Hi everyone,
I’ve been going around the house and replacing all my outlets and lights switches. Ran into a small problem. Have a 3-gang box with 3 light switches. None of the originals were grounded, but the new ones are going to be. There are four ground wires already in the box that are all spliced together, but now I need to add 3 more wires to the nest. The max my wire nuts can take in 14ga is 6 wires, and I have not been able to get a hold of any that can splice 7 wires. How can I solve this? Can I make 2 sets of splices, one with 4 of the 7 and the other with 3 of the 7, then run a jumper between the two? Or, can I use one wire that attaches to all three swithes I will install, making a total of 5 wires in the splice? Need some creative thinking!
Thanks!
Ryan
Replies
Daisey chain the ground from switch to switch and then a single ground to the original four. You can easily get five #14 wires in a red wire nut.
Dave
green wire nut with the hole in the center...
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming<!----><!----><!---->
WOW!!! What a Ride!<!----><!---->
Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!
I haven't used them yet, but I'll learn in the next month or so.
I'm a commercial electrician. Haven't done any residential work in quite a while, but will be wiring the new kennel/studio building soon.
Our local inspector had heart surgery (seven by-passes) two months ago. Don't know who is replacing him yet, so I better remember the green wire nuts. They are not a code requirement here, but you never know what a new EI likes.
Dave
Is that Tom Kenney (sp?) your talking about?
Green wire nuts are the bomb.
Expert since 10 a.m.
http://www.hay98.com/
Yes.
Tom took care of Shelby and Henry Co. His brother Jack does Trimble and Carrole Co., so I'm guessing he may pick up at least one of Toms' counties. Neither of them are welcome in Oldham Co. where Tom use to inspect. Long story about that, but it is just hearsay to me.
I heard about Toms' surgery at the November meeting of The Electrical Clearing House. He is recoverying now, but I don't know if, or when , he will be back. Tom is also the BI in Henry Co. I don't know who is doing that now.
They don't do building inspections on outbuildings here, but do electric and plumbing. I never had any problems with Tom in either capacity. Don't know a thing about his brother.
Dave
Oldham county is where I dealt with Tom. He inspected a service I built there. He was a cranky old fart I know that. He cracked me up because he walked up to the service and just stared at it. Then he would look at me, then the service. I just smiled at him. I guess he thought I was gonna start pointing out mistakes or something. Finaly he filled out a sticker and gave it to me. Then I had to fill out the permit and write him a check.
Two weeks later KYU still didn't have the O.K. from him to plug the meter in. I called him and he blew up claiming he had sent it and they were a bunch of idiots. The usual. I'd hate to deal with him every day.
What's the electrical clearing house?
Expert since 10 a.m.
http://www.hay98.com/
He mellowed out some, but still had some issues from what I hear.
I had one of those "what the hey" moments when he inspected my shop on the rough in. I waited all day for him to show up. Left about 4:15 and figured it would be another week before he inspected in Henry Co. again. I left the check in the panel box anyway, just in case he worked late. I got in from work the following day and had a message from him, that it passed, but he hadn't seen many panels like that. Huh, whatzat mean?
Called him the following Monday and ask. He said he didn't mean anything was wrong,... he just doesn't see very many neat panels out here.
Later, on the final, he comes in with the sticker already filled out. Took my check, tried to sell me a horse, and left.
I called him after correcting work he had failed on my BIL new house. He ask if I was taking over for the guy that was doing the work, and I told him, no, just helping out so they could get finished before Christmass. BIL said he came out and didn't even check the corrections, just told him....that other guy shoulda done yer whole job, ya would have had no problems....
If I had bought that damn horse, I think he would have just mailed in the paper work and sent me the stickers. <G>
Dave
LOL That's pretty good. I guess he's just a grumpy old fart. Comes off mean but mellows when he gets what he wants.
Expert since 10 a.m.
http://www.hay98.com/
IMEO, A good electrical connection requires;
Sufficient surface contact between the two conductors. That is a contact area at least the same size as the cross sectional area of the wire.
A forceful enough contact that oxygen is excluded from the contact area.
A strong mechanical connection.
Insulation, if a current carrying connection, ie not an equipment ground.
Properly pretwisted, or properly twisted by the wirenut, or properly joined, soldered, and taped are all reliable methods.
The keyword in all three ways is "Properly."
Except for butt welding and injection moulding new insulation, nothing beats a soldered, tripled taped, Western union splice.SamT
Now if I could just remember that I am a businessman with a hammer and not a craftsman with a business....."anonymous". . .segundo <!----><!---->
....." nothing beats a soldered, tripled taped, Western union splice. "that's just old fart talk....:).
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.Wer ist jetzt der Idiot
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Whadaya 'spect from an ole fart. I soldered my first connection ca1959.SamT
Now if I could just remember that I am a businessman with a hammer and not a craftsman with a business....."anonymous". . .segundo <!----><!---->
how do you get anything done these days, since you insist on doing it right ?I wonder what OSHA would have to say about dip pots and flames and fumes.....hoo boy.
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.Wer ist jetzt der Idiot
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How come you insist that the absolute best way for the most extreme condition is the right way for all conditions?
I wonder what your boss would say if you used wirenuts to splice a cable hung between two telephone poles or for an underwater connection at 200 fathoms, or even on a circuit board?
SamT
Now if I could just remember that I am a businessman with a hammer and not a craftsman with a business....."anonymous". . .segundo <!----><!---->
Edited 12/22/2006 9:14 am by SamT
is 200 fathoms deeper than 20,000 leagues...?I was agreeing with you earlier BTW.87 posts about wirenuts !!.
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.Wer ist jetzt der Idiot
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I tink a leege is like 7 miles?
A fathom is only 6'.SamT
Now if I could just remember that I am a businessman with a hammer and not a craftsman with a business....."anonymous". . .segundo <!----><!---->
You and John must go back a ways...
From:
JohnSprung <!----><!---->
7/16/2002 5:21 pm
To:
ALL <!----><!---->
(11 of 43)
21689.11 in reply to 21689.1
I'm way too old fashioned. I still like to solder and tape.
-- J.S.
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http://www.quittintime.com/
damn, am I fat!
If I solder and tape it's in a serious bad environment.SamT
Now if I could just remember that I am a businessman with a hammer and not a craftsman with a business....."anonymous". . .segundo <!----><!---->
you useing the Bucannan system then???
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming<!----><!----><!---->
WOW!!! What a Ride!<!----><!---->
Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!
I have been told that green wirenuts are no longer kosher with elec. inspectors...
Buchanons only...
maybe just NYS, maybe just local insp., maybe just loco electrician....??"And the Grinch, with his Grinch-feet ice cold in the snow, stood puzzling and puzzling, how could it be so?
It came without ribbons. It came without tags. It came without packages, boxes or bags.
And he puzzled and puzzled 'till his puzzler was sore.
Then the Grinch thought of something he hadn't before! Maybe Christmas, he thought, doesn't come from a store.
Maybe Christmas... perhaps... means a little bit more!”“And then the true meaning of Christmas came through, and the Grinch found the strength of ten Grinches plus two. “
Max Rules!!!
gotta be be the loco locals...
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming<!----><!----><!---->
WOW!!! What a Ride!<!----><!---->
Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!
Mister T,Here (Stafford county VA) we have locals that like the green wirenuts just fine for one device (single recpt or switch in single gang box), but like the crimp style sleeves (what you call Buchanons?) for boxes with two or more devices, so each device has its own ground lead. This changed sometime around 2003. Now I do this in all jurisdictions, so I don't know if it is required, I just know it passes!Frank DuVal You can never make something foolproof because fools are so ingenious.
When you are connecting 4-5 fourteen gauge wires in a wire nut, do you use pliers to twist them together first, before inserting them in the nut? What about with 4-5 twelve gauge wires?I don't know the answer and was just wondering what the standard operating procedure calls for.^^^^^^
S N A F U (Situation Normal: All Fouled Up)
yup... do that for two wires too...
clip off the plier marked up wires.. install insulator...
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming<!----><!----><!---->
WOW!!! What a Ride!<!----><!---->
Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!
Thanks, appreciate the info.^^^^^^
S N A F U (Situation Normal: All Fouled Up)
When you are connecting 4-5 fourteen gauge wires in a wire nut, do you use pliers to twist them together first, before inserting them in the nut?
NO. Many manufacturers specifically direct that the wires NOT be twisted before applying the wire nut. The problem is they may not make a good connection if the wires are pretwisted.
The "official" way to apply a wire nut is to start with straight, untwisted wire, stripped to the specified length. The wire nut is twisted on by hand, as tight as you can get it. Then, using lineman's pliers, continue twisting the wire nut until the wires entering the nut are twisted. The point is that the nut twists the wires, rather than you twisting them before applying the wire nut.
The problem with pretwisting is that the wire nut has less surface area in contact with the wire, which lowers current capability and weakens the connection. Can't tell you how many bad connections I have fixed because someone pretwisted wire nuts, didn't tighten with pliers, etc. Several fires, too.
Edited 12/20/2006 1:16 pm ET by woodturner9
Thanks for the info I appreciate it.
^^^^^^
S N A F U (Situation Normal: All Fouled Up)
woodturner9
Let me add my thanks to you.. I have been doing it wrong in the past because that's the way I was shown.. your answer simply makes more sense. I intend to go back and correct all of the errors. (I have one connection that I haven't been able to ever make good connection in spite of repeated atempts to correct it.. I suspect that this time I will have to replace the wire since it was on the short side last attempt..
You're passing on some mis-information here. NO wirenut manufacturer "specifically directs that the wires NOT be twisted before applying the wire nut".
They say "pre-twisting not required" or words to that effect.
Big difference.
Among professional electricians, that is, the guys (and gals) who actually perform the work and see the results of both approaches, there are strongly held-opinions about whether it's better to pre-twist the conductors when making a splice with a twist-on style compression connector. Some pre-twist, others don't. In my experience, you can get a good splice either way, but it takes about the same time and effort either way.
I've had way too many slices fall apart on me when pulling the wires out of a j-box, because people twisted on a wirenut without pretwisting, and didn't spin it on tight enough. And I've grumbled when I've had to open splices that had been pre-twisted way too much (producing several inches of the insulated wire that was tightly twisted together). So the point is to do it right, whichever way you do it.
I do not pre-twist splices, but I do use a wirenut driver to sock down the splice, such that the insulated conductors are twisted once or twice just before thewires enter the wirenut. I use a power driver made by 3M with a battery screwdriver, or a manual one built into an Idela electrician's screwdriver. Makes it easy to get a good splice.
Cliff
NO wirenut manufacturer "specifically directs that the wires NOT be twisted before applying the wire nut".
Some manufactures say "do not pretwist wires" - that's right off the bag of T&B wire nuts I'm holding in my hand.
If you read the specs and liability statements, they also disavow any liability if the wire is pretwisted.
Good luck finding this info on the web though - just looked, couldn't even find their installation instructions for wire nuts, let alone the tech data sheet.
Like most things, it's simple, but more complex than most realize to really get it "right". It does become something of a "religious argument", but most folks are debating based on preference and experience, rather than lab tests or enough evidence or experience to be meaningful.
The manufacturers say not to pretwist based on lab results and extensive studies. I agree that some manufacturers seem to say it isn't absolutely required. Of course, paint manufacturers sometime tout "one coat coverage", too - and well know that often is not the case. Sometimes the manufacturers say something because it sells products - or doesn't keep products from selling.
I can only say with certainty that some manufacturers say not to pretwist, I have personally seen many bad connections caused by pretwisting, and I have investigated fires, at least one of which was ultimately attributed to pretwisting of wire nut connections.
But, if you are getting adequate contact area and adequate twisting of the wire, it may not matter if you pretwist or not. However, I have never seen or heard ANYTHING to suggest that not pretwisting is harmful - so one could argue that not pretwisting is the best course of action, since pretwisting IS harmful, in at least some cases.
Sounds like your installation technique should be fine, though.
Edited 12/20/2006 3:13 pm ET by woodturner9
Here's a link to the 3M wirenut driver, both the one thta's run by a cordless driver and the version on a dog-leg hand driver
http://products3.3m.com
They're both inexpensive and save a lot of wear and tear on the hands and wrists. And they make great stocking stuffers...and a new hitachi li-ion screwdriver to go with it, would be nice too, eh?
Ideal Industries has a line of screwdrivers that have a wirenut driver socket in the back of the handle, they're very handy as well. See idealindustries.com, and go to hand tools/screwdrivers.
Merry Christmas--
Cliff
So it sounds like I can daisy chain the three switches with one strand of groundwire. If I'm assuming incorrectly, please let me know.
I have been pretwisting all my connections since the books I have read all say to do this, even the one by Taunton Press. I make sure ALL strands are adequately connected in the splice before I twist on the wirenut. I have both Ideal and GB wirenuts. Ideal says, "pretwisting acceptable", and GB says, "pretwisting unnecessary". Neither say to NOT pretwist. Ideal also says to strip wires long and trim to 3/8" after twisting.
The last thing I want to do is mess with electricity and do this wrong. I have been reading a lot to make sure I'm doing this correctly. I like being hands-on, and understanding this stuff. Plus, I will take the time, and some people hired try to hurry through a job.
Thanks!
Ry
but can we dip the pigtails in the ink well before tying???
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming<!----><!----><!---->
WOW!!! What a Ride!<!----><!---->
Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!
it has to be purple ink only.
ry
Something I had seen but not done is wrap the outlet one or two times with electrical tape with the tape going over the terminals.This is to avoid accidental contact between the outlet and terminal box.Is this standard practice by electricians or not?^^^^^^
S N A F U (Situation Normal: All Fouled Up)
commercial projects get thick wide rubber bands for that.....
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming<!----><!----><!---->
WOW!!! What a Ride!<!----><!---->
Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!
I have not seen it.I think that i did it ONCE where I had a real tight metal box.But in general it really isn't needed.In fact I run across a number of them where all of the screws are backed up and the back stable connections are used.I hate that.A lot of time I could have safelty pulled a device out of a box to check on something, like to see what cables are in the box.But with those screws sticking out I have to find the breaker and kill the power..
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Hey every group has to have one. And I have been elected to be the one. I should make that my tagline.
It costs about one cent worth of black phase tape to wrap a recepacle so think about it before you do so.
To the original poster:If you took apart a typical switch, you will find that there isn't much metal in them so they are unlikely to have any need to be grounded. The screw attachment at the yoke should provide enough contact with the metal box or mud ring to work. But daisy chaining the boxes with a piece of solid green wire you can do. Just strip off 1" or so of insulation every 6 or 8" inches. Also you can loop your incoming ground wire in the middle to the ground screw in the box thus cutting one more wire from your wire nut.
Have you investigated Wagos? They come with various configurations of holes, maybe up to eight. You strip about 1/2' from the end and stick it in the hole and that's it. These are slightly different that stab in the back receptacles.
One other thing is to mount a piece of ground bar to the back of your box and you can land all your grounds there.
I pre-twist the solid wires. First slightly twist maybe three and then add the rest and then twist tight. Clip off the excess at an angles to make starting it into the wire nut easier. I don't understand how this could be harmful since you can see that all the wires are connected.
~Peter
Buy 17 and get 3 free.
"The screw attachment at the yoke should provide enough contact with the metal box or mud ring to work.""Also you can loop your incoming ground wire in the middle to the ground screw in the box thus cutting one more wire from your wire nut."But most boxes are not metal.But I agree that the need to ground receptacle is really minimal. If understand the reasononing is that the a metal coverplate might be installed sometime..
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Hey every group has to have one. And I have been elected to be the one. I should make that my tagline.
Comment by 4Lorn1 in post 66157.7
Short answer is I twist them. Most every electrician I respect does the same.
Long form answer for the less initiated:
I almost always twist the conductors up before screwing on a wire nut. I feel this gives me the most control and helps prevent an number of potential problems. I strip the wires and twist them up. If it is only two or three I just hold the point where the insulation starts, not the tips which will be trimmed off one the joint is made, aligned and work it with Kleins.
Be careful when twisting up different gauge conductors together. The smaller ones will try to do all the work and wrap around the larger, stiffer, one. This can mean the wire nut only directly grips the outer wire. The one in the center only being held by the clamping force transmitted through the surrounding wrapping. This leaves the center one subject to slipping out as the joint heat cycles and vibrates with changing loads. Try for a more egalitarian structure where thick and thin, weak and strong all get deflected equally.
If there are more I twist two or three together and then lay any additional conductors in so they align smoothly with the original set. Be aware that while a 1/2" stripped is adequate for two or three wires as you need to lay in more you need more length. Plan on something close to a full inch, sometimes a bit more, with seven or eight #12s. Easier to have excess which is easily trimmed off than to find out half way into a connection your shy an eighth of an inch on a conductor you have already made up.
Once made up trim the joint square. All of the conductors should have the insulation starting at the same spot in the connection, no insulation caught in the wirenut spring and no shiners, bare copper hanging below the rest. All the conductors should have full contact from down with the insulation all the way to where they get squared off. None of them only catching a bit of the joint. Once cut, particularly with more conductors, use your Kleins to squeeze the bundle where you just cut a bit. Squeeze cross ways to the direction of the cut to restore the bundle to a cylindrical cross-section. This makes the wire nut go on much more evenly and smoothly.
Make up the wire nut firmly and inspect the joint for shiners. Gently but firmly tug each wire to make sure it wants to stay in. Get used to that sequence and it becomes automatic. Mostly muscle memory. Done well you can have a lot of confidence in the connections you make.
Of course the manufacturers claim and rate their wirenuts being made up without the wires being twisted. Seen a lot of those fail. Twisting them up is old school and makes me feel more confident in the connections I make up. When customers start calling the wire nut manufacturers when the circuit fails at 2AM and they cover the recalls my view might shift.
On the up side I have never seen a advisory from a wirenut manufacturer that says you positively can't twist up the wires. They just say twisting isn't necessary. Electricians have been using wire nuts and twisting the wires for something like 80 years. Of course wire nuts have improved some in that time so not twisting them won't vastly increase your time in purgatory.
http://www.quittintime.com/
damn, am I fat!
Edited 12/20/2006 9:06 pm ET by rez
Thanks EVERYONE for the great information. This is VERY helpful.
Just a curiosity. What brands of outlets/switches do you all prefer or think is the most reliable/durable?
I am installing all Pass & Seymour, but think Hubbell is pretty solid. I was less impressed with Leviton.
Ryan
You asked about preferred brand of outlets and swtches and I can't help you as I just buy whatever they have at Lowes and Home Depot.One other thing, and this has been debated before, I do not install the wire into the outlet by stabbing it into the back of the outlet and tightening the screw.Instead, I take the time to strip the wire, form a loop, and tighen it down the old school way on the terminal.Good Luck!^^^^^^
S N A F U (Situation Normal: All Fouled Up)
What grade of equipment are you talking; residentail, spec, commercial, etc?.
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Hey every group has to have one. And I have been elected to be the one. I should make that my tagline.
Sorry I didn't get around to responding until now. Our new son is keeping us quite busy!
I asked what brand of outlets/swithces all of you prefer and was asked what type of application this was for. All for residential, but I prefer to use a commercial grade product.
Thanks!
Ryan
Edited 12/29/2006 2:15 am ET by ry91
" All for residential, but I prefer to use a commercial grade product."Comcerial grade is way too expensive.Limit yourself to SPEC grade.An residential grade is ok for low usage/low current switches (bedroom and bath) and low usage receptacles (living room and bedrrom).Use the spec grade receptacles for kitcen, bathroom, and workshop areas..
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A-holes. Hey every group has to have one. And I have been elected to be the one. I should make that my tagline.
OK, I'll keep that in mind. Thank you.. How about specific brands that are considered the top brands, or, does it come down to personal preference?
Thanks,
Ryan
I don't do that much work that I have prefered brands.I usually use what Lowes has because I like there store much better than the local HD..
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A-holes. Hey every group has to have one. And I have been elected to be the one. I should make that my tagline.
might be folklore, but I've been told that when you see a receptacle installed with the ground pin up, it was done by a Navy electrician...if the metal cover plate comes loose, it falls on the ground prong & not across the hot & neutral...
makes sense unless you think about it very long ;-)
it is with this one, .
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.Wer ist jetzt der Idiot
?
Wrapping the outlet with electrical tape I'm sure is a good idea if I would slow down and take the time to do it.I happened to notice something the other day. I saw a 220 dryer outlet in a wall which was unfinished. I could see the outlet, the metal box, the wire, etc.The 220 outlet was installed in a electrical box made for a regular single electrical outlet. It was too small for the dryer outlet. I'm guessing everything was very tight inside the box.The box made for a dryer outlet is several inches wider and probably must easier to work with.Maybe the guy who installed this originally just didn't have the correct box and didn't want to make a special trip to buy one and he used whatever he had.^^^^^^
S N A F U (Situation Normal: All Fouled Up)
where is the inspector??.
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.Wer ist jetzt der Idiot
?
I don't know about standard, but it's a good idea with METAL boxes. I suppose if you have other devices in the box, there might be some advantage with plastic boxes, but I've only encountered it in metal boxes.
I trust you remember the flip top desk ink wells...
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming<!----><!----><!---->
WOW!!! What a Ride!<!----><!---->
Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!
"They're both inexpensive and save a lot of wear and tear on the hands and wrists. And they make great stocking stuffers...and a new hitachi li-ion screwdriver to go with it, would be nice too, eh?"Yes, that is very nice of you. I will email my address to you so there is no delay in sending it to me <G>.BTW, I could not find anything under tools at Ideal.But I did find tools for a couple of line under the different types of wire nuts.http://www.idealindustries.com/IDEAL-EZ/prodcat.nsf/Tables/WireNut?OpenDocument
http://www.idealindustries.com/IDEAL-EZ/prodcat.nsf/Tables/WingNut?OpenDocument.
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Hey every group has to have one. And I have been elected to be the one. I should make that my tagline.
Such wonders as wire-nut twirlers exist??? I was just discussing this with another woman whose hands aren't any better than mine at cranking those things down, that "they should make something for a drill..."Thanks hugely!
My pleasure. I've enjoyed your posts tremendously over the years.
I tend to not jump into the philosophical discussions here, but very frequently my thoughts and positions agree with yours. I subscribe to the old saying, "If you don't have anything to say, say it"...
Cliff
No kidding. My daughters wrists are stonger than mine! (she's 5)Rebuilding my home in Cypress, CA
Also a CRX fanatic!
For the wing style wire nuts to include the "greenie" ground type I take a 8 or so inch piece of 1/2" cpvc pipe and cut a couple of notches in one end for a redneck wirenut wrench. That length allows the ground wire to go into the pipe. If you want to gild the lily, put some grip tape or insulation on the other end for a larger handle. If you put too much work into it it will assure that you will lose it though.
Bob
That's the sort of recycling idea i should have come up with already, but i just labored along with awkwardly grabbing the nut with pliers, even though i disliked leaving plier tracks on the nuts. I'll make one of those for the greenies (which have now just become the second best electrical gizmo ever made), and buy the drill-operated socket for the others. I'll make a few of 'em so i stand a chance of finding one when i actually need it. ;^)I've sent this link to my GF who is also combined self-taught, Splinter-trained, and has lately begun attending Taunton University, as well. Thanks to all for these informative discussions. <low bow>
If you have a step drill bit, drill every screwdriver handle, then if ya lose one, yer still covered.
Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
I have irriatable Vowel syndrome.
It seems that would just give a round hole in hard plastic that would slip on the wings of the nut. Or did you mean it to work on wing-less nuts? If you have to jam it on hard to make the nut turn, that is another one of those he-man/strength things i may be lacking in.???
Sorry, wingless it is for. Works well tho'.
Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
I have irriatable Vowel syndrome.
I usually use the tan wingless ones that have the hex head and keep a racheting screwdriver with 5/16 socket on 1/4 hex to 1/4 square drive adapter in the bag or use the 5/16 end of the multi screwdriver if only doing a few.
I've just inspected my boxes of wire nuts and found 8-sided tan, winged red, starred (ten indents) orange, and a few other colors with wings... oh, and some five-sided yellow ones that i suspect came with some made-in-China light fixture. Looks like i'll be carrying the pliers in my hip pocket as long as i can't bear to throw anything away. <G>
I remember hearing here on BT for the first time about not re-using wirenuts as the metal in the caps once used deform and affect the tension on a new splice.
be for what it's worth and down a pint of eggnog
http://www.quittintime.com/
damn, am I fat!
I don't see where it matters. If asked, I'll gladly eat the cost of new ones.
The correct twist tension when using a wirenut is to achieve 1 complete twist in the insulated parts that are outside the nut.
One look at a completed connection will tell you if it was twisted enough. If a connection is made to that standard, you will hurt yourself trying to rip 12ga romex out of the connection. BTDT.
So you (Meaning me.) get smart, wrap it around a lever.
What happened is that the insulated part unwound, giving me ~1/2" more slack. When I really leaned into it, a lot more than pulling a 16d VC Sinker, the wire broke. Not at the connection itself. I can remember wires breaking from 1" on out. It's pretty random after that nearest inch.
BTW, that is with just one conductor under strain!
The act of twisting work hardens the wire. Tight twisting hardens more than not-so-tight. Insulated wire twists not-so-tight.
Untwisting the Uninsulated wire further hardens it and makes its' copper more springy. As this coil spring is formed from the twisted wire, it untwists radially also. This will radially twist the fresh copper that is applying the pull. The first inch or so gets tougher and doesn't break as easily.
The Wirenut prevents the inner core of wires from untwisting, because the forces are mostly translated back to a straight pull by then and are primarily trying to break the wirenut from the inside out.
Screwing the nut on and off and on and off and... doesn't weaken the nut.The electrical connection is created and maintained by the twisted conductor core.
Wire nuts with out a metal core should only be used on pretwisted connections. If pretwisting, put two full turns in the insulation. Plier tracks on the outside of the twisted core don't hurt the electrical connection. Any tracks that are not completely enclosed by the compressive part of the wirenut are not allowed. Three twists of virgin conductor are sufficient in any case.
Your homework assignment is with 26" of 12ga, strip the ends and make up a connection. Snip off the squirrely end leaving only 2 insulation and three bare wire twists. Try and pull the hoop apart.
Class dismissed.
ps. Don't reuse spring coreless nuts or those that lost their core.SamT
Now if I could just remember that I am a businessman with a hammer and not a craftsman with a business....."anonymous". . .segundo <!----><!---->
"Wire nuts with out a metal core should only be used on pretwisted connections." Ah...i'd wondered about that...
Don't ever crowd uncoilcored ones, always closely follow the listed capacities.
BTDT2
What!? You think I blindly follow printed instructions? I always test.SamT
Now if I could just remember that I am a businessman with a hammer and not a craftsman with a business....."anonymous". . .segundo <!----><!---->
In addition to the purpose built and modified EMT solutions mentioned here, I've found that some "4 in one" screw drivers are actually "7 in one"
Large flat blade
Small flat blade
#1 Phillips
#2 Phillips
1/4" nut driver (one end with no bit installed)
5/16" nut driver (the other end with no bit installed)
Winged Wirenut Driver (remove the bit holder totally)
http://jhausch.blogspot.comAdventures in Home BuildingAn online journal covering the preparation and construction of our new home.
I just stripped three #12 wires and tried that...nifty! The shallow indentations in the barrel of my 4-in-1 meant i had to hold the wires with pliers instead of fingers while forcing the screwdriver on the nut, but it sure made short work of twirling it up compared to twiddling with pliers on the wirenuts. You don't expect me to forego a power tool accessory just bec i could do it manually..? <G>
It does help with that extra bit of leverage when needed. The next post about the socket is pretty slick, too. I may have to try that one. I bet it's a 12pt. socket.
Of course, if there is an opportunity to buy a tool, that opportunity must be taken advantage of. My wife is starting to accuse me that we are building a house to create more of these tool buying opportunities.
http://jhausch.blogspot.comAdventures in Home BuildingAn online journal covering the preparation and construction of our new home.
I'm going to try ALL the new-to-me ways. It feels like Christmas to be getting all this 'leverage' on a matter i've been slightly annoyed about for a couple decades. Where was BT in 1985 when i started being a house junkie?
Dude... you're going to get someone killed with that sort of advice.
When connecting 14 or 12 ga wiring twisting the wires is the main connection, the wire nut is for protection of the splice.
The day you run into an untwisted pair in a hot junction box and take the wire nut off you'll understand why... and cuse the uneducated sob that put the connection together.
I took a class in college in 1978 called "electricity". We were taught to solder these connections and then tape them. We did not use wire nuts.Wouldnt' it solve a lot of problems to just go ahead and solder the connections with a soldering gun.^^^^^^
S N A F U (Situation Normal: All Fouled Up)
"We were taught to solder these connections and then tape them. We did not use wire nuts."The last one of those that I saw they switched the neutral.A lot easier to fix if it had been wire nutted..
.
Hey every group has to have one. And I have been elected to be the one. I should make that my tagline.
The day you run into an untwisted pair in a hot junction box and take the wire nut off you'll understand why
If the wire is not twisted, the wire nut was not properly installed. The point is that the wire should be twisted WITH THE WIRE NUT, not before - that's what makes the difference, and why some manufacturers advise against pretwisting.
Edited 12/21/2006 10:33 am ET by woodturner9
I've been doing this 25 plus years and haven't seen a wirenut yet that'll twist a solid copper wire.
Please enlighten me as to what I'm doing wrong.
"Please enlighten me as to what I'm doing wrong."Maybe you are holding your tounge wrong.Maybe xxPaulCPxx's 5 year old daughter has stronger wrists than you as well...Whatever the reason, I have always been able to twist solid copper wire, using a wirenut. It is easier with the winged ones, but I twisted them with the old smoother ones as well.When I have two wires of dissimilar size, I pre-twist, because that is the best way I have found to be sure that both wires twist, instead of the smaller one twisting around the larger one. But if both wires are of the same size, I twist the wires using the wirenut itself.In either case, I inspect the connection when I am finished, to be sure I got a good twist.
Get over it....... The angry going eat you up. ~Brownbagg '06
Thats what I was taught too. And I picked up a trick of drilling into the end of the handle of my no.2 phillips screwdriver with a step bit, I use that to tighten the wire nuts..easier on the fingers after a day of nutting off.
Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
I have irriatable Vowel syndrome.
I was thinking this was a wire nut specific issue, that is some manufacturers say "don't twist the wires" while some say "Do".Not that I see all that many different types of wire nuts.
Just curious, how did the pretwisting result in a fire? When we talk about pretwisting are we only talking about pretwisting the exposed conductor or do you also never pretwist the actual wires? If I remember correctly the last time I did it I pretwisted the insulated section of the wire and use the cap to twist the stripped section. When I didn't pretwist I have found that one conductor can be pulled out of the cap easily. I was using the orange caps with 3 #14s. Thanks,
learner
I got a question. if you putting four #12 under a red cap, or even three under a yellow cap. How do you hold the wires together to start the cap. It kills my hand trying to fight the wires.
BB,
I bend the wires till they hold themselves in position, then I only need add a little pressure from my fingers to make the bundle small enough to start the nut.
Especially bend them till the ends are all at the same (length) place so I don't have one trying to spring out of the nut.SamT
Now if I could just remember that I am a businessman with a hammer and not a craftsman with a business....."anonymous". . .segundo <!----><!---->
When getting ready to work a set of splices in a box I usually to the following (take an outlet at normal height, for example):
Position myself so my left shoulder is closer to the wall, usually kneeling or sitting on a 5 gal pail. Electricians tool pouch on my right side or hanging between my legs
With the conductors all sticking straight out from the wall, I gather them together, then bend them slightly away from me. If you were looking down from above, with the top of your head against the wall - I'm at 7-8 o'clock, the wires are at 4-5 o'clock.
I then snip off all of the conductors in one cut to about 8" out of the box or to the length of the shortest conductor, whichever is the shortest. (unless one is really short then I just work with it as best I can)
I then gather the grounds together and move the others wires so they are out of the way, usually pointing towards me. If adding a pigtail, I usually bend the pigtail to a U shape so it is not poking around in the box as I am trying to gather the other end into the nut.
Using my left hand to hold the bundle of 3 or 4 wires, they are all the same length and usually gather together nicely. I can then start the nut, or use my lineman's pliers to give a pre-twist or two. If it is 4 #12, I'll give a single twist to one pair, then a single twist to the other, then grab both and twist the group 2 or 3 times. Snip at a slight angle, then nut it. Good lineman's pliers can easily hold 4 #12 using the end of the jaws)
The key to all of this is gathering and trimming the conductors before starting. I've also found that if the ends are not staying even moving the bundle a bit allowing some of the conductors to slip in my grip will line them up. Since the bundle is slightly pointing away from me, if I pull them closer, the one that slips grows in length; if I move away, the one that slips gets shorter. (Hard to type/explain, easier to demo)
Oh, when I move on to the neutrals and hots, I strip then gather (the wires, not me).
Every once in a while it is necessary to re-trim ever so slightly when moving onto the neutrals or hots. This usually happens if I did not to a good job of sorting apart the conductors that are already nutted.
I am not a pro - this technique has been developed during my last two wiring projects: garage then house. There may be better ways, but this works for me. YMMV.
http://jhausch.blogspot.comAdventures in Home BuildingAn online journal covering the preparation and construction of our new home.
Just curious, how did the pretwisting result in a fire?
Because the wire was pretwisted, the wire nut did not make good contact with the wire. The pretwist was not tight enough to provide enough area for the current flow, so current was flowing through the poor connection of the wire nut. This connection heated up, causing the fire.
As far as I know, pretwisting the insulated portion of the wire is fine, and can help hold together multiple wires. My cautions referred to pretwisting the stripped portion of the wire, not the insulated portion.
In other words, the pretwisting was done in so badly a way that the wires did not make good contact with each other, then the wirenut was put on so poorly and loosely that it did not twist the wires further so that good contact was made with anything.
In even fewer words, it was a real hack connection that just happened to be pretwisted and just happened to have a wirenut.
If it had been a properly made up connection, pretwisted or not, wirenutted or not, there would have been no fire.
Woodturner, it seems to me that you believe that wire to wire contact is meaningless without also having wire to wirenut contact. Did you know that they make wirenuts with no metal inside? The whole thing is just an insulator. The only wire to wire conduction is in the wire to wire contact itself.SamT
Now if I could just remember that I am a businessman with a hammer and not a craftsman with a business....."anonymous". . .segundo <!----><!---->
Woodturner, it seems to me that you believe that wire to wire contact is meaningless without also having wire to wirenut contact.
No, not really. The connection should ideally be wire to wire - the wire nut digging into the wire is really just a "backup". The important point is that there is a tight enough connection between the two wires. The primary purpose of the wire nut is to hold the wires in tight physical contact - and it facilitates this by twisting the wires.
If the wires are pretwisted, the wire nut may not get enough "grab" on the wires to properly twist them and keep them in tight physical contact.
FWIW, I personally avoid the plastic only (i.e. no metal) wirenuts. In the lab tests I have reviewed, they did not get the connection as tight, and failed much earlier.
Edited 12/22/2006 11:22 am ET by woodturner9
Now I understand.SamT
Now if I could just remember that I am a businessman with a hammer and not a craftsman with a business....."anonymous". . .segundo <!----><!---->
Anyone that thinks sticking 2 round objects into a thrid round object will result in optimal surface area contact paid less attention in geometry class then I did... and that's no small feat.
Did any of you electric wizard ever play baseball??? Hitting a round ball with a round bat is merely childs play....
On this thread .... I have once again lost this message boards value... Sorry but any advice is now suspect... C'ya all for now...
Bye.
Don't let the door. . . .Well, you know.SamT
Now if I could just remember that I am a businessman with a hammer and not a craftsman with a business....."anonymous". . .segundo <!----><!---->
ha! I was just going to say the same when I scrolled down and saw yer post. Too funny.
Gee, and to think just last night I threw away two of them
http://www.quittintime.com/
damn, am I fat!
Well then get the hell out if ya can't take a bit of consternation and objective behavior..thats what makes BT , BT.
If you expect PROFESSIONAL advice for YOUR situation, GO find it elsewhere, this a forum of us that live around the world, your instance may vary, and obviously so do your expectations of the FREE advice tha is proffered..get a grip. Or is "sledgehammer" how you view life?
Bye,,,see ya,,,,so long,,,want yer wifes's panties back?.
Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
I have irriatable Vowel syndrome.
"On this thread .... I have once again lost this message boards value... Sorry but any advice is now suspect... C'ya all for now..."ALL "ADVICE" GIVEN IN EVERY MESSAGE ON EVERY FORUM SHOULD BE SUSPECT!Anyone that would take the advice of any one posting here (including myself) is certifiable. In almost everything you will find differences of either minor or major difference. And more than once it turns out that none of the posters are rigth because they misunderstood the problem."Anyone that thinks sticking 2 round objects into a thrid round object will result in optimal surface area contact paid less attention in geometry class then I did... and that's no small feat."No one in this thread never suggested that. And anyone that belives that is what is was said is not qualified to read the thread.But just to accurate. We are talking about 2 cylindrical ojbects, not round and the 3rd object is a truncated cone..
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Hey every group has to have one. And I have been elected to be the one. I should make that my tagline.
If I were to judge by the evidence of your post, I would say that it is now obvious, that Paul's 3 year old daughter DOES have stronger wrists than you do. That is, if your putting two wires together and putting a wing nut on them, results in "two round objects inside a third round object"...As Bill said, it is more like two cylindrical shapes being stuck inside a truncated cone shape.To take it further, if you do the job correctly those cylindrical shapes become a bit "mushed". They will more than slightly flatten against each other. They will twist tightly around each other and conform to each other as well as to the shape of the wingnut, and to the threads inside the wingnut.If you do it correctly, then when finished you should be able to unscrew the wingnut, and the wires should stay connected unless pulled apart. You should also be able to see how they have been mashed, how they conform to each other, how they have taken on that cone shape and have a point on the end.If you take that wingnut off and they just fall apart and show no signs of being formed to each other, or having been slightly cut into by the threads of the wingnut, then you should call your own daughter and have her tighten them correctly.
Get over it....... The angry going eat you up. ~Brownbagg '06
She's 5. My son is three. Well, until tomorrow that is.
I thought is was VERY important you have your facts straight ;)Rebuilding my home in Cypress, CA
Also a CRX fanatic!
I understood I was allowed a bit of artistic lisence when I found someone's button and was pushing it for fun.;o)
Get over it....... The angry going eat you up. ~Brownbagg '06
Show'd him huh? or my assss. What does that? new moon? ( oh gawd,Ijust opened a new door) 0;)
Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
I have irriatable Vowel syndrome.
Showed him what ?That I too, can be an arse ?IMHO, not something to be proud of.
Get over it....... The angry going eat you up. ~Brownbagg '06
Shucks Jeff, I was being with ya, not agin ya...BTW, you didn't get a check? I have an outstanding tha is a few weeks old..please tell me you have not yet gotten to the bank, but have it in hand?
Oh jeezes..a mouse just ran up my leg..after I bragged ...abooout the cats,,wheee.oohh.whee, no oww. shid,
Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
I have irriatable Vowel syndrome.
I knew you were. I just know what it feels like to have people ganging up against you, and I don't think being a part of that is something that I personally, should be proud of.No matter what the reason. "Deserved" or not...~~~No check.Of course, I haven't checked the mail since monday. And we have a foot of snow on the ground right now, and lots more falling. Dunno if I'll get to the mailbox until after christmas.
Get over it....... The angry going eat you up. ~Brownbagg '06
I use pink ribbons, .. (Batting My eyes)
Oh , You guys are talking about wire pigtails.. ;-)
they were...
the others were talking about Suzy's in third grade...
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming<!----><!----><!---->
WOW!!! What a Ride!<!----><!---->
Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!
It's Gabriel, and she'/s in kindergarden. Man, I need someone to drop off a pallet of ritalin for you guys.
She also prefers her pigtails tied with purple ribbon. Or polyvinal tape... as long as it's purple.Rebuilding my home in Cypress, CA
Also a CRX fanatic!
didn't have desks in kindergarden... spent too much time in the time out corner behind the piano then to play pigtails...
did manage to take a lot of piano apart before I was busted...
so I was hyper active that didn't do bored...
didn't get ink in the wells till 3rd grade...
and it use to be blue, red, white or yellow ribons..
purple was uppity..
would you mix that ritalin into my geritol please???
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming<!----><!----><!---->
WOW!!! What a Ride!<!----><!---->
Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!
Your geritol would happen to be 90 proof would it ? ;-)
don't drink at all..
allergic...
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming<!----><!----><!---->
WOW!!! What a Ride!<!----><!---->
Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!
me too....
I get the hives..
if they ever figure out a fix I'm gonna drink every one I have passed on for last 45 years in one weekend...
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming<!----><!----><!---->
WOW!!! What a Ride!<!----><!---->
Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!
I break out in stupid they hang the cuffs on me. ;-)
Nope, never played baseball or softball very well, too busy reading the directions on the box of Ideal wirenuts I bought back in middle school. Directions plainly stated to insert the wires into the wirenuts straight and then twist the wirenut. I have been doing this since the late 60's and have only pretwisted wires when I could not hold them together long enough to put the wirenut on.When I remove the wirenut, the conductors (even the solid copper 10's) are tightly twisted together and I need to use my Kleins to untwist them. Of course I use my Kleins to tighten the wirenuts now that my hands have less strength than back in my school days!Frank DuVal You can never make something foolproof because fools are so ingenious.
Exactamungo!A friend of mine bought this house build in the 50's with an addition in the 70's and possibly other remudling done along the way.A door had been cut from the old basement into the addition's drive out basement where there was also a man door.There where 3 and 4 way switches that controlled the lights in this area. The comination of what switches turned the light on and off did not make any sense. Tracing it I found that they ran a 14-2 cable between the switches along with a completely separate wire. That wire ran across the bottom of the joist in the garage section. In the middle the wire was splited. A wire nut was put on and twisted hard enough to wrap 1/2 of the insutaltion of one wire around the copper on the other. Then the end of the wire was broken off. So it made contact sometimes and sometimes did not.Also there where no connectors where the cables entered the switch boxes. And in the middle was a wall lamp spliced in with lamp cord.Question - was the problems caused by the improper wire nut usage or was the whole installation SUBB (screwed up beyond belief)..
.
Hey every group has to have one. And I have been elected to be the one. I should make that my tagline.
I'll second Bill's "exactamundo" !!
Get over it....... The angry going eat you up. ~Brownbagg '06
the green wire nuts let run a leader.. cake and pie.. more better..
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming<!----><!----><!---->
WOW!!! What a Ride!<!----><!---->
Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!
IIRC the green ones don' allow for as many wires as some of the larger nuts.But it can reduce the number of wires needed.But not in this case. As all of the wires are already cut to length.But this is not that unusal. Soon or later will probabl need to bundle it up into a couple of bunches with a tie between them.3 or 4 gang boxes. Feed from more than one circuit. Some 3 or 4 ways with the feed, light, and feed to other switch. Then through in a string of can lights that are easier connected with 2 feeds from siwtch.Before you know it you have 8 to 10..
.
Hey every group has to have one. And I have been elected to be the one. I should make that my tagline.
Model
Color
Wire Combination Range (Inches)
Quantity
Cat. No.
92¯
Green
#14 thru #10 AWGMin. 2 #14Max. 3 #12 w/ 1#14
Box of 100
30-092
Carton of 1,000
30-192
Keg of 5,000 (10 bags, 500 ea.)
30-292Buchanan B-CAP¯ Grounding Wire ConnectorView Image
Green model for grounding and bonding applications
No pre-twisting required
UL Listed and CSA Certified View Image
Model
Color
Wire Combination Range (in.)
Quantity
Cat. No.
BGR
Green
#14 to #10 AWGMin. 2 #14Max. 5 #12
Box of 50
BGR-1
Bucket of 2500(10 Bags of 250)
BGR-25
Carton of 5000(20 Bags of 250)
BGR-B
The top table is for the "greenie" standard ones. I think I would just take a length of stranded green and tie it into the pack of bare grounds and daisy chain. I hate to have a bunch of bare copper running awound in a box. The next fool that changes a switch may not be as careful as should be.
I luv those, now if we coulld get them for the balck wires too :)
what??
noblack felt tip....
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming<!----><!----><!---->
WOW!!! What a Ride!<!----><!---->
Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!
the simplest way is left over right.. right over left..
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming
WOW!!! What a Ride!
Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!