20 unit loft project in an old food warehouse overlooking the mississippi…After 2 years of working on permits, plans and engineering… (about 100k so far) I’m down to the sprinkler system… as per our local code the sprinkler contractor/installer has to submit the plans… I went first with the 2 guys i’ve worked with before…. they were 180′ out from how they’d do it… (just in talking to them ) so i called a 3rd guy out… total different story from him… so i called a 4th guy… again total different story… I really don’t want to learn to install sprinklers all i want is a plan/install that will pass code make the inspectors happy and a firm price…
now i know there are many ways to do things… but this should be a pretty forward install… it’s all exposed pipe… very few floor to ceiling walls inside each unit… I hate wasting anyones time… but i’ve gotten 2 prices (i’ve requested a firm price before they commit any time to doing the drawing and i’ve offered to pay them on their terms… even 80% cash upfront if they give me a discount and are bonded)
ok so far i’ve gotten 2 prices back… 40k and 75k the 75k guy preached quality workmanship ect… the 4th guy out brought up issues i’d never heard from the first 3… not that i care…. all i want is an approved job and all these guys have been around for 50 years…
so how many bids are too many? given the fact that it has to be to code and approved design before they start… all exposed in a “warehouse type loft where anything ugly is “character” it’s almost a commodity like shop’n for metal studs… I tell em up front… this is my money out of my pocket…
if the bids were within 10% I’d go with who i liked and liked working with… when we start talk’n 35k lower i can like anyone….
btw… when a guy drives up in a 60k suv to give me a bid on anything it sure makes me wonder….
Replies
Your position seems to be that you don't care how it's done as long as it passes inspection, so why not just go with the 40K guy? Just make sure you don't give him too much dough before he hands you an approved plan.
"btw... when a guy drives up in a 60k suv to give me a bid on anything it sure makes me wonder.... "
Why? Because only developers should have decent rigs?
I'd base my decision on your financing situation and order of construction. IE. if you are doing sprinkers as one of the last items of construction and a slow job of putting them up will mean a delay in opening of several months perhaps your interest payments on the property w/ no money coming in would negate any savings from going with the more expensive guy. Sprinker codes can be subjective sometimes as well and what one guy interpreted as ok by code might not be ok'd by someone else, don't want to put money down and then have an inspector say the 6'x6' closet someone created inside a condo needs sprinkler coverage.
OT But no offense to you, I really hate the propagation of the idea that someone in the building industry has to drive a pickup truck(preferably oversized for their needs and of a older make), live in a working class area, and dress only in jeans and plaid. If the guy is driving a 60K SUV good for him, if his company is making good money he should enjoy it; plus most sprinkler work is commercial and doing commercial work in office buildings requires going to meetings in business dress sometimes. People constantly are shocked to hear that a construction worker/carpenter would go to a play or museum or live in an affluent urban area and it's suprising to hear that type of bias echoed on an industry forum.
-Ray
i knew i'd catch hell... on the 60k suv deal...
I'm always proud for anyone who has done well... for some reason I like to get the feel that the guy who gives me the bid has actually done the type work he is giving me the bid for at some time in his life... I don't like getting the feel the only time i'll ever see the guy is "for the sale"
having been on all sides of the fence including building it.. I usually feel guilty getting more than 2 bids... In this case when the bidder is doing the design & build of the system they bid, and I get 2 bids so far apart in design and price just makes me like getting that 3rd & 4th bid.... One guy that came out was almost interviewing me to see if the project really was going to be built and If I was going to be able to pay him if it was ... I have to say that was a first... but then i guess maybe he wasn't use to dealing with a guy in a t-shirt & jeans that had to stop laying bricks to talk to him...
pony
started out with nothing and have most of it left
How do you expect two different company to go out and design two different system and still expect them to be with in 10% . The only way to get two bids to come with in 10 % is if they have the same plans and the specks the same scope of work and bid on the same system. Not two completely different sets of planes and two different system and different scopes of work.
It sounds like you are not comparing an apple to an apple. You are comparing Golden Delicious apple to a duck.
"You are comparing Golden Delicious apple to a duck."
Yeah, but that's not as bad as it first appears. The duck is also delicious.
Rich Beckman
Another day, another tool.
And what was that about, if she weighs the same as a duck, then she floats, and she must be a witch....
And what was that about, if she weighs the same as a duck, then she floats, and she must be a witch
I saw that film too, excellent, I particularly liked the Holy Hand Grenade of Antioch
John
"I saw that film too"
Good. That explains why I suddenly have no idea what's being talked about...a film I haven't seen is being referenced.
That's OK, I am relieved to know it isn't my inability to follow a normal conversation (not that I have such an ability and not that there's any nomal conversations on BT....).
Rich Beckman
Another day, another tool.
a film I haven't seen is being referenced.
Monty Python and the Holy Grail. Might be worth a look if you get the chance
John
Thanks for all the input & thoughts...
I'll talk to the low bid guy (he came recomended from a friend who has used him) go over the job again... use the info/education I've gotten from other bidders to make sure everything is included/covered in his bid...... if everything seems right and he'll commit to the price as a "finished, installed, approved, signed off turn key system" based on my plans with no changes in my design... then i see no reason to pay someone else more even if it is for more sprinkler heads ect... I've questioned all of the bidders on the time issue and none seem to think it's a problem...
I guess like all systems you can make em basic or as complex as you'd like... this is one deal where i can't see the need to be "up sold"
again thanks to those who took the time to offer input and insight... this is the most bids i've ever gotten on any one item and i was feeling a little guilty about it... i hate anyone to waste my time as much as i hate to waste someone elses time...
pony
frist... i could go to an engineer get him to design the system... then put that system out for bid...
the problem with that is
A. different installers have different systems/brands they install
B. building to someone elses plans usually costs more & takes more time than doing it the way you are use to doing it
C. all the engineers around here work for the sprinkler co's so i'd guess they spec it where only they could bid it
D. I didn't ask for apples... i asked for an installed system... and told them Price would be the major factor ... at the risk of upseting a few folks... sprinkler systems are not rocket science... I understand the need for and the skill of a pipe fitter... I'm not slamming anyone on this... but my guess is 90% of the people on this board given a set of plans and material list could install 90% one if they've ever operated a pipe threading machine...
E. and yes they all had the exact same set of plans... and the grid/spray coverage for each head is pretty well set... the space for the main feeder lines is defined... they have to size the pipe per code...and the control valve/head is their choice... the stack is already in the building and live with the valve attached...
pony
I have never done residential, but 30 years ago I designed industrial sprinkler system. And at that time it was pretty much cook-book. As you indicated, the sprinkler head spacing and pipe sizes were spelled out. The only variables in open warehouses were how to deal with smaller areas such as under stairs and even that was pretty well spelled out. In our area we had to have extensive earthquake bracing, but even that was pretty standardized.
For whatever reason, about every sprinkler system I was associated with was installed by Grinnell. I don't even know what competition they had for really large factories and warehouses.
The quoted differences you gave would seem to me to be a bit excessive. I can certainly understand your point of view.
Is this a dry or wet system? Are they all quoting similar type decorative sprinklers of the concealed or semi-concealed type?
If you want bottom dollar, perhaps you could do like an artist friend of mine did in his loft. All the sprinkler pipe was fully exposed and he painted each segment a different, contrasting color. Looked, umm, interesting. Actually fit very well into his style.
Disclaimer - as I approach geezerhood, I guess I need to assume things may have chainged somewhat over the past thirty some years...
thanks for your input... it's a wet system... the building will be always heated...not that we have that many days that it'd matter... it's all under 30ft to highest floor level so no stand pipe required... less than 100ft to fire hyd... and less than 500ft to all parts of the building from 2 fire hyd...
it will be all exposed... and it will stay plain black pipe... min headroom in any unit is 11ft so clearance is not an issue... it's a 150yo building it is what it is... i'm not try'n to hide any mechanicals... all electric units... ect... the plans are pretty forward... I'm not argue'n anyones price and i won't try to beat anyone down or even ask if they can "refigure and give me a better price" ...this isn't trim work.... usually the only discount i'll ask about is if i get one for paying for the work up front
I learned when i was 15 and had restored an old MGA i did all the work ..frame off... and had it ready to paint... took it to a guy i knew did good paint work to shoot it for me.... i had all the material the car was paint ready... he gave me a price of $500 to shoot it & buff it.... i had $300 so i asked is there anyway you can shoot it for $300... without miss'n a beat... he asked if i wanted the $300 paint job vs the $500 job... i knew pretty quick i needed to find $200.00 more dollars....
i started out with nothing and i have most of it left
pony
I guess the problem you are having is that they are also the design person and they are all bidding it to their own specs. The only way to get it together is for you to ask for a bid on your specs from who you choose will bid. Theres no way their pencils are adding the same things. Ive been there and done that too. At least you should be able to cipher the language in their qoutes unless its not line listing , then you are in the dark which would be your fault .
Im going to pass on the SUV comment.
Tim Mooney
ok... got another bid today 94k.... i had to tell the guy he was high... he asked how much high... i told him 54k high.... he said... "well i might be able to do it for 70k i didn't know price was an issue....."
the design deal is.... I don't care.... i don't care what materials they use... (it has to be steel pipe for this job since it's exposed ie: plastic is allowed here)...
i really don't want to compare ... designs...material lists ect... i want a turn key price... design&permit&install.... i want no surprises... I'm not in the sprinkler business... I expect if they work with our code guys day in and day out they should know exactly what it takes to please them... the building is 100% gutted and I've given each guy a full set of plans and done a walk through with each guy...
As you've already figured out, sprinkler systems are usually design-build. The code requires certain coverages based on light hazard, ordinary hazard, etc., but the contractors usually do their own hydraulic calcs, piping layouts, etc. I'd get more info on the bids to determine what you're getting with each one- at a minimum, get head counts, coverage information, and info on whether they're providing detector check valves, zone valves, backflow preventers, flow switches, tamper switches, and so on.
Once you've got that information, you'll be able to intelligently compare the bids. If your $40k guy is only giving you 100 heads and is expecting the plumber to provide the check valves and BFP's, while the $75k guy is giving you 180 heads, the check vavles, BFP's, and floor zone valves, you can then see what the price difference is based on. It could just be that the higher priced sub doesn't want or need the work, or it could be that he has more scope.
Don't be so surprised that subs are asking about the project's financials- I've seen tons of residential redevelopment projects take a dump halfway through- it's only good business practice to know that funding is in place. You check out your subs (or you should....), so why shouldn't they check you out as well.
I won't even comment on the 60K SUV thing. I think enough has been said on that already...
Bob
a suggestion, head on down to your building dept., they will have the info on record, probaly even show you some of the completed blueprinted projects. Ask them point blank, "who would you choose". Ask them who's getting/doing most of the work. My observation of most people, they enjoy sharing information, and as you already know Ponytl, pay attention to who you are talking with. Or you could choose the scientific way-- flip a coin, and no, you can not do, two out of three