I am very interested in home building. I have been for a couple of years now. I have been/am working quite extensively on our current house upgrading electrical wiring, framing out the previously unfinished basement, and many other upgrades. I have become tired of my current profession, and have been trying for about a year now to find a “carpenter’s apprentice” job, or something that I can learn/show what I already know to someone, and then have a career in this field. However, no-one that I have talked to is willing to pay more than $8/hr for someone who doesn’t have at least 2-5yrs experience in the field. I guess I’m wondering how you get that 2-5yrs experience when you have a job currently, and you definitely need more than $8/hr to live off of.
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If you really want to work in the trade then you will have make changes and sacrifices to do so. Changing jobs is never easy unless you have the financial support. Take the plunge, plan things out, go back to school and start at the beginning like everyone else. It's your life try to work at what you want to, best of luck.
Have you ever heard of Thomson Delmar Learning - Residential Construction Academy - http://www.residentialacademy.com/? And is it a good place to start? I wasn't sure if actually going back to school for this kind of thing was going to be helpful or not.
One thing I didn't mention is that I realize that I'm going to have to work at it and put my time in. That's the same everywhere. I think my frustration is that the companies in my area seem to be extremely unhelpful with providing information on how to get started, but they are always looking for people for work.
No info in your profile, how old you be? Any particuliar field you looking at;framing,trim etc. In 20years doing this,I can't remember hiring a graduate from carpenter school...maybe in commercial or union. Not saying you shouldn't take the class,though. It pays a couple $$ more around here to hump lumber[framing] but you work with the elements...I'm home now cause its snowing.
I didn't do it....the buck does NOT stop here.
I'm 24, till this spring. I am actually hoping to be an all-around carpenter, from framing to drywall to finish trim. I do like framing a good deal though. I don't mind working with the elements as long as I'm doing something that I enjoy (whether that be moving lumber around or installing trim)
I have been doing what you want to do, all around carpentry, for over 25 years and still enjoy it. Unless you eventually get into the contracting part of the business and take responsibility for the whole job, you will never make the money you would like. If you have initiative and savvy, you can do pretty well for yourself.
Find out who in your area is doing work that you like. Talk to them. Odds are that one of these folks is looking for someone like you. Don't give up if the first few don't hire you, they may not be looking for someone right now or you might not hit it off. Eventually you will find someone who is looking for an energetic youth to pump a little life into their outfit and who is willing to give you a little guidance in return. Don't expect to be paid much in the beginning. Just pay attention and make yourself too valuable to lose. Once you prove yourself, your boss will pay you what you are worth. I don't know exactly what that will be, but what else can you reasonably expect.
Companies that hire carpenters are looking for the best and the way to become that person is hard work and training. If you are lucky a company will "apprentice" you but this is a golden opportunity and you have to deserve it. On the other hand a year at trade school can give you the first year of your apprenticeship. Employees and union halls can see that you have something, an interest, and will take you on.I cannot overstate attitude if you show up on the job with your tools and a good work attitude an employer can put you to work, the training comes with the job. Expect low pay, not always, but it is something you will have to sacrifice for the opportunity. In Canada an apprentice get a raise every six months, which brings them up to a journeyman level, so the low rate of pay doesn't last long. What people don't know is that there is a large drop out rate of those who embarked on a career in construction. From my graduating class of first year apprentices in 72 there are 4 or 5 of us who stuck with it and are still working in the industry. Three of us are in construction, one has an overhead door shop and one teaches shop in school.Keep looking for an opportunity, check out a school in your area, you might receive funding to attend. The correspondence courses are ok but hands on/classroom training is better.
Greetings Seth,
What kind of dollar per hour figure are you looking at to get by on for starting and what part of the country are you located in?
Edited 1/20/2005 3:04 pm ET by rez
I'm in Pennsylvania, in the Harrisburg area, and I was hoping for at least $13-$14/hr which I realize is probably a little high for someone who wouldn't know all of my skills or non-skills right off the start, but one does need to keep the bills paid. :)
Was also wondering what your present profession is that you are tiring from?
So far it sounds like you've got enough tools and experience to perform adequately, seeing you care enough to come to this site to hang out.
Off hand I would advise trying some time and materials bidding on jobs and give an extra effort in order to get your feet wet.
$15 an hour to have someone show up solo and do the job right is a bargain for the homeowner.
That and keep adding to your tool stash.
And keep your nose in here on Breaktime.
be sure to be more to follow heh heh
My current profession is as an Information Systems Support Engineer, which is basically a desk job where I am taking care of computer hardware all day. In college I thought that it would be the greatest to have a desk job, but now I realize that I really do prefer not sitting in a chair 9-10hrs/day.
Try checking out a very high end remodeling company. They have to have respectable carpenters working in those rich folks homes. They are usually willing to get a little "polish" ,even if they have to give up some carpentry skills. (Which they can teach you)
I am doing some t&m work, such as on my parent's house which has some things that need to be desperately fixed up. However, I've been nervous about just doing it for anyone, in this very litigious society that we have.
Here in the DC metro area I'd be willing to pay about 15/hr for you as you've described yourself.That is if you have transportation and some tools.If you have a truck to carry lumber or go to the dump,you would be even more usefull.I would like to hire an english speaker who says he actually likes this stuff and wants to learn;that signals a quick ,enthusiastic learner.
WHOAAA people, the reason no one will pay you more than $8 is because you cost them money!!! Think of it this way , you have no experience (apprentice wage) so they pay you $8/hr. The 3 year Journeyman Carpenter who gets paid $20/hr now has to take the time to teach you the trade, this in turn slows him down which costs the Business Owner time & $$ on the job. The worst part is that a lot of times an apprentice will decide after 6 months that he doesn't want to frame houses in the cold of winter or summer heat and quits!!!! now all that time teaching is wasted. The other scenario is you take the time to train the guy and the competition steals him or he quits and starts his own business!!!
An apprentice program is an investment/risk that does not always pay off, that is why the pay is so low, if you try hard and stick with it, it will pay off in the long run.
I have been an Electrical Contractor in Connecticut for 20 years and have trained and lost many excellent electricians, but I also have sent a lot of guys packing.
Seth,
I don't know what the market is like in the Harrisburg area, but her in DC metro region, you would have no trouble at all finding work at a decent starting wage. You could also expect to move up fairly quickly, if you have the aptitude. Good lead remodeling carpenters are getting $25-$35 an hour here, plus benefits.
Let me know if you want more info. You wouldn't be the 1st Pennsylvanian I've tried to lure down this way!
Mike
I am in somewhat of a position to offer a geographic perspective for you to consider.
I say "somewhat" because 1) my wife is an accountant who specializes in the construction industry and 2) we live in a "hot" area (both literally and figuratively) and 3) although I've experience, age and Cancer have given *me* a double-whammy.
OK, in light of the above, here're some hints...
From what I am given to understand about your geographic area, you need to pack the family sedan and "get out of Dodge". In other words, MOVE.
If you choose to emigrate to our "hot" area -- or the other one a 5-hour drive west -- you'll find that if you can swing a hamster or pull a wire you can find work.
It will help if you can speak one of two Official Languages (Spanish or Spanglish) and have a fake Social Security card. (Afterall, *Your* competition for a job as an electrician just arrived from a mud-hut villiage in Nicaraugua or ... where electricity hasn't even been heard of yet. )
On a more hopeful note, Phoenix and Las Vegas are growing like mad. You *can* fake it 'til you make it here. Construction is rampant -- For Example: a far-distant suburb of PHX known as Queen Creek went from pop. 6,000 at the start of 2004 to over 20,000 already in 2005. Las Vegas, Nevada and Gilbert, Arizona are constantly butting heads for the title of the "Fastest-growing" place in the nation. There's a LOT of work in the SouthWest and you only need to be able to show up to grab some of it -- the quality of construction shows it :-(
So get real with yourself. If you're willing to throw in the towel where you're at and go for broke, you *can* make it (the bucks, that is) in the SW. You just have to get your butt out here. And don't worry, you probably know a heck of a lot more about what you're doing than the wet back working next to you -- the biggest difference between you and him will likely be *motivation*. (Wee-Willie-Wet-Back *IS* motivated! -- and he has the fake SS card _and_ speaks Spanish.)
Can *you* "Dig It"?
Could you stomach learning how to do things totally wrong because that's how your bosses do it in order to shave a buck?
(Yeah, it's a sorry state of affairs. But it's how it is.)
On another practical note, could you handle the environment? Are you fit enough to work from 5am til 3pm and endure temps that often exceed 115º with humidity levels around 10%? (That's a typical summer day. It'll suck the life-giving water right out of you. No kidding.) I love this land -- I've been in the Sonoran Desert for nearly 50 years but Vermont is starting to look interesting.
-- Steve
Enjoy life & do well by it;
http://www.ApacheTrail.com/ww/
This "PS" is the "edit" -- (I really took my time in responding) ... I was a college instructor who taught the type of courses that folks like you took to get your degrees in the profession you're wanting to leave. Sorry so many of you - and me - fell for that dream (but at least a bunch of you kept me employed for a while:-) )
Edited 1/20/2005 5:14 pm ET by Putzger
Hey Seth,
At this point, I think I would be more than willing to switch you jobs, er mmm.... paychecks.
It's winter, and I'm drawing unemployment again.
I have a degree, although it's not in anything computer related. But every single time I'm sitting I think :
"I'm smarter than this. I could/should get a desk job. I should get out now before more and more "immigrant workers" get more and more of the market share. They already have a foothold in residential, what will commercial/industrial work be like 10 or 20 years from now? How will my back, elbows, and knees hold up when I'm 50? Maybe I should just start my own cabinet/interior door/millwork/stair shop now. Oh yeah, it always takes money to make money."
In all honesty, I think you and your family will be so much better off if you stick with your current line of work. If you have a hankering to build stuff with your hands, then get into woodworking. You can always have that on the side. And it will satisfy your "gotta-build-something" addiction. Also, any hiccup in the economy always seems to upset the construction world the quickest and for the longest amount of time. What if there was another terrorist attack? People and businesses seem to go into survival/rationing mode (with their money) when stuff like that happens.
If you get out of your current job, and try "carpentering"/contracting, how easy will it be for you to get back into computer work?
Good luck!
What college did you teach at, Putzger. Did you skip out on the diversity training classes? As far as I know, Putzger, everyone is this country is from immigrant heredity except the native Americans. I'd rather see this site peppered with four letter words than to have to read racial slurs and bigoted remarks like yours. I'm surprised SYSOP hasn't deleted your response. Very bad taste Putzger.Beat it to fit Paint it to match
>> I'm surprised SYSOP hasn't deleted your response.Don't assume the sysop sees everything. There's a very good chance it will be deleted if you complain about it. It's a fairly long message. Don't make the moderator search for the icky parts. Specify exactly what it is you don't like.Mail to: [email protected]
Edited 1/21/2005 1:40 pm ET by Uncle Dunc
About those slurs, I was a little surprised to see them too. I figured the moderator would have caught them and deleted the message.
But on the other hand..... I'm sure that's how a lot of us feel. OK, granted our ancestors came from overseas. But they worked hard for little pay (what seems to us to be little pay nowadays.)
BUT ALSO REMEMBER.... that our ancestors worked and some died for an 8 hour day. They were the only ones around at the time. My great-grandfather was a brick mason on St. Louis's Ead's Bridge when it was first built.
To me, the illegal immigrants in this country are LOW BALLING our work and are eroding what our ancestors fought so hard for.
It is the same as coming into my house at dinner time and stealing food off my table!
They seem to be riding our coat tails. Anyway, not to hijack this thread, really.
To the original poster, it sounds to me that you're smart enough to strike out on your own. Just dabble here and there if you still feel that you must get into the trades.
Me, I'll take an office desk job with a clean smelling bathroom anytime.
Yeah... sometimes telling like it is seems like "bad taste" -- to those who don't have a clue.
Sometimes mis-percieved "bad taste" is the ONLY WAY to rattle the cage of the "holier than thou".
It's really sad, I agree.
But it is the way it is.
Sadly, those who wrote the curriculia for the "diversity" classes at my (former) college failed to check in with the folks who actually live in the neighborhoods and on the streets. They paint a rather rosy picture and we all know it. It was the grant-hungry PhD (Piled higher & Deeper) and EdD level of folks who have written the Diversity programs. They forgot to ask the "Coyotes" for their input. They forgot to ask the displaced ditch-digger (who likely speaks Spanglish!) for his/her input. They (you????) forgot to climb out of your own non-think tank to find out what really is going on out here. The human smuggling by the Coyotes doesn't make anyone happy.
The way I presented it is the way it is.
If you don't like it, that's ok. But you need to know that *You WILL be affected* by the realities that I presented. So if you want to kick me, despise me and hate me, just know that it's not my loss. I will remain filled wih hope that your eyes will allow you to see what your mind must comprehend.
If I have caused you some upset, then I have indeed served a purpose. I have accomplished a purpose to cause thought and create an awareness of simple reality -- as opposed to blue sky theory that promotes the hope that things are rosy all over.
Darn! I sure *do* wish things were rosy all over, but ... they aren't.-- Steve
Enjoy life & do well by it;
http://www.ApacheTrail.com/ww/
"So if you want to kick me, despise me and hate me, just know that it's not my loss". That's the whole point, Steve. Hating people because they were born with with different colored or shaped eyes than you, is the problem. There is no reason for me to hate you because you expressed your prejudice. I feel sorry that you only see things from your selfish perspective. Blaming Mexicans or any other immigrant for the ineffective policies and enforcement of our government isn't logical. I do know a little about immigrants, a couple of summers in college I worked harvesting crops. I worked in the lettuce fields of southern California to the walnut groves in Washington. I worked side by side with people who had nothing. Their children didn't go to school, they had no health care, they did not have any of the basic rights that you and I sometimes take for granted. People are oppressed all over the world. They want to come to the Land of Freedom, in the hope they can make a better life for their families. If I had to sneak in the back door for my children, I would, wouldn't you?My great, great Grandfather came here speaking Gaelic, they called him a "mackerel snapping mick". He found work digging ditches for the sewers in Philadelphia. There may be a similar story in your families past. Despite your education, you may not understand desperation, hunger, fear, genocide, persecution, poverty. Hopefully, you don't have to risk your life just to get a chance to work for meager wages. Surely you can see that it is not the man on the corner, or the despicable "coyote". It is the person paying. The immigrant didn't take the job away from anyone, the boss did. Spreading the language of hate does nothing to change the situation. It has nothing to do with the situation. It's not just bad taste, it's ignorant and un-American.
Beat it to fit / Paint it to match
Well at least some of the responces to the original poster didn't paint a gloomy picture of the construction trade. Not saying your's did. The more people like Seth get turned away from the trades,only makes more room for immigrants. Somebody has to build homes,roads,schools, on & on. My 2 cents.
I didn't do it....the buck does NOT stop here.
Hamster, that's a very (very) eloquently put plea.
Sandly. I fear that you missed the same sorrow that I expressed.
I'll try again with ths paste-n-put:
------
Greetings, John :-)I've not had the opportunity to check in with BreakTime yet. I did choose to take a chance and let you know that I do appreciate your direct note.Again, without knowing (but perhaps imagining?) some of the "stuff" that might be there...I beg that you do not take bluntness as bigotry. Things are the way they are and all of the political correctness bandaids aren't going to change reality.I don't know where you live. I happen to live right smack dab in the route of the illegals. They do indeed infest my very zip code -- often on the first or second night of their "importation"! Do YOU live where it's a rare day that passes and you do not see a TV news story about a 8-person van crammed with 15 persons flipped, crashed and burned on I-10 on the Gila River Indian Reservation -- and that van was filled (no, stuffed!) with illegals being run north by a coyote? Sometimes those wet backs slide off of the roadway and flee across the desert. Sometimes they get trucked off to a hospital and *I* get to help pay the bill! Well, I've really had it with that crap -- those schmucks can afford their smuggler, they can pay their own damned medical bills! (If my feelings bother you, then please send me $97,000.00 so I can pay Mayo Clinic my own bills for Cancer treatment last year!)Do you know what a coyote is >?<Tip: these coyotes aren't furry four-footers.They *are* freakin' slime-bag human smugglers that really should be shot on sight!Do you know what it is like to find a police raid in your neighborhood had "liberated" 50 + people crammed into a single-family residence ?? And the local cops can't do a damned thing about it -- and the INS just releases the buggers ?!!?!?! Can you imagine the damage to the building .. to the plumbing .. to the neighborhood? Even the damage done to those people that were crammed inside ?!?!?I don't know if you can even begin to imagine what it is like to be exposed to The Desert.The route along the border is known as El Camino Diablo. The Devil's Hiway. It's no "hiway" -- it's a rocky dirt path that is absolutley hotter than Hell. It's a LONG LONG WALK without water in an environment that literally sucks the moisture from your very tissues. You do not perspire. Evaporation sees to that. It is not a fun way to die.This is the burning literal truth to those suckers who pay four fortunes to a Coyote to get them across the border so they can steal work from a legal person in Phoenix or Chicago or Detroit or New York -- or go to work for some Presidential Nominee for High Office!Oh, by the way... Thankyou.My Intellect is quite sharp and more than adequate.My patience with those who support and profit from the ILlegals - whether they be the coyotes or the local Morman-owned businesses or the high-and-mighty in Washington DC -- is at an absolute stop.I hope that I've painted a picture of what those "miserable wretches" must go though to get into this country illegally. It's not pretty. Part of me really does feel for them. But that part would feel better if they'd go to Argentina instead! *You'd think* the word would get back and the flow would stop. It doesn't. It won't until the "demand" dries up.I hope I've made things a bit clearer. I'll read the thread additions when I can get back and am able to do just that :-)Thank you much for the note!
Thanks agian, Hampster. Your contribs help :-) REALLY!-- Steve
Enjoy life & do well by it;
http://www.ApacheTrail.com/ww/
I'm sorry you didn't take the time to read my post before resorting to name calling. Perhaps that is your way of coping with complex issues, it does little to support your debate. We have hi-jacked this thread enough. I will continue to support the American Cancer Society and I am pleased when my tax dollars are spent to provide basic human services to those in need. Best Regards,
Hammer, (not hamster)Beat it to fit / Paint it to match
Hey Bean,
I'm typing this in from the Carpenter's training center in Las Vegas. The turbine class starts tomorrow.
I would say that I am a good carpenter. I finished near the top of my apprentice class. Competed in our apprentice contest for our district council (1 of 6 or so).
Got an article published in FWW in Feb of 2002. Shop made tenoning jig, starts on page 73. Taunton flew out Tom Begnal to take pictures and I got paid $150 a page (3 pages total). (Sorry Tom that it was the hottest day of the year.)
I teach classes at a Woodcraft store. And I've filled classes or demos to the max, to where people had to stand.
So yeah, I'd say I'm a good carpenter. I don't really dig nailing plates to studs all day. I'm sure there are folks who frequent Breaktime that could frame (walls) circles around me, or drywall or shingle. Roofs, forming, being in the shop, hanging doors/hardware or doing finish stairs is another story.
But to boil it down... I'd say it comes down to personality. I will always be the proverbial square peg in a round hole. And I think that has a lot to do with who gets laid off on a job and/or who gets called back, or who gets promoted. Maybe age has something to do with it too. Seems like I'm always the youngest guy on the job. And I just turned 33.
I hope I'm not knocking anybody here....but..... I'm not really into hunting or fishing or NASCAR, so maybe that's one strike against me around the St. Louis metro area.
Maybe one day I'll be my own boss and have a stair/door/millwork shop. (Look out Stan! LOL)
Maybe....
This thread has been on my mind...the answer just came to me.
If you really, really want to get into the trades:
smoke a lot of dope
lose your license because of many duis
flunk every subject in middle school
skip high school
Say Yo, Yo, Yo, alot!
beat up your wife, end up in jail and miss your first week of work.
blue
ps Help me out here fellas.....
Just because you can, doesn't mean you should!
Warning! Be cautious when taking any framing advice from me. There are some in here who think I'm a hackmeister...they might be right! Of course, they might be wrong too!
I hate to say it but you described just about everyone in the trades around here. I dont't know how people can hire/ work with/ tolerate stuff like that. On my jobs they'd be outta there.Greg Werner- Werner Building & Remodeling
Huntingdon PA
blue,
I can't believe you would release the building trades super secret formulae for success like that.......... on a public forum no less!!!!
Now EVERYBODY is gonna know
Stephen
Blue,
Thanks for that good laugh!!!!!
Ya forgot to add having a POS car that doesn't run, once ya do get yur license back.
Bowz
What?
Hey Chills ,
Sounds like you got your head screwed on right . Wow Vegas , I'd kill to be in Vegas right now . We just got finished shoveling out of a snow storm that deposited 28" of snow here. Now I'm at work trying to clear the job site of snow , so that we can keep working . We'll get it done . Yea I'm like you I don't hunt or fish . I like working in my shop when I can . That's my hobbie . I hope you got a chance to watch the Patriots game . Grat hearing from you stay in touch.
I'm probably the closest one to you on here. You could probably go union as an apprentice now and get a decent wage. Company from Harrisburg is doing all the framing and hanging in a job up at Penn State (State College PA) and they are hiring right now. I've got the trim package for that job so I have to see those guys constantly. I've subbed off a few homebuilders in your area so I might be able to find you some leads down that way. I'd take yuo on either my trim crew or my framing crew but I'm maxed out on payroll for the winter now. Try the Patriot News, always seems to be carpenter jobs in there.
Whatever you do, find a company that does things right or you'll want out of this business faster than you'll get into it.
If you need more info email me, not sure when I'll have time to reply but it should be before Monday. [email protected]
Just to add something, if you get an Associates Degree in this line of work it doesn't mean squat to most builders, but add a few years experience to that ( I think you need 2 years) and you can get your certificate to teach vo-tech and trade school.
Greg Werner- Werner Building & Remodeling
Huntingdon PA
Edited 1/20/2005 7:53 pm ET by gwerner
Hey seth, when I got out of the army I got a office job. 2 years was all I could take. I went out got a job as a laborer worked more hours made the same money. The bills got paid. Last year I quit a job w/a union shop, running 22 crews of carp, plast, lathers.And am estactic that I made a career change. Although, i do miss working with women, and could live without the smell of a portable toilet on a hot day. If you want to do it for the right reasons it makes it easier to deal with the b.s. that comes with it. I used to do the hiring for my last co. and a good man will always find work. If the starting wage stinks, work more (saturdays). Rez is right on, every time I try someting new I do it part time after my real job. Its easier to lose money when the bills are already paid. Ask some guys if you can start helping on saturdays, someone would love to get a cheap eager weekend helper. Let me know if u make it to minnesota.
go to Triangle Tech ....
get that 2 year associated degree ... takes 15 months ....
then interview well and around $12/hr to start.
I went to the DuBois school at 29 years old. Had my 30th BDay a month after my roommate celebrated his 19th!
I had a background heavy in interior remodeling ... went to learn exterior and structural the "right way" ...
I had spent 8 years in sales and wanted out ... got back to my roots.
Not sure how it would have worked if I didn't already have most of the skills ... all the interior remodeling experience ... most of the tools ... a truck .... and the sales background. It's not like I went in as a novice ... but I hit the ground running when I left. Actually had to put off the idea of being employeed by a midsize company for a coupla years ... as I had too much of my own work.
School was a great decision for me ... U get out of it what U put into it.
Lotsa BS, going back as an "adult" ... was lied to about the financing and the attendance requirements ... fought with the administration once a week like clockwork ... when I was put on "attendance probation" ... again ... for leaving early on Fri and coming in late on Mon ... even though I had the highest grade point average out of both classes ... and .. even though I told the "tour guide" when I first went that I'd be missing everything that wasn't important ... as I was newly married and living 3 hrs away ... she said No Problem, as long as your grades are there....
So .... see how the school will fit into your life. But I still learned a ton ... had mostly great teachers ....
I'd take a 25 year old guy that bothered to go to trade school before I'd take some kid off the street. Shows the willingness to learn.
Jeff
Buck Construction
Artistry in Carpentry
Pgh, PA
Seth, I think you should take some time and think things out on a long term basis. Construction trades can be a tough way to make a living. $20 an hour is only $40,000 gross a year, if you have a full years work. It's a rare residential company that offers any additional benefits. The cost of living today is out of hand and it's not getting cheaper. You can get a handle on your current situation just by listing out the monthly bills. If you give up your job, you will have to add in any of the benefits you are receiving. Health insurance is a big one. What is it going to take just to meet your existing payments? The reality is, you probably can't live on $8/hr.
Even after you have paid your dues, there is no guarantee that there will be work, much less good work. To become a well rounded carpenter, you need to gain hands on experience with a lot of different processes. This can take time, most carpenters aren't considered knowledgeable journeymen until they have 5 yrs under the belt. It's hard for you to imagine at age 24, what you want to be doing at 54. You don't have enough life experience and your youthful optimism blurs your vision.
The better construction jobs are often with commercial companies. The better jobs within those companies are in the office. Engineers, Draftsperson's, estimators, surveyors, purchasing, and others. If you have a bachelors degree, it may not take too much to diversify with some extra courses. A councilor at a technical college may have some ideas or know of local needs. You will have to pursue your personal interests. If you are dead set about being a carpenter, go for it. Just to give you a heads up. It's better to lug shingles because you want to, not because you have to.
Seth ,
You should look into turning to the Union . Look up in your directory United Brotherhood of Carpenters and Joiners . Join the union . You can check out the starting wages for an apprentice . I believe it's more than eight dollars an hour , much more. They have the best training facilities available . Once joining the union all schooling is FREE . You will get 4 years of schooling . You will also get health benifits , a pension , and an annuity fund . If your realy serious this is the way to go .
About the union thing....
Here in the St. Louis metropolitan area there are supposedly between 20 and 25 thousand union carpenters.
About 2 years ago, the head of the St. Louis district council of carpenters put into print that 1,300 hours per year is the average that those carpenters make. Regardless, if they work commercial ($28/hr?) or residential ($15/hr) that is still not a lot of money, at the end of a year.
Yes, everything is better when you work union. Pay, benefits, conditions, training, and safety.
The benefit package is around $10/hour (which is way more than I got working in non-union cabinet shops per hourly wage). That includes health insurance ($4.45/hr), and pension. Southern Illinois guys had an annuity until we merged with St. Louis.
But we got a vacation stamps system that St. Louis had the whole time. They take out a dollar for every hour worked over the course of year. Then in May or June they give you a check for the total amount. It is a way for them to make sure contractors have paid into our benefits. That's how they know what the average number of hours worked is. It is a forced savings plan. So if you want to spend that on a new toy (or tool) or invest it, it's up to you.
In the St. Louis healthcare plan, you have to work at least 250 hours per quarter. Jan, Feb, and March pays for July, Aug, and Sept.
First starting out as an apprentice though, you don't get any benefits paid into for the first 2 years. You might start out at 40 or 50% of journeyman scale. So that saves contractors a lot of money if they have apprentices on the job, at least $400 per week.
There are several nice things about being union too. You don't have to supply anything on the job that has a cord, a hose, or takes batteries. Most of the time what you can carry on your tool belt is good enough.
(I've seen plenty of carpenter ads in the newspaper: Must have own truck, ladders, and tools. Sounds to me like you're a sub then. 1099 or W-2 at the end of the year?)
Safety training is a big plus. With medical and insurance costs going up, safety is a big issue.
And training in general. I'm leaving snowy Illinois for a week to learn how to set up turbines. The training is at the union's center in Las Vegas. All paid on their nickel.
(Learning more technical stuff is one sure way to stay more employable and work all year around.)
So if you're thinking about going union, my advice is find something indoor all year around: metal studs and drywall, drop ceilings, flooring (VCT?), shops, some millwright, finish stairs.
Or you'll need something on the side. Farming, raising exotic pets (sugar gliders), rental properties, what have you.
Good luck!
Chills ,
I allready am in the union . I have been for about 17 years .My positon is Superintendent for a Boston general contractor . When you find a good Union contractor you stay with them . I make good money . When I was a carpenter forman with them my average was 72,000.00 a year .If your a good carpenter you will work year round with lots of overtime.
Mike - Foxboro , Mass .
Seth
I was in the same position. I used to be a Baker, and having worked at it for about 20 years I just got sick and tired of it. So I bit the bullet and made the time sacrifice of working a full nightshift job baking and then working a day job in construction in NYC. Alot of tired days but after having devoleped enough marketable skills for my next employer, I worked for somebody for 2 years and now am selfemployed (and succesfully at that) If you have a passion then remember there are 24 hours in a day, working wierd hours in a Bakery also gave me an edge in how many hours that I would be able to be productive in a day.
Good Luck
Mark
Seth,
It depends on what you'd like to do in the long term..
If you are jusy a grunt to most employers then you get prevailing wages.. if you want to learn more then you will increase in value dramatically.
figure out how to do winding curved stairs in a neat and efficent fashion and you willearn a great living.
Decide you're willing to hump 2x4's and don't want to work too hard then you'll have a rough road ahead..
I think you said it pretty well from everything that I've understood. I really want to learn more than stack those 2x4's over there and then you can start on the 2x6's over there. However, it seems that all the companies in the area that are hiring, are either hiring experienced (2-5yrs) for what I'm looking to do, or are hiring only grunt workers to hump shingles/2x4's/etc for low pay. I have a friend who has been doing what I'd like to do for about 2 years now. Unfortunately, the company he works for isn't hiring right now (and hasn't been since I seriously started looking).
You actually have the perfect career to start a new life. I don't know if you realize how many places need IT professionals that are needed to work after hours. I know our guy here has stopped coming in for the mornings. He does most of his work after hours once we stop messing up our computers. Once you weed through the side string that was started, there is some really good advice in this forum. Take the low wage and work you IT stuff in the evening. It should not take much time for your employer to realize that you do good work. Move to a hot spot. A few hours drive will take you into my neck of the woods (Bucks County, PA) where business is booming!
Although I know that this will probably start another side thread, but make a careful decision about going Union. There are many advantages to being in the Union, but (in my area at least) they tend to have a bad name in the residential department. Just south of me one of the unions made the news (possibly national) for all but ending a show being filmed here. Big tourism dollars was almost flushed down the drain for no good reason. A lot of people are not happy. (I forget which union, but most people lump them all together anyway). There are also a lot of good employers who will treat you very well without the Union label.
Your ultimate goal would be to go out on your own. Keep that in mind when you make these first steps. You may work for someone else for the next 20 years, but you need to start planning for it now.
Brian
Hey Bean,
Thanks, for your comments. I just wrapped up my turbine class. I'll be flying back to St. Louis tomorrow.
Again about the union thing..... yep, it is a shame that the general population lumps all the unions together. Maybe that is a stigma that started with Jimmy Hoffa and the Teamsters. Probably even earlier.
Just like any other organization, unions have their good points and their bad points. The United Brotherhood of Carpenters and Joiners of America (UBCJA) is really trying to market themselves. The UBC realizes that it must produce a superior product.
When I started my apprenticeship, I had to sign an agreement. If I ever decided to go out on my own and be non-union, I would have to pay them back $2,000 for each 2 week period that I was in school. That would be a total of $16,000 now.
That would/could be a bad point for some (me?) because it boxes you in. But the union has to protect itself too. They can't give all this training away and have you turn into the competition.
In the St. Louis area, we are striving towards a goal of 24 million man hours for 2005.
I just know that my life is better for being in the union.
If I was a non-union carpenter, I'd have to supply my own truck, tools, cords, and ladders. I'd probably have to pay for my own health insurance. That is if I was getting paid enough per hour to be able to afford it in the first place. Then I'd have to try to save for my retirement.
What would happen if I got hurt on the job? Would I be forced to declare bankruptcy because the medical bills would be rolling in long before any workman's comp issue got resolved, if ever?
About the POS construction workers you folks commented on.... it takes all kinds and they show up in different kinds of work. Unfortunately, construction seems to have a disproportionate number of them.
I'm gonna try to tie two concepts together here, bear with me. In economics, supply and demand are usually plotted as two intersecting lines on a graph. Where those two meet is how the price of a product is determined. (This is very basic and oversimplified, I know.)
Now, psychologists have determined that very highly successful people, CEO's, world leaders, etc. are good at delaying gratification. They have also determined that some people have impulse control issues. How they are ranked in terms of success or lack thereof, I don't know. I like to think of those two as lines plotted on a graph much like supply and demand. Where delayed gratification and impulse control intersect determines your success in life.
In construction, I see a lot of people who smoke. There are also a lot of people who drink, gamble, etc. Then there are those with multiple divorces and kids. To me, that sounds like they have impulse control/delaying gratification issues. (Isn't it odd that the people who can least afford to smoke, do? Why is that?)
Some of those ruffian types might be in construction because they are working for cash only. They may be divorced and their X's are after them for child support. So why get a regular W-2 job and have your wages garnished? Work for cash, and the X and kids will be none the wiser.
There is an underlying cause. I can't quite put my finger on it, but they are all (inter)connected.
"There are will problems and then there are skill problems."
"Ten percent of the people will give you 90 % of your troubles."
Chills
It sounds like you have done some serious research .Very smart . I wish you all the best in your quest to become a good carpenter . Your right there is good and bad in everything . One must weigh ones options and decide from there . I think you have done that . Now grab oppertunity and run with it . When you come upon a company that treats you good , stay with them . Become what we call a company man . You could work nonstop for a company like that for 30 years . Life is what you make it . Good luck . Don't be a stranger , I would like to hear from you again . Let me know what's going on in your quest .
Mike - Foxboro . Mass. - GO PATRIOTS