I, like a lot of you, are a sole proprietor, licensed contractor that does many different things.
How do you all charge for misc things like:
Appreciate the feedback
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Replies
I assume this means you are working T&M. I have found that billing for things like that is a royal pain, and that's one reason why I avoid T&M work. If you work fixed price, then you don't have to spend your time trying to account for every nickel and dime. If I am working T&M and if it's at all justifiable, I simply buy a full package of whatever I need, use what I need and leave the rest for the owner. If it's an expensive item, I charge for it by quantity, as an example I used some expensive flashing material today from a roll I bought previously, and I will charge by the foot for it. More often than not I'll forget at least one thing when billing like that, and it's lost money.
Yeah, I guess T&M. I was wondering if you/you all add to your bill when figuring it up a set fee for nails, screws, rags, wood, etc, etc, or figure up $5 for screws, $5 for caulk, blah, blah, etc.
I worked for a company many years ago that added a $5 misc charge to all bills, no matter what was performed. People complained only when they saw it itemized and paid only when it was lumped in.
There is a cost of doing business, of stocking the truck with everything necessary to do our work.
Is this considered part of my hourly wage?
Do you itemize?
Do you lump a set charge into the bill?
Or do you figure it up as per the job?
There are some very creative people out there, I know, so I'm looking for business ideas that are tried and true.
Oh, and today I missed charging for a tube of caulk; and last week I missed charging for disposal of windows and nails/screws. Damn.
Grunge on. http://grungefm.com
On a bill I list all material per supplier/invoice number and amount. When I get to what I supply from stock, I list items (not quantities or detail) and affix a total amount. Calling it misc material supplied. During the job I'll keep a list (on occasion missing something) and compile it at billing time. Most all my work is cost-plus.A great place for Information, Comraderie, and a sucker punch.
Remodeling Contractor just outside the Glass City.
Quittin' Time
items that I expect to use on every job are built into the hourly rate .extras that run into money are added to the bill written in with as much detail and florish as possible . Ive never had complaints
Auto mechanics have a "shop supplies" or some such charge on repairs to cover sealers grease and etc. Maybe you could just charge something like that to cover partial units and whatnots.
When I write my estimates I just figure these things in to the total. I pretty much know what fasteners and caulk I need to get the job done and out them in.
Its the same as lumber or paint, these are things that are required to get the job done.
As far as travel time and office time I try to figure those into hourly wage.
As Mark, below, stated, auto mechs and shops do charge for these "incidentals". I used to have a 24/7 gas station and repair service. We had printed on the bottom of our invoices "Shop supplies needed to complete your task".
We figured an average for recycling maindated items, misc hardware, etc. and added it to each and every bill. Not one customer ever complained. It was not exhorbitant, but it did cover our basic supplies needed. On some jobs we were ahead, on others we were not, but overall it was fair.
An alternative is to make as complete a list as possible of these items and see how it impacts your bottom line. It could be an eye opener, especially if you are using environmentally sensitive/impacting materials. If a customer were to do the job themselves, they would end up paying more, probably because of quantities, etc.
As a customer, myself, I understand why and consider it charged either separately or all inclusive. I wouldn't expect you to absorb the charges, you are providing the service AND convenience.
Keep us posted, this could become interesting....nickels and dimes (?)...usually $$$.
bum
rooster... are you a RI Red ?
anyways... on T&M we don't usually charge for expendables out of inventory..
but anything we buy for the job gets charged to the job..
so.. the half box of gun nails in the trailer..no charge
but the new box of screws.. whatever is on the invoice..
and .. we try to keep our prices high enough so we really don't worry about the expendables
Mike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
I only do fixed cost work. Small stuff primarily, 1-3 day jobs is the norm.
I hear you on the small stuff, it adds up in a hurry. I do an estimate that gives the overall scope of the work & estimated materials cost and estimated disposal fees if required (both of which include a healthy markup). I also include a statement in the estimate to the effect that "pricing includes my time, travel & procurement of materials for your project".
Even on a real simple job I'll break down the bill something like this;
- Puchase and install color coordinated caulking around perimeter of tub surround.
- Supplied fasteners and installed shelving in garage.
My point to the customer is that everything I do - or provide - no matter how small, has a value. That includes any material I supply (even nails, no matter the source).
- I don't provide an hourly rate or estimated hours/days for completion. I've learned the hard way that customers will try to 'back into' what you make per hour and that just opens a rancid can of worms
- For pricing purposes I don't differentiate between wood/stock I might have in the shop vs. material I have to go out and buy - it has no bearing on the end value to the customer.
In my area disposal of construction debris is real hassle; $110/ton & many local transfer stations only take it on certain days. This has become a nice line item on my invoice, customers are only too happy to make it disappear and write the check. A couple of recent jobs I cleaned-up after plumbers & electricians that abandoned their trash & it almost doubles the value of my job.
-Norm
Tip my hat to you all in business. As a homeowner DIY'er, I have learned to tell the the wife double what I think a project will cost, just because of all the incidental BS parts that I never think of. I would never begrudge your tack on.
I was never able to itemize until I started looking at doctor and lawyer bills where you get charged for everything from cotton balls to postage stamps. Even when you r on the phone so now I feel I can justify it also since I feel that our trade is equally professional or more than(lawyers)
I was a commercial photographer before getting into woodworking, and now ,as then, I have a line item for "expendables". Not that I've ever been questioned, but I would simply reply that it covers" sandpaper,glue,razor blades,chalk, the sharpening of blades,etc."
And without any regard to actual costs I charge $25.00 per job. I imagine, in the long run, it's probably not enough. Like others have said in thier posts, nobody worth doing business with is going to question a line item, that while a bit nebulus, is certainly legitimate.
K.H.
line item - mIsc screws,glue,etc - $25 or whatever
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1. I add a line item on the final bill for 'Miscellaneous hardware: Nails, screws, turps, glue, etc." which is billed at 1% of total job cost, rounded to the nearest $25.
For specialty fasteners, I bill by the box or by the unit, depending on the cost (ex: flooring screws by the box; Hilti anchors by the unit).
2. For caulk, or other tube goods it's by the tube.
3. Garbage hauling is by the hour, plus trailer rental, plus disposal fees. Usually comes out just a bit cheaper than a dumpster. (Or I get a dumpster.)
4. Items sold from shop stock charged same as anything else I sell: my cost plus. Pretty much all the crap I stock has a code and entering that in the computer automatically spits out what I paid when it was purchased. I update the cost when I have to restock.
Any leftover non-returnable materials I offer to leave for the client. If they don't want them, I take them. Certain items I will offer to credit back if I need them: usable partial sheets of ply, for instance, I credit at half the psf for a full sheet.
5. Travel charges: no travel charged except on load-in/load-out days, unless there is a special arrangement made up front because the job is outside my normal 'catchment area'. But time spent running around picking stuff up at lumber yards etc. is billable by the hour. The hourly rate comprises fuel costs (which is why it's going up again, dangit!).
6. Rags etc: see #1.
Dinosaur
How now, Mighty Sauron, that thou art not brought
low by this? For thine evil pales before that which
foolish men call Justice....
I agree with what MarkH said about being equivalent to shop supplies in a garage. I'd also think you'd want to keep from being too specific about what falls under that unless asked. You should have this line also include a little padding for things like tool repairs, blade sharpening, etc that should all be charged to one client.
As a HO I would not balk and certainly expect such a charge provided it was a reasonable number with respect to the total project cost. But you should include it in your estimate up front.
Thanks. I'm learning everyday, business and tech wise.
Dinosaur - I don't think that 1% is actually enough but I like the percenage idea a lot. Maybe 5% up to $500, 4% $500 to $1000, with a sliding scale from there; just a thought.
I like the idea, which i do on the back of my work orders, to keep a running list of items. There is not enough space and I miss things and am always afraid that I will not calculate correctly (although I am good at math). OK, I am paranoid but I don't want to leave dollars on the table, especially spent dollars.
I need a better way to keep a list and keep these lists continually updated, accurate and in the moment.
Mike Smith - LOL, no I am not a RI Red, that's funny. Although I have red hair, it's all about the music. Alice in Chains - Rooster
Old beach bum - we are practically neighbors
Grunge on. http://grungefm.com
Hi RR,
Yeah, we are in Maple Valley (26 years) and about to move to Oysterville.
bum...keep smiling...makes 'em wonder what you're up to !!
You buying one of them nice old Oysterville homes?
Talk about being at the end of the world!!!
Grunge on. http://grungefm.com
I wish.......we found a nice piece of land just North of town. (you can't go much more North). We are retired and are now becoming "trailer trash" in our old age. We just had a new modular delivered and it is being set up now. A matching detached garage/shop/studio will be added to the property this summer. Quiet area half way between the bay and the ocean (5-10 minute walk either way)
bum
...keep smiling...makes 'em wonder what you're up to !!
easy maintenance, new efficient materials,all doors and things wide enough for wheelchairs if needed later (I have heart condition/wife has arthritus), single level and within an hourly workers retirement budget
Edited 4/14/2006 1:08 pm by oldbeachbum
Last large job I did was for an accountant who was very anal about paying and he wanted an itemized list down to the last screw.To keep track I bought a pocket PC with excel installed. At the end of the job I uploaded the list to my PC and printed out a five page list of miscellaneous stuff with all the totals already calculated. I figured that it paid for itself because I didn't have to spend a couple of hours a week going through bills trying to remember what I used where
Edited 4/13/2006 1:30 pm ET by limeyjoiner
and fellow Washingtonian redhead RRooster
a "good" accountant would have recommended you charge at least a 15% profit / overhead charge over & above any material expenses; subcontractor payments; permit fees; misc. part expenses etc...a business survival quotient if you will
Not when it's his house we were working on. At least I got paid, he still owes £30,000 (approx $52,500) to one of the other firms.I did get a good profit out of the materials. I'd be buying them at anywhere between 10-35% trade discount and charge him catalogue price. If he wasn't such a PITA and accepted my usual bill I would have added 10% onto what I paid saving him quite a bit of money
Edited 4/13/2006 2:48 pm ET by limeyjoiner
On any given job i use a number of different fasteners, but rarely an entire box of any one type. On t&m jobs i charge for a box or two of whatever im running low on. not real exact i suppose but it works for me.
I like Dinosaur's system the best - might even use it myself in place of the actual cost method which always seems to leave something out.
I don't like the "shop supplies" category. It's too open ended. This weekend, I had a problem with a blown brake line on the truck. The guy charged me for the metal pipe, the fitting, and then "shop supplies". Only that one bothered me because the only thing he used was one squirt of "brake kleen" after he was done. (Must be the accountant in me. )
I see most of the stuff as belonging in general overhead, like a couple dozen nails for the trim, or staples for the tar paper. On the other hand, if it's T&M, then whatever gets bought for the job gets billed to and charged to the job. yes, we all miss something occasionally, but we make out sometimes too, and it all evens out in the end.
Don K.
EJG Homes Renovations - New Construction - Rentals
Around here, farmers have huge equipment repair bills from implement dealers who charge shop supplies. I think it might be on a percentage basis. It makes sense for the shop,but the customers, even though they pay, resent it. They visulize it as "$50 for some grease rags."Instead of using a vague "supplies" category, I try to name things that were used on the job even though it may be sort of a guess as to the actual cost.
What was the pocket PC you purchased with excel on it? I need a better way to track multiple jobs at once, and that sounds great (different file for each job).
How "fast" or "slow" does this PC respond? Brand? Cost? M/N?
Thanks.
Grunge on. http://grungefm.com
I always have unused screws, caulk, sandpaper, nails, et al from projects and bill them out a second time so I am probably ahead of the game but still miss things and leave money on the table.
I hardly ever itemize or am asked to itemize a bill. If I was or did, I would probably not miss things as much.
My bottom line is to have fun, enjoy what I do, and make some money along the way. I'm not gonna get rich, nor do I want to, and I'm OK with that.
Grunge on. http://grungefm.com
RRoosterIt's a HP iPAQ 1750, bought it off ebay with a GPS navigation pack for £150 (approx $260). The excel program installed doesn't have all the options of the PC version but for keeping a materials list and calculating totals it is more than adequate. It has turned into a very useful tool, it navigates me to the job, the construction calculator that I installed helps me estimate the job, it keeps track of materials/time costs and if I have any problems I can email suppliers, engineer or architect.Although it's not the most up to date you can get it's served me well and it paid for itself in the first six months
Edited 4/14/2006 1:10 pm ET by limeyjoiner