Replies

1. 
   Piffin | Apr 18, 2005 11:38pm | #1

   I have some good subs who have different opinions than I do. Sometimes, they are right too, so I ask if there is any question. With a new sub, It can be good to spell it out in plain writing, like the time I asked, You will drill that right, opr do I need to have it drilled for you?"

   So he says yes, we can drill through that as part of the job - then his guys show up and take a wrecking bar to it instead.
   They went home with tails tucked between their legs that day. It was not one of my more patient days

    

    

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2. 
   gdavis62 | Apr 18, 2005 11:48pm | #2

   When a GC employs a sub, he typically has used the sub before, and each party, GC and sub, are aware of the "standard practices" that each uses in going about the work.  If a particular job is to be different in scope for the sub, and things need to be understood beyond or separate from the "standard practices," they meet, discuss, exchange drawings, spec sheets, etc.

   An owner-builder, who will have just a one-time relationship with the subcontractor, needs to have all the necessary communication with the subcontractor to ensure both parties are of the same mind about the work scope and its execution.

   The owner-builder and the sub should meet and discuss everything about the scope, including drawings, specs, methods, deviations, and very importantly, who will do what.

   Examples of "who will do what," as it might relate to a concrete foundation builder, might be these:  the concrete guy might always work with builders who lay out the wall lines for him on the footings, to ensure correctness.  He might only work with builders who furnish and install their own anchor bolts at wall pour time, also to ensure correctness.  Your concrete guy might only place #4 bar at 48" centers in walls, even if your code and spec requires #5s at tighter spacing.

   You might think that a framing sub installs housewrap or paper and properly flashes windows and exterior doors.  But his idea of flashing might be different, or nonexistent.

   You might have a price from a trim sub that will want to treat every instance of out-of-whackness in your drywall work as a cause for extra money, and then want to charge you a rate equal to a divorce attorney's.

   The first time I ever went the owner-builder route, I spent over 18 months, after I had developed all my plans and specs and selections, discussing all this stuff with subcontractor prospects, before starting.  The time spent in you getting to know them, what they do, what they won't do, how they charge, how they deliver, how flexible or not they are, how well they schedule and meet commitments, is time well spent.  If you don't do this, you might end up in the shoes of the couple from Michigan who are owner-building right now, and whose trials and tribulations are documented well at this site.  See the UBuildIt thread for details.

3. 
   AdamGreisz | Apr 18, 2005 11:55pm | #3

   The more that is spec'd or spelled out the more easy it will be to compare bids. Also ask the subcontractor's to break out what they are pricing. This allows you to see what they based their prices on. Ask for rates on extras as well. For example on a foundation a contractor might be cheaper but his price is based on two foot walls where the other one might have noticed the site is sloped and requires a four foot average for walls. This is not shown on many building plans. This elevation change might be only on the site plan and not be shown on construction or structural drawings. The you sign up the sub and he hits you with an extra for increased yardage. We spend our days trying to get apple to apple pricing.

    

   Adam Greisz

   Owen Roberts Group

   10634 East Riverside Drive # 100

   Bothell, WA 98011

   Office (425) 483-0234

   Fax (425) 481-0299

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   http://www.owenrobertsgroup.com

4. 
   RW | Apr 19, 2005 12:16am | #4

   In reading above, some very thoughtful responses. I'm simply going to agree that spelling things out is good. First, most subs WANT to know any specifics that are important to you. It keeps them truckin along as well. Nobody wants problems, they just happen.

   I'd like to share just a few examples of standard practice vs. GC expectations that I have run into, some frequently, and some, just once. Nevertheless - -

   Drywall - in this instance, no, screws were not used. Nails were faster. And the sheets were only nailed on the edges, because "glue will hold it" and "that's how we always do it", never mind that the glue didn't hold it, primarily because it never contacted the glue. This was evident around electrical boxes where you could easily fit your finger between the stud and the drywall. I imagine the trimmer had fits.

   Excavation - the window wells were neither tied to the drain tile nor were they filled with gravel, because "nobody said to". Ergo, it rained, water diverted quite nicely into the window wells where it proceeded to figure out that the egress windows made a convenient means of gaining entrance to the basement.

   STO - a couple of houses I've seen had the faux stucco applied so thin that you could see the joints of the polystyrene under it. The "plastering specialists" that installed it advised that they felt one coat was just as good as two or three, so why waste time? There's a lot of houses to do!

   Trim, which is more or less my bag. Customary to me is the trim I ordered is there when I'm told it will be. If I have to make numerous trips back to the yard in the midst of work because someone else couldn't get their details squared away, then yes, I'm charging for my time. I don't charge extra for little devations in the drywall because, well, lets face it. You're not going to get away from that. But now, I absolutely cant trim a window because it's installed so far out that I need to go outside and reset it? Yeah, charge. Crosslegged jambs that I need to fix, I charge, and the drywallers charge to come fix what I dismantled. That's all on the framers. By the same token, if I miss a couple of nails with a nailset, I expect the painter to deal with it. But if there's something that's just blatantly sloppy, I'd expect to see a bill. I usually meet the painter the first day they're there and walk the house looking for anything that doesn't fly with them. I give them my cell. I'd rather them call me about something than the builder. And it's rare that anything they find isn't fixed in 15 minutes.

   I guess my point is don't assume that people are going to have the same standards as you. They don't. And if you don't tell them what your expectations are up front, it's really your bust.

   "If you pick up a starving dog and make him prosperous, he will not bite you. This is the principal difference between a dog and a man." - Mark Twain

1. 
   CapnMac | Apr 20, 2005 07:28pm | #17

   Excavation

   That's been a bone of contention for me--the local foundation guys all swear that any pipe is the plumber's lookout--even if it's buried in their backfill.  This can cause some friction when the GC has to tell them they're eating the backcharge when the plumber puts in drain lines. 

   (Learning to always check that the plumber knows that the drainlines are "his" is a completely separate step <weary grin>)Occupational hazard of my occupation not being around (sorry Bubba)

5. 
   DanH | Apr 19, 2005 01:19am | #5

   As always, specs should be as specific as they have to be, but absolutely no more specific.

   It's an age-old problem. Not just in construction but in every form of industry and contracting business.

   Of course, it's a little late to be worried about the specs after you've accepted the bids.

6. 
   dIrishInMe | Apr 19, 2005 03:09am | #6

   A bit of a tangent but... >>  I assume the drywaller is going to use screws and not nails, << Around here, they nail the edges of the sheets and screw the "field".  That way, the only nails are covered with tape.  I'm happy with that. 

    

   Matt
7. 
   TRice | Apr 19, 2005 08:21pm | #7

   I learned a long time ago to specify only the details about which I cared. And every one of those in enough detail that no one could be confused with or dispute what exactly is required. If you care whether or not the drywall guy glues and screws, call it out explicitly, else don't worry about it. Regardless, you can (and should) always CYA with a blanket performance warranty statement. "All work shall be guaranteed to be free from defects in materials and/or workmanship, for the period of one year from the project closeout, bla, bla bla.." Make sure that any contract (and make sure that no work is done without a written and signed contract) references explicitly that the plans and specifications define the scope of the work.

   "..... but isn't a good subcontractor always going to do the job right?" Yes, most of the time. What if the sub is not all that good? What if the GC pushes them to cut their costs and/or expedite their schedule? IF you go through a GC, make sure that they understand every detail of what you want, make sure that they understand that you are paying them to hold the subs responsible for performing to the details of the contract specifications.

8. 
   djj | Apr 19, 2005 11:20pm | #8

   Lisakk

   The O-B books always make it seem very crucial to make sure everything is spelled out, but isn't a good subcontractor always going to do the job right? 

   I am O/B too. There are a lot of different opinions of of what is 'right'. Another O/B building down the street from our job has a large two story with a walkout. Almost the entire back of the house is giant Anderson windows. His framers set all the windows and didn't use any flashing or caulk at all. They just nailed them over the tyvek. When he called them on it, they said they always hang them that way and installing them the way Anderson suggested would cost him an extra day or two of labor.

   For all my subs, I provided spec sheets in addition to the prints when getting bids. I didn't go crazy with specs but did put in some of the things that I felt were important. For example, I made sure in my framing spec sheet I specified the windows be installed according to Marvin's instructions (my framers weren't as lax as the ones I mentioned above but not too far off). I also spelled out stuff like the sub floor needed to be screwed, not nailed.  

   Having good specs just helps to get you and your sub on the same page when it comes to the scope of work.

   Regards,

   Dennis

    

9. 
   DThompson | Apr 20, 2005 01:29am | #9

   If I priced out your job I wouln't give you a price on your fixtures no matter how well it was specified. I would ask what amount of allowance you wanted for fixtures, add that to the contract amount, keep track and charge you more if they cost more or refund if they cost less. I would send you out to select your own choices, leave them at the store, I would pick them up and pay for them, then you would know the exact cost.

1. 
   gdavis62 | Apr 20, 2005 05:11am | #10

   Why would you deal with any supplier that will not quote and hold a price on a faucet or toilet?

   Even commodities like soybeans and pork bellies can be bought firm, if you work at it.  Aren't you willing to work for your clients?

   Are you a GC or a plumbing contractor?  Can't tell much by your profile.

1. 
   davidmeiland | Apr 20, 2005 05:38am | #11

   Some subs do it like David is describing because they don't want to deal with the list and possible problems with the list, they don't want to deal with trying to get a price on the list and then finding out something changed... etc. etc. They eliminate that step and it costs what it costs.

2. 
   DanH | Apr 20, 2005 04:28pm | #12

   In our area, if you contract for a home (or buy an unfinished spec home) it's pretty much the norm to use the allowance approach for appliances, fixtures, and carpet. It's simply more practical all around.

3. 
   DThompson | Apr 20, 2005 04:37pm | #13

   I wouldn't price them out because of the work involved. I do a number of quotes every year, what might be exciting to the home owner is a boring tedious exercise for me and my suppliers.I use to sit down with the costumer and oh and ah at pictures in catalogues, get lists, prices make up detailed quotes then not get the job. It is too time consuming and with an allowance the results are the same anyway, I do the same with light fixtures.I am a general contractor.

1. 
   DanH | Apr 20, 2005 04:47pm | #14

   Yeah, and keep in mind that future HOs don't want to look in catalogs but would rather visit the store and see stuff first-hand.Plus, if the FHOs pick out the stuff themselves it's a lot harder for them to complain when it turns out to not be quite what they wanted.

2. 
   gdavis62 | Apr 20, 2005 05:11pm | #15

   With a client (my only one) right now, they have resolved all plumbingware, lighting, and appliance choices.  We'll clear the site and start the digging in ten days.

   With all the rich information available on the web today, it is easy for homeowners to do their selections, confirm them by going to a Home Depot Expo Center, and get a pretty good idea of pricing.  I take their selections, all scheduled out, fax them to my subs and suppliers, and plug the resulting numbers into the spreadsheets.

   My experience with these same suppliers and subs has been that they prices quoted are the prices invoiced.  I use purchase orders with suppliers and subcontracts with subs.

   With firm pricing up front, I am able to get the change orders for the allowance adjustments in place and fully executed, so there are no questions afterward.  We qualify that any adjustments that might be required due to unexpected manufacturer price increases, will be handled at invoice time.

   If I was doing this as regularly as you, I would probably use your way.

1. 
   DThompson | Apr 20, 2005 05:37pm | #16

   I admire your thoroughness, I try to delegate more to the costumer who seems to enjoy the shopping sprees. As long as someone else is picking up the tab (for now) the purchasing can be fun.