Replies

1. 
   Rob_Rehm | Aug 28, 2001 03:28am | #1

   *
   If I have done the same EXACT project before sure. Maybe even if it has been a very similar project. Usually when a # is thrown out it isn't the final #, it's high enough that what ever goes wrong is covered or it's a price to make them go away.If the owner is more concerned about price than you making sure you will get it right you may not want the job.

1. 
   Steve_Merrette | Aug 28, 2001 03:39am | #2

   *Rob, if I were well established and had people waiting in line for my services that would be the case. unfortunately I'm just starting out and have a family to provide for. I gotta take what I can for now so I can pay the mortgage and put food on the table. yeah it kinda sucks but that'll change eventually.

1. 
   Sonny_Lykos | Aug 28, 2001 04:09am | #3

   *Types as the one you mentioned are not usually quoted on the spot, unless as Rob stated, it's high to cover every contingency.Two points:1. You may come in lower that the instant price 2. The owner shoule be aware (by you telling them), that "accurate" pricing of that job cannot be instantly provided since there are too many details and considerations. That means it's to her benefit for the detail analysis you're doing.In fact you can blow him out of the water by making your Proposal, I mean SCA, very detailed.She probably doesn't know what whe will be getting from the other guy as far as rafter size & spacing, flashing details, etc.

1. 
   Rob_Rehm | Aug 28, 2001 04:13am | #4

   *Steve I feel your pain. Most of us have been there. i can't tell you how to judge wether or not to do the job without being there. Just be aware that no matter how desperate you may be, you are NEVER desperate enough to take a job that you might lose money on. If Sonny's second point dosen't take with the customer, I'd look for other work. At the very least get a down payment for materials with some mark up built in.

1. 
   Steve_Merrette | Aug 28, 2001 04:30am | #5

   *I'm way ahead of you guys. I told them, husband and wife were there this time, that my proposal (what's SCA Sonny?) was taking into consideration the loading of the roof, snowload etc., and that I was preparing the information accuarately because the town engineer would need to approve any design attached to the building especially a roof where there was a real concern for collapse and I cited some recent structure failures. I also mentioned that I was designing a structure that would look as if it was on the house originally not just "scabbed on".Rob, I i always get materials up front. as many have said here, I am not a lending institute and I am not going to risk loosing that kind of money if someone defaults.Sensei Sonny,Master I have done well?

2. 
   Mercer | Aug 28, 2001 04:08pm | #6

   *Usually a person that quotes a price on the spot usually has alot of extras that makes up for what ever he missed. There are too many variables that will bite you in the ass no matter how good you think you are. Anyway not to change the subject but a comment on your post" I am not a lending institute". A guy phoned me up and asks me to give a price on a house. Every quote he got he thought was to high. What the guy wanted was what they call a "turn key" job. In other words you finance the whole house from start to finish, including the subs and you get paid when he is able to walk into his house and can park his ass on the couch.

3. 
   Steve_Merrette | Aug 28, 2001 08:05pm | #7

   *i In other words you finance the whole house from start to finish, including the subs and you get paid when he is able to walk into his house and can park his ass on the couch.I thought they called those "spec homes". turn key was a term we used in engineering and it was something that was dreamed up by a suit that never built anything in their life. :)

4. 
   Sonny_Lykos | Aug 28, 2001 08:35pm | #8

   *"Turn Key" has nothing to do with financing of the house. It only means it's "move in ready." The owner will not hae to do anything other than having his furniture delivered.As opposed to the "I'll take care of the interior painting." or "I'll buy the carpet and have it installed.""Turn Key" means what it says, Turn the key in the lock and walk in. It's done.

5. 
   Jeff_J._Buck | Aug 29, 2001 01:21am | #9

   *Steve.....when I was on my own...I never gave a quick...on site price. Never did the same thing twice in a row. Hell......PT would change in price as I was trimming out interiors! Then the oak trim would jump as I was building a deck. Just do the detailed proposal.....set a time when ALL (usually both) decision makers are available....and thorougly explain it to them.....hit their hot buttons....sell their wants and needs....all that sales crap.......after you've forced them to look at all the pics in the portfolio....and then give the price options. Leave the one look/quick price tricks to the concrete guy and the slap them down roofers. Jeff

6. 
   Rick_Louquet | Aug 29, 2001 02:56am | #10

   *A former employer, a framing contractor, was asked by the job super of a 1200 unit adult community, to give a price for bays as an extra. This included cantilevering the floor, framing the walls, sheathing, setting 6 windows, framing the roof, and fascia. He looked in his rear window at one, and said "a hundred bucks." He lost money on every single one.Rick Louquet

7. 
   Jason_DD_ | Aug 29, 2001 03:02am | #11

   *Mr. Merrette:a little off the thread topic, but.... have you tried marketing yourself to other contractors as either skilled labor and/or a sub? especially if you have specific skills (engineering, vinyl siding...). would create positive cash flow and allow you to see how others are doing things while you get your own company established. of course, be up front about your motivations, so no one feels betrayed down the road. larger contractors may become a source of referrals of jobs too small for them to touch, or maybe you become a regular sub. if you get hired on for a project, you will have a pretty good idea of how to schedule future work.

8. 
   Steve_Merrette | Aug 29, 2001 03:47am | #12

   *Jason, you can call me Steve. and thank you for your suggestions. I have considered that and have talked to a few local companies but without any "construction experience" (read "who'd you work for before?") I'd make more money at McDonalds.

9. 
   Sonny_Lykos | Aug 29, 2001 05:28am | #13

   *Their fresh coffee is good! :-)

10. 
    Steve_Merrette | Aug 29, 2001 05:59am | #14

    *I'll probably be serving you a cup of it if you ever get up this way Sonny. Another local company (GPU) just announced they are getting rid of 1000 people. this follows lucent's recent layoff of 2000, agere systems' laying off 1200 and the company I worked for laying off 75% of it's workforce (we were small, only 450 employes) This city is soon to die I fear. And I can't afford to move!

11. 
    Ken_Layfield | Aug 29, 2001 06:18pm | #15

    *Steve, Its been my experience that the more detailed your quote the better. The client knows exactly what they are getting for their money. Example, Client needed to have the 1st floor joists replaced in an old victoria home. The detailed quote I gave included all work from replacing joists to all electrical and mechanical work. Some guy comes in and gives a verbal quote of about half that of mine. He gets the job of course. I get a call about a month later by the client to finish the job. The clown replaced the joists alright, but left them without power or HVAC on the main floor and get this uses deck screws to reattach the original pine floor to the new joists. My point is this for something small and straight forward, sure a verbal quotes alright. For something big, its in yours and the clients best interest to be as detailed as possible.

12. 
    Sonny_Lykos | Aug 29, 2001 09:05pm | #16

    *Steve, with Ken's permission, I'd print his post and show it to your client saying, "This is typical of those 'cheapie' quotes." then add, "So what was money was saved & what was the cost for aggravation?"

13. 
    Steve_Merrette | Aug 29, 2001 11:51pm | #17

    *I know this and you guys know this but people keep lying to themselves and think they'll get a rolex for the price of a timex, I mean they both end in 'ex' right? so they must be the same, right? I'll give my quote after running it by you sensei and see what happens.

14. 
    Mark_McDonnell | Aug 30, 2001 01:53am | #18

    *About two years ago a client was comparing my detailed bid with that of an other who had given an off the cuff quote......asking 'bout the diference, (mine was much higher) and I looked him straight in the eye, (with a little twinkle) and said,"Did he say- Ya want fries with that?"I got the job.It's OK to quote a price just by looking at it, but for your protection and the protection of your client and the protection of the outcome of the job, it ain't final 'till the owner reads and signs an agreement.It's in the details.

15. 
    Steve_Merrette | Aug 30, 2001 02:29am | #19

    *Mark, how long had you been in business when you did that? were you in your first 6 mos.? half of my problem is I have no idea what I am doing from a business standpoint. I have worked for big companies all of my career and was nothing more than a number in an entirely different industry. I don't know if that amounts to a hill of beans but it has me second guessing myself so much I'm not sure I'm even me anymore. am I?

16. 
    Mark_McDonnell | Aug 30, 2001 02:52am | #20

    *Fair enough Steve.........about 18 years.And what bothers you now won't bother you in just a few months.......that's what experience does. The point is, do your homework. And most people enjoy a guy with a a sense of humor.BTW, how is that relationship with the retire contractor working out?

17. 
    Steve_Merrette | Aug 30, 2001 03:29am | #21

    *I'm drywalling a room in the basement of his restaraunt this friday and saturday. he's putting in a little bedroom so he can kick back when he works late. he lives about an hour and a half from the place so sometimes he just stays there. kinda like a little apartment. anyway he knows I'm hurting for cash flow and this way he can check out my work too. one of the leads he gave me called me (I had left several messages with him) and we talked a bit. In the conversation it came out that the guys wife has cancer and he's been real preoccupied with that (understandably). I told him I was sorry and that I fully understood what he was feeling because I'm a cancer survivor myself. that opened up things even more and it sounds like this guy can keep me in work for a long time. I am going to meet with him hopefully monday and see if the money is there, especially seeing as it's about an hour to there . he's involved with real estate somehow, the homestead group, and kinda indicated that it would be alot of trim carpentry (thank god, something I know). back to Skip, the contractor, he also got a copy of my resume and is going to talk to a friend of his who is a head hunter to see if there is something in my field. Skip's a family man, 9 kids, so he knows what it's like to have a family and the agony of not being able to provide for them.Whew, long winded aren't I tonight.

18. 
    Steve_Merrette | Aug 30, 2001 04:13am | #22

    *UPDATE: I'm bailing on the roof job. I just don't have enough experience or knowledge to do structural design. I have tried to learn as much as I could on my own but it's just not enough at this point in time for me to be able to comfortably do the job. for now I will stick to the smaller jobs that I can handle and do well and hopefully work my way up to that level of expertise. I hope those of you who have been helping me along and giving me advice will understand. I'd rather do a small job very well than a large job half ass.

19. 
    Mark_McDonnell | Aug 30, 2001 04:29am | #23

    *Ah......the sound of developing wisdom......Took me 8 years to figure that one out.......

20. 
    Steve_Merrette | Aug 30, 2001 04:53am | #24

    *i Ah......the sound of developing wisdom...... And here I thought I had just had a brain fart Mark.

21. 
    Steve_Merrette | Aug 30, 2001 05:08am | #25

    *Mark, when you say detailed, how detailed. Sonny has been helping me with this and I haven't really come out and asked him (sorry Sonny) but when we all say detailed what exactly are we saying. I (head hung in shame again) have never seen a completed bid by a competent contractor nor for that matter have I seen one from an incompetent contractor, I've just never seen one period. I am used to writing technical specs for machinery and such but that is geared toward someone with a technical background. and I shouldn't be writing a procedure or should I? someone please send me an example of a completed bid so I can get the idea. It will be kept completely confidential. Thanks, Steve

22. 
    Jason_DD_ | Aug 30, 2001 06:40pm | #26

    *Steve:For the roof structural, perhaps you could just put an engineer's fees in as a line item. Of course arrive at that number as you would for any other sub. Then hire an engineer to do the engineering. This starts to enter the blurry distinction between being a builder and being a contractor, and being both.

23. 
    Sonny_Lykos | Sep 01, 2001 02:55am | #27

    *So, the plot thickens I'd be willing to bet a $100 bill to your $10 bill that when you first mentioned being an engineer, everyone here made the same assumption I did - that you were a "construction" engineer, not a "machinery" engineer. Had I known that I would have told you to get wet behind the ears by doing small projects for a year or two and too network before starting a larger project as that deck roof.

24. 
    Steve_Merrette | Sep 01, 2001 04:54am | #28

    *I might not have said it in this post but all over the tavern and the construction techniques I have always been clear about being an electrical engineer who was working my way towards being a carpenter. I have immersed myself in learning everything I can about construction. I am willing to bet that aside from structural design I could hold my own with most here for many many things. especially when it comes to hands on and doing quality work. I may not know the right phrase or "trade term" all the time, but I can get the job done and done right (maybe better because my heart is in it).

25. 
    Sonny_Lykos | Sep 01, 2001 05:56am | #29

    *Well I rarely drink so I don't hang around the "Tavern" much. :-)

26. 
    Ron_Teti | Sep 01, 2001 08:43pm | #30

    *Sonny I dont drink either so I have a coke in a dirty glass cuz im macho and the tav is kind of a rough place with all those blue collar types hanging out there and all :)

27. 
    Ron_Teti | Sep 01, 2001 08:56pm | #31

    *Steve,Im kind of like you, Im havent had much building experiance but I worked with my hands most of my life. But I like the building trades and always have. Ive going to school at night to learn all I can. Right now im taking a residential framing class. Its real indebth and takes a lot of time. I got a ton of home work and go to school 9 1/2 hrs a week. Ive been doing this for a while. i have excelled in finish work. Im getting pretty good at it. But there is so much to learn. Much like you Im very happy that I have a place like this to discuss things and I am grateful to all the skilled trades people here who freely give knowledgeable advice out of their hard learned experiance . Now I got homework to do.

28. 
    GACC_DAllas | Sep 04, 2001 04:32am | #32

    *Steve,"I feel your pain". However, the pain is more of a memory now, but the memory reminds me to be careful all the time. Kinda like that dull ache in your back that reminds you your not as young as you used to be.Figuring a job is like packing for vacation. You write things down you need to take, and then search your brain to see if you've forgotten anything, because when you get there, you don't want to go out and buy something you forgot.Same with figuring a job.Being the GC is easy (he sez ducking his head).Every other trade figures what they need on vacation and you just add 20% for your fee for being sure they don't forget their luggage. The hard part is finding people who know how to pack correctly. Some people over-pack, you know, the guy that takes his snow boots to the beach. You don't want to take him with you. Others forget their tooth brush and want you to go to the homeowner to get them one. I don't want him along either. Pick your subs carefully. You'll be spending a long time away from home with all of them.Quote a price off the top of me head? Did it once. Never again.Ed.

29. 
    Steve_Merrette | Sep 05, 2001 02:06am | #33

    *Thanks guys, I appreciate all of the support, wisdom and humor. I'm getting better with each proposal and maybe I'll get it to the point where I can actually start getting the jobs(even ones where I can actually make a profit). :o In the mean time it's spaghetti again tonight.

30. 
    GACC_DAllas | Sep 05, 2001 02:31am | #34

    *Steve,I'm having spaghetti too! My wife makes the best. If you think there is something wrong with that, then maybe you don't have what it takes.Go be a lawyer or something.Money ain't everything. If you don't know that by now, forgetaboutit.

31. 
    Steve_Merrette | Sep 05, 2001 02:42am | #35

    *Ed take a deep breath and count to ten. there now do we feel better? that's a boy repeat after me, it was a joke, it was a joke... ;)

32. 
    Sonny_Lykos | Sep 05, 2001 02:59am | #36

    *Maybe it's a joke to you Steve, but personally, having married an Italian, I'm fed up with pasta of one sort or another every Sunday. Funny how that wanes after 38 years. Guess I'll have to start making my old famous vegetable soup so I can dunk - (Gulp!) - Italian bread in it. :-)

33. 
    Tommy_B. | Sep 06, 2001 05:00am | #37

    *I could eat spaghetti every night. Meatballs optional, but appreciated. On the nights I don't eat spaghetti, rice will do. Maybe I'm one of the few with champangne money and beer taste.

34. 
    Ralph_Wicklund | Sep 06, 2001 06:16am | #38

    *I had spaghetti with meatballs and sausage tonight. Gonna have it again sometime next week. Yum. Might even have a meatball and sausage sub with some cheese melted on under the broiler. Late night snack would be a couple of cold meatballs from the bowl in the frig. My wife makes it up two pots at a time and freezes it.Rice is good too, but not usually with spaghetti sauce. Spanish Rice - another form of spagheti sauce.

35. 
    James_DuHamel | Sep 06, 2001 06:18am | #39

    *I love spaghetti. I'd eat it every night (no joke) if I could. It's about the only cooked meal I get. I eat lots of microwave type foods, and cook on the grill a lot. Stove cooked meals like spaghetti are a wonderful break for me.James DuHamel

36. 
    Sonny_Lykos | Sep 06, 2001 02:34pm | #40

    *AS long as you guys like spaghetti so much try it this Greek style variation:After boiling the spaghetti and put it in your plate, pour melted butter on it, the butter to the point of not, but almost browned. Salt and pepper and Im in heaven. Barb uses Italian cheese.

37. 
    Steve_Merrette | Sep 06, 2001 04:16pm | #41

    *Sonny that's what we eat when we can't afford sauce. :)

38. 
    Sonny_Lykos | Sep 06, 2001 05:40pm | #42

    *Sauce! Sauce! You're not Italian! You're a counterfeit! Italian's call it "gravy."

39. 
    Steve_Merrette | Sep 06, 2001 07:43pm | #43

    *Gravy? that's what you put on meat and potatos! I have only met one other person in my life that called it gravy and they were Irish! I'll let you talk to my family and they will set you straight. gravy, jeez!You're wife's family isn't from calabria are they?

40. 
    Ralph_Wicklund | Sep 06, 2001 08:29pm | #44

    *If you have spaghetti left over and have run out of sauce (gravy), mix in some butter, garlic salt and grated Parmesan cheese and heat it up in a frying pan.

41. 
    Sonny_Lykos | Sep 06, 2001 09:20pm | #45

    *I'll try that Ralph.Steve, Barb's mom was from Naples, Italy - high class. But her dad was low class, from Sicily, as I'm told the Italians thing of those two areas - but they all called it "gravy" as did their relatives.What's a matta you?

42. 
    GACC_DAllas | Sep 06, 2001 10:58pm | #46

    *It's 4 in the afternoon here in Dallas, and I got all of four hours sleep last night and have had one 7-11 hot dog all day.......Man you guys are making me hungry.A cold speghetti sandwich would taste great right about now and then a loooong nap.......ahahahahahahEd.

43. 
    Steve_Merrette | Sep 06, 2001 11:14pm | #47

    *My father's family is from Naples and my mom's from Messina, Sicily. interesting twist there. and it's sauce!

44. 
    Sonny_Lykos | Sep 07, 2001 12:46am | #48

    *OK, sauce OR gravy, as long as we don't cal lit what one of Barb's family does - "zugu."Sounds like "zoo - gu", the "gu" as in guru.No that's way out. Anyway, I guess it can be called anything as long as we're not called late for dinner, eh?

45. 
    Ron_Teti | Sep 07, 2001 03:58pm | #49

    *When i was a kid all we could afford was spagetti. i loved it. what I wouldnt give for a plate of moms sauce,pasta w/ sausage. we ate it sunday till it ran out then on sunday again she would put what ever was left over from the other meals in the week in the sauce.It was sooo good all the kids in the neighborhood would stop by on sunday. i have a friend who i knew back in the day and he still talks about moms spegetti. Now im a italian married to a mexican. what I wouldnt give for even a tuna cassarole ( think shes got macs and cheese down now)

46. 
    Sonny_Lykos | Sep 07, 2001 10:12pm | #50

    *Tuna fish casserol - one of my favorites, and Barb's happy cause it's cheap to make.Boy, did we get off the subject on this thread!

47. 
    Steve_Merrette | Sep 08, 2001 03:01am | #51

    *Funny how food does that. :)

48. 
    blue_eyed_devil_ | Sep 09, 2001 05:40am | #52

    *I like Micky D's coffee too!blue

49. 
    blue_eyed_devil_ | Sep 09, 2001 05:51am | #53

    *Steve, you missed an opportunity. Now, go out and find a real carpenter. Find one that does roofs. Ask him to act as your subcontractor for all complicated roof jobs. Tell him that you'll bring him the plans, he can bid it. Then, when you are up againsta roof that is too complicated, just use the sub.Bid it high and praise your subs.Also don't be afraid to insist on a structural engineer fee. Sub that out too.blue

50. 
    Steve_Merrette | Sep 09, 2001 06:11am | #54

    *Blue, I wish I had tried something like that. once again my ignorance got in the way. I don't know any of the local contractors so it's tough to know who's good and who's not. I'm not even from this area, I've lived here a few years that's it. I'm an idiot thinking I can make this work. can't get anywhere with this, no engineering jobs around I'm about broke. Time to find a job in a fast food joint. my god, my life's come to this. next I'll be homeless. Maybe I can find someone to adopt my family because I'm doing a really shitty job providing for them.

51. 
    blue_eyed_devil_ | Sep 09, 2001 06:48am | #55

    *Steve, don't give up hope. If necessary take that fast food job and do a crack job while your there. Next, keep working your business part time. Your bids and selling will be better. You won't feel so desperate.Have you contemplated doing anything other than remodeling? How about some real estate investing. You don't need money to start that. blue

52. 
    Scrapr_ | Sep 10, 2001 01:19am | #56

    *Good advice Steve. Try to locate a night job so that you can work days selling the remodeling. It will take a lot of pressure off. For some reason people can sense desperation. But if it's here's my price and what I will do they are more receptive. (generally) I did it for 2 years before I started full time. It gives you the luxury of working for who you want to work for. Freight companies always need help on 2 and 3rd shift unloading trailers. Usually they pay close to union scale so that would keep the bill collectors away. Good luck. Keep your head up.

53. 
    Schelling_McKinley | Sep 10, 2001 11:24pm | #57

    *Most small contractors around here started out doing side jobs. This is a great way to learn the business on a small scale while supporting yourself with your main job. It will keep you from being too desperate because your main problem will be finding time to do all the work. I should say it will be your main problem aside from not charging enough. Good luck

54. 
    Steve_Merrette | Sep 11, 2001 04:45am | #58

    *Schelling, FYI, I lost my main job. about 6 mos. ago I got laid off and the job market where I am is non-existent. This is all I have going for now.

55. 
    blue_eyed_devil_ | Sep 11, 2001 05:10am | #59

    *Steve, I forgot to ask you, or tell you, to go find another carpenter contractor and ask him for a job. Are there any subdivisions being built? Are there any crews working a little short? If so, concentrate on those subs. I remember seeking employment back in the last depression (80's). The guy didn't really want to hire me because I was asking too much money. He told me that he'd think about it and call me that night. Well, he didn't call. The next day, I showed up at 7 AM sharp anyways with my tool belt on. He looked surprised and stuttered something about not calling me. I just asked him where he wanted me to start. Reluctanly he let me start on a corner, filling in some pine work. At coffee time, he knew he was glad I was there. I had tied all the corners on the house while he had tied one.blue

56. 
    Steve_Merrette | Sep 12, 2001 02:41am | #60

    *Blue, this may sound stupid, but here goes anyway. I have gone to a pretty good expense to have my truck lettered. that being said what would you or anyone you know think if I rolled up and asked for a job? I'm asking that not because I want to be a smart ass I'm asking to know how I should handle it. I've driven by many of them and wanted to do just that but didn't know how it would be received. should I attempt as a sub or outright as an employee? would you in that situation, super or foreman, make me remove the lettering seeing it as something wrong or just let it go? Or would you just write me off as some jerk? I want to stay in business for myself if not right at the moment then down the road a little. I plan on being upfont about that and hope that it doesn't have a negative impact. Thanks for your input.

57. 
    Charles_C. | Sep 12, 2001 03:16am | #61

    *First off I know this will go against the grain here but I dont think truck signs do any more good than newspaper ads, and neither has ever worked for me. I would wonder why a guy with his truck all lettered up would need a job so badly but if you looked like you could do the job I would give you a chance. You might be better off showing up in the wifes car though.

58. 
    Steve_Merrette | Sep 12, 2001 04:22am | #62

    *i but I dont think truck signs do any more good than newspaper adsI'm curious, how do you propose that I get jobs if I don't advertise? I am not from this area. I know no one here so it's not like I have a network of friends who could give me leads the few friends I do have (ok the one friend I do have) does his own work and doesn't know anyone looking for anything. I live in berks county PA, which is notorious for people being about as unfriendly as they come. if you say hello to someone you don't know walking down the street they look at you like you just asked them for their firstborn. this may be different if you grew up here but if you're a transplant you may as well not exist by the local's standards. I'm not even from this industry originally. I am coming into this industry from electrical engineering where I was unhappy with what I was doing. that's why I'm here now because I relocated here for a job. If I didn't advertise via the truck and newspaper I can't see how anyone would even know I existed.

59. 
    Aaron_Rosenthal | Sep 12, 2001 07:58am | #63

    *Steve, welcome to the club. I got "downsized" last year at 55. Never worked construction but I can fix things around the house, so I started advertising in the local "free" community papers. Every month. Here, handyman business dies from November to March. I stall can't cover my mortgage every month, but I'm trying. I meet painters and contractors, and talk about my skills. I meet other carpenters and subs, and talk about my skills. I take a longer time than a 30 year old, but then I'm not 30.I know business development people - it takes 3 to 5 years to get your business up and confident about your abilities. I pass on lots of jobs if I don't have a sub I can work with/learn from. Keep trying.

60. 
    Steve_Merrette | Sep 12, 2001 07:33pm | #64

    *Aaron, thanks for the encouraging words. I have had my emotional ups and downs but will perservere regardless. I wonder though about the people who say advertising didn't work fo them. how did they get work then? it doesn't make any sense unless they were already in the industry and had contacts out the wazzooo. I hope you are or will be doing well.

61. 
    Charles_C. | Sep 12, 2001 11:00pm | #65

    *I have advertised and have had signs on my truck in the past and it didnt work for me. Sure I got a few jobs that way but I probably wasted more time doing estimates for people who never wanted anything but the cheapest price they could get and in the long run I dont think either one made me any money. Is it working for you? Doesnt sound like it. How did you get work in engineering, riding around with a sign on your truck or put an engineer for hire ad in the newspaper. I doubt it, and I know they are totally different fields but all jobs are the same to some extent. I started small and made very little money for several years as have most of the people I know. I prefer to only work through word of mouth advertising because it gives me an advantage when dealing with someone I know or who knows of me. From your description of your circumstances the only solution I see is to go to work for someone else even if it is part time. This may lead to other jobs on your own. In my first post I didnt say to take the signs off of your truck or to not advertise, I only said it didnt work for me. Most small businesses fail, that is a fact of life. I dont know anybody that started out and made money the first few years, at least not enough to be the sole provider for their family unless they had a substantial bankroll and a lot of contacts in the business.

62. 
    Schelling_McKinley | Sep 13, 2001 02:17am | #66

    *Steve- If there really is nothing going on in your market, if most of the contractors are short of work, then you are in for a hard time. It might be best to move. The rest of the country is going very strong. If the contractors in your area are busy, go to the best of these until you get hired. If anyone came to me and said he would give me a week's worth of work at minimum wage and then we could decide on a fair wage, I would hire him in a minute. Good luck.

63. 
    blue_eyed_devil_ | Sep 13, 2001 04:48am | #67

    *Steve, what is the worst thing that could happen if you go up there and ask for a job? If they don't want to hire you because of the ads, just tell them that you'll turn over any work that comes your way, while you are on their job, because of the ads.I've hired many guys that couldn't scrape up enough remodeling work. I don't mind that they've got some ads running on their truck. Most guys do side jobs and no one will probably think anything of you. You probably look more qualified than most.I'm not going to agree with Schilling. When a guy is willing to work cheap, I usually don't think that much about them. If a guy claims he is worth 30 per hour, I want to know why. I'm interested.blue

64. 
    blue_eyed_devil_ | Sep 13, 2001 04:57am | #68

    *Steve, keep your truck ads unless you intend to quit the business. Truck lettering adds credibility to your business. Items like printed forms are very powerful negotiating tools. Jobs signs are good too. It doesn't sound like there is much work there. Have you tried newspaper ads? I always got some response to the local Service Ads that I ran. I wasn't always profitable, but I got jobs....I like roughing houses precisely because I only need to close a few sales per year. For instance, I'm presently framing a house for a builder that I haven't worked for in a few years. It took on call and a half hour drive to pick up the plan and agree to a 16.3k job. The actual negotiating on price took all of 30 seconds. It beats the hell out of selling a new homeowner twenty or thirty times a year.Get hooked up with a contractor, or move to a busier location. If you move, I can give you some tips on buying a house with little or no money down.blue

65. 
    Steve_Merrette | Sep 13, 2001 05:14am | #69

    *Blue, I have been running on and off ads in the local merchandiser, have gotten a few calls but most are nickel squeezers that barely want to pay for materials much less labor. the local news paper wants almost $48/day for an ad you'd need a microscope to see so I haven't done anything with them. I don't want to get out of the business. crazy as this may sound I want to do this kind of thing despite the horror stories Ed and the others are saying about barely making it. (yeah I'm an idiot, what can I say)I am seriously thinking of moving, I'm just at a point where I don't know how because of my job situation. technically I have been out of work for almost six months and if I sell my house I'll be lucky to get a couple thousand out of it after paying off the bank. the real estate market here isn't too good either. I'm not sure how I'd be able to even get an apartment if I move because 1) I'd be moving to a new area with no job to speak off2) Nobody in their right mind would rent to someone with no income3) I couldn't even think about another mortgage, see reason 2 but substitute bank for nobody and mortgage for rent. As much as it isn't the "manly" thing to say, I'm just downright scared and don't know what to do. I'm 38 and I feel like a little frightened child. as I've said before the stress alone is eating me alive.

66. 
    blue_eyed_devil_ | Sep 13, 2001 05:37am | #70

    *I know how you're feeling Steve. Having no money sucks. Getting lousy little remodel jobs suck too.First, go hustle that job. Second, decide if you are going to move. You probably can sell your house for more than you think, if you are willing to sell it creatively. That might mean that you would be looking for someone with "bruised" credit. Someone like yourself. You can sell your house over fair market value, by offering low money down and e-z financing. Basically, you will probably make your best deal by letting the buyer "assume" your mortgage, give you some sort of downpayment, and also give you a second mortgage at a somewhat higher interest rate. You will be somewhat at risk if you let them "assume" your mortgage, but there are ways to minimize the potential for loss. When you travel to your new location, you can buy a home with little or no money using a lease option. By concentrating your search for your new home, to those that are "motivated" sellers, you should be able to land a pretty decent deal. It would not be unthinkable to find seller that is so motivated to sell, that they would give you a nice, two year lease option, with no more money down than a one month rent and a security deposit. Of course you need to keep your payments up, but if you are in a booming town, you'll be able to find work.You might also sell your house lease option. I'd want a substantial option payment, however. If I'm buying lease option, I pay less.The interesting thing about buying lease option, is that you can immediatly sell it, and quite possible make a handsome profit. I wouldn't like to keep moving my family, but if I need to, to pay the bills.... I might just move once, when I got to my new city.Don't fret. Go read the Rich Dad, Poor Dad book at the local bookstore or library. Then report back to me. Incidently, go to RichDad.com to learn a little more about some of this real estate stuff.blue

67. 
    Mark_McDonnell | Sep 13, 2001 02:14pm | #71

    *Steve, Good advice from all, thanks blue..Define what you need in income to remove this "eating me alive stress".No way you can run a business with the way you are telegraphing this stress. Get a job to pay your bills and do jobs on the side, at night, on the weekend. Walk right on to any job, any cabinet shop, anything that looks like construction and TELL them your ready to go to work.We're funny folks and we all tend to like guys with balls. Hold your head high and swing 'em.And that's if you don't have the money to move.If you can move, post a wanted ad at this site and others and see what you can get. I can't find a helper to save my soul, must less a carpenter who can read a tape. Location.......But define what you must have first.

68. 
    Steve_Merrette | Sep 13, 2001 09:55pm | #72

    *Mark, $700 a week will pay the mortgage, bills and utitlites. nothing left for health insurance though. doesn't look good.

69. 
    Mark_McDonnell | Sep 14, 2001 02:27am | #73

    *Remember, if you are in business for yourself, consider health insurance as a legitimate expense.So you need a job paying $20.00-$25.00 with health insurance. As a business, you need to gross at least $1000.00 a week.And that will strand you where your at now. Not good.Truck, tool and body failure all cost money.How's the market for those control panels you build? And related specialties?Does the idea of a full time job, and building panels and other "bench" work, at night, appeal to you for right now?

70. 
    The_Tennis_Court_Builder_...on_t | Sep 15, 2001 03:21am | #74

    *Work for a specialist...You will shine quickly and be worth the pay you ask for.Remodelling is very hard to do well at a fast money making pace. Avoid it unless you are willing to work for very little.near the stream,aj

71. 
    The_Tennis_Court_Builder_...on_t | Sep 15, 2001 03:33am | #75

    *Steve...rethink your $$ situation now before it gets worse. You must spend less than you make or make more than you spend...One rule I had for years....If I am working, I am not spending money...so then I am helping myself both ways...near the stream,ajYou may have to work 3 jobs as some do...or dump the expensive house...but you must do something...One more note...You are not making any money with your time online.

72. 
    Steve_Merrette | Sep 15, 2001 03:47am | #76

    *i You are not making any money with your time online. Tell me about it! I have to chuckle a little. all this advice to find another job while I build this up. hell that's why I'm doing this now, there's no work here. about all I could find is a minimum wage fast food job around here. the very best would be something like home depot. this area sucks better than a hoover! I have been looking ot get out of the area and see what I can find if I can sell the house. my neighbor's wife left him and is filing for divorce so he has to sell his house to pay the support the courts are taking out of his paycheck. he has had his house on the market for month at a very reasonable price and hasn't gotten a nibble. we have over 3,000 people in this area that have been laid off within the last 6 mos. The real estate market here is a buyers market for sure only no one has any money and no one in their tight mind would want to move to someplace as depressed as here. I've finally got a headhunter who might be able to get me the hell out of here. I don't want another design engineer position. I hate sitting at a desk. rather I'm trying to get into a tech or maintenance position. possibly as a supervisor or something but something that let's me keep my hands on equipment. I have supervised crews all over the world during various plant start ups in the past and with being fluent in Spanish I figure I'd be a shoe in in most places in the US. I plan on still keeping with the home improvement thing but as a side job then.

73. 
    piffin_ | Sep 16, 2001 04:13am | #77

    *Steve,just a few thoughts to encourage or give example....When moving to a new area (which I've done before) I went for a drive, hitting every little side road and stopping at any thing that looked like a construction site. Excavation time is good cause they're just ramping up a new project. My speciallty was roofing so if I made contact when they started framing, I'd have a job in three weeks or so. I talked to concrete truck driverw to find out wherre new work was going on. When I got into remodeling, I headed for all the real estate offices. Now these guys are cheep, trying to do the most for little but good for contacts. One job can always lead to another when you do good work and play the cards right. They have an abundaance of work on homes. Prep to get them market ready. Clean and paint.(Don't let'm say, "I'll pay you as soon as it sells" - the sale date is indefinite and you lose your chance for a lein.)They manage rentals for absentee owners and when a rental changover happens, it's clean, repair and paint.If the prospective new owners come while you're working there - you've got a lead. If you get along with the realtor, he'll give you a lead. Most dollars spent on remodeling is done immediately after a new owner takes control. Now that new owner is likely newer to the area than you are. You are just as well established in their eyes as someone who's been there for twenty years - it's getting to meet them and be referenced to them that counts. A portfolio of photos of your work helps if you have one.You've just got to beat on doors.For part time work meanwhile, have you tried drafting on a piecework basis? it seems that one with an engineering background would have the basics there. If you are doing drafting in construction, you are making contacts. Just be careful not to cross a line here. You can't take clients from the man you are drafting for but you might be around when he tells someone, "I can't do that for you, It's out of my line" or You can just let him know you are looking for other hands on work and please keep me in mind.I too have never had much luck with newspaper ads or truck signs. The ads were mostly to make the phone number readily available next to joe blow Contracting in a listing they had so people could see mine too. The truck painting served for consumer confidence. A couple of times folks told me that they knew I planned to be around for awhile because of the invewstment in painting or that They knew I was a professional because it didn't look like it just came from the demolition derby. I've jst finally had a good ad in the paper that seems like it produced a couple leads but it contained an awesome photo and the copy was written like an article instead of an add. Photo got their eye and they just kept on reading. Some local papers do a weekly article in the busines section about a new business - you might look into that.Above all, when you get those leads you ned to exude confidence. not bravado like Al Gore claiming to have done or invented everything under the sun, just pure and simple confidence.

74. 
    blue_eyed_devil_ | Sep 16, 2001 11:30am | #78

    *Steve, I got a new idea after reading Piffin's posts.INSURANCE REPAIRS!There's a ton of money in insurance repair. Place a little ad and give them a 24 hour number for emergency. Then, bring your contracts to every job and be prepared to write very large contracts. blue

75. 
    Sonny_Lykos | Sep 17, 2001 12:30am | #79

    *Piffin, that was an excellent post with a tremendous amount of info and ideas for anyone just starting out. About Blue's suggestion re: insurance loses, at one point in Michigan about 80% of our sales were from insruance jobs via 5 or 6 insurance companies, and just with a fixed price, no line item by line item cost breakdown as is their normal procedure.

76. 
    Steve_Merrette | Sep 17, 2001 01:32am | #80

    *guys you are all too much. thanks. I have been scouring the paper and found a couple of construction companies that are looking for carpenters and laborers. I'm going to call tomorrow first thing on my way to a fence job I'm doing and see what I can generate. the ads mention benefits and 401k and such so they must be decent sized outfits. with that in mind and me not having any "previous experience" working for anyone other than me.(I can do just about anything I just don't always know what it's called) I'm wondering what would be a reasonable wage. I have all my own tools, enough, and then some, that I could pretty much build, wire, and plumb a whole house, just not do the foundation work. I don't have scaffolding but I shouldn't need that to work for someone else unless I sub. I realize that it has alot to do with the area, but what are some ballpark figures?

77. 
    Mark_McDonnell | Sep 17, 2001 01:39am | #81

    *Steve,You can play it safe and tell them you have very little hands on experience, but plenty of tools and a willing attitude. $8-$15 per hourORYou can tell em you can handle anything they can throw at you.....$12-$27.00Ask what they pay....low to high.Ask what service they need.....And take whatever they give you.......you can always get an other job next week..Luck

78. 
    Steve_Merrette | Sep 17, 2001 01:44am | #82

    *Thanks Mark. I'd realsitically need 22.5 to get by right now, but I think if I get creative with my creditors, talk to them and try and work out something I could get by with less for awhile.

79. 
    Steve_Merrette | Sep 17, 2001 01:46am | #83

    *This could be a great education as well. if I can work with more experienced people rather than just talking to them I'm positive I can learn alot.

80. 
    Mark_McDonnell | Sep 17, 2001 02:26am | #84

    *Steve, Not to bust your bubble, but a top drawer company carpenter, usually trim and staircase, gets $22.50.Take what you can and work on the side. And your right about the experience/ education fringe.....Exploit it!

81. 
    Steve_Merrette | Sep 17, 2001 03:05am | #85

    *No bubble busted. I merely stated what level of debt I'm at. I will have to work through that, that's all.

82. 
    The_Tennis_Court_Builder_...on_t | Sep 17, 2001 05:30pm | #86

    *Steve...you need to work 60 hours a week at $12. That is fair.near the stream,aj

83. 
    blue_eyed_devil_ | Sep 18, 2001 02:57am | #87

    *Steve, what AJ said is right. 70 hrs @ $12 sounds about right. I've done it and worked more. I've done that and did estimates, purchasings, drawings etc. That's the price you pay for entering the trade. If you place an ad and offer to do emergency insurance repair work, with a 24 hour number, you might get a few $250 per hour board ups in the middle of the night.Insurance...that's the ticket. I'm placing my ad this week since housing is getting so slow here and it looks like I'm stuck through the winter....blue

84. 
    Steve_Merrette | Sep 18, 2001 02:58am | #88

    *AJ, you're assuming no taxes there. I'd have to work 81.01851852 hours assuming a tax rate of 28%. would my tax rate be lower now because of the lower hourly rate? if so adjust accordingly.

85. 
    Steve_Merrette | Sep 18, 2001 03:09am | #89

    *Had an interview of sorts today. local builder ran an ad for carpenters. I called first thing, left a message and they called me back and interviewed me this evening. they wanted to have me come right over but I started a fence job today and was already at the site when they called me back. anyway, the owner looked at my application and you should have seen his face when looking at what I had been making at my last couple of jobs. I told him that I was obviously not expecting that kind of salary for carpentry work and explained what had happened, what was happening and what I wanted to do. I told him that I was trying to start my own home improvment and repair business but as he was probably aware it was tough breaking into the field especially as I'm not from the area originally. he agreed and we talked a bit about various things. he seemes extremely impressed with my knowledge of the building code and that I was basically self taught. we then discussed working for a 1099, in other words being a sub for him and I told him that I would really like that as I still get to keep my name out there and he doesn't have to worry about taxes and such. so next week he's going to have me bid on a few things (supposedly, I'll believe it when I actually get the call), kitchen and bath mostly and see where it goes from there. any advice guys on being a sub? do's and don'ts, things to watch out for? stuff like that. thanks.

86. 
    blue_eyed_devil_ | Sep 18, 2001 03:13am | #90

    *Steve, subbing is great way to add revenue to your company balance sheet. Don't be too cheap. If you think you can 1099 for $20.00, ask for $30. If you think the job is 50 hours, bid it at 100 hours. Then do an excellent job.blue

87. 
    Sonny_Lykos | Sep 18, 2001 03:48am | #91

    *I like Blue's idea. Start at $30 cause the nice thing abour being a sub is you can raise your charges rate as things imporve or you become more i demand. Not so when working as an employee as "X" amount per hour. And what ever you think the job will take, increase it by at least 50% since all newbies under estimate substantially.Of course, you already know the flip side of being self employed.

88. 
    Steve_Merrette | Sep 18, 2001 03:50am | #92

    *i Of course, you already know the flip side of being self employed. yeah, I'm a glutten for punishment. stupid stupid stupid

89. 
    Steve_Merrette | Sep 18, 2001 03:52am | #93

    *i And what ever you think the job will take, increase it by at least 50% since all newbies under estimate substantially. Who me? I'm the king of underestimating! I'll get it right one of these days, hopefully not too late though.

90. 
    blue_eyed_devil_ | Sep 18, 2001 03:52am | #94

    *Right Sonny.Steve, don't be afraid to bid 'em high. The guy will cut you no matter how much you tell em. If he doesn't cut you, and you end up with a huge profit, you can always rebate him.blue

91. 
    Steve_Merrette | Sep 18, 2001 03:54am | #95

    *Rebate? what's that? ;)

92. 
    blue_eyed_devil_ | Sep 18, 2001 03:59am | #96

    *Well actualy Steve, if you ever have such a big profit, that you could offer a discount, you'd be winning a supplier for life. blue

93. 
    Steve_Merrette | Sep 18, 2001 04:11am | #97

    *Wouldn't that be nice.

94. 
    Mark_McDonnell | Sep 18, 2001 04:26am | #98

    *Great advice Blue & SonnyDon't ever rebate..........you owe him a favor.Remember, figure what the job is worth. Don't worry 'bout hours, gonna take you longer than others, as it should.Also, this guy has to pay someone to do it. Follow Blue's and Sonny"s advice on pay and knock the guy out with service. Just don't get your nose brown. (I hate that!) Do not: Start w/o a deposit, a small, symbolic one will work.Have him provide and pay for all the material.Have weekly drawsFind out who takes care of the trash.Bathroom?Clean-up?Luck

95. 
    Schelling_McKinley | Sep 18, 2001 04:37am | #99

    *Steve-Subbing is a great way to go for you. I don't know how many times I wish that there was someone available around here to do a small job that we just don't have time for. We try to get a couple of people who we have confidence in all the work they can handle but usually they are too busy. A small job for a well established outfit is a big job for you.Give a good high price. Figure the materials and labor carefully and double the labor. The contractor already has in mind how much it would cost if he did it and you can be pretty sure that he will make money at that price. This is much more straightforward than dealing with the actual client. This guy knows his costs and understands your need to stay in business. He will probably be more concerned with your ability to do the job well and on time. He will not want any callbacks. If your price is way out of line, he will tell you, though if the job is too small for him, this may not make much difference. He may just let the customer decide whether they want it done. If this first job goes well, more will be in the pipeline. He may also hire you for when he really needs an extra hand and will be willing to pay a premium for your services. Hey, this sounds so good, I maybe should try it myself.

96. 
    Sonny_Lykos | Sep 18, 2001 05:30am | #100

    *"Hey, this sounds so good, I maybe should try it myself."Schelling, I'm reading you rpost and the last sentence got to me. That is "actly" where part of my sales will come from upon resuming my "small job projects" company come Oct. 1st. We got a client who lives in a high rise. His condo is on the first floor which is one story high, under the parking area. A screened porch (lanai) about 5' x 50' with screening floor to ceiling, but water coming into the walkway also bringing dirt. The other side of the screening is a roof over the driveway, and a roof is reinforced concrete wit columns every where and will hold a tank.The client, with the condo Board's permission, wants us to remove the screening and aluminum framing, build a 20" high knee wall by 50' out of 2 courses of 8x8x16 block with a 4" cap block, drill rebar into the concrete roof and fill those cells, stucco, prime and paint, and rebuild the screen wall from the cap block to the ceiling.Block work includes about $300 in material and a piece of cake. Block lifted to the roof over the driveway from the driveway and spread around instead of all in one area. Maybe 3 days of work for block and stucco. The cheapest bid we got was $4500 jsut for the block work and stucco - no painting or screen work. I can do it in 3 days with painting - (no screen work) for $3200 making over $100 per hour for myself after paying a helper. And obviously I cannot lay block as fast as a pro and especially a younger pro. And I can do the rescreening & framing also.We just can't get people to do these small jobs or small parts of larger jobs.

97. 
    Steve_Merrette | Sep 18, 2001 11:08pm | #101

    *I started calling the builders with want ads for carpenters or helpers. I introduce myself and what I can do and that I am available as a sub. tomorrow I'm meeting with one of them to discuss things already. this may be just the shot in the arm I needed. got my fingers crossed.

98. 
    James_DuHamel | Sep 24, 2001 10:11am | #102

    *If you are a Sole Proprietor, your tax rate is gonna be closer to 42%.That self employment tax is a bitch!Work for someone else if ya gotta, but be willing to work some LONG hours. You need to unload some of that serious debt you got. It is nothing more than a stone around your neck.James DuHamel

99. 
    Steve_Merrette | Sep 25, 2001 03:30am | #103

    *Mark, unfortunately the only way to unload my debt is to sell the house. catch22, seeing as I have no real income I can't get another place so I have to stay here. no one will risk renting to an unemployed person (my business still isn't generating enough income yet to cover it all) and I certainly wouldn't be able to get another mortgage right now. so...

100. 
     The_Tennis_Court_Builder_...on_t | Sep 25, 2001 03:46am | #104

     *Steve...stop boxing yourself in. Any problem has solutions. You need to list solutions and pick one, try it..and try another till you are on a road that works. Renting is an option to others...or selling and renting yourself...action time...action.near the stream seeing you make it,aj

101. 
     Steve_Merrette | Sep 25, 2001 03:54am | #105

     *AJ, I don't have options til I have an income. this is the catch22, I need an income to have options but if I have an income I don't need the options. the toughest thing is right now I have my shop set up in the basement. if I have to sell the house what do I do with all of my equipment? if I can't afford a house how can I afford rental space to store my equipment? if I sell my equipment then how do I earn money? these are the things that I'm currently wrestling with. and yes I will make it somehow someway. I didn't get this far by being a quitter. I'm just not at the point where I have it figured out yet...yet.

102. 
     Rob_Rehm | Sep 25, 2001 04:02am | #106

     *Steve, have you tried barter? Don't laugh. My shop is set up in a freinds plant in return for labor only on his house & shop. I pay no utilities & have access to the loading dock, forklift & other equipment. It also helps to have my favorite lumber yrd out the back gate. You might find a similar deal by asking around. Alot of small business owners love the idea of barter. I've only been in this town 41/2 years & also get haircuts & internet service this way.

103. 
     Steve_Merrette | Sep 25, 2001 04:11am | #107

     *Interesting angle Rob. I'll have to look into something like that. BTW where exactly are you?

104. 
     Rob_Rehm | Sep 25, 2001 02:40pm | #108

     *At the moment hiding in my office wishing the rain would quit & a door that is 6 weeks overdue would show up. Or, Delaware, Ohio. About 15 miles north of Columbus or 22 miles west of Doug Hubbards if he hasn't moved to Texas yet.

2. 
   Steve_Merrette | Sep 25, 2001 02:40pm | #109

   *
   I'm working up a proposal to add a shed roof to an existing deck. I'm new so I'm a little slow and careful. the owner tells me that one guy stopped by and quoted her a price right on the spot. she say she's nervous about where I'll come in because I stopped by a second time to check out some of the details. I have pictures posted over in construction techniques. the thread is roof tie in problem or something like that. it's got a tricky framing detail where the roof and building tie in and I'd need to tie in the new roof. I'm just trying to cover my but and be cautious because I don't want to loose money on it. anyway have any of you from experience or whatever just spit out a number like that just by looking at a job?