OK, I’d like to think I have the answers when it comes to how to do things correctly and why. The problem is training my helpers. Some of the ones from our current job are:
Why we should get the housewrap straight, tight, neat and correctly lapped.
Why the headers need to be flush with the studs, and why they should be tight to the top plate instead of tight to the packs (oh yeah–that’s what we call the jack/king stud combo).
Why we need to make sure the top of the plywood is nailed off, and why the rafter birdsmouths need to be tight to it.
Why housewrap/plywood hanging/pulling 2×6 joists is a one-man job.
Now I know all of these things seem common sense to us, and I’d like to think they know WHY deep down. I think it’s more they take it too personally when I correct them, or encourage them to do something differently than the “same ol’ way”.
I know, too, that I try the first couple of times to explain and show them the correct way, to be gentle, if you will. But how many times do I have to repeat myself before they learn? My framing mentor was a bullheaded, foulmouthed
#hole who would cut you down at the slightest chance. But he helped me learn (and in a hurry, too). I really don’t think that’s the most effective way, but then again, I’m not in business to make friends…
Jason Pharez Construction
Framing & Exterior Remodeling
Replies
You may not be in the business of making friends, but if you want to retain the best long term employees, you will need to treat them with respect.
The best way that I have found to get my employees to perform to my standards is simply to insist on it. If the work is not done properly, it has to be redone. I will pay them to undo the substandard work and have them redo it. This lets them know that I am serious about what I say. Rarely do you have a repeat occurence.
Of course if the workers are truly learning the trade for the first time, they will make mistakes and half the challenge is giving them work that they can do succesfully and taking the time to properly instruct them in any unfamiliar task. Still, they should know that there is an acceptable standard for every task and they need to meet that standard or else redo the work.
Schell & Dan, Thanks.
I often find myself making my help redo things (under my FULL supervision this time) because the original results are unsatisfactory. They usually get angry and offended when this happens. I also try to fix my own mistakes instead of making them do it, as I think this shows leading by example.
I have one helper who is motivated mainly by the fact he needs to work as much as possible to feed his family. He does the work and never complains, even though he commits a few mistakes. He's also older than I. The other one is a few years younger than me, lives at home, and seems to always blame someone else when he screws something up. Perhaps he just doesn't have a good work ethic or sense of responsibility yet. We've gotten into a couple of "heated discussions", one of which happened today: He started whining about nothing to do, I'm going home, so I told him to go home.....he became aggressive so I ignored him and he stayed the rest of the day (and did an admirable job, too.)
I guess I see and hear of real team players like Tim U's, and goodness knows I've been with some great guys; I just wish I could find a teaching/coaching method that works in every situation. That might be difficult with me only being 23 and not having a lot of experience to draw on. I appreciate the help!Jason Pharez Construction
Framing & Exterior Remodeling
Unfortunately there is no coaching or teaching strategy that works in every situation. The only common thread is patience. Don't react to your employee's anger or whining except by being firm on insisting that the job be done properly.
In the long run, your employees will take great pride in working for someone who cares about the job enough to insist on good work. Our stategy is to allow our employees to do their best work. This is not always the case in every job and our guys know that. Not every employee will be interested in this but the ones that are will be loyal and hard working; they will be the ones setting the standards for the new hires.
It just takes time(a lot of patience) and a committment from you.
I suggest a proper introduction when you hire new employees. Explain you have a certain level of expectation, that you will correct them from time to time, don't take it personal, that you are open to reasonable suggestions and willing to learn other ways also. But be sure to be clear that this is your operation and you are the dictator. People will appreciate your frankness early on.
Heh, I just wrote up something on word I plan on giving to each new hire along with the "Company Policy", entitled "What I expect from you"...everything from lunch breaks to carrying studs...maybe it will discourage the dead weight and the "cowboy carpenters" (as Brian calls them) from even showing up!
Seriously though, someone has got to teach these kids (and men) that you otaa really work hard if ya really wanna make good money in the trades.Jason Pharez Construction
Framing & Exterior Remodeling
that is good advice for any profession
I agree with the above answer. I don't get into a lot of why's and wherefores unless it is something that takes calculation. The stuff you listed in my mind is just done to make sure your work is at a professional standard. If that answer is not good enough maybe unemployement is in their future. DanT
Same as schilling. I use patience and simply explain (in so many words) that its got to be done my way, if they screw up ultimately I get the call, not them. I've paid to have it done twice before and probably will again. My current helper is older than me and I still find myself "teaching" him. Of course if it gets to be too expensive he'll have to go, but for now I keep watch on him and make sure he does it my way.
View Image
SportHunter 1200 Shock Collar
$199.99
Eight levels of momentary and continuous correction. Plus a completely waterproof receiver
Range: 3/4 Miles
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It's only satisfying if you eat it.
Dustin,
If I explain this will be placed on them in the employee policy, does this mean it's legal to use? LOLJason Pharez Construction
Framing & Exterior Remodeling
Sometimes you have to get out the cattle prod, just to get the collar on.
View ImageHot Shot HS36 Cattle ProdTop-Of-The-Line 'Premium' Prod
--------------------------
It's only satisfying if you eat it.
Edited 1/10/2006 7:31 pm ET by dustinf
LOL..... yer right outta yer mind dude.View Image
Must have been a good hike.[email protected]
It's Never Too Late To Become What You Might Have Been
It was. Here's a link to the update/pics http://forums.taunton.com/tp-breaktime/messages?msg=67914.31--------------------------
It's only satisfying if you eat it.
Boredom. --------------------------
It's only satisfying if you eat it.
Good one! DanT
The way I try to train is to do one or two in front of them. First one shows the overview. Second I do slowly explaining any tricks and what I'm looking for. What is important. Then I let them try one without any great amount of criticism. Let them get the feel of it. Then as they do the next make corrections at each step. Watch them do a third and critique the result pointing out how it fails to meet standard and what they have to do, technique wise, to avoid the situation.
Then send them back to correct the first couple they did. Let them go and come back a bit later to see that they are getting it right.
It helps a lot to try to remember how it was when you didn't know how to do the job. With experience they too will develop muscle memory that makes the job automatic. Try to concentrate on how you actually do the job yourself. Concentrate on the technique your using. Old hands tend to have a hard time teaching because the job has gone from being a mental procedure with steps to muscle memory and habit.
Try to organize your thoughts and divide the job into simple steps. Teach the steps not the outcome. I can yell and cuss all I want for a helper to wire a meter can but unless they already know how it isn't going to get done. You might as well yell for your new carpenter to 'build me a house'. Everyone gets frustrated that way. On the other hand If I tell him to run a conductor from point A to B he/she has some idea what I want. Teach the steps and procedure and the larger result will follow.
It also helps to start early teaching self-critique. I tell my helpers to stop before they are about to cover something up and to look at the job they have done. Take a breath. Look at it as it you had never seen it before. Critique it. It is neat, straight, correct? Could it be done better? Once they have a mental list of things that are not perfect consider if any of these shortcomings is critical enough to demand correction. If so correct it. If not remember the imperfections and try to avoid them on the next one.
It helps to have helpers critique each others work. Make it public and honest. Once they have absorbed the ability to critique their own work it makes your job a lot easier.
All of this takes time. It is hard to get production and train at the same time. The way I think of it is this: It may take months of 2/3rds production for you and the helpers. But after that few months both will be at 100%. The alternative is you operating at 100% while the helper works perpetually at 60%. The area under the curve long term is greater with training. Even if it slows you down for a few months.
4 One again I appreciate your input...especially about the percentages of productivity...Man do you hang out with Jerrald Hayes or something? LOL
Seriously though, you have a point, and it's one I've tried to instill in my trainees:
"The less I'm on the job the more we'll all get out of it"
That has a lot of meanings, but mainly, If I'm not on-site babysitting everyone, the more time I have to plan for everything, get ready for everything, and think evrything out, so the job goes smoother.Jason Pharez Construction
Framing & Exterior Remodeling
Good luck Jason. I don't have a single answer. My last 5 years have been a genuine battle between trying to teach and holding back the impules to commit murder. I tried money, training days and anything else I could and still 90% just didn't seem to care about anything but the amount on the check being correct. I guess they all think that the money just flowed into the bank and was not related to their job performance. When I started out 30 years ago is was never an issue. Everyne seemed to know that to make good money they needed good production. Today that concept seems to have gotten lost.
J,
This is exactly why I do not wish to be an employer. Been there done that............my son worked with me for 4 years up until recently, at least he displayed some interest in learning.
If the kids or guys or girls or whatever, don't truly have an interest in learning the trade that you are attempting to teach them, you are f' d.
You can't make them be interested, and to them it's just another stupid job, why the hell should they care about the things you care about?
You need to find people who truly WANT to LEARN AND DO!!
Cripes, you're offering a paid education, what more could anyone want?
I worked for a hot headed Italian builder as an aprentice. He used the military system. Ok, your all a piece of sh i t, now let's get to work. Not exactly the best way to aproach teaching, but it worked for me, and , he was patient enough to slow down and teach me something, but I think it was because I was able to display a genuine interest in what WE were doing.
Good luck amigo,
Eric
[email protected]
It's Never Too Late To Become What You Might Have Been
I can sympathize Eric! I agree you have to show a genuine interest in learning something, or else you will never truly be great at it.
That's what I attribute my education to: A steadfast teacher who was willing to "school" someone (me) who displayed the willingness to totally commit to mastering something.
Jason Pharez Construction
Framing & Exterior Remodeling
Couple things Jason....
Some of what you describe is just sloppy workmanship. I think sloppy workmanship is caused by one of three things. The first is laziness.... for which, I believe there is no cure. So if that's your guy's problem, cut 'em loose. The second is a lack of knowledge... they just don't know any better. This doesn't sound like your problem either. Which leaves my third reason.... your workers don't feel any pride or ownership in whatever task they happen to be doing that you're finding fault in.
I try really hard to make my guys feel like we are a team and not a pecking order. You will always have different skill sets on your crew and need to assign appropriate tasks, but there doesn't have to be a pecking order. Someone needs to pick up scrap and push a broom. That guy is just as important as the guy cutting rafters. Make sure he knows it. All your guys should be treated the same. The only place the difference in their skill set should be reflected is in their paycheck. And that goes for crew member to crew member relations. Not just boss to crew member.
Another thing I've found is that training a crew is a lot like training a dog. I mean this in a good way. You've got to find a way to make them want to please you. I think the key to this is being honest with your guys. Don't try to be everyone's best friend or you'll get treated like that chick in highschool who slept with the whole football team. They'll all stick around (cuz you got the checks, not the poonanny) but no-one will respect you. If you all end up being best friends.... it's a bonus, not the goal.
To get your guys to respect you and want to please you, you've got to pay the cost. (Payin' the cost, to be the boss) Lead by example. Tell them the truth and be honest. "Hey Bill, that's just not going to cut it man" "Hey Bill nice job today, that came out killler".
Something else I say to my guys, "Look like a pro, work like a pro, act like a pro, and you'll get paid like a pro". From time to time, if one of my guys should question me about my criticism, I explain a little economics to them. I explain to them that I pay them very good money because I get paid very good money. If we start producing sloppy sh1t, I'm not going to get paid good money anymore. Our clients pay a premium for our services and for that, we need to provide a premium service. If we don't, the work dries up and we're all out on our azzes. There's a 100 average framing crews. When things get slow or someone wants the very best quality, they're not going to call the average guy.
It also sounds like you've got a young testy guy with a bit of an attitude. Personally, I wouldn't have him on my crew. But that's just me. I'm not in the business of molding personalities.... that was his mother's job. My job is to take good personalities and mold them into carpenters. For me, the job is too tiring, stressful, and difficult to take a mouthful of sh1t from someone who works for me. We all have bad days, so of course I'm forgiving if one of mine is just having a bad day. But if there's an ongoing theme of disrespecting my authority..... you're not a good fit for my company.
I've had the same core of guys for about a year and a half now. Went through about 20 guys to find the three I've got now and I wouldn't trade them for the world.... and I let them know it. But don't be afraid to keep looking. I once started a new guy and one of my other's guys asked, "Who's that?". I said, "It's your replacement". Guy number #1 cleaned up his act right quick. It's a very rare day now that I have to put the "boss hat" on. They know what I expect and just do it. If they don't know, they ask. They understand that meeting my expectations and tolerances IS their job.
What I'm saying is that they understand that their job isn't just building the house. The job is to build the house to my satisfaction and standards. Keep at it Jason.... it's achievable. I don't yell on the jobsite, I don't swear at my guys, and they'd all run through walls for me if I asked. But I'd do the same for them.
Brian, how come you and Tim have your stuff together? Oh wait, I know it's b/c you're gods of framing LOL!
Seriously, I know where you're coming from. The pecking order...I can remember not so long ago (2 years ago, actually) I was the cleanup guy. But I could show you the most efficient cleanup system there was! And I would make a "ship" out of rafter cutoffs just so I could get 25 pieces of scrap into the pile in one swoop! But I guess that's just me!
I've decided to place an ad for a new helper (carpenter, really) this week just to see what turns up. Drug free, experienced, independent, but willing to adapt. It's a lot to ask but the money's good, as are the benefits.
I really do value my help: I ask them what they think about upcoming work, how we did on this job, or how we expect to do on the next job. At the same time, though, I can't help but to feel like maybe I'm letting too much control out of my hands, maybe becaoming too democratic.
I appreciate it bro, as one of those framers whose reputation "demands a premium."Jason Pharez Construction
Framing & Exterior Remodeling
Great post !
After close to 30 years at this game the most important thing to me is building & coaching the TEAM
On a hill by the harbour
A thread like this always interests me-probably because I've been teaching carpentry techniques since I was 23 myself!
Jason, your age is a huge detriment to this endeavor. When I read your first post, I kinda didn't understand what the question/problem was. When I got to the post that said your 23, I understood exactly what is going on because I've lived it.
One of the problems that you'll continue to run into is skepticism from the older guys. They will have had some experience doing things in a less than stellar manner and they'll tend to want to drift back to that type of substandard workmanship. Your biggest challenge is to prove to them that doing it your way makes sense. That's not easy.
The problem with doing it your way is that it makes YOU the expert and they really don't believe that you are an expert at this stage of your career. If you try to prove that you are the expert, you will come across as a braggert. That, in a nutshell is your dilemma.
The workaround to this problem is invoking third party experts. One of the tactics that I used the most over the years is to invoke the manufacturers specifications and simply state that we need to do the job to the specs in order to preserve the warranty. If I'm conversing with a hardheaded individual (rough framers normally have to be hard headed to stay in the field), I casually toss in the conversation that my written contract with the builder/owner includes specific language that includes installing all products to the manufacturers specifications.
That approach lays the foundation for specific instruction regarding basic nailing patterns and installation practices. It gives you a third party standard that you can call upon instead of bullying someone with the oft repeated phrase "just do it my way".
The second part of your question involves the question of "why". Actually, I was one of those guys that needs to know the "whys" of each explanation. If I can understand the why, I can develop the skills much faster to solve other similar problems. My first mentor was terrible at delegating tasks and I'd often have to stop him in mid-explanation and ask "Boss, what are we trying to accomplish here? Just tell me what you want done and I'll figure out how to get it done". Teaching the "why's" will indeed free you from perpetual training.
You got a lot of good advice already in this thread. Ill toss out a good book to read :First Break All The Rules.
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0684852861/qid=1137069224/sr=2-1/ref=pd_bbs_b_2_1/002-3686021-0777613?v=glance&s=books
Everyone that manages or trains others should get this one.
blue
Jason,
I would answer their question with the standard because its craftsmanship. I would ask them if they would fly on a plane that was banged together the way they want to bang that house together.
Now with that being said the hardest part about about mentoring is figureing out what they are actually asking.
Alot of times people just dont know how to phrase a question to get the answer they actually want.
one technique is to ask them 7 times.
Why do we do this this way?
then ask why do you think?
They say XXX
The ask why do you think XXX
They say because of XXX
You ask again why do you think XXX
On and on eventually they will answer their own question and if they cant you will know exactly what the question is and what they actually now and dont know.
Buck Construction
Artistry In Carpentry
Pittsburgh Pa
Sancho, Blue thanks for the latest posts.
Blue, I certainly know what you mean by being the expert at 23! But as I was always taught, "Whoever signs the checks...."
The young guy I had mentioned before ended up quitting today on very poor terms. I told him he was formally fired when he came back later to get one of his tools (and return some of mine), which he did in a very vain manner. In the process he also disrespected other crew members, one of which being my father! I'm sorry but no 19 year old helper is gonna say "F U" to my dad, fellow employee or not!!
The crappy part was apparently he had been offered another job, and this week was supposed to be his last week...what ever happened to just saying, "hey man, this just ain't workin' out" and leaving on good terms? Since when did people start thinking they had to be azzes to leave their current employer?
I feel like the crew is better off without a negative attitude. And this employee was certainly not someone who "can't" be replaced. Apparently he made comments like, "what would Jason do without me?"...Well, I'll tell you, we finished a roof without him with three people instead of four in the time it normally takes four! Screw him! Like my old boss says: "Tell him I gave him a $3 raise and then fired him!"
Anyway, thanks again to everyone for the good advice that I hopefully can apply to the next new hire.Jason Pharez Construction
Framing & Exterior Remodeling
Blue, I certainly know what you mean by being the expert at 23! But as I was always taught, "Whoever signs the checks...."
Jason, I don't buy into that "whoever signs the checks" statement. Neither should your guys. Just because you have the cash, doesn't mean that you automatically have their respect.
Respect is earned no matter how old, how smart or how rich you are.
The thing you have to do as a 23 year old is to be better prepared than anyone on that crew. At 23 that meant that I might have to take the plans home and do three or four hours of mental prep at night, combined with extensive book reading to fill in some gaps. As a way to be better prepared, I used to pull out the drawing board and draw working drawings of the more difficult projects that I'd know were going to be done tomorrow. I'd do them to scale too.
One of the most important things you can do when someone is quitting or being fired is to stay cool. During this time, all the other guys are watching and measuring you. If you can find someway to not muck around in the mud and quickly refocus on the task at hand, it will be much better for you. Instead of trash talking about the guy that has packed his bags, it's much better to ignore the tendency to gossip and refocus with renewed mental effort on the real job. That tells your guys that they'll be treated with respect when they leave. You can't afford to talk bad about this guy, when yesterday you were praising him.
Negative attitudes? Get rid of those guys immediately. Nothing poisons a crew faster than one of those sourpusses moping around, stirring the pot.
Good luck in replacing him. I like to use a third party expert when hiring too.
blue
Jason,Blue's last post to you was right on the money.I understand your position, I had similar experiences in slightly different circumstances ( as a 22 year-old S/Sgt. in my case).Make clear to your people what it is you expect from them, the standard you expect it to be done to, what they get if they achieve that, and what happens if they don't.Train them well. For beginners, break the job down into small tasks that can be easily mastered. As a person's skill level progresses, you can start to weave those tasks together so they start to understand the big picture. Make certain that they understand that their job is absolutely important to you -- if it weren't important, you wouldn't be paying them to be there.Make sure they understand what is to be done, why it is to be done that way, and how to achieve the result you are looking for. Show them once, then watch them once. Correct mistakes, encourage success.Lead by example. That means you have to know your stuff.Enforce your own rules. No exceptions -- so be careful about your rules.Take care of your people. That should be rule #1 in the front of your mind at all times. Make sure that they are safe and have everything that they need to accomplish the job.If your crew is following your instructions, back them up 100 percent no matter what. If the sh!t comes down and your guys were doing as you asked, then the sh!t only comes down on you.Every person has different strengths and weaknesses. Play to their strong suit. Some guys might be fearless at heights but will never understand a framing square. Another guy might be terrified of heights but be really good at layout. Another guy might not be bright enough to read a tape measure but loyal to the core and strong as a bull. Find out what they like and what they want to learn and let them do that.Make sure that the reward of working with you (pay, benefits, education, professional satisfaction) is worth their effort.Treat them with respect. The dumbest SOB on your team will understand respect if it is genuine.Once you have done that, all you owe them the information and opportunity necessary to accomplish an objective, the rest is on them.If someone does not fit in with your program, get rid of that person right away. Do not wait. It is bad for morale, bad for business, and bad for you personally.Once you have trained your crew, listen to their ideas. A good crew will be more than the sum of its parts, and it can take your business farther than you would ever be able to on your own.We will bankrupt ourselves in the vain search for absolute security.
-Dwight David Eisenhower, U.S. general and 34th president (1890-1969)
I was young and lucky enough to be left in charge of a 9 person fire crew when our fearless leader quit unexpectantly. At 21 there was a lot for me to learn about team building, training, and turning around the crew to something that fit my style better. Those first few years were full of good and bad experiences which have helped me through the years working primarily with finish carpenters, but a little of all the trades.
You age shouldn't matter, but it does to an extent. Even though you may know a great deal about a framing topic and framing in general, you'll need to establish credibility in the eyes of those you're training or leading.
In the short run or when working in emergency mode things simply need to get done and people simply need to follow a set of rules because you said so. There is a time and place for this approach, but it's not usually workable over the long term. However, professionals don't like being micro managed or told what to do. When the crap hits the fan things get done, but I'm not seen as the nicest guy to work for.
Another situation is requiring employees to follow preset standards because that's the best way we (as a crew) know how to function. I offered that if anyone has a better way to do something, and can show that it's better, we'll do it that way from then on. It still takes some doing to sort through the differing ideas, but it does produce good results and the crew does have input into the process.
Changing the "culture" of the crew is much harder, but instead of carpenters doing things because they have to, they will do it because that the way our crew wants to function. "Walls (trim, foundations, whatever) are plumb, level and square because our crew kicks #### and builds the best walls faster than any other crew."
The best way I know of to build a first class crew is to model the behavior you want and expect the best from everyone. Have high expectations and share that regularly with the guys. Keep everyone in line when needed and still be able to praise good work the next minute. Make a big deal of positive results. Don't leave good results to chance and manage the process so it works well, but manage only as much as is needed. People need to know that to fit in they need to be top notch, or else they need to move on. This won't produce a country club work environment and you won't be thought of as the nicest guy in town, but your crew will respect you and be proud to be a part of it. If you want a friend, buy a dog.
Nothing happens overnight so be prepared for some hard times, even with a course of action that you know will produce positive changes in the crew. Also keep in mind that what you think will make a positive change, might do just the opposite, so watch out for problems with your plan and make changes as neccessary.
Ask any large group and they'll always say the #1 characturistic of good leaders is their honesty. Don't talk behind someone's back to others, because they'll know you will do that to them. If there is something about someone you don't like, talk to them directly and get it over with and move on with business. Too often people bitch and mone about someone without ever saying anything directly to the person. Don't make up bs stories to anyone, because others know that when they talk with you they might not get the straight story.
You also need to be competent to be taken seriously by others. For a year I worked on a crew with a forman who had less construction experience than my laborer, let alone my assistant carpenter, but he was the bosses brother. He had a great work ethic, likeable personality, was a quick learner and we respected him for putting forth the effort, but he fell flat on his face most times because he didn't know the trade well enough to be motivating. "Lets kick buttt and get the trim stuff around the doors done.," doesn't inspire much confidence since our fearless leader didn't know the term casing. He couldn't accurately order materials correctly because he didn't understand scrap percentages and didn't know how to properly store the various materials involved in large stain-grade trim jobs.
It will become apparent over time how your personality will have an impact on the most productive leadership style. The best type of personalities working for you will also become more clear as the years go by. You'll learn what you don't know now.
Perhaps you'll see the challenges of the trade as a game to be played without personal emotional involvment. Perhaps you'll see the trade as part of who you are as person and become deaply passionate and emotionally involved in how your business functions.
A word of warning about family members on the crew and the defensiveness you've offered for your dad. It's commonly known amoung carpenters that family run businesses aren't fair to non-family members of the crew. It's almost the definition of family businesses. As much as possible everyone needs to be treated the same. I personally don't give a rats asss about who works on a crew or who they're related to, but anyone I'm working with needs to pull their weight or they need to find someone else to hold their hand. Twice I've called the bs because a family member was making our three man work teams look bad. It's hard to build a tight crew if it's "us" vs. "them".
Make sure you're being realistic and network with others running crews to stay in touch with the trends in building. Carpenters move around and get to know a number of contractors and ways of doing things. It's very easy to see a crew's strengths and weaknesses when comparing where you're working now with where you've worked in the past.
Finally, enjoy the experience and go through it as gracefully as possible. Five years from now you'll be looking back at the exact chain of events and your actions that got you there--where ever "there" is for you.
Cheers,
Don
Don, Blue, Cat....thanks.
And believe it or not, I've been doing some of the things you've mentioned. My crew knows I don't have a set method to do something; if your way works better or faster, use it! If not, learn my way.
I've always told my employees to come to me when you have a problem or something is wrong, yet rarely has a crew member stood up and said, "Jason I really don't like doing this, " or even "Hey man this just ain't for me...here's my 2 weeks."
I also don't get it that when I'm on the job all day working with and helping my guys, they beotch about me hounding them, yet when I'm away, they whine about me not being there to help them. Ya can't have it both ways!?!
Speaking of being away, it took me going into business for myself to figure out why my bosses weren't on the job with us 24/7. Therefore, I try to explain to my employees that my "job" isn't just working on the job, that I have other responsibilities as well, most of which is so they can keep working!
Ugh! I ain't sweatin' it; there's no one that's irreplacable (sp?). Thanks again.Jason Pharez Construction
Framing & Exterior Remodeling
One thing I forgot to mention. Is you cant train respect, class and civility into someone. Buck Construction
Artistry In Carpentry
Pittsburgh Pa
Jason,
Follow the wise words of Cat, Blue and Don. They have just exposed you to wisdom that would otherwise take decades to learn on your own. I commend the excellent advice they have offered in this thread. I wish I was lucky enough at your age to have heard this kind of experience speaking.
Good Luck with your crew.
The CM
Paramount Residential Construction Management
Connecticut
Edited 1/13/2006 5:32 pm ET by the cm
Speaking of being away, it took me going into business for myself to figure out why my bosses weren't on the job with us 24/7. Therefore, I try to explain to my employees that my "job" isn't just working on the job, that I have other responsibilities as well, most of which is so they can keep working!
Jason, you are facing the classic dilemma of a young construction bizness owner. If you work full time on the job, you won't have time to do the sales, marketing and administration. If you work two full time jobs to do it all, you'll burn out.
Your best chance at success involves delegation. If you intend to spend any time away from the job, you need to have a Foreman replacing you when you leave. That causes a conflict becauase you probably want/need to be the foreman when your there. That arrangement results in the temp foreman being looked down upon as a straw boss.
Your best bet is to quickly find and designate a "foreman in training".
blue
Blue, the guy I fired was supposed to be my "FIT" until a month or so ago he started displaying this uncooperative behavior. I hired a new guy (new to the crew, not to me) right before Xmas and he may be good leader material, but he talks too much and does too much butt-kissing. The other helper I had was learning at a good pace and could have been a really good helper in a few months, but left to be with his girlfriend in another town.
Personally, I'm looking at the fact I have one good helper who doesn't mind doing whatever...perhaps this will allow us (as a company) to do some of the things too small for three people to do efficiently, and also to do things the third guy either couldn't or wouldn't do. Not to mention I can spend more time teaching this helper.
Like I said before, the loss of this guy ain't hurting me. He only hurt himself and his career.Jason Pharez Construction
Framing & Exterior Remodeling
Jason, the first contractor I worked for was a screamer. If you f'd something up, even if it wasn't a huge deal, your azz was grass and everyone on the crew knew about it. Talk about humiliating. It's a good thing I don't have tissue-paper feelings, or I might have split from the trade a long time ago. I guess what I am saying is, if you are having problems with someone, pull them aside and ask questions. "hey man, what's up? Is everything O.K.?", Want to talk about it?", "whatcan we do to resolve this?"Sometimes guys will have problems at work as a result of events in their personal lives. I know, I've been there. With the shortage of decent help, I think we need to be a little more tolerant. I am not suggesting coddling someone who obviously has no future with the company, just taking care of the employees with potential for advancement. Some guys have the potential to do great things for a company, they just havn't been encouraged enough. Just my humble opinion.
-Greg
Yea he definately needed to be canned. No class act. But I look at that as youthful folly. He will soon learn that the world is a small place. Everyone seems to know each other and rep especially a bad one will travel very fast.
Some guys will learn in time. Others will not. Lets hope this guy will.Buck Construction
Artistry In Carpentry
Pittsburgh Pa
That was a good post.
Thanks Neil.
Something else I forgot to add but I think is important when trying to manage people: Don't try to change them too much. I used to beat my head against the wall trying to turn the whole crew into clones of me. I can't even imagine what I nightmare I would have created if I had succeeded.
Joking aside, to a degree.... guys either fit, or don't fit. For me, a bad attitude is about the only thing I really can't tolerate. I'll take the guy who's dumb as a stump over the 'cowboy carpenter' with a chip on his shoulder any day of the week. I try to get to know a guy a bit over the first week or two. Once I start to get a handle on his personality, I have a better idea of how to use him.... or if I can use him at all for that matter.
I used to have this kid work for me last winter. He was a good guy, a bit slow, a bit lazy and a bit too much of a talker. His GF and my wife were friends so I tried to make it work. Anyway, he wasn't much of a carpenter, but he was ridiculously organized. The type of guy who ironed his work clothes and if you went to his bachelor pad, you'd swear a chick lived there. The first few weeks, he just drove me crazy. I swear he worked harder at not working that I do at working. That just didn't compute in my little pea-brain. I finally realized that he just needed a list of stuff to complete. So I'd give him the thousand little odd jobs that need to get done as we go along. A block here, add two studs here, clean the trailer, straighten out and re-sort the lumber piles, get the forklift set up to get my up to that return, cut me 9000 2x4's at "XX" inches, sweep the second floor so I can snap lines... That type of stuff. If he finished his list, I'd better find another one for him, because he'd pretty much wander around aimlessly and not be able to find anything else to do. He was incapable of seeing the next step or figure out where to just 'jump in'.
It didn't end up working out. But I managed to get my money's worth out of him and not let him drive me totally crazy. But he definitely had to be handled differently than my other guys. In the end, he wanted to get paid like he ran the business instead of being our 'utility man'. So he bowed out to look for better paying work. What he could never see, was that there was better paying work available right where he was.... he just didn't want to do it.View Image
go to work. You think it's a national holiday because the Steelers are going to the superbowl?--------------------------
It's only satisfying if you eat it.
LOL... we're a foot deep in fresh heavy white stuff. Got soaked unloading the lumber truck this morning. That's enough Monday for me. Sportscenter is a callin'.View Image
I'm a foot deep in receipts. I haven't exactly been keeping up with my book work the past few months. The 1099's are coming in, and the accountants are calling.
Of course, I've been online all morning, and listening to sports talk radio.--------------------------
It's only satisfying if you eat it.
All good points. My previous profession was being a commercial maint super. I used to take over problem operations and fix them. My goal was to identify the worst worker and either get him to work at a minimum level or fire him.
Super stars always take care of themselves with an atta boy here and there. Average workers take a certain amount of identifying the need and filling it to get them going. The dud is the one that is consistant work. I like the list idea. DanT
As soon as we get off the roof and set windows and doors and do blocking, etc. I make a list.It keeps me from having to tell the guys each little step that needs to be done. I create the master list and then let them add to it if they see anything.It sounds cheesy, but crossing something off the list is a good motivational tool as well.
Hey it's OK, we still don't have clones yet right? LOL
Like I said the GIQ (guy-in-question) has been away now for over two weeks, and with just me and a good helper, we've been making really good progress. Probably because he's got a good attitude. I've still got to teach him how to cut a straight line, and how you don't need to square up a 2x4 piece of deadwood, but hey, he wants to work! And he has an idea what the next step is in the process.
I'm thinking that if I recruit the right help, and train them individually (i.e., one at a time), and doing so stay small, maybe I won't be babysitting more than I'm working. And maybe I can teach them to train each other.
I know, it's way too grand an idea....but it's showing promise.Jason Pharez Construction
Framing & Exterior Remodeling
Blue Eyed Devil said that he had good results with putting each employee in charge of a specific task. (I'm not the owner, just the lead.) So on our last job, I gave guys more specific tasks that they needed to watch over.
And then on the job we started a couple of days ago, we had a "meeting" before we started plating. I told the guys what they would be in charge of at each stage of the framing process. I told Jason the info for the window and door ROs, put Pete in charge of plumbing and lining, and Chris in charge of all sheathing for the job.
Then I outlined what his tasks would be for plating, wall framing etc. This way there's no jumping around. This is not a new idea, but it's new for us, as we're a pretty new crew.
Anyway, what I've noticed is that when I give a guy a specific responsibility, he takes ownership of it. He realizes that if his "area" looks like poo, it reflects on him. The other three guys on the crew know that if there are shiners, or a missed nailing, it's Chris's fault. And Chris doesn't want that. I still have to check over everything, but it's all looking good so far.
More than any other thing: I've noticed that when the other guys see you putting your heart and soul into building as efficiently and cleanly as possible, they'll follow you.
But get rid of the riff-raff.
Hey Blue, good words! I'm definitely going to try that next time.
In a similar move I tried it with the guy doing housewrap today. I told him "You gotta make sure the plywood nailer does his job; if anything doesn't look/sound/feel right, put some 8's in it." He did take to that...Jason Pharez Construction
Framing & Exterior Remodeling
I really liked Brians post.
What I was going to add was covered when he said he went though about 20 guys to get the few good one's he has.
Don't be married to the first guy you hire, Championship teams are not built by everyone that tries out.
Jason - when it comes to new guys on the job I tell them not to worry, all of us knew nothing when we started. Their job is to be on time and pay attention, (and all that it implies).
When it comes to mistakes I'll tell them we all make them, the goal is to learn from them and make as few as possible.
I'll also give them the old adage " a good carpenter can fix his mistakes, a really good one can do it before anyone else notices" (lol)
I have a feeling you don't really need my advice. I've read this thread and many other posts from you and I'd say you have a great handle on things.
Keep movin' foward. All the best...Buic
after i explain what i want done (which many times includes a line drawing with material notes) ... i ask..... " tell me what i want done" Because i see things so clearly in my mind I use to think I didn't explain things well.... but i think people just don't listen or understand with the thought "i'll figure it out as i go"
i have 2 guys both over 15yrs my senior that work with me everyday... not because of their skill level but because they show up and try... I have one young guy hispanic... who if nothing else always has a clip of nails ready when the gun is low.. or a broom or trash can in hand... he shows up everyday....
showing up is a big deal to me... so many don't
i had a crackhead, best worker i ever had with the highest skill sets... man if he was just clean I'd take him back AGAIN in a second... great kid great worker... just never knew when he'd show up or if he'd been up for days when he did... the real truth is i figured the more i worked him the more drugs he'd ingest... i hated pay'n him knowing it'd be gone in hours and wonder'n if he'd made enough to kill himself... to the point i'd make excuses to pay him half one day half the next...
sorry for the rant
p
What a great thread and great insights into the training and management side of the business.
The guy I 'apprenticed' with (in renovations) didn't care that I did not know much ("Good, fewer bad habits to break", he said). Charlie asked me if I was interested and capable of learning how to work to his high standards (his outfit had a great rep). Once I could prove that I did, I was hired. This is what Eric Paulson looks for.
His crew had a reputation for honesty, competence, quality and the ability to take on challenges - so I worked hard to live up to those standards.
Charlie was a born trainer:
He'd quickly explain the context of a job (where it fit in the big picture), then break it down into component tasks. He'd demonstrate the first few steps in an organized fashion (without interruptions to take cell calls), then let me try my hand, calmly offering suggestions on technique. He'd point out how the materials looked, or how they felt, or what colour or texture they needed to have, what sounds to listen for....
Invariably, he'd leave me on my own for awhile, coming back 10 minutes later as if he intuitively knew I'd then be ready for more help, or to absorb more information. The next visit might be 15 minutes later, the next 30, and so on. This is how 4Lorn1 does it.
Like diesel pig, he never failed to notice a task particularly well done. Accordingly, the crew was open to whatever criticisms and suggestions he had - we knew he respected us, so we respected him.
Charlie's training always left me convinced I could pull off any task he taught me, and that's usually how it panned out. He never freaked whenever I made mistakes, probably because he knew I genuinely wanted to learn. He believed in BUIC's adage that a good carpented fixes his mistakes.
After awhile, he started telling me about customer management, job organization and pricing, etc. Sure felt good when he started leaving me alone at job sites with my own stack of materials plus the customer to deal with. This is the ultimate expression of the 'task ownership' that Bluemoose speaks of.
Charlie knew all along that I was on my way out West. Yet he was happy to put me through what became an 18 month intensive trade and business course. We parted as friends and he will never be forgotten.
As a builder, we have had every responsibility of the home construction trades. We have also owned framing companies & trim companies at the same time. In the larger developments when we're looking to have some major production in the trim end (Hanging doors, casing out windows, base moldings, etc.) I would pair framers with our trimmers on rainy or snowy days to blow through some of the bulk work (casing/base). It was great to have the framer finally see why the windows have to be flush to the sheeting when installed so the jamb sits flush with the sheetrock when ready for trim on the inside. Or when trimming a door out, the wall is thicker than 4 9/16" due to the framer being sloppy nailing the jack/king together or hitting the jacks in with a lump hammer to straighten out the jamb.
I guess what I am saying is sometimes the end product is a great model to show the importance of the framing end. You mentioned the birds mouth cuts. Have the guys look at a sheetrocked cathedral ceiling in a house where the rafters are in & out from the top plate & show them the wavy line from wall to ceiling that the small little detail in the framing end creates. Then show them how nice a clean sharp spackle line looks from clean sharp cut on the rafters. Show the guys cracked drywall above a header where one jack was cut too short & after sheetrock, spackle, paint, etc. The header & load above settled down to find its support & the result is cracked drywall & possible a door that is stuck shut at the top. It's very rare that the framers get to really see why their end is so important. Once they understand they are a major player in a much bigger system, they at the least, can understand what they put the time in for.....hopefully.
About the housewrap being crooked (or upside down many times!! if they are too lazy to start from the other side) - I think this reflects on the concern for the quality of work. That's all about pride in your work. Maybe they need to see it done nice & straight & lapped correctly & taped once to give them a model to shoot for. I would not let that happen twice!! Nothing worse than a customer telling you the house looks terribly crooked every time he pulls up & you having to explain each time until the siding is up that "It's just the Tyvek out of level"
Well, good luck with the men. Take them to the bar every now & then. Form the team tighter each day & teach them to trust you.
Another thing......sometimes there are just some workers, great carpenters or not, that you just can't get along with. Hope you can weed through them fast!!
-Erik
why would tyvek have to be right-side up?
H..........."why would Tyvek have to be right side up? ".........prospective buyer said " wonder what else they didn't care about"
better make sure all of your inked stamps on your studs and plywood stamps line up and that your fire rated drywall is right side up and i believe 6 mil poly is stamped too and tuck-tape has writing on it as well...and osb is smooth side down and that all the pre-printed lines line up with the studs...you gotta keep up appearances right?
Edited 1/22/2006 7:00 pm ET by huddledmass
JasonPharez.....Coffee breaks......talk about what you just did and why and then tell them what you are going to do and how........most of all stay on the job with them.