Is there a computer program that a dyi-er can buy that will allow me to draw up my own plans that would “fly” with my county government?
I just enclosing the front porch which is about 100 square feet. Also, I need to draw plans for a stair fromt he upper floor to the lower.
Thanks in advance for any help!
Replies
If you know the code you're subject to and the structural requirements, then pencil and paper will be as good as software for you. Software won't enforce good design conventions, make you meet code, or ensure a suitable structure. If you don't know the code or how to size the joists and beams, then software would just make a bad design look like a pretty bad design.
Do you know enough to sketch out the full design right now on a napkin? If it was pretty, would it satisfy the local officials? If so, paper, a scaled ruler, and a T-square would be your best investment.
Thanks. Well, when we raised our house we had it done on a CAD. So I'm wondering if I do it, does it have to be the "really big" sheets like those done on a CAD printer.
Typically, no. Easy enough to place a call to the building dept and find their requirements. Much easier than buying and learning ANY cad.
I'm having a hard time believing it would be even legal to so strictly require CAD prints only. having a set of standards for legible prints that convey all the necessary information is understandable, but requiring CAD only is simply not enforceable.But I agree, for one single job, the learning curve is a bit steep to use and invest in CAD.And it is just a tool. You still have to tell the pencil where to draw the lines on paper, or you have to tell the PC where to draw the walls and windows and what size this and that to use. It will not think for you.
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
our local health department on perk test will only accept autocad layouts. I found out later that it was to keep the compitition down, keeping the fly by night outfits out of the market.
un-freakin' believable. Can I blow up the autodesk building?
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
Can I blow up the autodesk building?
Only if you let me help. (An' gunner, an' imerc. an' --gonna be a few iffin we're t' take a shine t' sumptin and blow'er up real good, doncha kno?)Occupational hazard of my occupation not being around (sorry Bubba)
Not likely that the local health people specified "Autocad", but more likely CAD in general. There's a few decent CAD programs that can be gotten for a hundred or two hundred bucks, so it won't keep the fly-by-nights down for long.
My father detailed septic designs for thirty years, and 100% of them were hand drawn. He worked for a large, reputable, well established company. Those drawings were a lot better than some of the other hack jobs, drawn on a computer, that were filed with the local towns.
But still - Autodesk holds a virtual lock on the market. The competition just isn't strong enough. Autodesk is to CAD software what Windows is to operating systems. At least Microsoft doesn't hassle you if you are still using Windows 95 (or 3.1!). Autodesk tells you to upgrade (at several thou$and) or else. I use Autocad 2000 in my business, and have 2005 AND 2006 sitting on my shelf waiting for a computer that can actually handle the software requirements. It also won't work with my antique plotter, so there's a double upgrade. Six years in business, and I have to put ten thousand dollars into my workstation or continue to use the stuff I already have.
Autodesk tells you to upgrade (at several thou$and) or else.
You got that right. And if you don't they figure out a way to getcha.
I'm running R14 (a freebie IMERC tossed me when he upgraded, LOL), which will produce only DWG and BAK files. So for a client to view them, he needs VOLOVIEW Express.
Autodesk just removed the free viewer from their download site. So now I have to burn it onto a CD and physically mail the CD to the client or potential client before he can look at the drawings. I can convert them to jpegs or gifs...but the resolution is so poor it's almost not worth it. I'd be just as well off printing them out myself and then scanning them. Or just FedExing the prints in a tube like we did in the old days....
Dinosaur
A day may come when the courage of men fails,when we forsake our friends and break all bonds of fellowship...
But it is not this day.
>I can convert them to jpegs or gifs...but the resolution is so poor it's almost not worth it.Look into a PDF creator. On a Mac it's free and part of the system...when we choose Print, we have an option to print to a PDF. Everyone can see those, and without the jpg/bmp resolution issues. It's been ideal for me and my clients. It's the very same file I send to the printers, too. I know such things exist in Windows.
The conversion program I downloaded for a 30X free trial will convert to TIFF JPEG BMP GIF PNG TGA PCX WMF AND EMF. No PDF, PDG OR PDQ included, LOL....
I have Acrobat Reader (it came with the 'puter), but not the pdf creator program. I think that's about 4 bills here. I also have something in this box that's called ABBYY Fine Reader which, to my knowledge, I have never used or needed to use. Haven't got a clue what it's for....
Dinosaur
A day may come when the courage of men fails,when we forsake our friends and break all bonds of fellowship...
But it is not this day.
http://www.primopdf.com/http://sourceforge.net/projects/pdfcreator/http://www.docudesk.com/deskPDF_PDF_Creator_select_your_version.aspetc.google pdf writer windows for more
Jim, you are a fell sweller!
I've been pestering my firm to pony up for a PDF converter for nearly a year now but I couldn't sell them on the benifits outweighing the cost. (It's tough to convince the penny minders around here that the benifits of a pencil sharpener outweigh the cost)
I downloaded that first link and installed it on every machine in the office. A couple of quick demos and I think I'm up for a promotion now. It works great!
Thanks man - Ah-pree-shate-cha!
If we fail to catch a cosmic fish it may be a trillion years before the opportunity comes again
Check out the Bluebeam demo, too. It's a bit pricey, but can be tuned to use your existing Plot Styles (both kinds), so you can turn out pdf in color or grayscale as needed. It also allows linking attribute tags to Bookmarks, which can hep navigate a pdf plan set.Occupational hazard of my occupation not being around (sorry Bubba)
I didn't even have to create a new plotter in Autocad with the free PrimoPDF program Cloud linked. I loaded it, launched Autocad, opened a drawing, selected print and there it was, already set up and ready to go. All of my existing plot styles worked like a charm with it. Color, grayscale, even the custom plumbing, electrical and HVAC .ctb files I have set up to print different colors as screened, all worked without a hitch.
Two minutes to download, about a minute and a half to intall, and what do ya know, I'm .DWG to .PDF equipped for the price of a complimentary thank-ya!
If we fail to catch a cosmic fish it may be a trillion years before the opportunity comes again
about a minute and a half to intall
Yeah, the bb was like that, too. Ran outside of ACAD, or of Word, or of Corel--but would collect files from any of those.
Was a bit sad when that 30 days expired. (Like the boss here would spend $30, let alone $300 . . . )Occupational hazard of my occupation not being around (sorry Bubba)
I'm sooo glad that worked for ya. pdf's have made my work sooo much easier. I've not yet had a client who can't handle them, and those that say they can't quickly find out they can. And they can ship them off to the printer and take me out of the middle. Had a client in NM swear there were no printers there who'd take the pdf's, except Kinkos at $4/page. So he wanted me to print them here for $2/p and FedEx. I did a quick search on Switchboard, emailed a place, and in a coupla minutes had a local place for him at $.60/p. Saved him a coupla hundred and me a coupla hours. Gotta love the internet!!!
That settles it! You're my new best friend - Having just slightly edged Jim Blodgett for turning me onto the Mason Select Fiber Cement Siding stain. Gotta love this site!
If we fail to catch a cosmic fish it may be a trillion years before the opportunity comes again
just removed the free viewer from their download site
Yeah, that's because "the industry" has not run, stampeed-like, to using the magic format of "dwf" the alleged web-friendly format.
Since they spent $$$$ to create & promote dwf, it must be a good product, right? Oh, e'rybodys usin' the free voloview'r, well, tha's it, its the frrebie tha's killin sales . . .
Oh, and acrobat just added 3d cad viewing to AR 7.0--not that they want to stay in the buisness of cross-platform viewing or anything likke that . . .
I'll admit that I just download a freeware or demo dwg-to-whatever on need. I've never needed one that was actually used more often than it was upgraded.
Paper files still seem to work best. Even with a decent viewer, just too many folks don't "get" the content, so you wind up making hard copy anyway.Occupational hazard of my occupation not being around (sorry Bubba)
I'll admit that I just download a freeware or demo dwg-to-whatever on need.
That's what I did; on Luka's advice I just searched Google for dwg to gif and it came up with something called 'Any DWG to Image Converter' which lets me have 30 sessions of up to 3 drawings per session as a free trial. It works and it's fast as heck. But the resolution is fuzzy, like scanning a newspaper article. And of course the only way a client could mark it up would be with something like 'Paint'.
I think it might just be best to burn a bunch of CD's and mail them out; I could include a 'commercial' at the same time, maybe a copy of my as yet unpublished website....
Dinosaur
A day may come when the courage of men fails,when we forsake our friends and break all bonds of fellowship...
But it is not this day.
dwg to gif
That (and jpeg) are my least favorite "from dwg" conversions (which may just be bitter memory's reflex).
The "viewer for non graphical people" is a bit of a holy grail; rather like "2d drawings for non-spatial people" <g> (and they nod, and say "uh huh" & "I getcha" unti lthe very end of the presentation . . . )
Best "to pdf" I have seen was Bluebeam, which uses plot styles to actually "print" the drawings into PDF. Two downsides, it only works on ACAD2K or better, and is US$400. (But, you can tell it to Bookmark Attribute Tags; so every "room name" tag could have a pdf bookmark; at least a little bit cool.)
Now, if a person is going to spend money on the "problem," Corel Paint & Corel Draw will both take dwg & dxf as input. This can be both good and bad. Good in that the drawing geometry loads relatively seamlessly. Bad, in that you get every line chunk as a Corel element--which can add a lot of complexity to the end result. Best news there, though, is that the cdr file can be exported to jpeg, and almost everybody can, at least, look at those files.Occupational hazard of my occupation not being around (sorry Bubba)
What I am going to do for the nonce anyway is to burn the Voloview Express viewer I've got onto a CD and mail it to the customer when he needs it. (Discontinued Freeware; how can Autodesk complain?) This will give him the capability of doing mark-ups and returning the .rml files to me by e-mail. So it's going to cost $10-15 bucks to FedEx the CD; it's billable....
As to the 2D/3D aspect of things, I am not yet at the 3D stage myself in producing CAD drawings, LOL. That's my next project. Up until about a year or so ago I was still doing all my drawings by hand, including the perspective renderings. I only use ACAD for about 8 or 10 jobs a year; the small stuff gets doodled onto a pad of graph paper over a cup of coffee with the HO and awaaaaaay we go....
Remember, though, that the amazing thing about a dancing bear is not how well he dances but that he dances at all....
Dinosaur
A day may come when the courage of men fails,when we forsake our friends and break all bonds of fellowship...
But it is not this day.
I am not yet at the 3D stage myself in producing CAD drawings, LOL
I'm not sure there's a huge (or as huge as the Arch Desk Top advertising would have it) base for 2d from 3d models.
That means the 3d work is for presentation & marketing. That's probably better, as the DT "objects" don't respond well to changes in structure (just fry an modify a floor slab object from galv. floor trusses to bar joists--or TJI to wood floor trusses in residential; as the cajuns say, "IIEEEeeeeee . . . ")
Doesn't mean that vanilla R14 can't be tweaked into some good stuff: View Image
Occupational hazard of my occupation not being around (sorry Bubba)
Pleeeeeese don't tell me you produced that with R14--or if ya did, don't tell me how long it took ya to figger out how....
(groan!!!)
Dinosaur
A day may come when the courage of men fails,when we forsake our friends and break all bonds of fellowship...
But it is not this day.
you produced that with R14
Yep, that was R14.1, using the Render 1.x engine out-of-the-box.
What was not out of the box ws the materials, and textures, and the like (the set dressing). The background is an image I cobbled together in Photoshop so there'd be some thing to see out the windows. Just like hollywood--there's no glass (the Layer is Frozen) in the windows, so there's no glare.
The sofa is a shape I built up using other 3d shapes. Filleting the edges of a Box Entity gives the rounded edges (I will admit to having detailed more than one set of furniture frames, too). The fabric texture is in the jpeg of that color, and is specified by Layer (the couch is a Block on the SofaFab Layer). The lights are Light Entities, and they can be fickle--those are all Spotlights, with the Sun on outside.
The walls are Extruded PLines, the trim is a PLine extruded along a path. The whole house 3d-ing was about 40 hours over the plan drawing--which includes the time to render 60-something images through the entire house.
Same deal with this one--just have to "do" the fiddly bits.Occupational hazard of my occupation not being around (sorry Bubba)
The whole house 3d-ing was about 40 hours over the plan drawing--
Mighta been faster just to draw it all by hand. I assume you did that for the fun and the challenge of doing it....
I don't have R14.1 AFAIK, just R14. But I don't even know where the 3d functions are yet, LOL. I am slowly working my way through the free ACAD lessons offered by Art whassisname 'The CAD Guy'. I got them on CD and use them to fill in empty hours.
Somehow, I had the idiot's idea that, once the plan and elevation were drawn, the computer did all the rest of the work at the click of a mouse button and presto subito! instant 3D rendering. Duhhh....
Years ago, before ACAD essentially took over pro-level drafting, I wrote an article about how to extract ('project' is the correct technical term) an accurate perspective view from plans and elevations. The math is interesting; you control the 'look' of your perspective by the numerical assumptions you make when setting up. But nobody (and that includes Taunton) ever bought it; it was part of a comprehensive book on renovation and remodeling I was writing that was, well, too comprehensive. No publisher wanted something that was gonna be that big and long for the DIY market. Specialization is what they're after. That way they can sell six or seven books at $18.95 instead of one at $49.95. Makes good business sense, I suppose....
Dinosaur
A day may come when the courage of men fails,when we forsake our friends and break all bonds of fellowship...
But it is not this day.
I wish you could elaborate on your method: "I wrote an article about how to extract ('project' is the correct technical term) an accurate perspective view from plans and elevations."
Back in the days of BASIC programing, I played around with automating the calculations and using lines like: "240 Draw X1, Y1 to X2,Y2" or "VPX = 10" "VPY = 8" 'VPZ = 6" and "120 X1 = SQR (VPX^2 + X^2)". I could set up a primative FOR...NEXT loop to vary the viewpoint to revolve around the object or provide a walk through.
I also used a combination of Excel and ClarisCAD to create perspective images. The basic premise was you defined every corner of your object[s] with three Cartesian co=ordinates. You established a ViewPoint in the 3D form and a line of sight or direction. There are further calulations to convert the distance from your line-of-sight to each corner of your object and you use these to create a picture plane. [You may want to go to extremes and correct for sperical distortions.]
Is this on the right track?
~Peter
Lesson for the day: Install the receptacle before the plumber installs the garbage dispoal in front of it. Exuse: No spark shield.
I'm afraid it was more 'basic' than that LOL....
I'd have to go back and find the manuscript--this was in the pre-computer days, at least pre-computer around here--but it works the same way as projecting a flat map onto a globe or vice-versa. IIRC I proposed you draw parts of your plan and elevation on the same sheet as a sort of baseline, and then used these to project onto the perspective lines. I think the method I worked up posited a 2-point perspective. 3-point perspective is pretty radical for architectural drawings mostly. Setting the height-of-eye and angle of vision enabled you to control the finished look of the 3D drawing....
Ooof; you've caused me to remember how much I've forgotten....
Dinosaur
A day may come when the courage of men fails,when we forsake our friends and break all bonds of fellowship...
But it is not this day.
Oh, BTW--your second drawing didn't show; all I see is an icon
Dinosaur
A day may come when the courage of men fails,when we forsake our friends and break all bonds of fellowship...
But it is not this day.
your second drawing didn't show; all I see is an icon
Yes, I see that now. Looks like this:
Actually, that's two different floor plans out of 10-12 fully modeled-up houses. This one sold, the other has not (yet). There's a couple of not-at-all dial-up friendly animated gif slide shows of the houses, too.Occupational hazard of my occupation not being around (sorry Bubba)
Nice. But why didn'tcha put TOH on the TV instead of a CW band...? :-)><G>
Dinosaur
A day may come when the courage of men fails,when we forsake our friends and break all bonds of fellowship...
But it is not this day.
But why didn'tcha put TOH on the TV instead of a CW band
LoL!
1. Not that big a fan of TOH
2. Do not want to know what hoops their product licensing people might put me through to display their image.
3. That's Jerry Jeff Walker (from the '99 Birthday Bash in Austin), who tends to eschew the CW label no end <g>
4. The "aim" was towards people in Austin & Williamson Counties, who get the Austin Music Channel on their cable, and thus, can see things like the rebroadcast of the '99 birthday bash.Occupational hazard of my occupation not being around (sorry Bubba)
One thing that has worked well for me is running plots through Acrobat Distiller. I have a copy of Acrobat 5.0 that I haven't bothered to upgrade, but it works well when a client doesn't have Autocad. I can send them full-size, full color prints by e-mail, and they can do whatever they want with them.
My "official" drawings are still black and white with a stamped seal and signature.
I don't know Acrobat Distiller. Is that one of Adobe's freeware programs, or is it how they make money...?
Dinosaur
A day may come when the courage of men fails,when we forsake our friends and break all bonds of fellowship...
But it is not this day.
Autodesk politics definitely suck.....and their lock on the educational area is unbreakable, or looks that way....
....to give them their due, though, ACAD 2005 is much improved from the 2000/2000i versions (don't have my 2006 yet). You'll like it when you get there. We have it running on lots of computers that aren't bleeding edge CAD stations, too. No problems.cabinetmaker/college woodworking instructor. Cape Breton, N.S
I hope so, although technically it isn't basic Autocad I'm trying to get running - it's Civil 3D 2006, Survey 2006, and Land Desktop 2006. Autocad is kinda "built in".
I don't have too many complaints, except for the exorbitant cost of the product; and for that price, that they should have a tech support person duct-taped to your mouse pad to answer questions.
Do you run yours on XP or an older operating system?
All the college gear including my laptop is running XP Pro; I do have ACAD 2004 running fine on my ancient 9 year old or something home computer, which has Windows 98.....I do a fair bit of 3d stuff, and it works fine.
Within my college we have a unit that used to be a seperate College of Geographic Sciences (in a different part of the province); they do a lot of GIS and civil/survey type work....some of the guys I know who are instructors there have mentioned that all of the students have laptops with about $100K of software loaded on (mines got probably 50-60K just in the stuff I use regularly, if I had to pay for it individually....and there is plenty I haven't put on. I can put on anything and everything that Autodesk makes for example, if I want to).
One of the GIS type guys told me something interesting; he used to run his own business doing what sounds like similar work to you, using similar software anyway....he had software installed to count keystrokes, and he found that the Autodesk applications took approx. 25% more keystrokes to do the same work as Bentley Microstation (which he loved). Moved into education, and came up against the Autodesk monolith.cabinetmaker/college woodworking instructor. Cape Breton, N.S
When I do smaller jobs like decks, single room additions on piers, or sunrooms, or three season porches, etc... I dig out the 11 X 17 graph paper, a mechanical pencil, and a ruler and get to work.
Do you have a set of plans around for any other project that you can reference to get a feel for what needs to be illustrated and included in your drawings? If you do, I'm sure you can do a reasonably presentable job yourself for a small project like you are proposing.
That ASSumes you are familiar with how to properly size your beams, joists, and layout as well as specifying the appropriate materials for the job.
We all know where assuming gets us, though. ;) As someone much smarter than me already said... computer programs are just tools.... if you don't have some background and a good working knowledge of what you're trying to accomplish, it's not going to help you much.
Thanks so much. I think I'm going to try the graph paper and see what happens. One thing I know is that the government will let you know what they want (demand may be too strong a word).
I do have some old plans around so I'll see, but they had a lot of really structural stuff for the basement.
I doesn't have to resemble the ceiling of Sistene Chapel. They're just looking for appropriate size and species framing members, appropriate flashing details, railings at the proper locations and heights, etc. You'll figure it out.
Just don't walk into the building department like you're a know-it-all. I always get the best results and most help from an unfamiliar building dept when I go in with a very humble manner and "yes ma'am," "no sir", them to death. Let them want to show you how it's supposed to be done. Save the bravado for the lumber!
Thanks. I broke down and call the county. 8 1/2 x 11 is okay."Just don't walk into the building department like you're a know-it-all"Found that doesn't really work anywhere that I know of :)
Found that doesn't really work anywhere that I know of :)
While I agree, you'd be surprised how many times I've been in a building department and seen just that. I think some guys think they'll get better service out of the dept if they start throwing nomenclature that they picked up on TOH around and talking a big game. It's usually the guy on his first project that pulls that crap and ends up getting a bear of a time from the inspector and office staff.
Just figured I'd warn ya. :)
If you plan on drawing plans for the government plan on using 5 times as much paper.
When I saw the title of this thread, I assumed you were wanting to draw plans "for" the government. If that was the case, you need to buy three shovels and get three friends to lean on them and watch you draw. Get a fourth friend to set in his car with the AC running where he can watch the guys watching you. Work between 9am & 11am with a long coffee break in the middle. Lunch is from 11am to 1pm. Break is at 2:30. Quit at 4pm even if you could get finished by 4:05pm.
Hey Mister Sushi, you forgot to cook my fish.
"Am I dead or alive? What's this? Linoleum? I must be in hell." -The Salton Sea
Government is government. Not only do they all stand around, but they make you do all kinds of stupid stuff.I'm just a little homeowner, dyi-er. But there is so much horse-s*** for enclosing a 7 x 13 porch to be living area that it is poposterous. Got get a septic check, they "may" want engineering (What the heck for? I showed them the pictures-I'm moving a non bearing wall.) I wanted to finish the basement. It's unheated storage right now. They want the concrete part of the walls furred (sp?) so it will have a r 21 value like the 2 x 6 walls. BUT, I can have a concrete floor. I don't get it.Most of my neighbors do there stuff w/o permits. But, we're right off the road (new code wouldn't allow someone to build as close as the structure is now) SO, if I did it w/o permits, I'd be more likely to get a "visit" from my local county inspector.
Chicago, in an effort to keep homeowners from being intimidated by the red tape at the building department, opened neighborhood offices and began a "homeowner's assistance" program. If you live in the house and it's a single family, they have staff architects that will help you do your drawings at no additional charge. They're not designers, just there to make the homeowner's ideas fly on paper. I took advantage of this when planning an addition and dormer for my house. A lot of trips back and forth and waiting in line, but it saved me some money.
Well Jims, welcome to the Nuthouse.
I love your title..can I use it for the book I'm going to write??
You've heard of the Fed No-Fly list?..Well, there's also a No-Build list. I'm on it. And wouldn't YOU like to be a Pepper to?!
Listen, the problems you are experiencing are just the tip of the iceburg. you ain't seen nothin' yet. WHat you call 'the government' is actually a Mafia of sorts running their racket in the construction business. They demand that you pay them their 'protection money' in return for your not being fined, brow-beaten, sued and dragged into court, financially destroyed or even jailed! (But it's for your own good, of course).
Here's how you draw plans for the local government I live under: You don't. They've made it illegal. Yes, all plans must be STAMPED BY A LICENSED ENGINEER (licensed by the govenment, that is) before they will even be reviewed. Engineers who only do wind-load calculations on your home-drawn plans charge $1/ s.f. If they draw the plans for you, they give you a discount. SOund like a deal?
That's right, around here, you're wasting your money on a CAD program. The Man wants his cut, and will get it, or you don't get a PERMIT.. Now I know you have friends who built without a permit. They dodged the bullet. Maybe you won't.. Maybe you don't want to risk that. Maybe you do.
One thing you should know though--go into the building Dept. office with an attitude and they've imediately got your number. You have to honey them. Lube them, Jims... K-Y. Or you're on the official sh*t list. You don't want to be there, let me tell you.
PS: I risked it. I fought the law and I won. You can too. (But you may have to bleed a little.)
I spent several years designing conduit systems for telecommunications companies and got a reputation as something of a magician when it came to getting permits from the public works agencies. The secret to my "magic" was that I worked with the responsible engineer and/or inspector from day one to know what they required and then I gave it to them without a lot of whining and complaining.
My personal best was a job with about 30 drawings that covered several blocks in the downtown area. I walked in expecting the usual week or more for review and walked out an hour later with my permit. - lol