning every day and getting water on every night. They really like coming home to a finished job. Of course you need to have every detail planned out as there is nobody to contact. I always use the same subs and give them a heads up prior to start (as well as in the bidding process), and don't put up with a lot waiting. In our area we don't get inspected by anyone unless it is a structural change or house footprint change (which would be structural). Also our head inspector used to work for me so we have a good relationship. Many times a phone call to him just says go ahead and he will make it out of he can. He knows who I use for subs and that helps. As long as we give them proper notice, we never wait for an inspector, we just don't cover anything that we know is a visual inspection item. We usually don't take breaks. There are enough unscheduled breaks without scheduling one.
He did say tub surrond
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
You have to do every trade?? The boss is insane to be dicking with you if you can do all that by yourself.
I'm thinking 4 weeks as an average, assuming basic site conditions (i.e. not a 3rd floor walkup with parking half a mile away) and a homeowner who doesn't talk to you for 5 hours every day.
It could take as much as 6, but I don't see how it could take 2. Last job like that I bid was around $9000, estimated almost 80 hours of my direct labor, subs for plumbing, electrical, flooring, sheetrock, and painting.
So... how long did it take?
Dave,
First floor bath, homeowners went to work and left me alone (best kind of customers!)
Sounds like I'm the slowest guy on the board. Y'all can do two in the time I do one!
I reread your post and noticed theres no tile .
"4)remove existing floor(sticky tile, damaged luan) replace w/ 1/4" luan and sheet floor"
That sounds like linoleum to me .
This is exactly what I do , but Ive been doing it a long time and have many many tools. So , it might not be fair cause I dont know how well the boss pays you. You get it ? Id just like to find a hand that could do it all and please me . That would be a bigger deal than the time you took to do the job.
Your time is great and I now expect you are well paid. If you are not , its time to get to looking . Thers a dozen or more here that would love to have a hand that could handle all that and in that amount of time.
Tim Mooney
Thanks Tim. The floor had those cheap self stick 12x12 tiles. But I have turn up miles of 1"mud beds.
I`m assuming ceramic tile on the tub surround?
Three weeks tops.
And I agree with Dave (?)....cement board at tub surround.
J. D. Reynolds
Home Improvements
"DO IT RIGHT, DO IT ONCE"
I'd say from your description and the points made in the two previous responses that you would be Superman to complete that in less than two weeks. I'd be looking at 3 weeks with thw possibilty of spilling into four with unseen problems. We're talking normal (as f I work them) 8 hour days, normal lunches, and five day weeks.
I'm thinking 5 days.
blue
Just because you can, doesn't mean you should!
Warning! Be cautious when taking any framing advice from me. There are some in here who think I'm a hackmeister...they might be right! Of course, they might be wrong too!
I'm thinking 5 days.
Who told you to think?
; )J. D. Reynolds
Home Improvements
"DO IT RIGHT, DO IT ONCE"
I'd estimate approx. 80-100 hours,maybe even a little more depending on conditions.
you do elec., plumbing, and carp.? any problems with inspections?
I couldn't get away with that here.
edited-the 80-100 hrs. doesn't include the plumbing or electrical. It does include all carpentry, drywall, and painting, and a tile floor
Edited 2/7/2005 9:29 pm ET by Shep
Same as you, I do everything and by myself, on a complete gut job from day one to job complete, 3-4 weeks, depending on 'incidentals' like skylights and tile.
How are you getting the permits to do the electrical and plumbing?
BTW, if you can do all this yourself, why not go solo? The only boss hassling you would be the wife/girlfriend/the dude in the mirror. Maybe the HO.
Nick,
I would go solo, but with two young ones,my wife going to school and working, one hell of a mortgage, and the so so benefits, now is not the time.
Flip.....it`ll never be "the" time....take it from a guy who was in your very same position not terribly long ago.
If going it solo is truly something you desire, waiting for the right time will never allow you to realize it.J. D. Reynolds
Home Improvements
"DO IT RIGHT, DO IT ONCE"
Believe me, I want to. I tried it before about four years ago w/ a partner. we lost more then we made and it makes me a little leery about just jumping in head first. A little more business knowledge and I'm going for it
If you don't plan to go into business for yourself, you should at least be looking for a new job. 12 days isn't too long if you do nice work, and your boss should be happy with it. Find someone who appreciates a good employee.And if you think about going into business again, think about doing it without a partner. Besides your wife, I mean.
Edited 2/7/2005 10:05 pm ET by moondance
no partner this time and a helper...
if you did it in 8 yur boss would demand 6 and if it was 6 he'd want 5 and so on...
23$ w/bennies... tell him ya want 2$ more and a helper...
without yer quality work he would be hurting... are you the only retro / remodler guy...
proud member of the FOR/FOS club...
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming
WOW!!! What a Ride!
There is one other guy in our crew that can do whole baths, but his finish product isn't anything to write home about.
Edited 2/9/2005 7:39 pm ET by FLIPMO82
Flip,Do you have any idea what the materials cost on this job ?Include delivery, but eliminate markup.Now, figure out what it costs for your benefits. I mean, what it will realistically cost if you have to pay for the same coverage and all benefits for yourself.Now figure the cost of doing business. Sit down and figure out what kind of paperwork needs done. Billing, estimating, etc. License and insurance fees. Advertising. All of the overhead of doing business. Including the hours it takes to do all that.Add all the above together.Now compare that to the 8 thousand and some that was charged for this job.Do you think you could do all the above ? The paperwork. Keeping track of taxes, expenditures, markups, benefits papers, etc... (Figure the amount of time you take to do the actual job, and add at least half again as many hours...)If you can do all that, and pay yourself, and have a profit... Then what are you waiting for ??? Hang yer own shingle...
The person you offend today, may have been your best friend tomorrow
As a matter of fact I do know how much the material cost, I went to the store and bought it. The company I work for has a problem with marking up material, which I have greatly stated they must do, so it is not my problem that they loss money on it. I also know how much it cost to run a business, I did it for two years, unsuccessfully.
I'm guessing you use greenboard because the tub surround is a fiberglass unit.
4-5 weeks, assumning you don't find any rotted studs etc. And assuming the HO doesn't change their mind on colors or styles.
I'm sorry, I thought you wanted it done the right way.
In superman mode with everything going OK, 92 hours. But taping and painting, etc require drying times and it is a small room, clean and carry though a house with residents living there and I can't see it all - details and such - maybe as much as 140 hours.you other guys bid work by the week?
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
piffin,
the only way i would be mistaken for superman is if i tattooed a S on my chest and flew into the office tomorrow morning.
I'm guessing between 100-120 man hours and maybe a few hours with an extra set of hands there for some of the stuff.
I'd talk to the boss and ask him to tell you ahead of time how many hours he has in the job, take it from there, if it's unreasonable. try to explain to him why you think so, ie, all the little things that have to be done from getting material, to dealing with suppliers, handling the homeowner etc.
or simply tell him, if I'm taking x% longer then you bid, maybe you should consider raising the x%
I did a complete gut of a bath that required all new wiring from the service box, plumbing to the stack, rebuild walls/floor, lights, fan, cutting hole in brick for exhaust, all walls tiled to ceiling, custom built-in med cab, the list goes on and on ...... three back breaking weeks. The only help I got was on the demo. Thank god for that cause it was a full mud job including the floor.
I did work one weekend, not sure the total man hours.
"One measurement is worth a thousand expert opinions"
Edited 2/7/2005 8:46 pm ET by Woodrow
I'm upping my bid to 7-9 days if I have to paint. I forgot about the drywalling and tile on my first bid.
blueJust because you can, doesn't mean you should!
Warning! Be cautious when taking any framing advice from me. There are some in here who think I'm a hackmeister...they might be right! Of course, they might be wrong too!
Damn, I didn't think the responses would fly in this quick. Thanks guys. I didn't want to ramble on with the small details in the first post. Yes, it was a to the studs tub surround. Also, much of our work is in small townships where we get away w/out inspections. I know it's a no no, but it's not my business on the line. I have a pretty good knowledge of bathroom codes (20 amp home runs, vented fixtures, etc.). I don't know everything, that's for sure, but I have a plumber and electrician on my nextel two way to answer any questions. This particular bath they charged about $8,500. He wanted it done in 7 business days. It took me 12.
Edited 2/7/2005 9:12 pm ET by FLIPMO82
Okay, Flip....give us the details about the 12 days.
Are you making multiple runs to the supply house or do you drag everything with you the first day?
How well is your tools and equipments setup?
How big is the room?
blueJust because you can, doesn't mean you should!
Warning! Be cautious when taking any framing advice from me. There are some in here who think I'm a hackmeister...they might be right! Of course, they might be wrong too!
1) I try to get the bulk of the material (tub, drywall, surround, etc.) brought out to me, little stuff I take care of myself before the beginning of the work day
2) I have a truck and too many ( yeah right!) tools, which, for the most part, I can leave on the job
3) room is 10 x 6
He's just trying to squeeze more profit out of it. I'm the only do it all guy we have and my boss will start that periodicaly. I'll put up with it for awhile then take a day or two off, when we've got a big job coming that I know he's going to squeeze me on. It gives him a reality check when it takes three other guys much longer and he has to pay different trades to be there longer.
I'm not any better, I'm just much more experianced at my niche. ATM remodels. You can get into a lot of work when you have to widen a hole through a wall or in a lot of cases make a hole in a wall and plant an ATM where there wasn't any before. Carpentry, masonary, electrical, alarm, data, video,cabinetry, carpet etc. You have to drywall, trim and paint everything as well. he forgets what it takes and then starts harrasing me over time if I tell him I need an extra day.
Last year when my FIL passed away we were getting ready to start a big ATM remodel. When he laid the time line out he gave me like two days to do the whole thing. Well I got the call and went to Syracuse. I was back home Wed. but decided to take the whole week off. When I went back Monday I found out that they had sent 6 different guys down over 6 days and still weren't done. He didn't kiss my #### after that, but he was really polite for a long time.
Take a week, see what happens.Who Dares Wins.
they bid to get the job and wanted to make money at yur expense...
proud member of the FOR/FOS club...
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming
WOW!!! What a Ride!
tell to get ya help if they want faster...
go out on yur own...
proud member of the FOR/FOS club...
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming
WOW!!! What a Ride!
Since this is all over the map with how long it should taken compared to how long it took.
Lets see pictures of the before and after.
Wish I had them, but don't. This was an example of one of the easier baths I do so it wasn't worth documenting.
That's why you aren't a remodelor;)
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
what tile?James DuHamel
He who dies with the most toys.... Still dies!
"For what will it profit a man if he gains the whole world, and loses his soul?" MARK 8:36
http://www.godsfreemusic.com
James, I'm assuming I would tile the floor.
I really wouldn't take my times seriously because all I really know how to do well is rough frame. If I did bathroom R&R's on a regular basis, I suppose I could bang them out in near record time too depending on inspection, wall finishes, floor finishes etc.
Since were all estimating the time in theory, we're all basing our times on differenct specs..
The funny thing? I think thats how all remodeling bids are done in the real world! LOL!
blueJust because you can, doesn't mean you should!
Warning! Be cautious when taking any framing advice from me. There are some in here who think I'm a hackmeister...they might be right! Of course, they might be wrong too!
The funny thing? I think thats how all remodeling bids are done in the real world! LOL!
Boy ain't that the truth! (heh heh)
I always calculate, refigure, double check, and then double time estimates. I still usually go over what I thought it would take, buit I always run into stuff that expands and extends the opriginal scope of work. A 3 day job turns into a 15 day job, with 5 times the original work to do. Or so it always seems heh hehJames DuHamel
He who dies with the most toys.... Still dies!
"For what will it profit a man if he gains the whole world, and loses his soul?" MARK 8:36
http://www.godsfreemusic.com
I always calculate, refigure, double check, and then double time estimates. I still usually go over what I thought it would take, buit I always run into stuff that expands and extends the opriginal scope of work. A 3 day job turns into a 15 day job, with 5 times the original work to do. Or so it always seems heh heh
My very first BA remudel started as a 30 second fix.
The shower arm was cracked. I thought, "what cheapa$$ would put a chrome covered plastic shower arm in?!" So I purchased a steel replacement arm. Unscrewed the plastic one... unscrewed...unscrewed. Dang thing wouldn't come off. So I just screw it back on. Turn on the water. I can hear the water running... it just isn't coming out the showerhead.
So I opened the wall to expose the plumbing. Turned out the plastic shower arm had a locking nut on it. When I unscrewed it, I had simply unscrewed it from the supply line. Well about that time, I notice the bottom of the fiberglass shower stall is cracked...and has been leaking for quite some time. Messed up the floor under the shower and vanity.
So I figured I'd just yank them out and fix the floor and put them back in. Well, that was when I discovered that I had a 32" shower, but only a 24" BA door.
Ended up taking a hammer to the shower stall (easier than patching). And just went ahead and trashed the old vanity as well. As I was repairing the floor, I found out the bad spot extended under the toilet... oh, the toilet has been leaking. Actually, the only thing holding the toilet up was the ABS drain and the very front edge of the toilet base being over a joist.
Ironically, I ended up putting 48" shower stall in. Oddly enough I was able to get it in even though I couldn't get the 32" out (48" came in two pieces). New toilet, new floor, new vanity...new..new.. So a 30 second fix ended up costing me a couple thousand $$.
jt8
Our lives improve only when we take chances -- and the first and most difficult risk we can take is to be honest with ourselves. -- Walter Anderson
Now seriously blue ifn you were doing
this, you would have a thread going
called "Bathroom Boogerin"
showing us how you would do it out in front of the
house on the driveway and craning the
completed bathroom through the roof.:-)
lol!!!!!
edited:
To the original poster, if you have some pictures
to share w/us (before and after)
it probably would help w/time
estimates for everybody here.
Edited 2/9/2005 5:32 am ET by butch
Flip,
let me give this a realestic whirl point by point.
Gut out bath, remove all to landfill ( assume tile over tub and 1/4" luan stapled over subfloor, clean up.............10- 12 hours
Wire in gfci and install can fixtures ( assume bath adjacent to room with main pannell or access to panell thru attic or another way without removing interior finishes in rest of house. I would assume some emt work in some area....................... @ 6 - 8 hrs, with another two hours waiting for electrical inspector to give ok to cover.
wait 4 hours for building inspector to give ok to cover, inspection could be scheduled for the same day as electrical if building was in afternoon and electrical in am.
install new luan subfloor including time to procure..... 4hr ( probably get drywall and tile backer as well and pick up new tub.
install new tub .......2hr
install wallboard and tile backer .....8 hrs
call inspector and set appointment for sheetrock screw schedule etc, set apt and wait @ 4hrs for him.
apply tape coat with hot mud, apply fill coat with mud 3 - 5 hrs
sand and apply final coat of mud 2hr
get trim and set up for that phase, install wainscott, door and window trim, fill nails , sand , caulk 8 - 10hr.
prime job with sprayer, 2hrs
sand primer, shoot trim, 3hr
mask off trim, shoot walls......4 - 5 hrs
install basic tile package ........8 - 10hr
grout tile package............2 hr
install sheet floor ...............4hr
get sheet floor..............2hr
install shower door..............3hr
install pedistal sink and toilet ( including getting them, probably with shower door)..............4hr
bath accents........................5hr
plumbing final 2hr
electrical final 2hr
building final 4hr
and bobs your uncle!!!
probably about 10hr added for misc shoping etc
looks like we would come in just over three weeks but lets be realistic that is man hours so this bath could easily take as long as 5 weeks due to dry times etc, granted we have a lot of mucking about with inspectors and i think i may have overstated some of the times but i think that this would be a fair basis for time site unseen with work being carried out in a workmanlike manner.
I would like to say that i could do it in 3 - 4 weeks but who is to say, it is easy to add up man hours but in reality you can not put in a 40hr week on a project like this, there is just too much down time and waiting for stuff to dry durning the finishes... I guess you could try to plan out your day so that the wet stuff goes in at the end of a day but who is to say that it will be dry the next day ( drywall comes to mind )
hope this helps
james
James,
Thanks. I may print out your post and give it to the boss.
Boy you guys really know how to milk it. What are bath accents that take 5 hours??
You can't tape a bath with first coat in 1 or 2 hours?
Craigmic
"looks like we would come in just over three weeks but lets be realistic that is man hours so this bath could easily take as long as 5 weeks due to dry times etc, granted we have a lot of mucking about with inspectors and i think i may have overstated some of the times but i think that this would be a fair basis for time site unseen with work being carried out in a workmanlike manner."
guess you didn't read that now did you. In the city i work in I have very rarely encountered a bath that is square or rectangle, often times they have many off angle walls and uaually a skylight for ventalation ( with a well), the wall layout tends to be very complex and also not knowing anything about the job i figured that i should error on the long side for this guys sake, and even stated it... do you really think it takes two hours to set a tub? and by bath accents they can run the gambit and there is also much footdraging about where to put the accents, " i want them high and the wife wants them low so could you just hold it right there while i get my wife and find out if this is ok?"..... ever hear that?
blah blah blah
i guess after some thought i could bang this out in about 60 -80 without lost time from inspections and if the design was done on a budget.
round here baths seem to start at 20000 but often end up in the 25000 - 30000 dollar range ( for this you do get plumbing etc moved about)
james
last half turned blue again..... guess i should preview my messagae.
on another note .....
If i was to just pull out the tub and surround install new and patch behind the vanity for a pedistal sink and staple down some partacle board for a new sheet floor i could probably blow out of there in a couple of days and for not much $ at all.
james
I'm sitting here just shaking my head at that arm chair QB, cant believe you have the nerve to call me slow and pick at something i put out for someone elses benifit and yet leave no advice yourself other than
IM so cool, i can hand out criticizm and inject nothing of any use for the orignal poster.
If you are going to criticize then setp up and tell us
HOW LONG WOULD IT TAKE YOU?
james
Sorry, I didn't read into his job all those details he is talking about. I figured 50-60 hours (that would be with two guys)
Buat that was without all the curves he is throwing into the job. Just four walls, etc.
Craigmic
sorry for being short last night, my timeline was for a one man job... guess the man hours come out about the same + or - some.
james
I do a lot of bathroom remodels as well and I'm gonna say three weeks for what you have listed. Two weeks for a couple of skilled folks who work well together.
We do a couple of these a month. 7-10 days. If we don't gut them to the studs we can do one a week. DanT
When you say we, do you mean more then one person doing the work?
When you say we, do you mean more then one person doing the work?
I think he did mean him and his brother , but I was going to ask him the same thing.
Tim Mooney
Oh yea, how much ya makin Flip? See if these guys mouth starts watering ,..........
Tim Mooney
You'll probably choke, but a whopping $23.00 hr. w/ bennys
Let me be the first to guess. I bet that it took him about 96 to 100 hours - and his boss is going crazy trying to get him to do it in half that time.
LOL
Welcome to the
Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime.
where ...
Excellence is its own reward!
Me? About 6 months. More or less depending on how much my wife is nagging me, and how badly I need to use the potty.
Not only am I just plain slow, but I always like to take a good long time to consider how to do something before I do it. And, of course, everything is done evenings and weekends, but not when we're expecting company and can't have a mess.
me ....
as a boss I'd "expect" maybe 8 to 10 days ...
then I'd "estimate and charge for" 12 to 14 ...
but it'd be a 3 week job for me ... as all my stuff is licensed trade installed and instacted.
so I'm going with 15 days.
And it'll be nice!
fig'ure $1500 for the mechanicals subs ... labor
and $5400 for me ... so what's that?
$6900.
plus 20% .... 1380 ....
$8280.00
plus materials
not bad ... the "average" simple bath redo nation wide is $8K ...
and I'm above average!
Jeff
Buck Construction
Artistry in Carpentry
Pgh, PA
I figure about 50 hours, are you guys working 4 hours a day or what?
Whatever amount of time you did the work in, I would take twice as long , as soon as I was questioned how much time it took.
mike
As in...I only have two speeds, and if you don't like this one, you d*amn sure won't like the other one?
Yea, ...my judgement is for the defendant . Next case .
Tim Mooney
5 to 7 days, depending on the details.
I speak from experience.
But, not knowing the details of your job, this is just my humble opinion....
James DuHamel
He who dies with the most toys.... Still dies!
"For what will it profit a man if he gains the whole world, and loses his soul?" MARK 8:36
http://www.godsfreemusic.com
2 weeks close to 3...
proud member of the FOR/FOS club...
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming
WOW!!! What a Ride!
I'm on my 3rd bathroom redo this year. I just hired a part-time helper because the jobs are backing up. The FASTEST time I've done is 75 hours, almost total re-do, left the floor intact. I quoted 115 hours on the one I'm on now, with 30 hrs of helper time (145 total), and I'm an hour behind at 67 hrs. according to my time line list, (I give the HO a guide so they'll know also). We had to put a temporary shower and toilet in the basement first as they only had one bathroom. I feel for ya, I do it all also. Read the new post in general about the ceramic tile mosaic....this will slow a person down a little.... Keep a log of the time on the jobs you do. After a half dozen or so, you'll see a pattern form before your eyes. I can't say as I blame bosses for wanting to 'speed up' production, but like you, I put pride in the quality of work I do, and I wont jeopardize that for anyone. Show your boss the black and white time numbers, for each step, heck, you might even get a raise!! lol. If you like, I'll post a copy of one of my bids with the time lines so you can see what I'm talking about.
GB
Excellent post GB.
Please post that timeline, I'm very interested and I'm sure many others are too.
One of the things that makes your documentation so valuable is that the boss could use it to sell his jobs.
blueJust because you can, doesn't mean you should!
Warning! Be cautious when taking any framing advice from me. There are some in here who think I'm a hackmeister...they might be right! Of course, they might be wrong too!
Okay, this is the third time, if you get three post that look similar, sorry again.... Here is the bid for the bathroom I'm doing now. I took the names and cost off to protect the innocent....
GB
Here's the rest that wouldn't attach to the other post, hope it opens for you.
GB
Let's try this agin...
GB
Thanks for posting,
but you forgot the most important info.
The price! :-) <G>
RATS !! No wonder I'm drinkin' cheap beer and eatin' beans straight out of the can !! lol !
GB
Thanks GB. I may just try that on the next one. Any more info your willing to give will be appreciated.