How to make a builder want your project?
I live outside of Boston, Massachusetts. I have plans for a new garage/studio space to be attached to the house. The architect took a long time to draw detailed plans. The structural engineer took a long time to draw detailed structurals.
I asked the structural engineer which builders to bid, as he would be representing the architect who is from out of state. He gave me three names and I met with each builder.
Explaining that I wasn’t in a rush, I just wanted a nice project and I hoped they would make a fair profit, I gave each builder a month to put together a bid. After six weeks, one builder presented his bid, which came out to about $200/square foot. Four months later, the other two builders are still “working on” the bids. I think it would be bad form to award the job with just one bid.
Was I a fool to tell a builder I wasn’t in a rush?
What can I do to get a bid out of either of the two builders?
Is it better to be a pest or to be cool and just know that the nice builder will get to me when he gets it.
JB
Replies
squeak!
.
.
And get the grease.
In all honesty, the GC's showed poor form.....but give 'em a kick and let 'em know you need the numbers in a week......because you'll be awarding the contract in 8 days.
IMO, no bid after four months is a polite way of telling you they're not interested, without having to explain why or deal with your feelings of personal rejection. Bugging them might get a response, but do you really want a reluctant bidder working on your studio? Asking them why they are so reluctant might be direct enough to startle an honest answer out of them.
Maybe the thing to do at this point would be to widen your search. Ask everybody you know if they can recommend a builder. See if any names show up multiple times.
Go back to the structural engineer and tell him two of his three recommended contractors are "no shows". Have him call them and tell then they are loosing credibility because of poor buisness practices. If they are uninterested or unable to give you a bid in a timely manner, then they will in al likelyhood treat your job the same.
I personaly won't even bid a job four to six months down the road unless I have ####clause that lets me adjust prices at the time construction begans. How many times have you seen the cost of material and labor go down in recent years? You need to give at least a tentative start date to everyone bidding any job. Scheduling becomes a cost factor when a contractor can not use his normal subs and suppliers. Believe it or not, this is not a retail buisness. At $200/sq.ft. some of items going into your job are not stock. They have to be ordered in advance and arrive when the contractor needs them. Mess with this scedule and you ,the owner, must pay the premium for faster delivery or schedule deays.
By the way the contractor that did bid the job needs to revisit it, unless he told you the quote was good for longer than six months.
Dave
I have to jump in here too. I wanted a timberframe house with a few wrinkles. I understand that time is money so I called all of the listed timberframers in my state and set up an appointment. I came prepared with plans, drawings, and an actual scale model one inch equals one foot. (kinda big and bulky but I wanted everything plainly visable and no question as to what was wanted)
I came with a friendly smile and ready to actually sign should someone make me an offer I could live with... Nope not looking for low price, looking for quality of work and a reasonable time frame.
Not a single person would give me a ballpark estimate of either when they could start or what the neighborhood would be for price. Only one person asked to keep a set of blueprints. His rough estimate a month later must have come from Mars because the way I figured it he wanted $150. oo sq.ft. to frame when I supplied the material! To this date (over three years later) no one has ever called me back and two of the nine people I contacted missed the appointments they set up and never bothered to call and cancel or reschedule. I just assumed that they weren't coming when an hour or more had gone by. I always brought a book with me because only two were on time (and they were both already in their office).
Well late last summer I started it my self. I'm having a ball! I'm glad I'm doing it myself. Somethings are more work than I thought, ( a few are easier) some things cost a little more, A couple were much cheaper) but So far I'm about a third done and my costs so far are less than $35,000. Now this is a delux double timberframe with black walnut timbers on the outside and white oak on the inside, with 6 inch SIPs in between! (10 inch on the roof) I average about 20 hours a week and I'm a little behind my mental schedule, since no-one has ever done this how long should I have scheduled things for and what does it matter?
My point? well partially to brag, ( I'm pretty happy in case you didn't notice) and second to question what I did wrong? Why couldn't I get anyone interested? too far from the normal bang a few sticks together? Or assemble some kit? I deal with contractors every day and while lots of them expressed interest in doing such a job, none had any experiance (except those timberframers I mentioned) and didn't have a clue as to what costs would be Many offered time and material deals but no one wanted to limit the upper end.
Good for you Frenchy.
I am a one man operation, and only part time at that. I "cherry pick" what jobs I want from those that call me. Those that are to big or I am unfamiliar with I politely turn down. I seldom refer another contractor for the very reason and problems that you and this thread have stated.
Before the advent of pagers and cell phones, communications between a contractor and client was sometime just a matter of "phone tag." Nowdays there is no excuse. E-mail,call waiting, call forwarding and all the other techno-gizmos means all the lame excuses of the past can really come back and haunt a guy. I am sure that there are a new bunch of excuses that are more technical sounding, but it all sounds the same to the client. They all say "you and your job aren't very important to me." I can't stand that type of buisness practice myself, so I darn sure won't treat someone else that way. That is why I don't refer clients to anyone anymore. I don't want to get painted with the same brush as some "no show."
By the same token I don't like being told "no hurry, just whenever you can get around to it" by a client. What ussually follows is what may have happened here. If I did the bid in a timely manner and the client doesn't award a contract in a timely manner, it drops off my radar scope. It then pops back up when I am in the middle of or just starting a new project. At that point I am going to be called a jerk because his project is now his most important priority. It is a lose, lose situation for everyone.
Piffen says "excelence is its own reward." So is honesty by everyone involved in a building project.
By the way, you have a right to be proud of what you are doing. Sounds like a helluva project. Good luck.
Dave
"By the same token I don't like being told "no hurry, just whenever you can get around to it" by a client."
I learned that long ago. In any kind of service I tried to get a date. Now, I won't demand it tomorrow unless it is truely an emergency.
But I won't say "I am not in a hurry, any time in the next couple of weeks". Then it get ignored.
Instead I might ask what there schedule is and based on that ask for it to be done by a specific date.
I've found that customers who sign a contract get put on the list.
I can give people a rough idea of when I can start their project,but things change based on delays on other jobs and weather conditions.But the guy who signs and gives me a check has a much better shot at me being there then the guy who asks me if I can be there in a month and then waits three weeks to decide and then can't understand why I can't be there next week.Vince Carbone
Look at it from the customers view, we don't know your busines, we don't know what's fair or if we're asking the impossible.
We try to be considerate because we need your help. Is a project like that a million dollar one or a ten thousand dollar one? That's why we ask for ballpark numbers or sq.ft. numbers. we need some basis to see if what we would like is affordable. We don't want to waste your time or ask for the moon.
There are three levels of dealing here. First, budget/affordability level. Not by any means a contract thus a quick glance should yield something. second a way to compare your offerings against anothers offerings. You charge out your guys at a hundred dollars an hour but you have an award wining extremely productive and experianced crew with full insurance and complete documentation of all aspects of the job. Your crew averages 15 years per man in the trade and 10 years working for you.
Finally negotiations. that's where the details are spelled out and knobs decided on etc. Payment terms settled and a contract signed with the needed deposit.
Those of you who refuse to deal on that basis are asking for an unreasonable level of trust. Here let me hold your wallet kinda thing. If we have a long trem relationship, I'll be glad to handshake and let you do what you do. Untill then start returning calls and start giving out bids.
I sell construction equipment. When you come to me to buy it, you want bids and quotes and you shop my prices against the competion. you try to compare new vs used and rent vs purchase. That's all reasonable and I provide it. Why should you be differant?
Someone talked about how much hassle certain customers are. Well you are right. some are a major pain in the butt! That's part of life. I regret selling to some and am proud of others. Seldom is there any relationship between the commision I earned and the hassle involved. Yet if I refused to sell any time I had a chance my income would dip below poverty level.
Customer supplied materials....on a big, unknown, never done before project from a person not directly in the material supplies business?
I'm sure they realized that this was a project best left to a DIY person, with much more uncompensated wasted downtime. If someone was that desperate for work, that they would take a job with that kind of odds stacked against them, and that kind of financial uncertainty, would you really WANT them as your contractor?
But it is still no excuse for just saying they have no interest in your job. Business is business, when you can pick the fruit from the ground, why would you climb a tall ladder, lean out on a weak branch with only one foot on the top rung for the same if not less money?
If you want to just bang together the pieces and build the same building over and over, then go ahead and build your townhouse units and apartment buildings Or tract houses.
I didn't ask the unusual. I asked timber framers who do that sort of thing all of the time. the differance seems to be that most timber framers either carve the beams or erect the beams from someone else. The very few exceptions want to engineer it all themselves.
I didn't start to do this my self, I wanted to be part of it sure but I didn't know if I could carve oak timbers and have it come out nice. So far I'm happy with the contractor and his crew.
Amen Frenchy!
You posted the best and biggest reasons for DIY.
Now, if the go'vt would just let me write my own prescriptions and I could afford an MRI setup, we'd be set!
Junkhound,
You already do. next time you grab a bottle of aspirian for a headache or Nyquill for a cold, you are doing exactly what a doctor should. Prescribing medicine. DIY!
There are all levels of skill out there when it comes to DIY, some of us actually know what we're doing! (I won't claim that for myself untill the jobs done and the home owner is satisfied)
Well, the great thing is that instead of building it to the minimums, trying to control costs to maximise profits I can build to the highest standards to ensure quality.
I can easily afford to buy the best quality tools and materials since profit isn't an issue. (besides I don't have to let someone else play with them, I get to use them and take care of them)
I agree with you. I got sick of other people screwing up jobs at my house and/or taking off with my money after doing a bad job or not completeing a job so I decided to do everything myself. It takes more time but b/c it is my own house I put more into it than any GC would b/c he just wants to get paid. Overall my work exceeds that done by most people who have worked on my house and I have no formal training. Good, honest GC's are very hard to find these days. The measure twice cut once style carpenter no longer exists. Now days it is all about how much $ and how fast can we get it done. This is a sad statement on society as a whole.
Overall my work exceeds that done by most people who have worked on my house and I have no formal training. Good, honest GC's are very hard to find these days. The measure twice cut once style carpenter no longer exists. Now days it is all about how much $ and how fast can we get it done. This is a sad statement on society
.............Buddy, you havn't looked hard enough...........
Let me know what you do for a living so I can generalize and slam you and your type...........
Mark,
Unfortunately the lack of quality work is not limited to your profession. It can be seen in all walks of life: doctors, lawyers, teachers, cops, politicians, etc. Our society is one of instant gratification and therefore everyone wants it done yesterday. Quality has been sacrificed for quanity. Political correctness and liberal hiring practices have led to this sad state of affairs. If you truly are an old style carpenter (measure twice, cut once) then I applaud and respect your commitment to excellence. You are part of a dying breed.
By the way I am a teacher, so go ahead and start slamming because our educational system is in poor shape!
Edited 5/9/2002 12:22:29 PM ET by COACHN77
I work with good tradespeople, carpenters, even plumbers everyday.We are all in a huge hurry. We are spending our clients money. They need value.Most of us only want to do solid , high quality work. Situational quality is an economic reality in the building trades as it is in every segment of our culture.
Please don't take this personally, I'm doing a survey on Residential Construction ,but, what do you do for a living?
Thanks, BB
As I mentioned earlier, I only do custom small jobs that I can handle mostly by myself. I also work a full time job and have a family to consider. I explain this to anyone asking me to look at a job. My focus is not making a lot of money, but doing a high quality job at a reasonable price. Many times my reasonable price has been beaten by the guys that do this full time with a two, three, or four man crew. I try to tell a potential customer all of this in our intial meeting or converstion. I am not being competative in cost or service. I guess I am selling myself and my love of the trade. Many times I end up with one of those great little jobs, even though I am higher and slower than another bid.
I know what the pressure of running a buisness can do to the decision making process. I also worked for an architect doing custom additions at one time. He went bankrupt for a lot of reasons, not the least of which was his inability to not even bid a job because it was to small, to cut up, to low of a budget, to far away, or any number of other factors. In short, he let the pressure of running a buisness cloud good judgment. He ran himself into the ground trying to keep his family, his customers, his crews, and his financial parteners in the money. Maybe if he hadn't gotten trapped durring a downturn in the building market, he would have grown through that stage of development. He did outstanding design work,but was a lousey buisnessman.
I am not making excusses for bad judgment by any builder or remodler, but often what appears to be bad buisness to the client is actually the right decision for the buisness owner. Its is how that decision is presented to the client that makes all the difference in the world. In your line of work it is called salesmanship. A lot of good builders are not good salesman and a lot of good tradesmen are not good buisness men. Unfortunately everone gets labeled the same because of bad experiences like you have had. Its is kind of like saying "all salesmen are jerks"..., we all know that is not true, but we say it anyway :)
By the way, the architect was a fellow I grew up with and he also built models, if that really means anything.
Dave
JB - The conventional wisdom here (central NJ) is that small jobs aren't worth bidding (that's my advice to clients). In our area, I'd be able to get a quality small builder to negotiate a contract for a small addition (<$100K or so) but no way could I get 3 bids. Projects above $350K or so start interesting bidders in this environment - think about it, would you rather spend $2K of you own time bidding a $50,000 job or $5K of your own time bidding a $300,000 job?
Drawings speak volumes to builders about what is expected. Overly-detailed or fussy/unusual drawings on a small project may be a turn off, indicating that expectations are unusually high. Just thinking out loud ... Say, $200/SF isn't bad (depending ... ) - maybe you should take it!
T. Jeffery Clarke
Edited 5/7/2002 9:01:08 AM ET by Jeff Clarke
"How to make a builder want your project?"
When I first meet with a potential customer I do a lot of listening, then reflect over the following few hours about how I feel about the project and customer in general. I usually wake up the next morning with a pretty good sense of whether I want to invest any more time in that relationship, and I assume the other person does too. For any job requiring me to work closely with someone, I have to be comfortable with that person, or I'm going to be white knuckling it all the way through. And life's just too short for many days like that.
Keep looking. It may take interviewing many builders before you find a good fit, just like it takes meeting hundreds of people to find a friend. The best results start with the best relationships, at least that's been my experience.
I think you made a good point, Jeff.
Every job I've been involved in where a scale model was made ended up being a nightmare. Can't exactly explain why - I'm no shrink. But it definitely turns me off.
Redneck Extraordinaire
Boss,
You're making me nervous about an upcoming project that has such a scale model involved. Don't know what to think now.
I think its a hard game figuring out the middle ground between being too anal and specifiying every piece and winging it with materials as the job progresses. I generally get a bit scared when I see alot of specified things and tend to add flounce factor to the pricing usually a few more hours to each task.
I think some people come across as the anal type and they may be just fine as long as you do it right.
I'm working for a guy that I totally blew off in a similar way 6 months ago. He complained heavily about every other contractor that had done work for him. Well, I didn't give him a bid for four months then he called me again. I was nervous about having to redo every stick I put up so gave him an increased bid which he took. We have been working with him for about a month now and no worries to date. Seems like I was worried over nothing.
By the way, I like the little jobs. We have done a couple bathrooms and small basement remodels and its nice to get in and out with everyone happy. I find the big ones are normally a management hassle and change order trail. I try everything to avoid change orders but they seem to come up anyway.
Mike Butler
Berkeley Craftsmen Builders.
Berkeley CA
Mike - you said "I try everything to avoid change orders...".
I hear lots of builders say that. Do you mind my asking why you try to avoid them? Seems like they're a good way to get paid for all those little changes customers usually ask for. They get what they want, and you get paid for your effort. Who gets hurt there?
I've learne dto stay pretty fluid in my plasma and keep the flexiblity to react to change requests to satisfy the customers.
But it costs plenty of money to incorporate changes, anyway you look at it and the customer has to pay for it or we go broke. That makes the bottom line on a final bill steep and always leaves that customer feeling put upon. I'd rather he than me but too much budget overrun does not make for good references and relationships. Changes also slow the momentum on a job and too many can get to morale for the crew. Timeline and scheduling the next job suffer when the first one hilds yoiu hostage with change after change after change...
So a well planned project that avoids changes is to everybodies benefit.
Excellence is its own reward!
It helps me to recognize when I'm selling a service, and when I'm selling a product. When I'm selling a service, I try to focus on doing exactly what that customer wants done, irregardless of what job is scheduled next. I'd rather have them thinking "yeah, we made some changes, and they cost us, but we got what we wanted and he was real easy to work with...a good listener" than "we didn't really feel comfortable asking for what we wanted, he had other jobs lined up and was in a hurry to get ours done".
I think it's a tough balancing act...maybe more like juggling.
Jim Blodgett,
I try to avoid change orders by doing a very thorough bid, which usually catches many unforseen costs, such as having a built in allowance on jobs where I think there may be rot.
The problem with them is that they take time to do right. Time that I would rather spend getting the job done. I do them and hardly ever have problems with getting them paid off; I guess I want out of myself as a quality builder / estimator to plan for the worst up front and come in at the end at cost.
Things do happen and its nice to get paid for them. I charge for my time at a job and do change order quite regularly. Change happens.
Mike Butler
Berkeley Craftsmen Builders
Berkeley, CA
Boss Hog,
Wow, I spent hundreds of hours making that model. Blue prints can sometimes have errors and sometimes show perspectives poorly. I've been involved in Contruction for over a decade, it's almost a normal occurance to have a conferance with the archectec to clarify drawings. a scale model should answer all those questions.
Now I find out that may be why no-one wanted to bid!
It's hard to say if you scared off the framers because you made the model. Timber framing is a weird business. As you said, most "framers" get their material from big mills that do the cutting. They just put them together. Some big outfits do both. Some of their plans get changed slightly or "customized" but in many ways, they are building the same house over and again. What you wanted was to find a framer that could both cut and raise your own design. It seemed obvious to you, that you had worked out a good plan that they could use. Maybe they saw something wrong and were uncomfortable telling you about it. Or maybe they all are booked up. Who knows? But I don't think you showing up with a model is a bad thing. Maybe you scared them about supplying them the material--Who's going to be responsible for checking, and open joints when the wood dries? You yourself many posts ago were being pretty anal about checking, perhaps you sent the wrong signals about how picky you were?
Anyway, I'm glad you're getting the job done and enjoying it. How are you protecting the wood if you can only work 20 hours a week? Or are you still forming your timbers?
Good luck,
MD
Hi Mad dog,
Well we learn don't we? I was so carefull to slowly dry my timbers before they went up to minimize checking, twisting and all the other sins that wood does. . I learned.. Wood checks as many of you were willing to point out. It doesn't seem to matter how much care goes into it, once wood makes up it's mind it's gonna check, there is nothing you can do, it wins! (or checks). In retrospect I should have put the timbers up as soon as they were cut, it makes for much easier work! MUCH MUCH easier work! (do you know how hard it is to get a joint to fit properly when the wood has assumed the consistancy of rock and decided to dance a little on you with a few half gainers thrown it? I'm still pleased with my joints for a non-Amish, guy who never got better than a "C" in wood shop.
At first I was very anal about covering timbers and etc. but everytime I thought they were well protected and that this time the wind won't get to the tarps, I learned just how clever the wind could be while I slept. Now I let them see the sun one last time before covering them with the roof and plan on spending a little while giving everything a final sanding. ( Future hint, if you're gonna leave wood exposed for a little while it really doesn't do any good to sand down to 220 grit! 100 is plenty good enough!)
I form the timbers as I go, during the coldest spells I would drag timbers into the shop (where in the old days I parked cars) and planed,sanded, and cut mortices and tenions etc. That got me a little ahead and work pace really picked up with all those timbers ready to go, once spring started. (by the way did you know that heat can make a 20 foot long timber move by over an inch and a half?) .
Anyway the west wing is just about finished and the great room is started, so I'm around the corner, literally! The most complex joints are done and now it should just basically be a repeat of the same basic bent untill the great room is finished.
In retrospec I think you were probably right, most framers were busy with standard frame kits and I represented a challenge that to me was exciting and to them was full of unknowns. I need to remember this is a hobby to me and a job to them. What I saw as fun could have been frustrating to them.
The funny part is while I continue to sell equipment every day to building contractors, and just about everyone expresses a desire to "do" a timberframe, none are actually willing to do it.
The real funny part is timberframing represents a much more lucrative cliental base with attending profit structures. Now I realise that this is just me, but if I was getting a little tired of banging together the same basic stick frame with just a few variations, I'd go try a timberframe too or log home or something! Heck after a while doesn't it kinda get to be like factory work with mud? Realize that I speak to framers mostly, and not to the actual contractor/builder.
So Frenchy -
If you're battling to keep the wood from checking............And it checks anyway. (Or "wins")
Is that considered "checkmate" ???
Redneck Extraordinaire
But I get the final cut.....
Boss Hog,
If a picture is worth a thousand words shouldn't a model be evan better? If I dump a set of blue prints on your table it will take you a while to understand what's going on. you'll flip from perspective to perspective and probably take out your scale ruler and do some measurements etc.
A model tells at a glance what's going on.
Boss am I right in assuming that most builders have a mental per square foot cost in their head and that they use that and some multiplier to come up with their final bid? I mean if it's a cookie cutter house on a large flat parcel of land it's X and if it's on a hill it's X+.3 plus if the house is a million miles away and everything needs to be hauled in it's X+ .5 If it's all chopped up with 6 differant roof pitches and 9 differant bump outs it's X times two or three, etc.
Do you get actual bids from your subs for every thing that you do?. One furnace, duct work, six registers, one thermostat. etc. etc.
Or do you know that the furnace bid for a 1500 sq.ft. house will cost whatever and just add it togetherwith your experiance on costs for wiring , plumbing etc. and then factor in an allowance for upgrades?
Do you have a lumber take off done on everything you want to build or if it's the third one like it in the last 3 months you just figure X?
Frankly I'd worry if my contractor couldn't do that, I'd wonder if he has enough experiance to quickly an efficently build my home. I realize that in the conversation stage things aren't cast in stone so why shouldn't we see if things fit finacially before there is much real time invested. I may have a budget of $100,000.00 for what will cost $150.000.00
If you're looking for a used car do you ever call the ads that don't list a price? when you sell something souldn't the price be displayed , so that you can decide if you can afford it before you invest the time in looking it over?
I know some who think they can talk someone into something and occasionally It's done (usually without good results). To me price isn't a personal thing, if there is room for negotiation then it was overpriced to begin with, I'm now insulted.
Sure some like to horsetrade. I have to once in a while because of the way certain customers are. But in the end I have to get my price plus a fair profit. The rest was just conversation. I've got years of experiance doing this, I can tell in a few minutes what's going on and adjust accordingly.
am I right in assuming that most builders have a mental per square foot cost in their head and that they use that and some multiplier to come up with their final bid?
No builder that I know does that. They might have a rough idea, but every job is different. The only thing I've seen builders guess at is labor. But estimating labor is probably as much art as science anyway.
Do you get actual bids from your subs for every thing that you do?
I'm not a builder, but again - Most that I know do get bids from subs on everything. God knows I do tons of bids for contractors on stuff that's never built.
No, I don't agree that a model takes all the ambiguity out of a project. Who's to say that the model is 100% correct, or can answer every question? Did your model have the exact room dimensions, as well as wall sections, etc? The only thing your model would do is give you an idea what the thing would look like. (Might help with colors) How would a model help with structural details?
I agree thast there's a time to ballpark stuff. But I try to avoid it unless I think it's necessary. Can't tell you how many times I've had people tell me they were just looking for a ballpark, but then have a cow when the actual price wasn't what they expected.
I don't see that buying a used car from an ad in the paper has any parallel with estimating a house.
Edited 5/8/2002 3:23:17 PM ET by Boss Hog
Frenchy, Frenchy, Frenchy, for as long as you've been hanging around this site, you sure haven't been paying much attention to what pros are saying. You want to draw an analogy between buying a car and building a house? A timber frame house at that? Do you actually think the most applicable variables between "x" and "x + .3" is if the house is on a hill? Quit talking so much and start listening, you'll learn far more.
OK I'm A pro. I've been selling for longer than most of you have been working. I've learned to work smart. I don't work for free! When you come to me to buy my equipment, I ask you what your budget is. It doesn't make sense to give a you a quote on new when your budget puts you in used. I find that out up front!
Perhaps that's too simple and direct but it works. I'm up front with costs and expect anyone doing business with me to be able to do the same. I can quote you monthly costs, maintinance numbers and interst rates on hundreds of pieces of equipment. change ten variables like downpayment, skip payments,buy down the interest rate and add ten options and I'll have an answer within minutes. Not to the penny accurate but within ten bucks. ...Ballpark.
Some of the equipment that I sell is way more variable then the average home. So I'm familar with variables.
It's OK if you do it your way. I'm wrong if you never waste a quote and spend time figuring out what things cost only to lose the deal because someone outsold you. If every quote winds up profitable then I should listen. If you've wasted time on bids that never happened or happened with someone else, perhaps you should listen to me.
My model was exact to the inch scale of where every timber went, what size it was, and it's length and angles etc. A timber that in actual life was 18 feet long was infact 18 inches long. a 6inch by 6inch timber was a half of an inch by a half of an inch. It was made from the slab wood that became the timbers for my house. Each and every timber was the correct scale length and size. (that's why it took so long to make). the only exception was that instead of mortice and tenion joints etc. I just glued things together.
But it wasn't wasted time. It helped me to clarify ideas and concepts. look at space and window placements etc.
I did a smaller one (1/4 inch =one foot) where I covered the timbers with panels etc. but the accuracy isn't there, while it is done to scale and the dimensions transfer etc., it's too small to be of practical use. (but very handy to bring to the city council and show your ideas to people who have no ability to read blueprints)
I've got a computer program that tells me how may nails should be used to hold this panel together and that piece of plywood etc. then it tells me the estimated time to achieve that etc. If you spent the time you should be able to figure exact costs.....
Except, what a useless bit of information. where are the factors? I mean weather, work force, familiarity, job site conditions etc. That's where your experiance comes in. As for the Asphole who asks for a ballpark, changes the program and then is upset when the numbers don't match. (which seems to be the biggest fear on this board) well isn't it better to know that before you sign a deal then after?
Since you didn't understand my analige perhaps I should make it simpler.
Have you ever gone on a vacation and never asked the cost of anything? Or did you try to get some idea before hand if you could afford to stay there or not? That's all someone is asking. about what will this cost before I ask you to do a detail bid. You seem to say you won't let me know untill you spend hours getting the exact number. then since you're so busy and doing quotes takes so long, you only do it if you get warm fuzzy from the customers.
Edited 5/10/2002 12:17:57 AM ET by frenchy
What I do now is give a high price, one that I know I can get under in almost any circumstance. This works for our company now because we have a well established reputation and no shortage of work. It took over twenty years to be in this position. Someone starting out does not have the luxury of scaring away the faint of heart and thus should not be using ballpark estimates. Good numbers just take a little more time and thought. If the customer is not willing to spend the time, how serious could they be? And a contractor not willing to do likewise will be out of business soon.
"If the customer is not willing to spend the time, how serious could they be?"
Frenchy is making a very good point about customers and a lot of you guys are being either very dense or very short sighted. Here is a customer telling you something and instead of listening, like every successful business does, you shoot the messenger.
A customer can be very serious but also very ignorant about the simplest costs involved in homebuilding and remodeling; and so a very serious customer may need some guidance about just how much what they want to do will cost. I can't count the times that someone here at Breaktime has criticized the dumb ass customer for wanting "X" at price "Y" when EVERYONE KNOWS that it really costs "Z". Well guess what? Not everyone knows. And the serious customers, the ones that are ready to spend their hard earned money, generally want to know up front if they can afford their dreams. What is so hard to understand?
I am just such an ignoramus! A couple of weeks ago I asked a question in the business section about this exact thing and got zero replies. I wanted to know how much I need to save (ballpark) to do a certain project. Not a bid, not an estimate, just let me know when I am getting somewhat realistic - are we talking $500, $5000, $50000? Nobody answered, not even to ask for better details. So, in 3-5 years when I THINK that I've saved enough, I will start meeting with contractors to find out that I was totally wrong and can't afford to do it. Sigh.
Edited 5/10/2002 11:47:29 AM ET by aimless
" I am just such an ignoramus! A couple of weeks ago I asked a question in the business section"
Try again - maybe it's the way you worded it or maybe some of us missed it before it scrolled to the bottom of the list...
Excellence is its own reward!
"And the serious customers, the ones that are ready to spend their hard earned money, generally want to know up front if they can afford their dreams. What is so hard to understand?"
What is hard to understand is what the customer actually wants. I am not saying this just to be flip. It is exactly the reason why people hire architects and is the most difficult thing about an architect's job. Translating a dream into a set of drawings (much less a completed house) is a rarely achieved task. And yet that is what many customers expect from us. No wonder they are so often disappointed.
Every contractor here has given ballpark estimates and most of us have been burned by them. We will still use ballpark numbers for the reason that you give, to qualify the owner for the prospective project. That doesn't mean that these figures are any less dangerous to our business. We just have to learn to be careful with them.
The more imformation that the customer gives us and the greater the chance that we will actually get the job, the more accurate our numbers will be. That said, there will still be a wide range. Anyone who has participated in the bidding process knows this. And this is after every bidder has carefully studied a complete set of plans. Most bids that we participate in have a high bid that is 175% of the low bid and there is no guarantee that the work will be any better. How accurate will a ballpark price be? Less than that. You may find this an appalling situation for a prospective customer, but it is reality. Keep in mind that as GC's we deal with this reality every day from exactly the same perspective as our customers, purchasing materials and services from tradesmen. It is not always easy but the most satisfactory relationships are those based on trust. Once that trust is established, ballpark estimates are really quite reliable because both parties know that they won't be held to them.
A high price certainly will cover everything and as long as you present it that way your bases are covered. Except the first hipshooting artist who comes in under it will get the contract.
On the other hand you don't want to price yourself too low and be burned by that. Those who wear belt and suspenders will do a careful bid covering each and every nail and board plus all the subs. That takes time, Time which there is no warrantee of payment for.
Now there is a way that you can convey your knowledge without it coming back at you. It's called salesmanship. learn it and you will be better paid do it your way and when the downturn comes you'll be the one looking to just make your payments....
No doubt, I could learn quite a bit about salesmanship, though we seem to have no shortage of buyers. We've been through down cycles before and managed to keep working through them all. We probably don't need (or want) to sell more of our services but we sometimes could do with a better price. I especially like your advice of treating every situation as a negotiating opportunity, where you exact a concession or price for anything that you give. I know that I am too often a soft touch. Perhaps there is a benefit down the road for generosity. I know that it comes in handy when I'm calling in favors.
I'd love to take credit for that idea, just something I learned at one of the many training sessions I've gone to.
The nature of sales is that if we conceed anything, that's never the end of concessions. In fact just the opposite, they feel that if you cave in on this then you are willing to lower your price on that and the bottom is found when you walk away because you can't do it and make a profit.
Before things get to that stage, use the, "If I can will you?......."
Almost everything that doesn't have a price tag on it is negotiated, some don't know how or don't want to seem unreasonable. The art of the deal is when both parties feel they got value. A good salesman ensures that.
The astonishing thing is that low price isn't the be all that so many think. If it were we'd all be driving Yugo's Some look for the most expensive some want to be sold on the value of something. Some seek an education and some treate everything as a negoiation and are disappointed and lose respect for those who don't comand a premium for their services. The skill of salesmanship is finding out the true motivations of the customers and providing it.
An amature is one who's first (and often only reaction) is to lower the price. The comment your price is too high does not mean that you need to lower your price. What it says is that he is not convinced that this is your lowest price, or that he doesn't understand the value that he will recieve, or that he needs assurance that this is a wize choice. Or that this is the best choice.
None of those means he really wants you to lower your price. The solution is to offer to give him what he says that he wants but take away something he likes.
For example, I can build it for 10% less if you allow me to use some young guys without the experiance that my normal crew has.. I can build it for $4,000 less if you let me use it as fill when the weather closes out work on other jobs. That sort of thing.
It indicates a willingness to work to achieve common goals. It also allows the client to select priorities and understand their costs.
The truly wonderful part of this is that you are no longer competeing for the job. He's selected you and all you are doing is arranging the details to his satisfaction. It leads to a natural relaxed close. You are consulting rather than competeing.
Very critical at this time, do not leave without a signed contract. You've handled his objections and now is the time for a close. Get a commitment and then to relax him give him a cancellation clause. (Few will go to this point and then back out) If they do, that should be enough warning of who you are dealing with.
Ballparks are for ball players, if they ask for a ballpark without giving me some serious time to consider everything, I'll give them one, with the stipulation that the actual price could be +/_ 300%.
The problem with ballparks is...that is the only price they'll ever remember..period.
Scale models are fine as long as everyone gets a stamped copy!
On An Island By The SEA
We always get our subs in to look at a job. Every job is very different. Per square foot is a mythic thing that only fine homebuilding would have the guts to give as often as once a month on a project. There are always weird factors.
Last year we had a $40,000 kitchen remodel that the client just had to have early pricing for, before our subs got in there and looked around. Our Electrician came in at 7,000 because of major work needing to be done, 3,000 higher than we estimated for. This was a very very similar kitchen to two that we had done before. We got four, count em four lectures from that client about how we should have known that this was going to happen, etc., etc,
Ballparks are for baseball and football. Do good estimates and never give a price at that first meeting. They remember nothing else.
Mike Butler
Berkeley Craftsmen Builders
Berkeley, CA
"The problem with ballparks is...that is the only price they'll ever remember..period."
Amen. How many times do we have to get burned by this before we stop giving out ballpark estimates? We may be none too sharp but even bull headed builders can learn that.
Kieth,
Only a fool would take a ballpark number as real. Several decades ago I sold cars. I used to sit at the dealership on sunday and get most of my customers. (Minnesota has Blue laws which closed dealerships on sundays) The reason? People wanted new cars but didn't want to be embaressed asking about a car they couldn't afford. So they'd check out the sticker price when they thought no-one was around. I sat in my car and would ballpark monthly payments and trade-in values. once they found something affordable they wanted to do business right away. I "sold" a lot of cars on a hand shake and the majority of them wound up buying the next week from me.
Believe me, the first question is money, not how accurite your estimate is.
I'd love to do it your way.....ask them what their budget is, then see if we are talking new or used. But when they want a ballpark, they NEVER want to say what the budget really is. EVERYONE has that little deam that they are going to find the contractor who can "magically" make their dreams reality for 25% of what they actually are willing to spend.......and the amish used to do it around here, then they too got smart and quit working for less than nothing.
Did you really tell anyone of the contractors up front, that you are going to supply the material, and you had x amount of dollars to get the job done, or did you figure it was his job to tell you what he would charge....secretly looking for that "golden deal"?
If you want the ultimate, you've got to be willing to pay the ultimate price.
If you want the ultimate, you've got to be willing to pay the ultimate price.
I've got to say it again Keith. A customer may dream about the ultimate but very few of us know if that ultimate is possible, at ANY price. And, YOU may know what the ultimate price is but very few of us know. And why should we? We don't build houses for a living, that's why we approach professionals like yourself, to give us some realistic direction to move in. And if professional builders can't do that who can?
Your attitude sounds way too much like someone saying, "Just trust me!" And, when things go wrong that person is the first one to say, "You dumb ####, why didn't you do your homework?"
There is a major confusion between the pro's who do this all the time and us homeowners who have dreams. Somehow we're not communicating. so please teach us the majic words, handshake whatever it takes so we can find out things without you wasting your time.
We've tried the ballpark number, we've tried rough estimate, we've tried to get a simple idea of what things should cost, where do you hide the price tag?
since there is a major gap in communications I suspect the first person who manages to jump that gap will make a lot of money. There are people who don't do anything without a long term plan. especially not a major purchase. Heck maybe you think you can make more money from ignorant customers.....
Classic example of how things work.
A couple of weeks ago i came on line and asked what a basic fireplace should cost. (I had no idea) Someone quickly came back and answered about $7000 for what I wanted. That was well inside of my mental budget so I called a contractor and explained what I wanted. OOPs! It was way more than a basic fireplace but still inside my mental budget number. The upshot is we agreed to have him do the work when we get to that point. He's not ready now but will have time this fall when I'll be ready.
I was afraid we were talking about three times the money. At which point I'd have to do without. ballpark numbers do help.
Frenchy, I jumped into this discussion when you complained that you only got 1 ballpark price of $150/ft and claimed it was from Mars. Don't you need 2 at least to qualify a ballpark? You got one, and it wasn't in your ballpark. The rest blew you off on other issues for other reasons. If you would have gone into those meetings saying I have x amount of dollars to spend on THIS frame, you would have gotten the answers you wanted, just as you ask the same question of YOUR customers to qualify them as dreamers and shoppers, or someone you could honestly sell something to.
I can frame for $4.00 a ft. on a level lot, in my county. Throw in variables and the price goes up. If the materials are delayed, and I lose a day here and there.... I lose money and get pissed. Throw in a customer supplied timber frame and many unknowns, travel time and the price could reach $150/ft.
Tell me EXACTLY what you wanted the frame erectors to do, and the time frame to do it in. How many decks, panels, roof panels, cranes, windows, stairs etc. they had to deal with, so I can better understand the situation..........and also clear up the level 5 tornado BS too. What are the winds and pressure drops for a level 5.
Keith, around here the going rate is around $7.00 a sq.ft. for stick built, level lot not a lot of fancy roofs or bump outs.
Mind you, I'm not new to construction, I sell to construction, For the last 10 1/2 years that's how I made my living. I've worn a tool belt and earned money banging a hammer. (several decades ago). I visit between 5 to 20 new homesites a day and have a lot of framers as friends and customers.
In my mind $150 per sq. ft. is a go away unless you are really rich and stupid number.
Now I asked timberframers knowing that stick builders won't have the background. One of the abilities you need to make a good living at my profession is the ability to listen well. If someone had said that I'd need this kinda budget or this many man hours at this kinda cost that would have been enough. They would have been doing it. I heard a lot about how busy they were, (never about when they could do anything), I mean I started looking in feb. of 1999 if they had said we are booked for two years that would have still been ahead of when I started!
In addition the timber is/ was sitting here on my lot waiting. the only delay would have been your walking time to the end of the pile. In addition there is on site a new rough terrain telescopic forklift with 44 ft. of stick. That was all brought up in the first meeting.
I've only been able to work about 20 hours a week and since sept. I've gotten about one third of it done. I'm 53, very overweight, and in poor shape. the guy who shows up once in a while to help is 28 and evan as a drama major he can outlift me by 3 or 4 times.
My point is that a full time crew should have been able to breeze through this. I'm having a ball doing it, so I'm glad no-one would give me a bid. (now that's hind sight, at the time I was pissed as hell at those who treated my project so poorly as to dismiss it.) In fact my doing it was kinda a I'll-show-them. but things went so well.. (Well, except for a little basement coating goo in my hair) that now I'm greatfull. If only everyone else understood how easy and fun it is to actually build your own house.....
As for telling someone that I had X to spend, there are two things wrong with that approach. First if I was grossly over, would someone say "oh, I can do it for much less?"... and second if I was grossly under they would have thought me a fool and told me it can't be done. To do me justise I would have had to guess the exact price they were thinking of.
Just today I had to explain to a customer that he couldn't get what he wanted for the price he was willing to pay. I must have explained it correctly because he wound up buying from me at nearly twice his original budget. That happens all of the time. People get these magazines with low-buck prices in them and assume that's the market price for good equipment. It's my job to explain to them why and what. If I do a good enough job then one of two things happen, they either modify their sights or they go shopping further. Whichever, I'm polite and try to be as helpfull as possible. often once they learn the trueth, they come back because I was nice and fair with them to start with. (not always but then if I sold everybody, it would become boring.......)
As for a level 5 tornado well according to the weather bureau, it's the highest force tornado. I don't think they think it's BS....
Edited 5/11/2002 12:16:26 AM ET by frenchy
Catagory 5, winds in the range of 265-318 MPH, cosmetic damage only. Someone "sold" you this "designed to withstand" set of prints, or you did your own calculations?
Finger of God tornado......do you smoke crack currently, or tripped on acid in your younger days perhaps? I'm just trying to get a feel for who would actually believe they can defy the laws of physics, nature, and figure they have it whipped.
My lumber salesman .......oh never mind.......
Kieth,
Explain to me how you figured that it couldn't be done? based on your experiance OK you may be right for a nailed together stick built house.
But tell me, how many double timberframes have you seen fail? If you want an example of the strength of this home go walk under any wooden railroad bridge.
Top plates are 12 inches thick white oak, vertical timbers are 6x6 or 6x12 with a couple of 12x12's thrown in plus diagional braces. four foot centers or less. the connections are 1/2 inch stainless steel 12 inch long hardened lag bolts doubled and on occasion tripled up. In additon each joint is morticed and tenioned or half lapped etc.
Outside of that is R-controls panels 6 1/2 inch thick which according to their calculations make them 40% stronger than a properly built stick frame of the same size. Outside of that are 4"x8" black walnut timbers using 12 inch lag bolts connecting back into the white oak timbers clamping the panels together. The panels are themselves screwed and nailed together plus screwed into the white oak timbers. between the black walnut timbers are brick in-fills tabbed back onto the panels and seperated from the black walnut with copper.
the entry doors are 4 inch thick black walnut (2) 3'x8' on six ballbearing hinges per door.
Remember the airplane that helped to defeat the Germans in the Battle of Britton was made with wood and it went a little faster than 318 miles per hour.
Up until 2 weeks ago tonight I would have figured you were right, then we had a Catagory 2 come within 2000 ft. of my own home. Since then, by what I have seen, there is nothing I could build that could tame that. 18" high tension line poles(100') sheared off at ground level. Chevy Avalanch, 2000' from where it was parked, smashed to pieces, but not a scratch on the roof. I may be a stick frame builder, but unless your frame can stop a 5000 # flying truck, then you are only fooling yourself.
This discussion has been fun. Salesman always have the most enthusiasm. Hmmm, there is never any bad events...only opportunities.
Kieth,
I have the advantage of topography so it's highly unlikely that a tornado would hit here. The strongest in recorded history in this zip code has been a level 1. Yet I'll stand by my statement.
I actually kinda tested it when I was building it. I won't go into the why's and details (too embaressing) But I ran into the building not once or twice but probably 25/30 times. with a 24,000 pound 110 horsepower 4 wheel drive contruction forklift. full throttle with as much speed as I could get up. Booooom!!!!!! Boooommmm! Booommm!!!etc. my buddy told me that nothing moved in the building. he should know he was on the second floor. I replaced the timber I mushed up and you can't see or tell what happened.
To be fair I never did the calculations of flying object impacts, I suspect that there might possibly be some damage if hit by say a semi truck at 200 miles per hour, I don't really have the interest in doing the calculations.
I'll give you that then.
Fire is still a much bigger risk.
"The problem with ballparks is...that is the only price they'll ever remember..period."
I think that statement's right on. Had that happen to me and a couple of contractors I deal with just last year. Seems a couple had a print drawn, then asked some bozo how much he thought it would cost to build. Mind you, this guy wasn't even a contractor - Just someone they knew. And he told them it would cost about $150,000 to build.
Trouble was, he wasn't even close. This was a tricked out 3,000 square foot house - 9' ceilings, full brick, walkout basement, huge pella windows, big kitchen, etc. And the cheapest bid came back at $225,000.
Now these people were pissed. They figured the contractors were planning on making that "extra" $75,000 off of them. So they started dragging their prints around to every lumberyard and contractor within 40 miles trying to get a "reasonable" quote.
What they managed to do in the process was waste a lot of people's time, (including mine) piss a lot of people off, and just generally burn a lot of bridges.
All because of a ballpark estimate.
The world's full of apathy, but I don't care
I couldn't agree more. Once an "estimate" comes out of your mouth, it usually becomes a "bid". I try to be very careful when talking numbers, even talking with others pro's.
Last week a local homebuilder stopped me in the lumber yard and asked me what my "square foot price" was to trim a new house. I said every job's different and I don't have a "square foot price", did he have a set of plans and specs I could look at? All he had was a floor plan, and every time I tried to get details out of him he kept saying "you know, normal stuff, nothing fancy". I guess if that's all you did you could come up with some type of standard, but I'll be darned if I've ever been comfortable with that, even on something as straight forward as trimming a new house.
I don't see any way to accurately bid a remodel unless you have all sorts of disclaimers about "unforseen work". I think time and materials is a fair approach, for the builder and the customer both. Of course, then you have to explain why your hourly rate is what it is, but if you're uncomfortable discussing that, maybe you should give that some thought, too.
Jim,
you missed an oppertunity with your answer. Now perhaps you don't like this guy, or don't want work etc. but there is a much better way to answer than what you did.
If it were me, I would have had an answer that met my basic requirements of a satisfactory income plus overhead and profit. In addition I would have some factor for repeat work (actually since I hate to do the same thing time after time I would make it higher, but I digress)
My answer would have been, Well if it's exactly like this house and if you let me do it to my standards and schedule I need $X.
You do two things with that answer. signafy a willingness to negotate further and an ability to control your own destiny. Of couse it won't be exactly like this house, and he'll want to settle other details as well.
Then you get to use your most powerful tool.
Remember these words. they are magic!
If I can ...... will you.........?
If I can do it today will you give me a premium, pay me tonight, provide a long term contract, .....whatever.
If I can do it in Oak will you give me an additional 30%?
If I can do it to your specs will you pay me$X?
Never, ever, agree to any request without one of your own.
Never agree to anything unless you get what you want.
Will you make my house out of snowballs?
If I can will you agree to pay $135.00 a sq. ft.?
Will you give me a ballpark estimate on my new house?
If I do will you give me last look?
Will you be able to start my house next month?
If I can do you have a deposit today?
"you missed an oppertunity with your answer. Now perhaps you don't like this guy, or don't want work etc. but there is a much better way to answer than what you did."
Thanks for the advice, Frenchy. Maybe I misposted, or didn't tell the whole story. I told him I don't have a square foot price, but I'd be glad to take a look and give him a bid. Which I did, the next day. A carefully measured, doors counted, framing checked, on a letterhead bid, including what was, and was not, included for the price quoted, who would supply what when, when it would be done, and when payment would be due.
That's how I bid jobs. Not with some square foot guesstimate, not online at a bullitin board, and definately not with some fast talkin' salesman speak. I'm plain spoken and it's served me well through the years. Glad to hear you have a way that works for you, though.
Edited 5/11/2002 1:13:20 AM ET by jim blodgett
Jim,
Fast talk never works, nor will trying to slick or con someone. What works is your most recent post to me. showing an interest in doing a job and then selling it. I don't believe in quotes, too much of an oppertunity for the competition to capitalize on your work. I do tell people what things cost. If it's an estimate I clearly state that and what the modifiers are so that no-one misunderstands. If you want a quote from me you sign a contract. period. I'm careful how I do that, and have found over the years how to do things on a hand shake and leave the paper work to afterwards. I've sold tens of millions of dollars worth of equipment that way successfully.
How many times have you seen your hard work handed to someone else and shooting from the hip he underbids you? He's now a couple hours ahead of you, and he'll get paid for that and you won't. Now maybe your reponse is to never deal with that person again.. OK but sooner or later you paint yourself into a box. (OK. New York and LA excepted.)
If he needs a quote he's not sold yet. he wants to shop somemore or he has the worst memory in the world (some do and I'll scratch the number on the back of my card for those). (I usually write in red so that if he adds the model himself etc. he will either have blue or black ink).
Remember your competitiors don't need a break, don't do their work for them.
Selling is an honerable profession, that too many amatures try and fail at. they tend to give the profession it's bad reputation, but those who repeatedly buy from me have no such qualms.
Boss Hog,
I think the real problem is most of you know very well how to build. so far none of those who have posted understand how to sell.
Selling isn't easy, for every 100 who try it less than one is still doing it 5 years later. But there are some things you can do that will help. If you'd like I'll gladly give you the tips on how to negotate without feeling foolish or offending any one while you get what you want.
I'll give you a few tips on how to handle objections/ problems that turn complaints into income. and I'll tell you a few sure fire closes that actually work..
let me know if you'd like something like that. If it's well accepted perhaps it's an article for the mag..
Maybe your appraoch top getting a contractor is off. YTou are a super salesman. So SELL the job to a contractor. Make him WANT the job. Find out what his objections are, overcome them, and sell it at your price...
Excellence is its own reward!
Piffin,
I never considered that, I always thought that when I buy others should sell to me. tell me price features and benefits. How foolish, I need to rethink my life, now when I go to the grocery store I'll try to sell the clerk into selling me the groceries. or the barber into giving me a hair cut. I'll be certain to tell potential customers to sell me on the idea of selling equipment to them...
No need to be snide clyde, I was making a serious suggestion that I thought would help you out.
Excellence is its own reward!
Maybe I'm getting lucky these days, but after a few recent potential clients came to me where I thought the job was too expensive or the plan felt incomplete or it felt like the owner was going to be really picky ( in the case of a recent scale model representation of the house), I charged for the estimate.
No ballpark. It was a price I knew that I could stick with, carefully thought out. I charge $35 / hour for this, below my regular rate, but feel that I am being taken seriously and give quality in return. I do remodels mainly which vary immensely job to job and always have hidden costs.
Maybe try to get someone on your project that is respected by a few local sources and pay for their time. Just drop the idea of a builder having a price in their head the moment you ask them to see your model or site. There just aren't examples of other businesses that are as involved as construction where the quote you give is what the owner expects where also many seem to feel ripped off by costs adding up after the project starts.
Mike Butler
Bekeley Craftsmen Builders
Berkeley CA
Mike,
it's common throughout the business world to do a looksee for free, the idea that both parties measure each other up. Lawyers do it. You present your case to them and see what they think. at that time costs are discussed and terms agreed upon. many other businesses do something similar.
Doing otherwise involves too much trust for a relationship that hasn't started yet.
I get the sense on this board that if someone doesn't come with his wallet open, no-one considers them serious.
In my whole life I've never heard of someone coming in under the estimate and returning the differance. yet let any unexpected problem occur and the contractor seeks additional charges.
While it is understandable to charge more for additional work, what is not fair is to keep any overcharge and consider it profit.
Now to be fair there certainly are customers who abuse the contractor and I'm certain we all remember those. perhaps out of fear of those repeating there are some pretty customer unfriendly things done in the industry.
A classic case is my own. A out of shape, do-it- yourselfer who has spent 640 hours building the hardest third of the home. assuming that I spend an additonal 1280 hours (which I shouldn't since the hardest part is done that means I'll have 1920 total hours in it. lets be generous and round it up to 2000 hours) remember I don't do this for a living, I'm far from a pro and I spend too much tiome on details that have only marginal value.
what would you charge for 2000 hours of your time? remember the one bid I got was $750,000 that's $375.00 an hour. Do you charge $375.00 an hour? Let's assume you charge a typical $45.00 an hour(going rate around here) that's $90,000. do you think he'd returnthe $660,000.00 or would he consider himself shrewed to get such a profitable contract signed.
Frenchy,
I think the point of whether to lower the price if the work is done for less - the opposite of a change order - is something that never gets brought up.
We typically have a rigid schedule to follow for the crew on the job. If they get done early, we start on the changes that have happened since the job started. There are always changes. This is even with my estimating tightly, asking about needs of the space we're working on and trying to come up with solutions in advance to possible changes in the job.
If we can get some of the changes done within the allotted time, we will do those items and consider it part of the job. This almost never happens. Our estimates are usually too tight for this.
By the way, the three lawyers that I've worked with have charged a butload of a retainer and I've never seen any of that come back. Bad exampe. They have all given me about 10 minutes on the phone before requesting said retainer. The last one, very very competent, was $240 per hour and I got charged the $4 per minute for every call.
Maybe you live in France or something and have different experiences with Lawyers. (By the way, I am married to one; I don't hate them).
You seem to think that everyone in contracting is out to gouge. I really haven't found that to be the case. Most seem to want to do something well for someone nice, and make a living at it. They have been burnt by this before and make sure that their estimates will cover hidden costs wherever possible so they don't install that trim at the end of the job for free.
As for showing your wallet, I go back and forth on this. It is important to see if the client has a realistic idea about the possible cost of their dream up front. If you say you have $90,000 for the job you describe, I would be more than willing to sit down and take the time to do a good run through of the figures. If you said $45,000, I would suggest perhaps scaling back the project. I would still need to go through the numbers of my subs and count out my hours before getting you a ballpark. There are just too many variables in there to throw numbers out.
Mike Butler
Berkeley Craftsmen Builders
Berkeley CA
Mike,
You bring up good points, I agree most contractors I've met in the past 10 1/2 years have been decent honest hard working people. Their policy is to consider the differance between estimate and actual cost as profits. Most time well earned however, there should be occasions where the estimate is over. Like I said I've never heard of that.. I've never heard of anything costing less than estimated...
I'm not talking about the wacko who runs up a fortune in change orders, but there should be the same number of times when there is an easier job than forcast just as there will be jobs that are harder than forecast. If that doesn't happen, what's wrong?
You see this is a catch 22 for us. We want to be taken seriously but we don't want to lead with our chin. If we knew what our dreams should cost we'd just find a good contractor and have them do it. Tell them what we'd pay. Look at the price tag as it were and decide yes or no. Finding the contractor is a funny dance. How much do you cost, how efficient are you? how honest are you? What's fair. Am I dealing with a clever efficent contractor or is the price too low just to get the job? Am I being told (by the estimate) that you don't want my job, you're too busy , or I need to increase my budget? Referals have their place, however, they aren't the only answer. Perhaps they are friends or relatives. Perhaps they are cherry picked with bad referals left off.
This dance that we are involved in, is risky from both sides of the fence. You need us to pay on time, you need us to not be a pain in the asp, you need good referals.
We need actual estimated costs that are correct, usually a fast build schedule, and not leave us hanging. My neighbor an award winning contractor who I would consider to be honest decent and hard working has a mixed review of customers. Some love him, some hate him, and several have fired him from their projects. I have always been shocked at what things he does cost compared to my mental estimate for the work performed. Similar work in other parts of the city tend to be much less expensive.
Based on that, I never considered him to do this work. (that plus he has no experiance timber framing). How many contractors that I don't know have similar reputations?
Piffin,
I'm sorry, that post was out of line. You didn't deserve it. My only excuse was I'm feeling pretty defensive trying to talk sense into some pretty hard headed builders. They seem to forget that things go in cycles and we are over due for a major correction.
OK Frenchy, even though we are on opposite sides of the political spectrum, I've enjoyed our 'discussions'.
I also enjoy the sales part of this work. In designing, find out what they REALLY want, and then show them a way to have it - they love ya for life.
Excellence is its own reward!
Piffin.
There you have it. Find a way to give them what they want/need and you have great loyal customers. treat it like an income opportunity and you won't be happy nor will they.
I agree that blueprints can have errors, or be hard to interpret. But that's a normal part of dealing with bidding/building a job.
Couldn't that "hundreds of hours" you spent building a model been better spent talking to a builder about the job? It seems to me you've done the wrong thing, for the right reasons. (If that makes sense)
My experiences with "model builders" have been bad, but that's not a personal slam against you. I think it's more of a personality type thing - Some personality types just work beter with people who are more like themselves. And I'm not the type who would build a model.
Redneck Extraordinaire
I'm trying to find someone to re-build a kitchen and family room, and have several builders say "I'll get back to you" with a price, but never hear from them again. Is it so hard to say something like "I'm sorry, this isn't a project I can take on right now" or something like that ??
Seems a lot more polite than just ignoring phone calls or never calling back. A little honesty right off the bat would be nice. Even better would be an honest reason of WHY they don't want the job ...... I can take it .... maybe I'll learn something so that when I call another builder I'll present it better, or take whatever constructive criticism I got and apply it.
Yes, yes, yes. I am having a devil of a time getting anyone to say "Yes" or "No". They just kind of disappear. Maybe they'll take my job if something better doesn't come along, so they don't want to actually say "no"? I think they're afraid of what lies behind the paneling (old house, remuddled), so yesterday I tore it all off and left messages with a couple of new guys. One actually called me back.
It's not budget - I haven't even gotten far enough with anyone to talk money (which is actually sitting in a savings account just waiting). Business must be good here for contractors, I guess. The guy who called me back is already scheduling for next February.
"A completed home is a listed home."
Yeah, not getting back to people is just plain discourteous. But many of us will go to great lengths to avoid conflict of any type, and it's not comfortable telling someone that you don't want to work on their place. Still, I think the first rule of square dealing is keeping your word. If you say you'll do something, you should do it, or at the very least tell the other person why you decided not to.