How should I heat four 700 sq. ft. apartments?
I’m redoing a very very old 4 family in CT. There are 4 equally sized 2 BR units, which are about 700 sq. ft. Currently, half the home is heated by oil. The other half is heated by ghetto stoves with heating vents on the side. The water heaters and stoves are also all gas. There is absolutely no way I’m not going to put individual heat into each unit because I never want to get stuck with someone else’s insanely high gas or oil bill. That presents a dilemma though, because now I need to fully install 4 full heating systems from scratch. I figure I’ll be getting rid of the old oil fueled burner and oil tank and go from there.
My original idea is that I could do four 45k btu forced air units, but I figure that would run me about $3k each everything included with my connections. Spending that much to heat a space that has basically been heated with one space heater for the last 100 years kills me. 4 furnaces and all that ductwork seems ridiculous for such small units. So that would make about $12-13k total for forced air.
Then I thought why not just do electric baseboard? I’ll have the wall all completely gutted. I can get cheap electrical work from my E-1 friend, and I can help him with pulling wires, staples, etc., so I can probably get it done for about $3-4k total for the entire house. I know it’s not the best heatsource, but for $10k less than forced air, it’s not a close decision.
Is there another option I haven’t realized? Something close to the price of electric baseboards, but of better quality?
Replies
First off, what are the options? You have oil and electric. Is the "gas" propane or natural gas?
You might check: Depending on state law you may be able to put in a single zoned system with meters and then bill for the amount of time the thermostat called for heat.
If you heat with electric the smart renters will go elsewhere, since they know that electric costs an arm in an older, poorly insulated building. Are you really hoping to attract the dumb renters?
The building has natural gas. There's no insulation now, and since I'm gutting the place, I'll be fully insulating it. I was also thinking of putting two zones in each unit, one for the living space and one for the bedrooms to cut down the bills. In a unit that small, is the electric bill really that much more than the total gas and electric would be?
What is this single zone metered heat you're talking about? I'm not familiar with it, is there any webpages or something you can point me to? Do you have any idea how much it would cost for a 2900 sq. ft. building?
I've never actually seen anything on a metered system, but basically I see it operating like this: You have a regular 4-zone heating setup. Each apartment has the usual thermostat for the zone, wired in the usual way, but the thermostat also activates an hour meter. Each month you add up the hour meters and apportion the total gas bill according to how much each apartment used.
This would be legal in some states but not others.
A three zone system adds about $1000 to the cost of a HE GFA unit. Four zones would be more expensive, since you'd probably have to get a more specialized furnace. The hour meters might be $100 a shot, plus maybe some $$ for relays. The hard part would be finding someone to do the work -- you'd need a commercial HVAC guy who knew how to deal with relays flow rates and such.
A zoned system would be illegal, codewise, in many places, because the units would share return air, mixing and possibly irritating each other. Not the kind of headache a landlord wants.
Depending on compartive energy costs in your area, you might find that electric baseboards or wall heaters, will not be all that expensive for the occupants, since they likely share heated walls, floors or ceilings. And because baseboards allow the occupants to heat each room as needed.
Yeah, you're probably right about that, now that I think about it.
Take a look at the heatpump systems used by motels. There are other similar units that can be zoned.
(I'd also do a super job on the insulation. Cells and sheet foam to get an R-30 wall and R-50 cieling. Then electric heat might not be so expensive to use)
Dual wall heater?
http://gasheaterstore.3dcartstores.com/Empire-Model-GWT50NG-50000-Btu-Gravity-Vented-Wall-Furnace--Natural-Gas_p_114.html?gdftrk=gdfV2734_a_7c856_a_7c3349_a_7cGWT50NG
4 furnaces
4 of the smallest furnaces you can get (40MBH), will cost about half what you estimate, $1200 to $1500 each, if the units pay separate gas. Should cost no more that $8 or 9k total, installed. If you're providing heat as part of the rent, a small efficient boiler with hydronic baseboards (zoned by apt) would cost you the least.
$9k compared with $3k? What would make this a close decision?
The $8-9k you mention doesn't include the ductwork and ductwork installion, register grills, etc., does it? The cheapest and smallest units I've seen online were 45k BTU units for like $500. Can they really be fully installed for $700-$1000 total?
The $8-9k you mention doesn't include the ductwork and ductwork installion, register grills, etc., does it? The cheapest and smallest units I've seen online were 45k BTU units for like $500. Can they really be fully installed for $700-$1000 total?
Even if it is a good amount more, I dont think it could possibly be enough to persuade me to spend an extra $10k, and not even $5k. How much would 4 heat loss tests run me? It can't be that cheap. Unless there's some other choice that I don't know about that'll cost about $6k or less, then I can think of no major reason to not just put in electric heat for $3k.
If you're interested in a cheap initial install and don't care about long term operating cost, electric baseboards might be the best thing. If you're so inclined you can find freeware that runs heat loss calcs if you put in the parameters. Not difficult.
Options Options
Good time to consider your options. Could simply compare the cost of gas vs. electricity on a Btu basis. Normally electricity will be roughly 3 times that of gas.
Heating options - wall furnaces. Central locate one, maybe? two back to back?? Depending on the apartment config. this may give you enough heat for the entire apartment. A friend of mine did some this way
Hydronic baseboard heat ... could zone stat each w/ a valve to each baseboard.
Ducting in an existing could be awkward as you indicated.
Possibly wall mounted units like the other poster suggested ... but they are often all electric and ...may need to put one in each major room.
Hydronic baseboard gives you some flexibility w/ maybe least impact. Could use central single boiler and then meter the pump use at each unit.
Much will depend on your configuration ... e.g. crawlspace, basement, slab on grade, attic, open/closed plan, etc.
I agree w/ the other poster that electric heat might attract the wrong tenants who have no more respect for you than you for giving them expensive heat options.
This will be maybe the only time you do this in 20+ years ... try to make the best of it. Give it plenty of thought. Gather lots of opinions, options, and issues.
"I agree w/ the other poster
"I agree w/ the other poster that electric heat might attract the wrong tenants who have no more respect for you than you for giving them expensive heat options."
This is a super weird thing to say. It is not a landlord's job or responsibility to unnecessarily spend a lot of extra money on their tenants. If I was thinking about renting a place with electric heat, it would certainly be a negative on the checklist. But to say I immediately wouldn't respect the landlord is ridiculous. "How dare you not spend an extra $10k so I can save $500 on my heating bill! I'm an American! Well, I hate you too!".
Besides, I'm probably going to go section 8 on the thing, so it'll probably get filled up with 22 year old single welfare mothers. If they think I don't respect them, I'll live. If theyre receiving $12k+ a year of taxpayer money to live rent free in a very nicely redone 2 BR apartment, then them paying an extra $500 a year in heating bills does not break my heart.
Plus I'm insulating the place well, there's a bunch of shared walls, and also there's storm windows and new doors with good weatherstripping. While it will certainly be more expensive than anything else, I don't think it'll be bankrupting anyone.
Does anyone know the ballpark price of hydronic heat with metered zones? How much for materials and how much for labor? Would anyone with good knowledge in this field put in anything other than electric if you were in my shoes?
Didn't mean the comment to be a big negative statement about the landlord's implied 'cheapness' in any way. Just that if potential renters looked at two identical situations, they would tend to favor the gas heat over the electric. Didn't mean to imply that any landlord doing one over the other would be considered overtly 'cheap'. Sorry for any misconstrued comment.
If you are well insulated ... this whole discussion may be less of an issue. I've a friend who installed some electric Cadett heaters in a new duplex ... well insulated, but not over the top. Pay your money, take your choice, I say. You have to live with the results and you know the details of your situation best.
As to whether anyone would put in other than electric in your shoes ... there are presumably LOTS of details about your situation that we are not privy to, to be able to respond to that intelligently. The fact that your last post introduced 'new evidence', it would be difficult for us to say. You have to sift the comments for your particular situation and glean what best works for you.