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I’m replacing a four-course block wall that sits on a 4’H x 22’L x 12″W poured concrete foundation wall. I’m replacing it with 2×8’s spaced 12″ on center and a double top plate in five separate sections. Each section is to be bolted to the foundation using 5 1/2″ wedge bolts inside every 12″ bay.
My question is how to get this wall to run straight down the length of this foundation wall? Now this foundation wall is fairly straight but it is a little wavy. I know that to line up each section I’ll tack a piece of 2×4 to each end and run a string line end to end and keep each section 1 1/2″ to the line however I am having a hard time finding the best way to get this wall to run straight. Mainly because of irregularities on both sides of the foundation wall prevent me from just measuring in a set distance.
Sorry for the long thread but I’m a perfectionist and always insist on accuracy and whatever it takes to arrive at it.
Replies
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jeff, snap a chalk line? It's only 22'? Am I missing something here? Joe H
*your problem is you got so many bolts that they're throwing your wall off.....also, you've got a LOT of sections..snap the line....measure from the line to the bolt.. transfer the meas. to the shoe. drill your holes..set the wall in place (pressure treated shoe on polyfoam sill sealer).....knock the wall to the line ((sorry, ...'er... i mean carefully adjust the wall to your chalk line))bolt it down...put a ((3/4 ))inch block at each end of the TOP PLATE, run your string line taut,, adjust and brace the wall to the string line....check it again before you nail anything permanent to it....most code requires bolts @ 4 ft. OC.....
*The wall will not be bolted down until it is straight. Since this wall is bearing weight, I removed about four or five ft of block wall at a time, built a section on the ground and put it in. Then another four or five ft etc... mainly to avoid a lot of bracing.So I have all sections in place ready to bolt down once I line them all up. I'm spacing my bolts closer to provide more sheer strength due to the fact that this wall is bearing weight that the block wall was bearing.As you can see, snapping a chalk line would not work here. However even if I did have the 22' of block all removed, given the uneveness and wavy edge of the foundation wall how do you get a straight line snapped on this? You could pull a line 22' and be on a mark at one end and an inch off at the other? You can't rely on measuring in from this wall to a mark because it's not straight.
*Hi Jeff,Can't you run a line ABOVE your work and away from your finished face, about 1 1/2 inches, tie a plumb bob to it and slide it along your wall to measure from?Gabe
*set up a laser and measure off the laser beam..
*Jeff,
View Image © 1999-2000"The first step towards vice is to shroud innocent actions in mystery, and whoever likes to conceal something sooner or later has reason to conceal it." Aristotle
*Jeff,You've got all the answers here. Chalk-line, string-line, laser and plumb bob. Take your pick. But remember, there is no such thing as a perfectly straight wall made from lumber. Don't try to over-reach your medium. Leave a little slop in the hole for the wedge bolts. That will let you bump the bottom plate in or out as you need to. If that bothers you, go back after you've tightened down the bolts and shoot in some ram-sets to keep it in place. Don't forget to surface sand all the faces of your framing material and glue in any loose knots. Also, I think it would be a good idea to pre-drill for all nails, and scribe your layout with a knife so that you will be within a 64th on your stud layout. Pencil marks can get you out about an 1/8" over 22'. Then sweep up all dust and put it in individual sandwich bags. Be sure to squeeze out all the air. Then place that in a brown paper bag and staple it shut. Then mark it "sawdust" with a red magic marker and set in in a cool dry place until your therapist makes you throw it out.Sorry..........I digress.....I think the Texas heat has finally caught up with me.Ed. Williams
*Hire a contractor to do it. Then sue him because it is not perfectly straight. If I ever see anything in the construction business that is perfectly straight I will take a picture and share it with everyone. Also,in dealing with treated lumber you will find that no matter how straight it is today, it won't look the same tomorrow. No stream, just a crooked pond.
*Ed I know you must still be mad about how the Eagles disgraced the Cowboys in Dallas on Sunday but not as bad as I do since I took Dallas on my football card.I'm a machinist by trade so accuracy is built into my work habits. Run a board through a planer and use a set of calipers or a mic to check the size and you'll never use that tape measure again.The wedge bolts (made by Powers Fasteners) require a special size SDS bit with a very tight diameter called a wedge bit.
*Well I say it's time to turn the thread. Yesirree! Jeff got all his answers so let's have a go at it!I bet he gets up extra early just to straighten each blade of grass. I'll bet he sleeps with a level...Hey, the only reason I feel comfortable picking on Jeff is because I was one. Now, I'm a recovering perfectionist. Don't get my knickers in a twist no mo.
*Joe This wall runs the length of the house and it is part of a half basement. As for what is it straight to I'll try to explain, this foundation wall runs about 22'south to north and then jogs about a foot to the right (east) and then about 35 to 40' north againI guess that's pretty vague but I'm trying to keep it straight along this line.
*RichThere is nothing wrong with being a perfectionist hey my bed is messy in the morning just like yours.This is the one trade where accuracy is looked upon as a bothersome evil according to you guys. A trim carpenter, furniture maker, stair builder, machinist etc... couldn't perform a high quality job without it.By the way I do have a beautiful lawn!
*Jeff, what is this thing you are doing? A wall 4 blocks tall? You've got it bolted down like a seawall, what's holding the rest of the joints together? All those bolts are holding a single 2x6 sill for a wall that is less than 3' tall? Why do you need to replace the existing block wall? And why the close tolerance? Nothing against straight, just curious. By the way, I've got a Stabila laser level with a 90* beam splitter that's dandy for lines on a floor. Just rotate the splitter and mark your points. Rough surface not a problem. Joe H
*Jeff,
View Image © 1999-2000"The first step towards vice is to shroud innocent actions in mystery, and whoever likes to conceal something sooner or later has reason to conceal it." Aristotle
*But Jeff, building a block wall does not demand such fine tolerances. Heck, one good way to defeat your own efforts is by holding to tolerances closer than those of the block mfg. Whatever the job, whatever the trade involved you give whatever it takes. Thinking outside of the box you would realize what it takes for fine joinery is not what it takes for fine blocklaying.
*Hey fellas I'm not losing sleep over this, I just want to know how you all would apply your expertise to this particular situation. Beyond saying it doesn't matter just build it.I once knew a guy who told someone at a remodeling job about a wall he was framing into old work that "don't worry about it you'll never see it, we'll be covering it with drywall" His reply "but I know its there"And a friend who hung new drywall had left a bulge on one side of his living room said "no one will really notice it, but every time I walk into that room my eye goes right to it"Small problems that project over longer distances tend to expand into more visible problems.
*Jeff,I'm sorry I gave you a hard time. I respect the fact that you want to do the best job possible. But the machine trade is a bad place to come to carpentry from. You can caliper your lumber or mic it one day and then check it the next day........"SURPRISE!". It's not the same anymore. Why you ask? Moisture levels. They come and go in lumber and I swear they can be affected by the moon just like the tides. Ever feel wierd during a full moon? That's because your body is made up of a lot of water. Wood is the same way. It is always shifting. Wood doesn't "die" as we humans know death. You can cut down a fruitless mullberry tree and stick one of the twigs in the ground and it will grow. I've seen it happen. Just because you fell a tree doesn't mean the wood won't take on or lose moisture. It's always moving. Steel is another subject. You can't compare the two.You're not the first person I've run into who's trying to chase 64th's and under working with lumber. All I can say is that once you respect your medium for what it is, the less frustrating this profession will be. I'm not saying "leave that big hump in the wall, no one will notice" that's hack talk. The best we can do is to try to make the medium work in our favor. If you try to controll it, it will bite you. If you work with it and give it the understanding it deserves, you will be a better carpenter.Good Luck,Ed. Williams
*i Ever feel wierd during a full moon?Whoa, it this your coming out party?i Wood doesn't "die" as we humans know death.Say, you aint wunna dem treehuggers are you?i You can cut down ai fruitless mullberry tree and stick one of the twigs in the ground and it will grow.Attaboy, Ed. Now this is what I want to see. Remember how this all started 'cause Jeff wanted to know about straight? Well done.
*Jeff, you seem to think the advice is to slap it up and press on. Your first post looks like a DIY're searching for the Holy Grail of perfect where it isn't needed. Now it seems you are offended by the advice given, yet you have several possibilities to work with. Joe F's solution with the parallel string lines is as easy & accurate as it gets. Still wondering WHY you are replacing the existing block wall, still thinking way too many bolts are making life difficult and to no apparent purpose. Since you are a machinist would I be correct in guessing they're Allen heads? Joe H
*JoeI'm not offended at all, just surprised that some people feel intent on talking down to someone because that person wants to try to do the job to a degree of his own satisifaction, but needs the advice of a more experienced tradesmen as to the mechanics of it.However I feel as though some people are intimidated because my ruler has more graduations than theirs has.Take it as you may but when your accustomed to working to such close tolerences it kind of becomes habitual. Which does not mean that I'm looking to hold the work to a 1/64 or less. I understand that carpentry work does not require pinpoint accuracy, I knew that before I posted this. There is a lot of great ideas out there and I appreciate all of them, but you guys are looked to for advice not to badger someone with fluff to get on your terms of thinking.Now to answer your question, the wall was in bad shape,some missing blocks along the top row from previous remodels and a couple of old boarded up windows and vertical cracks from a broken sewer line (another story). As far as the spacing on the bolts the specs listed to achieve the sheer strength ratings required it.I also would like to hear more on Joe's parallel string thing I don't quite understand it and Mike's laser line and measure solution and your Stabila laser if you don't mind.
*Jeff-Establish a base line straight and parallel to the face of the wall you are installing and align the wall face to it. Chalk lines, plumb lines, lasers all seem pretty easy to grasp- I read Joe's advice twice and couldn't missunderstand it either time.You may certainly split as many hairs as you wish, makes you happy, have at it.If this wall has so much god awful shear on it your numerous sections might not be such a great idea.You haven't mentioned square or perpendicular...good luckhubcap
*Jeff, Stabila laser type 80 LMX-P order number 02132. This is a builders level with a splitter that pops into the hole the beam comes out of. It splits the beam with a prism & creates a perfect 90* pair. You can also turn the insert in the hole and use it for plumb. It will project onto the floor & travel away as you turn the insert. Mark your points where you can, they will all be in a perfectly straight line. In your case you would need the tripod set somewhere above the level of the footing to be able to use it in that manner. What is creating all the shear load on this wall? Here's a picture of the level, the small thingee is the splitter that fits into it. The clamps are good for whatever. Joe H
*Forgot the picture! Joe H
*We are not looking down at you, you are looking down at us. Out in my shop I have a metal lathe and other very accurate tools. When I am working on them the micrometers come out. But I also have a chain saw, no micrometers then. I have some very nice hand planes for when I build custom furniture and need the wood to fit perfect( although it may move a little bit over the years). If you want a wall that is straight then build it straight. We all want nice looking work. But don't come in thinking we are hacks because we know that walls can't be built with tolerances that are used on metal. If you are asking for advice on the most basic of stringline techniques, then ask away.
*Jeff. . .doug,
View Image © 1999-2000"The first step towards vice is to shroud innocent actions in mystery, and whoever likes to conceal something sooner or later has reason to conceal it." Aristotle
*joe-I said i read it twice and could not not understand it...nice drawing thowhile i got you- i'm gonna set up a web sight- researching now- yours is impressive- can i e-mail you if i run into something i can't understand?if you got to much going on no sweat...
*doug,
View Image © 1999-2000"The first step towards vice is to shroud innocent actions in mystery, and whoever likes to conceal something sooner or later has reason to conceal it." Aristotle
*thanks joe
*Joe --That's a very nice picture with perspective and shading.How do you do that? Do you use that technology to help clients understand what you do?-- J.S.
*Joe --That's a very nice picture with perspective and shading.How do you do that? Do you use that technology to help clients understand what you do?-- J.S.
*JoeThanks a lot for your time, that is an awesome presentation! But upon seeing your work throughout the site I expected nothing less than the high quality replys that you can produce. A question if I can, am I measuring off both ends of the foundation wall to snap this line on the floor? And what if the foundation wall is out of square by say an inch or so won't that carry up to my cripple wall if I measure off this wall at both ends? My foundation wall is 12" wide so I have room to adjust my 2x8 cripple wall.If your a recovering perfectionist then you must of had a relapse, your work is too meticulous for a "normal" person.
*Joe H.Thanks for the picture your time is also well appreciated. However does that a couple of mics I see in that picture mean your also coming out of the closet? Be careful, some of these guys don't like machinist tools, hide all the digital stuff.Does this level project a continious line or a dot?Half the wall is carrying a one story wall and roof rafters bearing on that wall, and the other half is carrying a two story wall with floor joists from the second story and attic, and roof rafters along the eave. The floor joists on the first floor run parallel to the foundation wall in Joe's picture and rest on an identical wall(block) on the gable end.
*WillNo offense but I came in here with a building question seeking advice from more experienced tradesmen. I don't see where you claim I'm talking down, I'm defending myself, which I didn't come here to do, just like I'm doing with you. Never accused anyone of being a hack nor did I ask for tolerances of machinist work.We all have our own style and level of workmanship, don't criticize ones work habits because their not on par with yours, and don't put words in my mouth.You know the old saying "Don't piss down my back and tell me its raining."Anyways I'd be more than happy to hear any advice on stringlines something I need more work on.
*Jeff,
View Image © 1999-2000"The first step towards vice is to shroud innocent actions in mystery, and whoever likes to conceal something sooner or later has reason to conceal it." Aristotle
*John,
View Image © 1999-2000"The first step towards vice is to shroud innocent actions in mystery, and whoever likes to conceal something sooner or later has reason to conceal it." Aristotle
*Don't put words in your mouth? Did I say this?12:34 AM Sep 7This is one trade where accuracy is looked upon as a bothersome evil.In my 37 years of construction work I don't recall hearing that from anyone else.
*Jeff!I'm not looking to badger anybody, let alone piss on them though I hear some people get into that.A length of nylon masson's line pulled from one nail to another as tight as your fingers can stand, is as straight of a line as you can get. Place this line by the one of the several methods listed by the fine fellows above. Measure off the line and move on with life. If you need a new hobby, stamp collecting is a good one. As to the sheer strength thing????? Is this wall below grade?? Holding back dirt??? If so..... Ida built it outta block. Oh yea...it was block! The fact that you've been taking them out suggests that they werent core filled and didn't have any rebar in them. That's a no no for a retaining wall.If it's above ground there shouldn't be much if any sheer force at that point, unless you live in the wind tunnel. Almost all the stress on the wall is in compression! which will tend to keep the wall put, not want to move it.Take some time off from this project and buy a book on Static architectural forces and one on the zen of wood, some thing like "The soul of a tree" by George Nakishima. OH....and stop badgering perfectly good carpenters!Be Well, PBP.S. My house is one huge piece of extruded titanium except for the pooper, which was made from moon rocks by the boys at Lawrence Livermore National Labritory. It works like a charm but is a bit cold first thing in the morning. Happy Hammering.P.P.S. Will, don't be an evil badger.
*WillThat was my reply to the fellas who stepped on my toes first, and attempted to school me on my work habits and quality expectations.I did not start it or ask for it, remember I came in here with a remodeling question not a moral evalution. I stand by my comments.
*A little thicker skin and some restraint sure would make this board smoother. Why all the quick hostility lately on almost all the topics. Shitzkies, lets introduce a little more levity here boys. This is sposed to be fun.Can't be cabin fever, the leaves aren't even off the trees yet. What the f*&k?BC
*Now you have done it. My feelings have been hurt. Time to get a box of tissues and call the guys over. Is it raining or is someone pissing on my head?
*That's nice work, Joe.Jeff, the only other thing I'd question (and I haven't read through the entire thread yet so it may have already been answered) is why are you building it in several sections? By several sections, I'm guessing several 4-5 foot long sections of mud, stud, and cap plates, set on the foundation wall, then nailed off/bolted together. Even if working alone you should be able to raise a wall that size solo.The fewer joints you have in your plates the easier it should be to keep the wall straight. The mudsill can be "encouraged" into line via the bolts, so keep your longst, straightest lumber for the cap plates. Even if your cap plate material does have a slight crown (when nailed in place it would bow the wall) that can be brought into alignment when you set the joists and frame the platform.I get the impression you are building off an existing structure. If so, align the new wall off the existing structure, not off the foundation. If the foundation is correctly aligned off the existing structure everything will come together nicely. If not, the wall's mudsill will be slightly skewed from the foundation, which is okay. The idea is not to carry errors throughout the structure, but correct them and square up the structure as soon as you can.